The thread is now open for spoilers, comments, analyses, theories and scrutiny of Eps 14 and 15.
Let’s enjoy the wedding,
credit: cloudywithachanceoffreedom’s tumblr
but please no eleventh-hour separations and deaths of Lee Gon, TaeEul, Lady Noh, and friends!
credit: bai-feng-jiu’s tumblr
Heh! Are we to be set for a wedding? I’ve kept clear of previews and spoilers for the time being and have no clue LOL.
Thanks @pkml3!
Can someone confirm the episode is 120 minutes long? I read it on Instagram but I don’t know, two hours!!!!
Dear me! @Alxmar97 just Ep 14? Or do they mean that Ep 14 will be followed immediately by Ep 15, so it’s 120 minutes altogether?
Each episode is now 70-75 minutes long. If they have 2 episodes back-to-back, then it may be 140-150 minutes!! 😱 😳 😬 😑
Oh I am going to get myself ready with bubble milk tea with arang sugar and korean fried chicken tonight.
@Alxmar97 what I saw in IG was 1hr 20mins but only for Ep15.
Please spoil these for me.
1. Who’s in the locked room that SinJae found at the Care Center?
Is it the real young SinJae the doppelganger whose identity he took on?
2. Why is Luna just sitting there, unmoving, when Lee Gon collapsed on the floor in the final scene? Was it a frozen time, too?
Thanks.
@pkml3 WRT to 2) TE was not entirely frozen. She did move slightly when LG was collapsing. I don’t think that there was a time freeze there. In any case, show has LL standing at the river in KOC at that time, therefore it’s not likely he passed through the portals, which would freeze time.
I’ll have to watch Ep 14 for 1).
I believe those who can get to watch it before me will be able to spoil you more quickly and better! 😆
Right. TE wasn’t frozen so why was she just sitting there immobile when LG got the ID from her and collapsed? That was a weird one. And yes, LL was already walking by the river. I understood that both LL’s and LG’s “realization” occurred simultaneously.
For (1) it is SJ’s doppelganger in the care center.
🙂
Episode 14 is a good rollercoaster.
Thanks, No one!!
I bow to you @pm3 🙇 for selecting THE most apt set of GIFs without even seeing the episode. How long was he stuck ? This is so sad. No wonder he looks as tired as he does here.
I’ve been told (and ridiculed) numerous times that I’m “psychic.” 🙃 @nrllee knows. 🤣🤣
But LG should escape the “root” that he’s standing in because his “zero” is standing in front of him — just like what he said when he proposed.
😦 Why ridiculed? Your predictions come from a keen sense of observation and astute analysis that not everyone has. The world is a strange place. Please accept my 90 degree bow.
@packmule I took it that Luna was just sitting there waiting for him to collapse. I did see her move a little so I didn’t think it was a time freeze.
Anyway, going to stick all the phone booths sightings here, in case we need the info for analysis later (because of this spoiler https://www.instagram.com/p/CA9HIKjJifw/):
1994: LL crosses to ROK after regicide, stops at newsstand & meets King Lee Ho’s double. A green phone booth is visible next to the newsstand, with a queue.
12/11/19: TE is stuck at the KOC Seoul train station and calls the palace 17 times. There are 2 phone booths, both are red.
Dec 19: LG crosses to ROK to call TE, but meets her instead. Mentions his intent on using the payphone, but the phone booth is not shown.
2020: TE is abducted by LL. She spies 2 phone booths after escaping: one has a green phone that looks more old fashioned, the other is a red one like the ones at the train station. She uses the green one to call the palace.
Ok, now that I’ve unloaded my brain, off to watch Ep 14 with some kimchi ramyun. Happy watching everyone!
Ep. 14 is a whole 71 mins. I’ll take all the spoilers before I can watch it, since it’ll be hard to get that much “free” time in one sitting.
Ahhh. Thanks for this info, JT7! 👍👍What will I do without you all?
