I’m channeling the bitchy Manwol in Episode 16 who scolded Chansung for his lack of romance.
MW: Gu Chansung, is there another star which we can see now?
CS: I’m not sure. I don’t know that much about astronomy, so I don’t know of any.
Her face fell and she tugged her hand from his clasp.
MW: Hey, you frustrating Harvard person! If you just show me any star and say, “That one! That’s also 1300 years old,” would I then disagree, “No, that’s a 500-year-old star?” I’d be like, “Ohhh, really?” Tsk.
CS: (glum) Should I do that? Let me see. As long as I’m doing this, should I pick out a pretty and sparkly star that Jang Manwol would like?
MW: Whatever, it’s too late.
CS: There really is one. There’s a star that you have waited 1300 years to see. (tapping his chest) Gu Chansung. I told you that I’m a bright star.
MW: (snickering at his cheesiness) Fine, I’m good with you. I don’t need a star that I can only see during the winter since I only have to see you
To be honest, I felt hopeless with the final episode. Although I expected Manwol’s death and knew it to be the “right” outcome, I was still hoping for a happy ending.
Like Manwol who was annoyed with Chansung’s frustratingly unsentimental answer, the ending frustrated me too with its logic and pragmatism. Really now! If the Hong sisters had shown me Manwol encountering Chansung in some Star Trekky environment, do you think I’d vehemently opposed it and say, “No! That’s too bizarre!”
Like Manwol, I’d simply swoon, “Ohhh, really?”
That’s why I’m annoyed with Hong sisters. Hmph!
I wanted the director and the writers to be FLEXIBLE and CREATIVE in salvaging the finale, just like Chansung, who found a way to repair his gaffe and give Manwol the romantic fantasy she wanted.
And that’s why I’ve accepted a challenge from @scholar-gentry. This was his challenge:
@packmule3 If you can somehow convince me that the ending sequence wasn’t CS’ imagination, I’ll give you an imaginary internet cookie.
Although I’m satisfied with the tunnel + bridge ending scene, I’m very aware that there’s a trend among veteran kdrama writers and directors to go down the “Choose Your Own Adventure” route with their finales.
And had the director ended at the Judo Bridge scene, then I would have definitely said that Chansung was going to spend the rest of his life alone. MaGo1 already warned us that he’d pay a terrible price.
But the extra scenes after the Manwol’s goodbye, namely, the Mt Baekdu painting scene in the library and the park scene prompted me to look at the possibility of Chansung and Manwol meeting each other in his lifetime.
But mind you, @scholar-gentry, I’m NOT trying to convince you and the others to believe in my proposition. It’s up to you, the viewers, to make up your own minds.
All I’m going to do is put forth a “reasonable” doubt (as opposed to “imaginary” or “unsupported” doubt) that challenges the accepted general view that the Chansung only fantasized the reunion and that the encounter didn’t happen in reality. I’m going to do this by observing the parameters set by a) the interview of the writers in post-production and b) the kdrama itself.
Now, for those who are going to gnash their teeth and complain that “Gasp! Packmule3 isn’t canon!” all I say that it must suck to have a one-track mind. In this blog, I advocate diversity of ideas as long as the ideas are supported by the plot, characters, or dialogues, and NOT by feelings alone. To impose ONE view about the canon on anybody else is just dumb and controlling.
A. The interview
This is an excerpt of translated interview of the Hong sisters. Credit goes to @melloviciousiu.
Thanks to @sph_7 for bringing this to our attention.
Q: It ended with “almost like” an open ending. There are a lot of viewers who feel sad since it’s not a happy ending. Was it planned from the beginning?
Hong Jung Eun: Hotel del Luna is a place where dead people come. In other words, the goal is to “send them off well.” The most representative ghost in it is Jang Man Wol. Jang Man Wol was seen off by Goo Chan Sung, which was a prerequisite for the establishment of space. I’m sure the viewers expected it. Since Man Wol is a dead person, and Chan-sung is a living person, there is no way we can do it together in this life. It was impossible unless it was forcibly woven. It’s a pleasure, too, for hotel staff to wash away the pain of life and move on to their next life. Man Wol walked to the Judo Bridge in a good way, and Chan Sung thought it would be a two-person ending to send Man Wol in a nice way. Rather than a forced ending, I think this ending is much more in line with Hotel del Luna.
I don’t know about the translation but a “two-person ending” means a break-up, to me. Two people are saying goodbye to each other and ending their relationship. The writer believes that an ending where Manwol and Chansung stay together will look forced.
I understand where this Hong sister is coming from, because I thought their earlier drama, “My Girlfriend is a Gumiho” (2010) had a forced ending.
In MGiaG, the female lead MiHo dies. After her death, the deity Samshin (she’s like a MaGo1) confesses that, although she can’t personally bring Miho back to life, there’ll come a day when the heavens will intervene on Miho’s behalf. The couple just has to wait for the right time.
Sure enough, after months passed, on one nebulous time in the future, a solar eclipse happens. The solar eclipse is important because, I’m quoting Dramabeans here, “The sun and the moon—they can’t exist in the same space. But they break that rule, and come together, in the eclipse.” On that day of the solar eclipse, Miho appears out of the blue and the two lovers are reunited.
Now, do you see what I mean? Although the fans liked the ending, I thought the reappearance was forced and the happy ending felt contrived because the eclipse was introduced into the plot at the last minute. To me, the happy ending was shoehorned in by the writers and they used a “deus ex machina” trope to get the hero and his girl back together again. I think the sisters were avoiding a repeat of that trite ending Hotel del Luna.
To continue with the interview.
Hong Miran: The last picture of Mt Baekdu seen by Goo Chan Sung is a scene that viewers want to see. I wanted to show Goo Chan Sung who stood in front of him (with Jang Man-wol) seeing a fantasy.
Is this a grammar issue? Who does “him” refer to? The tiger? The painting? Didn’t this Hong sister know that in the actual TV ending, only Chansung stood in front of the painting? Manwol wasn’t there.
The director always gets the last call.
If Jang Man Wol and Goo Chan Sung reincarnate according to the “Hotel del Luna” worldview, they hope to meet again and love each other comfortably and happily. We also have a wish. It’s not like “they met”. But in our story, I think it’s a happy ending. She was a person who should have gone, and as Jang Man Wol left, the story ended.
Based on Hong Miran’s answer, I take it that the Hong sisters’ story ended as soon as MW left. For the Hong sisters, MW’s departure constitutes a happy ending because MW achieved her goal of crossing over.
HOWEVER, what happens after THEIR story ends at the tunnel/bridge of the afterlife is open to interpretation. Whether Chansung lives a solitary life forever or meets Manwol in this lifetime is up to the viewers to decide. But the couple are NOT just going to arbitrarily “meet up,” like in the contrived manner of MGiaG. They’re going to reincarnate according to the Hotel del Luna WORLDVIEW – or the internal logic of the story.
That’s how I understand the translated interview, @scholar-gentry. 🙂
To recap: the Hong sisters only insist on Manwol’s death. That’s a foregone conclusion. Their story ends as Manwol departs. But they didn’t comment on the park scene. The sisters only say that if the couple were to reincarnate, it would have to be consistent with the narrative of the story.
B. The Episode 16
Look, all throughout the kdrama, there have been consistently two interpretations of scenes and dialogues. The MaGos, for instance, are notorious for saying one thing and meaning another. So was Captain Firefly when he cursed Manwol. And in Episode 6, Chansung took Manwol to task for not saying what she meant to say, “You talk about killing with no plan of killing. And you talk about not looking for it with a plan to look for it. Your heart is twisted and your words are even more twisted. Is that what happens if you stay as a ghost too long?”
Thus, it wouldn’t surprise me if the director had put in ambiguities in the finale episode, or “Easter eggs” that could be construed as signs for a real reunion. I’ll give three…no, four…hmm…let’s make it five because I’m feeling generous today.
1. The Magos
2. The dream
3. The Baekdu painting and tiger
4. The Heidegger’s book “Being and Time”
5. Manwol
First, the Magos, in particular, MaGo3 and MaGo1.
The romantic MaGo3 is a poor liar. Remember when she’d asked a coin from Yeonwoo to use a payphone when she actually had a cellphone with her? Her real mission then was to create a “loveline” between Yeonwoo and Mira. She gave a crocheted pen to Yeonwoo, telling him NOT to lose the pen or he’d never marry.
Well, as it turned out, he did lose the pen (fortunately) and Mira found it. Mira lied and said that the pen drew a mark on her new skirt. In response, Yeonwoo drew a line on his palm to prove that Mira was lying.
Now, in this final episode, MaGo3 shows up purportedly to look for the pair of scissors. The Wannabe Ghost Bride had given it to him before left, saying thanks for cutting off the relationship.
Their dialogue:
MG3: Because you found something precious of mind, I should pay you back.
CS: Although the gods don’t come when I want them to, it’s very nice of you to reciprocate.
MG3: Shall I sever the connection which is growing painfully worse?
CS: Are we still connected? Can you see it? Are there still ties left to cut?
To me, he’s asking if they’re still connected because he thinks the connection ended when she died in her sleep. BTW, I don’t think most viewers realized that Manwol died in his arms while she slept.
MaGo offers to cut off the connection because the connection still exists. When Chansung evinced surprise, Mago becomes flustered and doesn’t want to give him a straight answer. Her prevarication indicates that yes, the connection exists. Besides, why would she offer to cut it if it was cut already. See that? She’s lousy at lying.
MG3: Well that’s… I cannot answer that.
CS: Forget it then. There’s something I want. I want to travel back in time.
He wants to travel back in time when she was still alive.
MG3: That’s…
CS: I know you can do it. You made me do it when it was needed.
MG3: That’s true, but…
CS: It’s fine even if it’s for a short moment. Help me so that I can see winter with her.
To me, just like MaGo3’s chance encounter with Yeonwoo, MaGo3 is back to her interfering ways. She’s establishing that a loveline between the two still exists. Chansung declines to have it cut.
Thus, unlike the Wannabe Bride in Episode 5, the connection between Manwol and Chansung continue on. According the writer Hong Jung Eun, “Chan Sung thought it would be a two-person ending to send Man Wol in a nice way.” The emphasis here is “thought.”
What actually happens at the tunnel is a continuance. Instead of breaking up, Manwol holds on to him. She says, “But the only thing I could tell you now is only this. We…in the next life should without fail meet again. Hmm?”
He replies with a nod.
Then Manwol thanks him for his dutiful and careful oversight of his responsibility over her send-off. She declares, “Gu Chansung. You looked into me (meaning, he delved into her history and personal life to understand her well), looked after me and protected me. Thank you for that.” He said, “Farewell. Farewell, Jang Manwol-ssi.”
And then they let go of their hands. Then, just like in the Episode 15, there’s a dissonance here between action and words. Yes, they’re letting go. Yes, she’s walking towards death. Yes, he’s sending her off.
But they’ve also made promises to see each other in the next life. Strictly speaking, they’re still holding on to each other. Chansung and Manwol still remember their promise that “Someday, if we cross time in some lifetime together, I’m looking forward to always being together in that lifetime. While the we of that time face each other and dream, and smile in each other’s arms, we will be happy with each other for a very long long time.”
To me, this is the reason Mago1 doesn’t approach Chansung at the library. She practically snubs him. Unlike in her past meetings with him when she was pleased with him, she looks grim.
The obvious interpretation here is that she’s sad to see Chansung paying the price. Back in Episode 12, she sighed because Manwol still didn’t know exactly the price that Chansung would have to pay. She said, “If she knew, she would be sad and terrified.”
But to me, it doesn’t make sense that she ignores him and won’t even extend him a small greeting when after all, she was instrumental in getting the two of them together. My interpretation here is that she’s miffed, like she was miffed in the epilogue when the other sisters didn’t show for the meeting, that the parting wasn’t a clean and final cut.
The MaGos’ reactions are one reason why I think that Chansung and Manwol can reunite in his lifetime. They can still recognize each other because their connection isn’t severed.
Second, the dream.
You must realize by now that dreams have a special place in this kdrama. Dreams serve many purposes.
For instance, we saw Chansung getting to know about Manwol’s dark secrets through the dreams he received after MaGo had placed the blue flowers in his heart.
We also saw the dead communicating with their loved ones through dreams.
In the end, we saw that Chansung and Manwol had been connected 1300 years previously when they both dream of the first meeting as children. The Herbalist MaGo2 was the one who told him that flower in his heart had to reveal one last dream to explain his and Manwol’s fate.
CS: How long do we have?
MG2: Today is the full moon, all the energy from Del Luna is gone. Everything will disappear. Manwol must leave.
CS: I’ve been wanting to ask you — why me? Why did you pick me?
MG2: (pointing at him) I guess that the flower that dreams of the moon hasn’t shown you the last dream yet.
He goes back to the hotel and meets Manwol at the stairs.
MW: Gu Chansung. I keep on getting sleepy. I’m falling asleep. I’m going to fall asleep and leave as if I were dreaming a dream. (And she leans on him.)
CS: I’ll stay by your side when you fall asleep. (and he carries her off to bed.)
Note: this is euphemism. When she says that she’s going to leave as if she was dreaming a dream, she means dying. She’s going to die in her sleep while dreaming.
When he pats her to sleep, he narrates, “I’ve crossed the long passage of time and met you there, embracing the flower that is dreaming of the moon.”
To me, Chansung isn’t really talking to her when he says, “I’ve crossed the long passage of time and met you there, embracing the flower that is dreaming of the moon.” Instead, he’s recounting what happened on that night that she passed away.
Flashback of him and Manwol, as children, 1300 years ago. The young Chansung told the young Manwol, “Your name means full moon. It’s pretty. There’s a place called the Guest House of the Moon.”
He was the flower and she was the moon. But she wasn’t “embracing” him. She was simply holding his hand as she wrote her name on the palm of his hand.
Chansung realizes then that they’ve encountered each other more than once, but in different forms. They met 200 years ago, and then further back in time, 1300 years ago when they were little children.
But yes, I do believe that she dies while sleeping in his arms and dreaming of their first meeting. It’s her ghost that we see at the tunnel.
But to me the most important role of dreams is to create reality.
In Episode 5, for instance, Chansung is being forced into a wedding with the Wannabe Bride Ghost. Dressed as a groom, he psyches himself up for the wedding, “I don’t know what I’m doing. Right. Let’s think of it as a dream. It’s just a meaningless dream. It’ll all disappear when I wake up.”
Chansung is thinking of a way to consume or pass his time. But then, as he walks out of the room, he stops and reassures himself, “I’m just dreaming for a bit.”
When he opens the door, he finds himself transported to a distant past with Manwol dressed like a bride.
He opens his eyes and is confused. His vision of her in the past has blended in with her real presence.
She’s scowling at him. She’s also wearing red so when he dazedly asks her, “Jang Manwol-ssi. Are you getting married?”
He’s actually referring to his dream of her because she was dressed like a bride from the olden days. But the present-day Manwol thinks he’s being stupid. She scolds him, “What are you saying? You’re the one who’s getting married.”
Chansung shrugs off that weird moment as nothing but a dream. “I guess I just had a real dream.”
lol. What is a real dream? Is it a dream that feels real? Or is it a dream that becomes real? I think it’s the latter.
To me, however, this dream = reality sequence is a foreshadowing of their reunion in Episode 16. Just like the title of Heidegger’s book, existence and time are blending in his dreams. That is, his dreams have a curious way of turning into reality.
Now, this bridegroom scene in Episode 5 is actually the second time that Chansung’s dream has become real. Do you remember the first time it happened to Chansung?
It’s that famous leaf scene in Episode 4. Remember?
Manwol sees him sleeping under the tree, and she reaches to pluck a leaf from his shoulder. But he wakes up and sees her.
He must have been confused to see her sitting right in front of him when he opened his eyes.
MW: Why are you smiling?
CS: Did you come here so we could sleep together? Are you happy now that you watched me sleep?
MW: You saw me in your sleep again?
CS: Are you curious? Sit down. I’ll tell you what you were like in my dream.
MW: (coldly) This is what I hate. I should be telling you to shut up, or that I’ll rip your mouth open. But I thought about sitting down next to you. I hate my thought in that split second.
CS: (plucking the leaf from his shoulder) You held out for over 1000 years but you let go for a second. (shows her the leaf) I won a tremendous moment.
MW: Yes, this change means a lot to me, and you’ll have to pay for it.
Later, he wonders whether the leaf came from a dream because, just before he awakened to Manwol reaching out to him, he’d been dreaming of her.
In his dream, Manwol was sleeping under the tree with a leaf slowly drifting down. The leaf should have landed on the sleeping Manwol, instead it landed on his shoulder while he was also sleeping.
He wonders, “Did it come from a dream? That split second from Jang Manwol?”
He’s wondering whether Manwol’s existence and time, and his existence and time are two distinct realities which somehow became meshed together by that leaf in a split-second.
So, that’s the second reason why it’s totally possible for Manwol to appear in front of Chansung at the park. Precedents have already been set in previous episodes for a vision in his dream crossing over into reality.
More importantly, this idea of dreams turning into reality isn’t contrived like solar eclipse in MGiaG. The solar eclipse was a forced ending while Chansung’s “real dreams” have already been incorporated in the narrative…although we didn’t understand the significance till the end.
*******************
I’ll continue with these tomorrow. 🙂
3. The Baekdu painting and tiger; MaGo and the lily
4. The Heidegger’s book “Being and Time”
5. Manwol
I checked this site multiple times since Monday to read you comment about ep 16. I read HS interview and kinda disappointed by their explanation . But this is their story so I thought who am I to think that I know the character and the story more than them. The only one thing that I’m sure is if the actors given space and allowed to interpret the final ep without restrictions on HS intended story (given actors’lives’ as character and feels the emotion), there would be different ways to ended it.
Their interview is what it is. I think it’s normal for them to feel “defensive” because they wanted that crossing-over (i.e., that death) and they probably expected the backlash from viewers because there was no happy ending as such.
Their reaction is natural. It’s “their” baby, and they must have the autonomy (or at least a semblance of it, lol) to end it the way they envisioned.
But I think there’s leeway or wiggle room for interpretation after Manwol’s death. I’ve seen veteran writers do this before. Goblin, The King in Love, Memories of the Alhambra, to name a few.
And I think this one is one of those, too.
That’s why I think they didn’t comment much of the reincarnation part other than to say that a) it has to be according the worldview of HdL and b) there isn’t going to be a forced ending.
I think if this hadn’t been a tvN production, then the Hong sisters would have been forced by the execs to write a happiER ending. But tvN shows have a more laissez affaire approach with the endings.
No. I don’t think the actors have much say about the ending. They don’t even know how the director will edit the scenes and put together the final product.
And IU isn’t the type to insist on a happy ending either. She more open to a sad ending (remember her Moon Scarlet/Lover drama? And the My Ahjussi?) than cutesy actresses like Park Min Young and Park Bo Young. She’s one of those actresses who isn’t afraid to try a non-mainstream project.
I’m sorry I was late in posting. Tuesday, I was braindead when I got home, but by Wednesday, I caught up with my paperwork.
As good a read as this was (I read it thrice and now you’re going to prevent me from having a good night’s rest because I’ll be thinking over this too hard), the biggest surprise for me here had nothing to do with the main argument but that MW died in her sleep. I literally stopped reading and ended up like this meme for a good couple minutes or so: https://media.boingboing.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/bcf.png
It flows with the story and explains why she was sleepy, which would’ve otherwise come off as a nonsequitur or a plot convenience to get them to nap. I’m not 100% sold on it, but it “emotionally” makes sense (or, perhaps a better way to word it is, it makes sense poetically).
Anyways, back to the main program – I can vaguely see where you’re going with the evidence here. It seems like you are building a convincing case but I will have to reserve final judgment until I see everything. 😛
Two things I wanted to note though
First, the “wots a dream?” discussion reminds me of the famous anecdote from the Taoist text Zhangzi, in which the eponymous philosopher Zhuangzi dreams he is a butterfly and wakes up, and it is then asked is whether he is Zhuangzi dreaming he is a butterfly or a butterfly dreaming he is Zhuangzi, with the point here about raising questions about the distinction between dreams and awakedness. In the case of the special dreams in HDL, anyways, the “butterfly dream” equivalent is/was real. As an aside, coincidentally, irl, Mago is originally a Chinese Taoist deity. And, speaking of Mago, good point with her reaction in the penultimate scene. I was not sure what to make of it since MG1 always looked “benevolent” even when she was being a douche like in Ep 14 so the expression seemed strange. Either way, most of us are aware by now that the Magos are a more fickle and conflicting bunch than they initially came off as.
Second, we have also seen reality being created before, albeit not through dreams: first in episode 8 with the lady who created the spirit of the cheerful sweet girl, and MW creating the curse for Mira, and later in episode 14 when MW creates the evil lucky charm through her past self. Then again, fiction as in the books are a sort of dream (imagination and all), and the scene with Mira had a creepy dreamlike quality to it.
Also, random side note: MW and CS dialogue at the start of the episode, with the banter about astronomy and grabbing each other’s cheeks and trolling each other, was adorable. And they did end up living up to their suggestions throughout the series of sleeping together. And people still think they haven’t done enough couple-y things.
As another side note, one other reason why MW and CS having a “forced happy ending” style deal where MW magically comes back out of nowhere wouldn’t work is (as has been pointed out in a number of places) that it would awkwardly toss Bellhop and Intern’s relationship aside. Thus, any way where CS and MW reunite needs to be logical enough within the show’s framework that it would be okay for Bellhop and Intern to not get the same treatment.
TLDR: No imaginary cookie yet, but it could happen. I eagerly await part 2.