So there’s a good old-fashioned payphone needed in the plot.
Oh! Is that why there was that coin floating in that No Man’s Land of his, too? For emergency use at the phone booth? 🤣🤣
The weird thing is most kids nowadays wouldn’t know how a phone booth works if they saw one.
Omg @JT7 🙇🙇🙇 actually, all of you accept my bows while I go and wallow in self-insufficiency.
Also @JT7 ramyun ! Yum!
PREVIEW EPISODE 15 HD ENG SUB
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z1G1nBATRXM
So are our minds blown away with Epi 14?
Despite me wanting KES to go full “Endgame”, she went full “Back to the Future”.
Too many things to discuss but I’m afraid to spoil.
My and my daughter’s minds were blown away, watched ep 14 with soju mixed with yakult and chips. Can’t wait for a longer episode Tom!
Go ahead and spoil.
Yup @mychoiyoung, mind blown. Thanks for the preview. I sneaked on raw first and got blown away in spite of not understanding a word. Now will watch on Netflix with husband after baby sleeps and to get properly blown away. Dear Vodka, here I come! We’re planning on the very weird combination of vodka and grapes coz no chips in the house 😂
hi! im glad to be here reading all of your analysis. im so excited to read every each one of them, so this is my first time posting here.
regarding ep 14, ive a lot in my mind; im in a worst confusion state.
LG who is in the past is giving TE and JY new memories in their present selves and there is a scene where TE recalled her new memory meeting future LG back in 2016, where LG asked her to be nice to him and he will be there at Gwanghwamun, wearing full-button jacket (idk what type of clothes he’s wearing) and another new memory is recalled when TE was stabbed in her stomach by Luna where they meet at Gwanghwamun and TE at that timeline remembered future LG’s advice to her back in 2016.
so, my question is, the meeting that TE had that was recalled as her new memory, is that the TE that we know now? or is she not? Is it another timeline future LG whom travelled back in time created?
Packmule3 you said to go ahead and spoil so am telling you straight off that all your theories came true! Alot of revelations but that just means another wormhole created for me. I am waiting for you to explain it easier for me to understand the flow of LG’s time.
It’s like I am chasing endlessly my cotton ball brain that has flown into many directions. Just like this drama!
Oh my head!
Spoilers ahead
1) how did LG travel through time ..26 years?
2) he planned everything that happened previously
3) why did he give the racetrack key to Luna to pick up in the rabbit jumper?
4) LL 2020 died by his own 1994 hands so there would be no LL and no conflict to begin with correct?
5) ok I am lost again.
6) now the sequence of events really reminds me of my first foray into k drama Queen and I…
Please help explain pm3 and the residents of shallow island. Thanking you all in advance.
Alright, my impressions on my first viewing, I’ll watch it again tonight to digest it better:
1. Sj’s doppelganger is alive (to the surprise of no one). This could have been revealed earlier cause I don’t really see what this revelation brings to the table.
2. The time travel. I’m gonna need someone to explain me this. What made the time travel possible? What did LG do differently? Is it the fact that both halves “met” in NMLand? Also, there is more than one NMLand.
3. Speaking of NMLand, it’s clear now that NMLand is in fact located between the portals.
4. Present LL was killed by 1994 LL. WTF! I’m not sure if I like this. All that trouble, all those years of crafting the evil plan, for nothing? I mean, they were presenting us this really clever and scary villain and then the idiot lets LG cut the flute AGAIN, when he was already told this would happen. Come on, you’re destroying this really interesting character.
5. There was no second shooter. When did LG learn to shoot that well?
6. What did Dark Knight LG Episode 14 do differently compare to Dark Knight LG Episode 1? The saving scene was identical. But DKLGEP1 didn’t meet little TE, otherwise she would have had memories of LG later on. So what happened to DKLGEP1? My head hurts!
7. Why Back to the Future 😭 Had KES followed Avengers Endgame, things would be more clear. We would have several timelines and the chance to look at different outcomes of the story.