Yes, I like where you’re going with this, and with the dreams, as it reflects my own opinion as stated in my Existence and Time post. Man Wol ends. But the internal logic of the entire production is consistent with an ending more like Chang Sun’s dream. It’s like if we take Man Wol’s end at face value, we have to ignore the entire show we’ve just watched, which has established reincarnation, soulmates, expiated sins, magic, dreams coming true, time/being conflation, alternate worlds in time or space, and the entire purpose of the hotel. The more real and consistent ending is actually Chang Sun’s dream world.
Actually, your post on Existence and Time was the impetus. Thanks. 🙂
Why don’t you continue writing from that angle, too? With the same challenge that @scholar-gentry gave me: to prove that she did reincarnate “as is.”
It’s rather fun to twist things around.
Heading to bed now.
Still salty about not giving them many romantic scenes because sad separation awaits. It’s kinda sad because there was a Japanese movie boku no hatsukoi wo kimi ni sasagu that has inevitable sad ending because male lead who suffers from heart disease refused to receive donor from his dead brain friend. Still the male lead asked God to gives him time to make lots of happy memories with his gf before he passed away. He even risked his life before donor was available to had sex with his gf, because he wanted to do what other couple do, to experience and made memories so that when he passed away there won’t be any regret , that he didn’t maximize that short time to has as many memories, knowing his gf will life with that memories until her last breath. I’m quite sure there are some scenes where Jingoo had an urge to express CS love to MW in more touchy ways, but restricted by HS `burden to gives them more happy and romantic scenes`
Interesting that you thought Man Wol died in her dreams. I don’t necessarily agree, but it’s a plausible interpretation.
After episode 15 I believe Man Wol died from the wine Mago gave her. She killed a lot of people singlehandedly, enough to call for deity intervention. Death by poisonous wine was the more humane capital punishment of those days. Man Wol just never admitted that she died, like she doesn’t admit many things. Being a spirit explains the powers she has, where being human it would be a stretch. If humans can gain such powers then Chan Sung has potential to gain powers too. So I believe she was dead all along and her spirit is fueled by the tree that absorbs the moonlight (yin qi). I’m thinking it works like a solar panel, but lunar. And Mago decided she’s not extending her warranty so after this month the lunar panels will seize to function and she must go.
If she died in her sleep, I don’t think Chan Sung can walk out of that room still composed. I would also like to think she finally tapped into his dream, fulfilling her intention from the first time she heard out about his dreams, in that same bed she ordered him to dream for her, to watch his final most significant dream about her.
Rather than going back in time, I believe Chan Sung took her to a future winter. He walked her clockwise around the tree. Although the Mago narration was questionable during his last time travel, he clearly walked counterclockwise to get to the past and clockwise to return to the future.
Not insisting I’m right, just my take on her death.
@Pkm3, I wouldn’t go that far in my own argument, but am enjoying reading yours so far. Looking forward to the rest!
Thanks @packmule3 for all your ideas that resonate with my thoughts.
Man Wol dying in her sleep makes sense. I was wondering how she could walk the bridge over the Sanzu when she had not actually died yet… and why the Hong Sisters insisted that she was dead. So she did die. What a way for Chan Sung to see her off, having her die in his arms. I wonder why it was left so unacknowledged … not a word about her being dead was said.
Her death makes total sense. The energy of the moon was withdrawn. It was what had kept her alive indefinitely. With it gone, she lost energy and fell asleep. That also explains why she kept resting her head on Chan Sung so much towards the end and after.
I found it a fitting parallel, that the first time she heard that he had dreamt of her past, she was so put out and full of vigour that she teleported him to her bed and pushed him down repeatedly, ordering him to sleep and to dream so that she could check if he was entering her memories.
That time neither of them slept and his dreams were never shared by her in sleep.
This time, is the last time that he dreams of her past, and he has to carry her to the bed, and both of them sleep and see his final dream of their shared past together.
= = =
The 3 alternatives to interpret the ending which do not detract from @packmule3’s options either:
1) One way I could look at it, is that even though she comes back to him, she is still a ghost, which of course he can continue to see and meet with. And unlike the MW who was alive with the full moon beaming down who had energy, she retains the tiredness of her last moments. The first thing she does is lay her head on his shoulder.
2) Another possibility that occurred to me but it’s not one that I really believe in, is that Chan Sung is shown to us after his own death, where he joins the Afterlife folks in hanging out at the park. Because show has been about reincarnation, I’d rather that we see them both reincarnated in this world, but the look of that park made it look otherworldly. Therefore I was thinking maybe he too had died by that time.
3) This 3rd point of view is actually the one I feel is most likely (and is right up my sentimental alley Heh!) because of the otherworldly difference in the light and tone of the ending sequence, and because of the stress on dreams, is that CS is able to dream and meet his Afterlife friends in his ‘dream-scape’ where time and existence become one.
The flower that dreams of the moon – So poetic. I never thought of flowers as sentient enough to dream. Anyway, since it is the flower that dreams of the moon that resides in CS’s heart, I am more inclined to think that he dreams of her, and following from what @packmule3 has written, that his dreams make her real.
When she died, CS to himself or in voiceover:
He dreams and meets her across the time and existence of the dream. When she died, it was their shared past that both see.
When they shared the Winter, MW said:
@GB “ I was wondering how she could walk the bridge over the Sanzu when she had not actually died yet…”
Also why I thought she died before bringing CM to the bridge…
Whoops just saw my mistakes. Not just the missing ending code for the italics but the quotation from memory was off. Here’s what I should have written:
Whether it was the Winter past or future is not determined, but it was a time in which they existed together in the same space, even after she was dead. True that MG had engineered this at CS’s request in this world, but the likelihood of it’s being possible in the other world becomes higher as well.
On the snow looking prettier, it’s a direct reminder of them sharing the sunset over the beach scene. The view improved for her because she saw it with CS. Like that time at their fake hotel beach, she was also sad.
Come to think of it, because of MW’s overall low energy at the end, the ending felt sad. They were peaceful and accepting, maybe even contented after a fashion, but the ending was sad. The ending could have been different but this is the ending the Hong Sisters chose. Not bad, but sad.
@sph_7
Your idea is novel, that she’d been dead all along. However show failed to acknowledge this plainly, so it’s up to us to guess.
However, one thing that suggests she was still alive was that she was visible for great lengths of time, and ate differently from ghosts ie the food she ate actually got consumed whereas other ghosts eating did not make the food disappear.
Still your idea as to how she could have her powers as a living human being is interesting. Maybe the bitter wine by tying her up with her moon tree and the hotel also gave her powers to go with the job.
👏 👏 👏
Yes! Thank you! The voiceovers!
After she died, the voiceovers changed.
He was suddenly talking to “her” but NOT the Manwol who was right beside him. Lol. I know there’s a literary term for this. Maybe @barbrey knows bec I’m not a literature major. Is it “apostrophe”? It’s like “O Romeo Romeo? Wherefore art thou Romeo?”
He was talking to her like she’d come back and he was recounting what had happened while she was gone.
The writer for “The King in Love” did this and I said the same thing. When you look back at the whole kdrama, you realize that it was actually a retelling of a love story. The voiceovers were consistent. He was telling his story of how he had stayed devoted to her for all his life. And he was addressing just one particular person the whole time. I said viewers wouldn’t get it because they normally wouldn’t remember what was said in the beginning. But 😂 I did. The story looped back to the beginning.
The writer of the “King in Love” is a veteran kdrama writer, Song Ji-na. I said she’s very cerebral and literary. If we had been reading the kdrama as a novel, instead of watching it, her plot device would easily be understandable. Any reader would recognize it as a memoirs — with a dedication to a loved one. And the voiceovers would be the narrator or persona speaking to the loved one.
Now, I suspect that’s the effect the Hong sisters are copying here with the voiceovers. It’s Changsung speaking to a Manwol who’s come back to him after a certain amount of time has passed. And it CANNOT be in another lifetime because he’s still reading the Heidegger book. It must be THIS lifetime.
Remember? If he’s in another lifetime, we should be seeing his mirror-image. 😂 Meaning, he will NOT be reading Heidegger. He’ll be reading manga or cartoons or something light. It’s just like how Mira still acts like a princess but she sponges off Sanchez, in her reincarnated self. The reincarnation brings about the reverse of the original self.
So, Chansung is STILL Chansung bec he’s still reading the same book. 😄
See that?
As for the reincarnated hotel colleagues, I think they’re just in his dreams. They aren’t physically real. Only Manwol becomes physically real and returns from his dream like that leaf we talked about😂 because their connection never ended. That’s why MaGo3’s last minute intervention was critical. He realized that the link wasn’t severed. He thought it was automatically gone bec she died.
But dying in his arms made sense, right? I didn’t catch it at first either because I was getting ready for the 4-tissues teary goodbye. But when she went off into tunnel without dying, I said heeeyyyy wait a second. She cheated!
I rewound the scene to see if I missed her death and I figured it was when she started talking about becoming sleepy.
Death = one long sleep.
Hey! The more alternative interpretations of the last scene the better. 😂 The rebel in me resists when I’m told there’s only one way of viewing the end. The Hong sisters and the director have been consistent in trolling the viewers with double meanings throughout the series, so why not have a multi-layered ending too? It’s the way to go.
It was
Yes. This is the ending they chose for Manwol and overall it made sense. As I said in my Ep 15 quick takes, that statement of CS — the part where he said that he didn’t want her to spend a meaningless life with the 100th manager — made it clear to me that there was no other resolution or “happy” ending with wedding and babies here.
Had she drunk that witches’ brew 🧙♀️ then it would mean that CS would die first and that she’d never get out of Hotel del Luna until another CS’ reappearance.
Yes. Whether the Winter was past or future became immaterial, irrelevant. That is part of Heidegger’s concept of time. One of Heidegger’s big complaint about the Western concept of time is the segmentation: past and present and future.
He was actually advocating the “oriental” approach to time where once a person reaches enlightenment, the distinction between past, present and future no longer exists. The person becomes time itself.
But I’m getting ahead of myself here… I’ll explain in my next post or whenever I get to discuss point 4.
I still have to write about the Baekdu painting. If you notice, that’s actually the FIRST instance in the story when a dream crossed over to reality. The CEO was saying that he kept DREAMING of this tiger. Then the tiger roared and BOOM! The glass shattered.
The glass shattering was real. The CEO and CS felt the real physical effects. But the tiger wasn’t real, right? It was just a shadow, a spirit slinking in the background.
Back then, my simple reaction was “oooh! A poltergeist!” 😂
Hmmm… she wasn’t dead yet when she brought Capt. She didn’t receive her lily. 🙂
She was only asked by MaGo1 to bring the firefly to the bridge and to let him go by himself from there. Since she was following MaGo’s order she was given a “temporary visa” to step on the bridge. She couldn’t overstay her visa though. She’d start losing her memories if she did.
But that Capt being the Capt, he tried to charm her one last time to join him in crossing over. (I was shaking my head at that scene.)