8. It seemed to me Luna didn’t mean to kill TE. Which is why the stabbing is on the left side of the abdomen. I’m no doctor, but it doesn’t seem THAT serious.
9. The payphone scene was BEAUTIFUL.
All I can remember now.
@Alxmar97 KES actually did a LAKE HOUSE on us with that phone booth segment with TE & LG.
Anyone familiar with this movie? It stars Keannu Reeves & Sandra Bullock. But instead of a phone booth, they reached to each other via mail box — not email but a literal mail box.
The film is a remake of the South Korean motion picture Il Mare (2000) but I was not able to see that original.
Basing on the scenes that were revealed in Ep 14, there is a possibility that LG would then need to go back in time to ensure Lady Noh will be brought to KOC.
LG would have then put the right people in the right place to help him fulfill his destiny.
Or even the writer Kim So Wol who has been the source of those heartbreaking poems. ☺️ Aigoo..my head.
Hi. Here’s my take on ep. 14
SPOILERS
1. Kang Shin Jae’s doppleganger is alive but in coma.
2. Shin Jae visited his “father” in jail who looks the same with the son of Prince Buyeong.
3. Shin Jae is probably Lee Gon’s nephew?
4. Maybe Lee Lim did not kill Shin Jae because he is planning to make him a puppet king.
I love Ep. 14. I feel like I need to rewatch it.
Thank you @packmule. This blog is a source of comfort to me, i have been stressed out lately after my business closed because of the pandemic. I love reading your conversations with @GB @Welmaris @mychoiyoung and others. 😊
I admit I got upset as I was expecting LG would be able to stop LL from getting the other half of the flute, that the whole purpose of his time-travel is to not let the manpasikjeok be cut in half. But he told Yeong during the rowing competition that what he’s doing is all according to plan and cannot be delayed as it can risk his time-travel to reach current JTE. Everything in the past has to happen again to reach the current time. So I’m confused as to how JTE 2016 altered her reaction in meeting LG at Gwanghamun. That LG wasn’t even wearing the black clothes so it means current LG (in black clothes) is still traveling through time, as per ep15 preview he is still wearing all-black. Will their change of reaction at Gwanghamun bring any good to current 2020 JTE when she gets to meet again the time-traveling LG?
@Mychoiyoung I need to check that movie out ASAP 😁😁
@carolstar Regarding:
“3. why did he give the racetrack key to Luna to pick up in the rabbit jumper?”
Because he wants her to guide “him” (the LG that Dark Night LG saved today) to the portal as we saw on episode 1. What I’m not sure is how he realized that it was him the one who gave Luna access to the racetracks.
Sorry about the duplicate comment!
Also what exactly did JoYeong want to convey to Lee Gon about Jihun’s mum?
There’s a scene where the Fate talks with Song Jeong Hye (Lee Ji Hun’s mother) and if I understand their dialogue well… The kid might not be the fate at all, but the embodied soul of Manpasikjeok or a being connected to it who divided in the same way as the flute…? She/he said: “I also want to save myself and become whole”. Interesting… But I might be completely wrong and the kid was referring to something else, for example being a fate indeed.
Episode is 14 was fun. It’s all coming out now! Wow, Lady Noh bumps into the future LG.
So many questions…..
1) The King who returned to TE with the flowers in that robe came from the future which will only be possible if the flute is restored…..
2) SJ seems to have a role to play based on the preview of ep 15; after all the flute must be restored and it’s halves are back in the hands of 8 year old LG and LL respectively
3) now LG knows that HCL saw him that night but does not yet know she is from ROK, I am sure she is also part of the puzzle
4) what’s the role of Song Jeong Hye? Yo yo kid does not speak to everyone and why does the king instruct JY to find her?