Some good discussion all.
@packmule3 I wouldn’t say reincarnation always brings about a reverse self in HDL setting, or at least a completely reverse self – CS from 1300 years ago, though the son of a merchant and not a thief, still seems to have the similar kind and thoughtful personality. Mira and YW case could be interpreted as Mira only having just purified most of her bad karma, and YW being in a respectable position due to good karma (if we are going by a more traditional Buddhist interpretation). That said, reincarnation in HDL setting implies some changes in personality, background, and interests at least. Thus, the MW and CS we see in the last scene act too similar to the MW and CS we see in most of the show so though it doesn’t confirm it on that argument alone per se, it does lend credence to the idea that they are still the same MW and CS and not different reincarnationsa (whether this is CS imagination or reality).
Anyways merging of past, present, and future does seem to have an Eastern philosophy flair to it, so I look forward to that too.
You’re right. I should have been more precise. The character (or personality) stays intact. The virtues transfer over; the vices shouldn’t really carry on because that would mean the person didn’t learn from past mistakes.
But the “incidentals” like fortune, education, occupation, wouldn’t carry over as per Mira’s and Yeonwoo’s examples. I don’t think the book “Being and Time,” would carry over.
Plus it has to be Chansung’s current lifetime — THIS lifetime — bec of the lily. 😂 Why do you suppose MaGo didn’t want to sell him another lily and told him he already got his? He isn’t dead, right?
😈😈
Now, I’m counter-challenging you.
Think of a reason(s) that:
a) Chansung received his lily on his birthday,
b) MaGo1 refused to give him another lily, and
c) the ending scene showed a dead student being offered a lily. 😂 Heyyyy, that wasn’t random.
Yes, it’s apostrophe. I dont remember it or any voice overs for that matter. Brain is a sieve.
Yes re past present future in Heidigger as inseparable. That’s why it’s so important CS does not change his memories or current abilities if he wants to live the future he projects from them.
That book was a gift in a way from his mother. I still wonder why the HS chose his mother to give it to him. Thinking in terms of beginnings and endings, birth and death – and rebirth.
@packmule3 That lily at the beginning almost slipped my mind there and does explain the lily again at the penultimate scend. I’d thought that the lily in the Ep 1 scene was meant for CS father and not CS and was a convenient plot device to connect CS to the flowers on the tree.
I don’t recall in detail when MG said she already gave him a lily though (I might be confusing it with when one of the MGs was talking to him about the flower from the hotel’s tree), but I suppose if lilies are meant for the dead, and CS probably isn’t dead, then that means he’s special if he’s received one before he died – beyond the cycle of life and death.
Also, on a completely different tangent, on the issue of dreams and life and death, I am reminded of the phrase “life is like a dream” and how it was given a twist in my favorite Asian ghost/love story (from Pu Songling’s collection of stories from the 17th century). To spoil the plot, two literature nerds meet, one a handsome scholar and the other a cute ghost girl. After a chaste romance and some challenges to their relationship, he helps her become alive again; at the end of the story, she remarks: “Those twenty years [when I was dead] were like a dream.” For Pu Songling, just like life (ie reality), death is but a dream as well.
(And, actually, if I’m going to go on a tangent to that tangent, MW and CS’ love story could be see as a modern take on the old Asian stories about a handsome young scholar (Harvard, duh) meeting, helping, and falling in love with a mysterious spirit of a beautiful woman. Said stories sometimes ended sadly, happily, or bittersweetly. The ones that happily like the one above required some sort of sacrifice or special power or divine intervention or something to happen.)
@GB We also saw Ms. Choi and Hyun Jong acting very “alive”. Be visible when they want, lift things, and eat. HJ picked up Yuna in front of her classmates, showed up in her pictures, Ms Choi stood outside the pharmacy visible often that the lady recognized her. They all had pizza at Sanchez’ pizzeria. I think a lot of what she could do comes from her years of building up powers. Watching a lot of EA ghost dramas so that’s what I’m used to seeing — the older the ghost the more they can disguise as living.
@The Scholar-Gentry – Ah ha! Visually they are totally Nie Xiao Qian and Ning Cai Chen (by Pu Songling). Especially how CS runs frantically in the beginning.
Ep 4 at 20:20 mark. He was on subway going home. He dreamt of Yeonwoo being captured and rescued by the Captain. MW shouted Yeonwoo’s name.
He closed his eyes again for a second while he massaged his neck. When he opened them, MG1 was there. He offered to buy a flower. “Please give me one.” MG1 said, “No need. I already gave you yours.”
So, the lily offered on his birthday because he did a good deed. The dad shooed MG1 away. You’re right: it should have been the dad’s flowers because he was the one who almost died that night, on CS’s birthday.
Nevertheless MG1 intended the lily for CS because she was pleased with him. MG1 said, “You’re suffering so much in your youth bec you’ll gain many great blessings in the future.”
😂
Suffering for the rest of his life because his Manwol died when he was 30, doesn’t constitute “many great blessings in the FUTURE.”
So go ahead and try to connect the two… three scenes with the lily.
In Ep 16, note that the young student was shaking her head to refuse the lily that MG1 was offering to her. Kinda like the dad refusing for CS.
Any theory will do. 😂 We can bounce some ideas off each other.
Yes. Agree with you on the life = death. That’s one theme the Hong sisters tried to explore in Master’s Sun and Hwayugi. But Hwayugi was just all-over-the-place and Master’s Sun became too campy for me. It was good until they got an extension for the series. The spacing/timing was off after that because they added fillers.
Gotta run now.
I meant I reckon she should be dead to even reach that bridge. Not having a lily just means she’s not expected to reincarnate yet.
@packmule3 — No comment on the dreaming theory (I need to think through what you’re trying to explain, lol)
1) I also think Chan Sung got a lily for this lifetime. He wasn’t born with a good life (look at his parents!). I think she decided she will put him through hell to help Man Wol and gave him a better rest-of-this-life to make up for it.
2) His next lily will be given when he’s dead, like all the other deceased.
3) I thought that scene just shows Chan Sung still having the ability to see ghosts and on top of that to show Mago ignoring him now that he’s completed his job and is just a useless ordinary person to them. Magos are petty as Man Wol said.
@packmule3 Good point with the blessings for the future line by MG. We could chalk it up to MG being MG (it wouldn’t be the first time MG is acting like a douche), but if it does hold deeper significance, I suppose it begs the question of what blessings MG is really talking about. Unless if she was just saying knowledge and authentic life experiences are blessings, but that sounds like some faux inspirational quote drivel on Facebook aimed at impressionable ambitious Type A millennials.
On the life = death thing, and on yet another classical Asian literature tangent, that was an argument some of these Asian writers writing in the “stories of the weird” genre were trying to make, or at least those like Pu Songling who were more on the literary side of things. Blurring the line between life and death, real and imaginary, ordinary and fantastical / supernatural, and often doing so with an ambiguous and trolling use of language like in HDL. An excerpt from Pu Songling’s preface, written as a poem, says:
Fastidious readers of my book
May mock me,
Just as the tale of Five-Fathers Crossroad
May be baseless.
But who can tell?
The tale of Three-Lives Rock
May contain
Food for enlightenment
My wild words
Should not be put aside
Because of the man
Who utters them.
Classical Chinese allusions in the above aside (I’m unfortunately not that educated to know them), it sounds Mago-esque to me.
@sph_7: Good call with Nie Xiaoqian and Ning Caichen. I like the Liansuo/Locket story as mentioned above much more, but the one with Nie and Ning is good too (and prob the most popular Pu Songling story anyways besides Painted Skin). The parallels with HDL are definitely there. Ning is brave in his own way, but also not quite capable with ghosts. And, like CS, it is his steadfast, strict virtue that saves him and his woman – who is “bad” to put it very vaguely from trouble.
I also agree with MW that MG is petty. MG1 is hypocritically benevolent and vague, MG3 is a troll who likes making weird shit happen, MG4 is while lawful too eager to enforce (like almost killing intern that one time), MG5 I dunno much about but $$$ can’t be that nice, and MG6 is intentionally annoying. Only MG2 seems alright – even if she’s vague when giving information it isn’t misleading and is helpful and relevant, and personality wise she seems stable and level headed. Plus she’s a healer.
@sph, just to add to your reasons, I thought it was also showing there still was a real need for a Hotel del Luna rest stop for reluctant ghosts and their unfinished business.
Re the Lily – I’m getting confused. I thought when Ma go said she already gave CS his flower she meant the moonflower, not the lily. Instead of a Lily that is a ticket to the afterlife, the moon flower was CS ticket to the limbo life between life and death, and his connection to the Queen of that limbo, MW.
The H S do sometimes mix their symbols, maybe I’m wrong?
@packmule3
With regards to my Alternative 1 and 3 ending, I was thinking of it as being in his current lifetime where he is able to intersect with MW’s Afterlife. Therefore I felt his not being a mirror-image was right.
LOL, it took me longer than immediately getting there… I was mulling it over and began to wonder why she was walking the bridge without dying. I was about to comment on that… wondering what made her so special!! I’m slow, I am.
Ah yes, the Tiger! Thanks for reminding me. It was something that supports the idea of Alternative 3.
I forgot to mention that remembering the first ghost, the Blind Ghost who had a connection to a living CS and scared him silly the first 2 Episodes, got me thinking of Alternative 1. Since MW had the biggest connection to CS, she’d just be around him wherever he was and he’d not really be able to avoid her, even if he’d wanted to. Blind Ghost popped up anywhere day or night next to him. So even in New York (if that was supposed to be a New York park where he sat), he’d see her clear as day.
@sph_7
True, however most times they prefer to hang out at night and even 70 year old ghost HJ could only manage it for short periods. In any case, either earlier or later, she would have had to have died. The scene closest to showing this, was her being sleepy and lying still in her bed.
I just feel that dying in his arms is too cruel to Chan Sung. Imagine her dying in his arm once, then he has to send her off later that night himself. 😭 Nobody should have to go through that in the name of love.
C. Live student, not dead, being offered a lily is the new (reflected) CS for the new owner of the Hotel Blue Moon. Remember, CS was offered a lily when he was alive.
A, if you are talking episode 1, the child CS did not take the lily. Just like the female student at the end of episode 16.
B. The flower here could be the moon flower Mago 1 implanted in his chest.
I always thought of her as half dead, arrested in limbo. There’s even a gothic trope character called Life-in-Death. That to me was Man Weol so she didn’t need to physically die, she just needed to complete the journey. She could operate as a fully living person or a fully dead ghost or something in between. I hate the idea she died in CS’s arms while sleeping, then he had to see her off. I do think the authors would be more pointed about this if it were the case. Also, she didn’t have to die physically in the living world to be in no danger of never coming back when she and CM went on their journey across the bridge. So it never occurred to me she’d have a physical body in a coffin somewhere; her sword in the tree was metaphorically the same thing.
@Barbrey
“Re the Lily – I’m getting confused. I thought when Ma go said she already gave CS his flower she meant the moonflower, not the lily. Instead of a Lily that is a ticket to the afterlife, the moon flower was CS ticket to the limbo life between life and death, and his connection to the Queen of that limbo, MW.
The H S do sometimes mix their symbols, maybe I’m wrong?”
Was thinking of the same thing as I was reading the lily discussions. I think I need to re-watch that part. 😉
The strongest evidence for MW being alive is Mago 1’s statement MW’s clock had stopped. 16 episodes later we’re going to take a Mago 1 statement at face value? An alternate perspective would be that one’s clock starts at birth (or conception, take your pick) and it STOPS at one’s death. I would suggest that given our experience with Mago 1, an alternate read do “stopped clock” is at least as credible as the face value read.
As opposed to the hotel staff who were basically nice people with a simple grudge, MW was an entirely different creature. Look at how powerful the room 13 ghost became in a short time – because of the killing anger that possessed it. Imagine MW as a spirit filled with ever so much more killing anger growing her power for 1300 or so years. I personally find the story holding together better for the most part if MW was a spirit, not a living person.
Of course, having said all that, the idea/scene of MW dying in CS’s embrace while dreaming of their fateful first encounter is ever so much more poetic!
For me the most interesting feature of this drama was how FAR one can go with defensible alternate interpretations of characters and events.
An additional challenge question:
Why was MW so special?
As far as I know neither the drama nor the HS provided an answer, so … theorize away!
Hmm…Hong Sisters in their recent interview said this
“Hong Jung Eun commented, “The goal of Del Luna is to be a space where ghosts can rest before they are sent off to the afterlife. Since the initial creation of this hotel, the end was always meant to be Jang Man Wol’s departure, in which she is seen off by Goo Chan Sung. Since their chemistry was so good, many viewers must have hoped they would end up together, but knew in their hearts that Jang Man Wol would leave. Since Jang Man Wol is dead and Goo Chan Sung is alive, it was impossible for them to be together in that lifetime, unless unnecessarily forced.””
(https://www.soompi.com/article/1350004wpp/hotel-del-luna-writers-share-thoughts-on-dramas-conclusion-possibility-of-season-2-and-more)
So they had penned MW as “dead”. In which case she didn’t need to die in CS’s arms because she was already dead? What was she then? Like all the other spectral staff of HDL?
I love all the theories and speculation. So much creativity. So many ways to interpret the end.
The reason I became certain that MW died in her sleep is because CS was surprised that Ma Go offered to cut their connection. If MW had merely been sleeping, CS would have had no doubts that their connection still existed.
He asked as if he thought the break had already taken place. That must have been because something had changed. MW must have died.
He had fallen asleep with her and woken up and I’d have expected that he’d wake her up to join him in her last moments, but he must have found that she was already dead. If not, he might have remained longer in the room. So he left her side and MG was there to meet him.
@sph_7 Yes, it was a very painful thing for CS … this was likely the true price that MG meant when he said that … “If she (Man Wol) knew, she would be sad and terrified.” Not only was he to be separated from her by death, not only was he to see her off at the tunnel, but he was also to be with her at her dying.
But Chan Sung managed to get out of the separation from MW part … he couldn’t get MG to answer his questions clearly (just as she refused to answer MW’s questions on the firefly) so he decided that there must be a connection and he’d keep it, the same way he’d keep his ability to see ghosts. Then I agree with @packmule3 that MG was upset that he’d not taken the chance to break off entirely from MW and the Afterlife. Since humans were always given a choice, he thumbed his nose at the Ma Gos and chose his own future.
@Flying Tool That’s interesting about the meaning of receiving the lily also being ambiguous, how the meaning might change with whom it is given to. We have not been shown that a lily is a mark of a new hotel manager being chosen, however the questions remain:
– If it was given to a living person, did it mean he would die?
– If it was given to a ghost did it mean ghost would be reincarnated to a better state in a new life?
– If the offer of the lily was refused, did it mean that death would be fore-stalled. (I don’t think any ghosts refused a lily).
@Barbrey Hmmm, the ticket to limbo moon flower. It does rather fit in with what I was saying about how the flower that dreams of the moon, enables him to straddle the reality of the dream and his own reality. He does end up in a sort of limbo, where, whenever he dreams, he’s somewhere between life and the Afterlife, and as he dreams (or the flower dreams of the moon) MW can pop-by to hangout with him.
@Flying Tool, we’d asked this before. I must say I did expect to get an answer so that’s disappointing. Also, we were led to believe at the beginning she was still huma n.
@nrlee, Life in Death. She’s like a vampire that doesn’t suck blood. Or see above. They don’t answer this question in any way.
I’m seeing more and more gaps and unanswered questions remaining in the narrative as we continue to probe the story, and fun as this might be, it’s also making me needlessly frustrated with the authors for not having a clearer vision of their fundamentals and conveying it to us.
On another note: have any of you tried the Turkish drama Erkenci Kus? Early Bird. Just finished w watching episode 51 the finale after taking a long break from it. Subtitles are crap but it’s a great ensemble rom com, very funny sometimes, and the main couple is likely the most beautiful, charismatic (but kooky) couple I’ve ever seen. Can Yaman and Demet. Check it out for something different that will leave you smiling.
@nrllee — oh right! That was in the interview.
I do think she’s like the other staff but had more powers to sustain a living being disguise. Probably with a recharge of energy every time she is standing by the tree (like lunar panels with NFC?).
@Flying Tool — Why was MW special?
Maybe her name is perfect to be owner of the Moon Inn? Just kidding 🤣
I think she killed so many people that she would be punished a different way. I remember according to Korean lore, becoming Death/GR is a form of punishment. Goblin and Along With The Gods had that premise and when they remember their sin and repent they can reincarnate. The Innkeeper is like another position that serves the death realm similar to GR so may be the same deal. Man Wol held a strong grudge that will probably make her another vengeful spirit like Room 13 as soon as she dies. Mago 4 would have no problem waiting for her to die and extinguish her immediately. Mago 1 though doesn’t like to extinguish souls. She’d rather find a complex way to prevent her from becoming a vengeful spirit. She killed and imprisoned her in one step, halting her transformation to a vengeful spirit, taking her weapon (full of bloody aura) and froze her time. That’s what I believe.
These discussions keep getting more and more convoluted, lol. There’s a reason I never went into Philosophy and stuck with History.
On the topic of whether MW is truly alive and her nature, it’s possible MW saying she is neither dead or alive is a case of unreliable narrator/character, though presumably unintentionally on her part. I think we can establish a few certainties:
1. She must have died by the time she leaves for the tunnel, whether it was 1300 years ago when the tree swallowed up her sword or when she falls asleep in CS arms.
2. We have not seen a living person enter the tunnel other than CS. When he did, he became disoriented. When MW enters the tunnel, she appears to be calm. On the other hand, IF she was alive when she helped CM to the bridge, then she and CS would be the only two living people who made it back and forth.
3. She cannot have died in between when she first became the hotel owner and before the story starts. It would not fit with the meta narrative or whatever, as it would have probably been brought up as a plot point somewhere.
4. She has abilities like ghosts such as not being seen by the living. If she is alive, no other living being has these abilities.
@GB Assuming the translation is good, then the key word here for the argument that MW died in her sleep is *still*. You guys have convinced me on a subjective level, though I think on an objective level it is still a little ambiguous as we never get a definite answer. It really is cruel then for CS, as @sph_7 says. The guy must have the strongest heart out there to bear through all that.
The only other way I could see this going is if CS assumed for whatever reason that seeing that last dream would end their special karmic connection (or whatever you want to call it), but I guess that’s the weaker argument.
That does beg a few questions though.
1. Even if she turned into a ghost, based on the story’s logic, she should be hanging around close to where her body is. So even if she’s dead, she wouldn’t be that far from CS.
2. Thus, why would he need to wander around the hallway by himself? Her ghost could’ve just followed him (unless he wanted to give her some time to process it).
3. When he was with her to see winter, that meant she was a ghost then. However, she is wearing the same clothes as when she fell asleep, but then wears different clothes when she leaves. We’ve seen ghosts change clothes, but I thought that was an interesting detail.
@Flying Tool: to expand on sph_7’s point, there are stories in East Asian mythology about powerful mortals being chosen by heaven to become one of their officials or bureaucrats. Usually said mortals are virtuous in some sort of way, and can have military or administrative abilities, so if we interpret MW as a modern take on this trope (which I do), she’s a bit different in that she’s not particularly virtuous, but that could be that MG sees potential in her as a good hotel owner. For instance, MG allowed MW to live when she almost died as a child – perhaps this shows that she sees MW perseverance and endurance as useful, and that she has a lot of power and ability that could be used to manage the hotel and help its ghostly clients.
Remember we’re reading a translation so the context could have been lost in translation.
Manwol is “dead”. All throughout the story she was a living, breathing, eating person who couldn’t die. That’s why CS was intent on feeding her. In Episode 1, SHE herself said that humans have to eat or they die. Lol. To say that she’s suddenly dead would be laughable like Michaelangelo suddenly saying that he meant Adam to be female in his iconic painting, “The Creation of Adam.”
I would take this statement made by the writer in context. She would be like someone already exasperated with people (the critics and the fangirls!) insisting on the lovey-dovey moments. Instead of explaining in details, she would just go for the crucial detail that people seem to be missing. Deep down this is what she wanted to say:
….I know that the chemistry was soooo good that many viewers wanted to then end up together with a wedding, honeymoon and two kids. But if the viewers were being honest with themselves then they knew… KNEW! in their hearts that MW must leave. Come on now, people!!! Think!! How could it be possible for them to be together when she’s dead…I mean, she’s dying… no, she’s been wanting to die… no, let’s be precise here, she’s 1000 years, whoops! 1333 years old in search of death, and he’s still alive? Duh!
😈
As I said before, when reading the writer’s post-production interview, you have to take into consideration, his/her state of mind. I’ve been in these situations myself when I find both the interviewer to be deliberately obtuse and his questions so ridiculously biased that I avoid irony, sarcasm or hyperbole because I expect that he’ll either miss the point given his wit or misconstrue them anyway given his agenda. I limit myself to the most DIRECT answer so my exasperation and frustration don’t come through.
And that’s how I interpreted the Hong sister’s answer. She couldn’t understand why people weren’t getting that a full-blown passionate love affair wasn’t feasible.
You’re on point. 👍
If you base this on the dialogue with Mago3 that’s the only logical choice.
1. She died in his arms.
2. He went to greet MaGo3.
3. MaGo3 was surprised (lol. She wasn’t really. Or else HOW was she going to get the scissors? Ransack the whole place?) he was still there since she died already.
4. He said “Although the gods don’t come when I want them to…” I took this to mean that he WOULD have wanted their presence at the time of Manwol’s death, too, but he understood that they couldn’t.
5. He was surprised the link continued after death. He must have been also surprised it was still there because based on his experience, there was a red string that floated between the dead and the live person. 😂😂 He was probably expecting to see a red string!! That’s why he asked MaGo3 if she could SEE it.
“Can you see it?” He was referring to a red string which needed a special pair of scissors to cut.
5. MaGo3 became evasive and prevaricated. She was lying. The connection existed even after death.
6. That’s all he really needed to know.
7. Traveling back in time = briefly turning back time to when MG was still alive so they could spend winter together. Although he couldn’t show her the winter star, he was going to be MORE romantic and show her snow. The “first snow fall” — and kdrama veterans like us know about the meaning of first snow, right? It means the couple will last forever. 😍😂
And yes, that’s why MG1 was upset that she didn’t even bother to talk to him. That was quite telling when she didn’t even bother to say hi to him. And he ignored her, too.
He chose his own destiny whether or not the MG1 approved.
And THAT ties in nicely with the walking-around-the-tree business. Remember? I said he made a mistake. He should have gone the other direction.
Ahhhh! That’s why the director made a point on focusing on his shoes. Both going and returning. His steps were symbolic.
He finally figured out that he was going to walk his path. He’d only seek information from the gods, but he was going to make his OWN decisions given the info he had. And he wouldn’t live his life being tied or concerned with the petty “fate-based” interference of the gods. He was his own man… which is another point of the Heidegger work. It said to stop listening to the chatters of other people (or the MaGos) and to live AUTHENTICALLY.
Lol. I’ve to discuss that book.
As to whether Man Wol was dead or alive, I’ll take her word for it when she was asked by CS.
MW: I’m not dead. I still haven’t died. I’m just here.
CS: What do you mean “still”? Do you mean you might die one day?
I want to compare her to a long-time comatose patient hooked on a breathing machine– not officially declared dead but can’t stay breathing if not for the help of the ventilator. In MW’c case, her ventilator is the moon tree. As long as she’s tied to it, she has the energy to continue breathing.
AT THE GARDEN:
MaGo1: Starting from the next full moon, the energy of the moon will be withdrawn from this place. Your Guest House of the Moon will only exist up until the next full moon. (implied statement: “And so are you, Man Wol.”)
Could that be why she’s feeling sleepy because her energy is finally draining?
AT THE HERBAL HOUSE:
CS: How much time do we have left?
MaGo2: Today, around the time of a full moon, all the energy from the hotel will be collected. Everything will disappear. And Jang Man Wol must “leave”.
We can interpret “leave” here in two ways.
leave = die/pass away
leave = go (by foot or by limousine)
I’ll take the latter. I think she didn’t necessarily have to die physically first before she can pass through that tunnel. If she did, they should at least show one “dead body of MW in her bedroom” and another “ghost form” beside CS at the platform.
Death is sure to come of course. It’s just a matter of energy left. But since all the energy of the moon tree is collected and I believe is being transferred to the new guest house, MW had options:
1. Wait for the Grim Reaper. He’s sure to appear when your physical body finally took its last breath.
2. Take your last breath but stay on earth as a wandering ghost.
3. Walk that tunnel with the little energy that you got, die on your way, have your lily, then wait to be reincarnated so you could spend another lifetime with CS in the future.
—
@GB, “The reason I became certain that MW died in her sleep is because CS was surprised that Ma Go offered to cut their connection. If MW had merely been sleeping, CS would have had no doubts that their connection still existed.
CS: Are we still connected? Can you see it? Are there still ties left to cut?
He asked as if he thought the break had already taken place. That must have been because something had changed. MW must have died.”
—
I think the reason why CS was surprised was because he had fully let go of MW. He believed there’s no more resistance on either party and both had resolved to just accept the final parting. He has overcome his greed to keep her by his side. No matter how tempted, he didn’t eat or drink from 200 years ago even if that meant spending more moments with her. He didn’t even influenced MW to drink the wine that could keep her bound to the Hotel Del Luna.
Going back to Episode 5, the Ghost Bride’s death didn’t ensure “cut tie”. She’s already dead but the red tie was cut only when she decided to let go and leave peacefully so her boyfriend could recover from coma.
As for the other parts, I yet have to think about them. My brain can only process this much at this hour. 🙃😆
@packmule3 You’ve reminded me that I wanted to mention the tropes. Instead of the Amnesia and Time Jump tropes, we got the First Snow and the Childhood Connection ones. LOL. We were saying that there should be at least 2 more.
The interesting discussion about whether Man Wol is alive or dead
@Storm Moon Thanks for the quote… I knew that somewhere or other she said that she had not died .. she was just there or something like that.
More… this time from Episode 3 – Mago said that when the manager dies he leaves.
So from the mouth of Ma Go, MW was still alive. And MW confirmed that as @Storm Moon has shown.
When MW says that she died, I feel that she’s just fed up with the unchanging state of her being, that she’s stuck as if dead and not fully alive. Also, she’s referring to her tree that on the outside looks dead and ready to be chopped and burned.
I was toying around with the idea of the tree doing the ‘dead pose’ so that MW could look alive LOL (like the Dorian Grey thing… he looked always young and handsome because his portrait took on all his evil and looked more and more horrible). Anyway, I was wrong.
MW herself also refers to the tree being ugly and scolds CS for saving it, saying he’d done an unnecessary thing.
So the tree being alive means MW is alive. Within it, was always the potential to be enlivened with the right catalyst which CS provided.
I did link her sleepiness with the energy of the moon being withdrawn as mentioned up above. It was also natural that losing all her energy would then result in death.
Dream Connection
I was reminded that when Ma Go had said “Their connection has lasted for a very long time”, if she was referring to CS and MW (instead of to Yeon Woo and CM), it was a connection that had enabled the leaf of MW’s time to reach CS over the span of a millennia while both were sleeping although under different trees but at the same spot under a tree. At the end, it was only when both were sleeping at the same time that both saw the same childhood meeting dream.
@Storm Moon As a point of interest, the Episode 5 Ghost Bride did not at first have any string tied to her until her most desperate desire to be married (the red pouch) was accepted or taken by a man/spirit of comatose man/ghost. Being one who wanted to hold on and be married, she had to be the one to cut the string. For that reason, we do not see a red string between MW and CS … their chaste love with the impending separation, ruled out marriage in the current lifetime.
They did however have a strong connection… even stronger than the red string, I’d venture to say. I’d like to think of it as a strong dream connection, that would bring MW to CS. In the same way that the Tiger of the dreams of CEO Wang was able to walk on earth and enter the Baekdu painting of a place that no longer existed quite in that form, and in the way the leaf was able to reach CS, so too were CS and MW able to merge their different realms of existence and time through dreams.
So she’s like CS’s dad when he was in hospital? And his spirit wandered into HDL? Except she was in that state for 1300years? Her spirit was tied to the tree and her body emptied of it remained in HDL? Argh…my brain is dead trying to figure it out… 😂. Maybe I will just let it rest…
Yes! You got it! 💯 🎯 👏
They did however have a strong connection… even stronger than the red string, I’d venture to say. I’d like to think of it as a strong dream connection, that would bring MW to CS. In the same way that the Tiger of the dreams of CEO Wang was able to walk on earth and enter the Baekdu painting of a place that no longer existed quite in that form, and in the way the leaf was able to reach CS, so too were CS and MW able to merge their different realms of existence and time through dreams.
And that’s why the painting is important and that’s why she had to DIE while dreaming!!😂
Hahaha. See? I didn’t even have to write my #3 Mt Baekdu painting and the tiger.
I’ll post this on the blog.
Look, there’s a progression here in my posts.
First, the MaGos. I explained the MaGos so you can see how MG3 interfered and, in her usual bungling way, helped the lovers stay together. The connection still exists even after her death.
Despite what the writer said in the translation, and the confusion about Manwol’s state of being, MW was alive before MG3 arrived but now she’s dead after MG3.
Her LETHARGY = Her physical body shutting down.
Then I talked about the purposes of dreams, one of which is turning dreams into reality. Throughout the story, dreams turn into reality. In Chansung’s case, dreams and reality mesh.
And then the painting. The Mt Baekdu painting is to be the next step in my explanation. The “Existence and Time” synthesizes all together. 😂
But go ahead. I like how y’all taking the challenge now and engaging in the discussion.
This is so much better than talking about chemistry 😂 and Oppa Oppa Oppa!
😂 Right? We got that “First Snow” trope.
But wait! “First” snow can also be linked to death. I’ve seen it done before in Hyun Bin’s movie Millionaire’s First Love. 😂 Lee Yeonhee was dying but she wanted to wait for snow. I can’t remember the details now, but she died while on the swing while snow flakes swirled. Hyun Bin was with her… I think. Lol. See? I wasn’t really paying attention to HB. I was reflecting on death coming like snow: quiet, peaceful, unfrightening, and white.
I thought “ahhh what a gentle way to go.”
That’s the kind of death I envisioned for MW. To die peacefully in the arms of her lover. Instead of being dispatched into nothingness by MG4.
So we got two more tropes, eh?
I’ve said what I believe. Letting go now.
*Handing out Ferreros*🏵🏵🏵
They have reincarnated and are on their honeymoon in Thailand, where Man Wol stopped and looked at small octopus 🐙 wondering why she craves it.🤣🤣🤣
Better octopus (wait, it’ll be cooked right?) than chicken feet! To me eating raw octopus is like french-kissing with 8 clinging feet of a cephalopod. 🤪
I’m suddenly craving a Ferrero Rocher now. Rocher means rock in French. I sometimes joke that my problem with this chocolate “rock” is I can’t stop till I’ve devoured a boulder.
Interestingly enough, a Ferrero is a multi-layered candy. Just like this kdrama. There’s more to a Ferrero and this drama than what initially meets the eye. 😂
LOL @sph_7 Poor octopi being eye-balled by the eating witch Man Wol! If they’re web-footed, they won’t have a chance of survival. Catch you on DB or wherever!
@packmule3 @GB – I think it will be roasted, if CS manages to haggle down to an appropriate price and let her buy. Haha.
The raw live ones aren’t that bad, but I haven’t tried ingesting a whole one at once.
I really really have Ferreros to hand out because I saw it at the grocery and couldn’t resist. Lol
lol. Yes, I can easily imagine CS haggling. But then he’ll allow her to take a gazillion selfie with octopus, and he’ll suggest the right condiment to go with it.
See? We got CS’ character down pat. He’s really an ideal/idealistic sweetheart.
Yes, I agree. If someone cuts the tentacles and the head into thin slices, I’ll be able eat a live octopus. It’s just tako sashimi, right?
But ingesting a whole live one is too much for me. I love crabs but eating a live one simply blows my mind… in a destructive sense.
Yes, beaches in Asia, like in Thailand and Phillipines, are really something else. The beaches here in the US can’t hold a candle to them. Also, our favorite memories of our Asian trips would be the food offered at your beck-and-call at the beaches. One time, we hired a private boat, and all sorts of native delicacies were prepared for us — on the boat! — while we went snorkeling. The smorgasbord really took us by surprise. It was like we died and went to heaven. lol.
There were pineapples, mangoes, melons, (lol! AND those were the only ones I recognized by name), fish, shrimp, barbecue…. My sons were young then but they still remember the whole experience. I’m sure when they plan for their weddings, a honeymoon in Asia will be one of their “dream” places.
That’s one I like the idea of CS and MW sailing on their boat and enjoying a meal on a beach. It’s kinda sad, isn’t it, that MW has been to the moon and back (i.e., kicked back down to earth) but hasn’t enjoyed a real, natural beach.
What I like about this discussion is it’s showing us how open the ending really was in spite of the interview which seemed to shut it down to ‘she died’. But I noticed, with Pkm3, the Hong sister said that only in relation to what Man Wol was experiencing, not what Chang Sun was experiencing. On the other hand, she was unequivocal that CS’s dream vision was not a reincarnation, which seemed obvious to me too while watching, so while giving full marks for originality and analysis, I still remain unconvinced by arguments in favour of a reincarnation in that scene.
More convincing to me than an actual plot point, is the way the HS subverted their own narrative by giving a choice between the “closed” ending – Man Wol ends – or the ‘open’ – but she’ll reincarnate. And here we get Existentialism as the closed ending (the entire movement is based on Heidigger’s Existence and Time) or Religion as the ‘open’ ending, specifically Buddhism and reincarnation. In one sense, then, believing in the open ending, the religious or supernatural ending where our characters meet again after death, requires a leap of faith, as all religions do. They don’t tell us outright the two will reincarnate, they just imply it through vision, and a few hints, but most of all our experience of the show.
I think it’s a beauty of an ending just like that myself. And I’m agnostic! But advocating a leap of faith! How come the religious ones among us are asking for certainty?!! Philosophical question for you Pkm3…😉
@barbrey On the closed/Heidigger ending vs the open/Buddhist ending, there could be a case for the closed ending having a Buddhist interpretation too. A big aspect of Buddhism is how to escape the cycle of reincarnation, and that it is possible to do so. Therefore, if CS is able to mess with the fabric of time and space, in a sense this would mean he’s gained some element of enlightenment. It’s not really Buddhist enlightenment or escape per se (he’s very emotional about this whole MW thing and isn’t like a Zen monk with no worldly attachments), but this could be an angle the HDL universe is coming from. Perhaps, even, maybe MG is upset because CS found an unconventional way to somewhat get himself and MW outside the cycle of reincarnation and suffering.
There might also be a Taoist angle here (since Mago is a Taoist deity) but I’m not as familiar with Taoism.
Lastly, again, this might have precedents in the East Asian “stories of the strange” I’ve been blabbering about – blending of reality and dreams, past and future, all that good stuff. As another example to the ones I’ve given above, there is a Japanese story about a man who comes back home after being away for years. He sees his house and meets his wife, and they have an emotional and very steamy reunion. When he wakes up, he realizes his neighborhood is in ruins; only one old man is around and he says the villagers all died years ago and only he survived. It’s left ambiguous whether his wife was a ghost, his imagination, or he brought her back briefly through his will. There are other stories where the concept of bringing someone or something back through sheer will is a major plot point but I can’t think of any off the top of my head.
@sph_7 and packmule3: Maybe MW and CS reincarnated as IU and YJG and have to relive their experiences in a TV show a la a twisted groundhog day. I’m joking. Please don’t get any ideas, crazy fangirls.
Oh, and one last thing, as someone once told me, why do you have to reincarnate as someone in the future? Couldn’t one reincarnate to someone in the past? (And I think I came across a Western short story with the latter premise)
Btw, the love story between CS and MW is part of a well-known trope of love-death or liebestrod. The name comes from Wagner’s final movement in Tristan and Isolde but the trope was recognized long before that. Basically, the couple only consummates (literally or metaphorically)their love in Death or after Death, or one member of the couple IS Death or a death entity. It’s not necrophilia but comes perilously close (but only in the sense that all vampire romance novels come close too).
I think that’s one reason why I dislike the idea of MW dying in CS’s arms so much. I thought they had just consummated their relationship in that scene, so the two things so close together – sex and death – is a bit repellent to me! But in a sense, when the love-death theme is used, the moment of death and the climax of sex are one and the same even if couched in romantic metaphor.
I think I’m going to have to rewatch episodes if I continue to think and write about the show, because it’s fading quick, but I am so reluctant to take the fun analysis we’ve been doing too seriously. It would then become work! So don’t mind me if I pop off a few shots from literary theory or criticism without following up with my own analysis. They’re just interesting things that occur to me.
After my discussion with @barbrey on steamy Oppa scenes in the other post, I realized there’s a couple more connections to East Asian mythology I can make here. (@barbrey I don’t mind at all, it’s been great for me weaving in both Western and Eastern Lit into HDL here)
First, to continue about my favorite story about the two lit nerds above, which ends with a “death is a dream” quip, that’s not just a quip – dreams do play a role in the story’s climax. After they have a breakup due to the male lead’s friends being assholes, she comes back to ask him to protect her from a demon that wants to marry her. He can only fight this demon by falling asleep and dreaming. As he fights the demon in the dream, one of his friends passes by at a critical moment to land the killing shot on the demon (and in doing so atone for his previous behavior). The story does not question the logic of how a demonic ghost can die again, and die in a dream, but it is clear that that dream created a reality. Additionally, though not stated explicitly, that dream helped the girl earn enough trust in the guy, in the real world, to want to become living again.
This brings me to my second point and an addition to the comment @barbrey makes about sex and death. To repost what I said on the other post: Amusingly, if HDL were even closer to some of these older Asian stories, MW might only need a steamy lovemaking session with CS to become alive again. The logic is that the dead spirit absorbs the life essence of the living person. It does come with consequences in many depictions such as the living person dying or at least getting super ill. (In the story above, the initial reason why they are chaste is the girl doesn’t want to kill her bf. Once she’s been in the living world long enough, they can do it without killing him, though he still becomes deathly ill for a while.)
I don’t think MW and CS literally had sex in that scene (she’s way too sleepy lol and I don’t think “sleeping partner” or necrophilia is a fetish for either), but I can see it as symbolic sex, given the two are sharing a dream that shows how deep their connection is. If we are going through the argument that CS brought back MW alive, and we interpret their shared dream as symbolic sex, then it would actually fit the trope above.
TLDR: Dreams bringing about reality and the connection between sex, death, and life has precedent in the genre of East Asian mythology and literature that HDL (directly or indirectly) draws from.
In case anyone thought I was joking about the octopus craving in Thailand and CS haggling for MW….. see left most pic and the 🐙 signage in front of her.
http://www.dramabeans.com/wp-content/uploads/bpfb/10048_0-60603000-1567820923_7603f54d-97ad-4e87-9676-cdbfdbc97a42.jpeg
LOL @sph_7 That’s cute!
I just realised how apt it was the this moon show has taken place now. It’s the Mid-Autumn Festival (Autumn Moon Festival?) and 🥮 mooncakes 🥮 galore are out in my part of the world.
Seeing them makes me think of HDL and the stubborn full moon. 😄 Instead of MW doing all that eating, we get to eat the moon!
Went to Reddit to see your wrap-up @sph_7. Nice work.
@scholar-gentry, there are stories very similar in the western canon too. I love ghost stories, particularly Victorian ones, so have read everything from LeFanu to MR James to Stephen King. They’re the only short story anthologies I ever read anymore or I listen on Librivox, which has great collections, and it’s a fine way to go to sleep!
Anyway, dreams becoming reality, or psychic vampire types are all there. It occurs to me I have likely been watching a slightly different drama than most people. From the beginning I’ve thought of MW as an immortal undead. I was waiting to hear that the lives of her managers fueled her longevity, but that never happened lol!
@Barbrey My main experience with that sort of Western gothic/ghost/etc. was in grade school, but from what I recall your comparisons would be apt (and I now get why the Victorian inspired fashion and decor in HDL felt right). If you like those short story anthologies then you’d definitely like Pu Songling and his ilk, they’re the East Asian equivalents of gothic lit with similar themes like liminal beings, transgression of boundaries, and ambiguity towards established rationality and order (Neo-Confucian in this case), but it tends to be mellower, moralistic, and bureaucratic. Another recommendation I didn’t mention would be Ueda Akinari’s Tales of Moonlight and Rain, a 18th cent. Japanese take on this East Asian genre and I think perhaps closer in style to Western Gothic literature.
And I get you, once I made the connection between HDL and the old Asian “Tales of the Strange” I also feel I’m watching a slightly different drama. To me as well, this really is just a modern take on those old genres, Eastern or Western. Your interpretation of MW as a (chaste) vampire/succubu as mentioned here and the other thread makes absolute sense and would not be incompatible with my take of MW as a (chaste) take on the life sucking ghost/fox spirit from Asian mythology and lit. I guess instead of sucking out life essences, she takes your money lol.
I absolutely know I’ll like Pu Songlin and have ordered at my local bookstore. I am fairly wary of translations though as I often find them simplistic. Did you read in the original or English? Anyway I’ll try this one first before your other recommendations.
You can see why I got frustrated along with Flying Tool that the sisters did not give a more concrete explanation of ‘what’ rather than ‘who’ Man Wol was. She was definitely inspired by both chaste moon goddess and undead seductress traditions. She has both ghost and human powers. She seems like a minor divinity (in charge of a rest stop for lost souls), and has semi-divine powers like telekinesis, teleportation,etc. Her soul (and body?) seem bound to a tree – if her sword was herself, then the tree is literally her tomb, this last being the reality I’ve mainly subscribed to, so her bodily form is figment not real.
Because we don’t have any concrete, or when they are concrete they conflict, explanations of what she is, we can puzzle her together in a lot of different ways, which is fun, but quite frustrating as well. Liminal creatures are always slippery, though, so I should appreciate her ambiguity more than I do.
@barbrey
For English, John Minford’s translation is the best. The Giles translation isn’t bad but it was from over a century ago and sanitized for Victorian sensibilities, which is a problem given many of the stories revolve around sexual and political themes. I wish I could read the original Chinese but can’t; I could probably read the Viet version (as my father did), but my Vietnamese is, while competent, at an elementary school level. Minford’s translation felt right and I’ve been told it’s as faithful to the feel of the original as can be. He does seem to get the generally whimsical mundanity that pervades a lot of these types of stories.
Anyways, I get what you mean with “what” MW is. The most concrete interpretation I have of her is a modern take on the old Asian trope of a mortal being chosen by heaven to become one of their bureaucratic officials (or in this case, a hotel CEO). The usual mortal in such stories are often given greater knowledge and powers for their new station, and are usually dead by the time they get their new job, though due to the nature of their condition they aren’t reincarnating like normal humans. But even then things can still be very vague and ambiguous as the HS don’t give us much information either way on the “what” of MW as you say, and the unreliable narrator principle definitely applies here for how the characters explain her nature including herself. Your comment above excellently summarizes the facts about MW’s liminal state, and would not be out of place of either Western gothic lot or the Eastern tales of the strange.
@The-Scholar-Gentry.
Reading the description of Pu Songlin in the introduction to his book reminded me of the story of our bartender from HdL. Scholar getting first place with great praise, but unable get to the next stage all his life, becoming immortal for his tales (though written for the scholars of his age) – change a few brush strokes and we have our bartender-scholar and his story in our drama!
Thank you for the recommendation!
@scholar-gentry, All the tales are on Librivox! As I told you, I listen to ghost stories while falling asleep so now I can listen to these as well! Also, they are free on Project Gutenberg. I know you didn’t recommend the translator (Giles), and I will read my ordered book (Mintner) instead, but was delighted to find the audio stories free at Librivox and others might want to give them a try in that format as well.
@Flying Tool: And Pu Songling wasn’t the only one either, he’s probably just one of the more famous examples, but his life story definitely has similarities to Scholar Kim’s.
@Barbrey Most of the free versions online are probably Giles’ version. As mentioned, his translation isn’t bad per se, it’s just that elements have been removed or changed to make it less “scandalous,” but Minford’s version should be a good read.
Also, this might interest you, but I was discussing MW’s liminal status with a Chinese guy or girl on Reddit, and they made this connection with Chinese mythology in regards to the “what” of MW which I didn’t think of:
“I actually think MW is a modern characterisation of Meng Po, whom you may have heard about. Initially I thought MG was Meng Po but as I reached the end I felt MW was actually Meng Po. Contrary to what the name suggests, some variations in the legend say that Meng Po is actually a young, beautiful girl which is very fitting with MW. I mentioned in my previous comment that in Chinese mythology the dead had to drink some soup to forget their past life. Meng Po is responsible for this, she sets up shop right before the bridge and makes sure the spirits drink the soup and make their merry way across the bridge. Which I kind of felt was MW’s responsibility, to satisfy her customers until they were willing to leave. The dead also had an opportunity to go up Wang Xiang Tai (a tower or pagoda of sorts) to take one last good look at those they’ve left behind in the human realm and then drink the soup in order to head off to be reincarnated. Again, reminds me of the hotel’s function, the last resting place and the last opportunity to connect with the living. And surely that sky view at the top balcony matches that of a tower haha. The lilies they grow in the hotel as well remind me of the red spider lily (or you may have heard them being referred to by their Japanese name Higanbana) which apparently are the only things to grow in the underworld and help guide the dead into their next reincarnation. Consistent with your point that humans are occasionally appointed as officials in the celestial hierarchy, there isn’t really a clean explanation about how Meng Po came to be which makes me think Meng Po is really a position in the hierarchy rather than an individual. Which would make so much sense why KSH inherits the hotel after MW. Meng Po technically also reports to King Yama.”
Will you be continuing with the last three parts for the final challenge? I love reading your analysis.
Oh yeaaaah. I forgot about this! Why did I forget?
9/11 happened and then Yang Yang’s birthday surprised me so I had to finish my reviews for Love O2O. They were 5 months overdue. Lol.
Okay. Will TRY to get back to it when I get back from the art festival today. “Try” being the operative word there. Weird, though. I thought I posted the follow-ups?
The Art Festival in Old Town Alexandria is one of my favorite fall festivals.
They close five blocks of a major road so artists can set up their booths in the middle of the street. They sell paintings, sculptures, jewelries, potteries, whimsical doorknockers, and other artisan crafts.
If it’s a splendid day, like today, my husband and I plant ourselves at an outdoor table of our favorite seafood restaurant and watch the world go by. But I think we’ll go for tapas today.
By the way, who are you? 🧐 Where did you come from? You aren’t @scholar-Gentry with another alias, are you?
Great to hear! I’m just a closet reader who stumbled upon your website because I love reading drama analysis. You particularly write really well and are easy and enjoyable to follow. Keep it up! Enjoy the Art Festival with your husband today.
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This comes a bit late – but I wanted to post my thoughts since the show left quite an impression on me after I watched it over the the last two weeks. It left a bit of of an aching void after it ended and I was surprised to have that feeling, but in a good way because it set me thinking a bit more about things and I was happy that I came across HDL as my first show in a long long while.
I also wanted to post here because the discussions here had been very thoughtful, and I appreciate taking in the additional context by various posters including the blog owner @packmule3 as I gradually went through the episodes. So here’ my contribution.
Storyline & overall show quality
As a on-off consumer of dramas over the years, I did not have much expectations when I first took in this show. I sort of went along as the story established itself as MW’s journey towards her redemption, and how various events shaped that transformation. I find the story to be very interesting and unique, the writing is good, although there are some places where it seem they tried to do too much, and in the end had to be trimmed back to accommodate other things that needed to happen (e.g. CS’s scene with his mother). It is also obvious that no expense was spared in the production of this show – and it now feels like HDL will age quite well into the future for some years to come. And for me personally the context provided by this site, especially the extensive coverage by @packmule3 helped me a lot with getting to a better understanding of the symbolism and background embedded within the story – and significantly added to my enjoyment of the show as I went through the episodes.
IU as Jang Man-Wol
This show is all about Jang Man-Wol, I thought IU carried off her portrayal as MW very well; in the beginning alternating between flamboyance and saltiness (such glorious pain), and gradually transforming as her vulnerability emerged as CS steadily peeled back the hardened crust that she has built around herself as he gradually unburdened her of her past. I was thoroughly smitten with her by the end of the drama, despite me not knowing that she is already a megastar in Korea when I first started the show.
In their interview the Hong sisters said they would not have done the show the way it was without IU’s participation – I am not sure if is really the case where no other actress could have taken on JMW well – but IU really made the role her own and she defined it in a way that people will always associate future attempts (if any) with her Jang Man-Wol.
Yeo Jin-Goo as Gu Chan-Seong
He had a difficult role because CS is really there to complement MW as she goes onto her journey of self-discovery. I liked his performance a lot; and I thought he managed the balance very well – from initially his relationship with her as a subordinate, to understanding his “uncool” role in her life, and his growing love for MW despite all her faults. I enjoyed his banter with MW very much, and found the development his relationship with MW to be appropriate – it is chaste, there is a lot of respect and towards the end a massive amount of love, but both having to struggle to keep a distance knowing that it will end. The last few episodes were painful to watch, as he struggled to keep himself together knowing that he has to see her off and he has to stay strong so that she can have the courage to go on and to leave the last bit of herself behind – in him.
Mr Kim, Ms Choi and Hyun-Joong & Yuna
The supporting characters was written well in not just serving a filler in between episodes, but they played important roles in helping to move the story along. Their respective back stories were all part of MW’s journey, and I am glad the show took the effort to find a resolution to each of them in the end. I was happy that the ghost staff were not written as a group of generics to be packed off in a bus at the end of the show.
Ko Chung-Myung
There is a “Team CM” out there, who thought that this would have made a better pairing and it would have been more appropriate if MW’s saviour looked more like CM rather than how it was portrayed by CS. This is really a matter of individual preference and in my case, I would still want YJG in this role – and the way the show has intended for the relationship between MW and CS.
Within the context of the story, CM did open a place MW’s heart at the beginning, but my read is this was burned away by his treachery of all of MW’s people in the end – whatever the excuse he had. He was left flying around for 1300 years with a twinkling butt in punishment, and the end was telling – when MW asked him what else he had to say – he had none and there was nothing left between them. He was the deepest burden, being the one she had loved and the one who also she hated for the ultimate betrayal, and the unfinished business is the reconciliation between these two contradictions – and in the end she found the resolution when she saw that killing him will not resolve the hate, nor would it have changed the past.
The only issue I had was the show was somewhat ambiguous in writing about the circumstances around his death, it made him sound like he was being noble, but MW is someone who would have died on her feet rather than lived in servitude on her knees, and he should have known better.
The Ma Gos
The deities in this show are basically as flawed as the humans they claim to manage. LOL. Perhaps this is why our society is so screwed up sometimes. But there are also beautiful parts to our life and perhaps the lesson here is to drink those in to the fullest, and strive to be better than rather than to be beholden to some unsatisfying past.
The ending
I initially found the ending to be sad and I had wished for something that will allow MW and CS to be together, but after a while I thought it was an appropriate to have MW and CS go on their respective journeys. MW found her redemption and she left without her regrets, and within that redemption also came the reward of it being channeled through someone she really loved in the end in CS.
The post-bridge scenes left some additional things to the viewers imagination. There are some debates on where that could have existed, but in my mind I see the CS of this lifetime moving on and living out the rest of his life alone. He will have a long life and become enormously wealthy, but he will always be alone and he will never be able to accept another one into his heart other than MW. He will hold out hope that someday perhaps MW will return in his lifetime, but if not he will look forward to another future (which he knows is waiting) where he can find happiness with her in a different world and a different time. That does pose an interesting question – to what extent will you sacrifice your “now” to another “you” in another timeline, know that it is the same you, and yet it is not the “you” of today?
Overall findings
I was glad that I spent some time with HDL these past two weeks. It was not what I had expected – I thought it was a flashy show and would end with something happily-ever-after type of normal and I would forget it, and having been a nice filler of some spare time. But the residual feelings are still there and I had to write about this to “unburden” myself so that I can move on.
I really loved IU in this show and how she brought Jang Man-Wol to life. I read a bit about her history as a singer-actress after the show and I do wonder what her future will hold – she is 27 and heading into the peak of her career in the next five to seven years. She has walked a fairly unique path and her directions she had taken so far suggest someone who has an idea of where she wants to go and there are things she had done to stake out those paths. She is no ordinary person, despite her putting out an appearance of that being the case.
HDL feels like a show that will age well – if I look at this again 10 years down the road I think it is likely I will feel like the show will be as contemporary as it is today. One reason is the unique storyline, setting and the lavish production detail, the other reason is the way the show has constructed its relationships between the various characters. It is not the first story about finding one’s redemption in the present via letting go of the past, but Jang Man-Wol’s journey will always be a good one to watch. So thank you HDL for a good time, and for all the self-reflection that it has brought about. And thanks for all in this blog for your sharing!
Hi @Redbean_bread nice to read you, and you’re welcome.
I’m glad you enjoyed HDL and that it brought you on a journey of self-reflection. It was a show that I too felt a lot for, and which kept me thinking about it for some time after it aired.
I truly love how IU was styled and about 95% of her outfits LOL. Aside from how good it looked and the many symbols that we could have the pleasure to notice and analyse, it was an overall well-written and well-made show, with a mix of melancholy-yet-hopefulness that still ended on a healing note. I enjoyed how every story contributed to our knowledge of what Man Wol might think and do or the alternatives that lay ahead. I liked that it stuck to it’s logic and let Man Wol die, and all the ghosts go to their proper place. There was so much to interpret and great satisfaction in finding that our interpretations were right. It’s a good start for your return to kdramas. Cheers! 😃