NMLand (now officially confirmed to be placed between the portals) was also thought-provoking. I assume that the “mirror effect” we have always seen was the symbol of Lee Lim’s NMLand… Full of photos, not balloons like in Lee Gon’s case. The most interesting thing was when Tae Eul’s photo fell on the ground and burned. At its place, the plant has sprouted…
There is something up with Lee Gon’s double’s mom, why did LL keep her alive? She is still my hole.
And TE has wounds that were not explained. I think it’s Luna in the police station when they are looking through evidence, question is what did TE get tangled up in to end up all bruised and bandaged up… tomorrow will reveal…. then a WHOLE WEEK till closure… seriously 6 to 8 more episodes would not have ben amis…
I love the way that have explained the time travel and how TE is ‘gaining’ new memories as he changes the past that he is yet to live 🙂 Before only her soul recognised him, but now she actually knows him, and realises how far he had to come just for her.
@Alxmar97
LGand LR are both able to travel back to 1994 because they are in the in between space at the same time, thus making the flute whole. This is explained by the Yoyo kid to LG doppelgänger’s mother. The Yoyo kid also hints that she is the flute by saying she wants to be whole.
LOL LR! His 1994 though about the coup every night, but it was his future self coming back and confirming the legend of the flute to caused him to put everything in motion.
I was right about LG being the only savior, people were just reading to much into the shoes. Having more than one savior just makes the story to convoluted.
Prince Buyeong’s son was helping LR to escape, this’s one lose end nicely wrapped up.
A lot of people on soompi and Reddit seem to be confused about why LG is able to travel forward to meet JTE at different points of her life. While 2020 LR’s half of the flute completely disintegrated after being murdered by his 1994 self. LG’s flute was breaking down, but not completely gone. He mentioned this during his conversation with JTE in 2016.
PM Koo and Luna are working for themselves to get the flute. Their actions are still consistent with their characters. Koo wants power and Luna wants to change the past maybe?
For me, from watching this episode for the first time, I don’t see major plot holes. It was the most gripping and emotionally draining episode thus far. I have faith that KES will give us an emotionally satisfying yet logical ending.
@TD, it’s TE at the police station. At one point she looked at the phone on the desk and was thinking about LG calling her at work in the past. She got the bandages because of the explosion.
I don’t know if I should post my opinion on this episode 14 just yet.
I’m angry, and I should just calm down first.
Yes, it’s one of the best episodes of the drama.
But also a completely ruined episode, awful in so many ways.
And it also gives me other reasons to doubt even more strongly about the honesty of the writer.
75% of the emotional power is just gone in the wind…
I really really dig the consistency in TE’s character quirk — smelling.
In Epi 1, they discovered the dead body because she smelled something fishy in the car that she deliberately bumped
In this episode, she smelled the gas so they were able to escape the blow up
There is another instance which escapes me now. Anyone remembers?
But yes, I very much like that kind of detail in the profile of a character.
Oh my goodness, my head is spinning after this episode. So yes, @mychoiyoung, mindblown! And I mentioned Il Mare to @arihsi a couple days back in the previous open thread! The movie was beautifully done, and it came to mind when we were discussing time travel.
@arihsi enjoy the show! The kimchi ramyun is by Jongga, the same brand that keeps shoving their label in our faces in this show. It’s pretty good!
My main takeaways from Ep 14:
1. It’s now confusing because we have the present timeline still running (in 2020), but it is simultaneously changing as LG goes back to 1994 and works his way through the years leading to 2020. Also, present time is still ongoing, with new events happening.
2. The past timeline in 1994-2020 does not change much. LG is going back basically to put things into place, to let things happen as they have happened (saving himself at the regicide, giving Luna access to the racetracks so that he can find the portal). The only 2 things that he has changed are:
– He tried to save his double’s family’s lives, by calling the police to alert them, but was told Ji Hun had already died.
– He is inserting himself into TE’s memories across the years, so that she will remember him when she finally meets him (which we then see she does).
3. I loved the twist that LL goes back to warn his past self, but the 2020 version gets killed. This effectively means that LL will live through the timeline until 2020 as we’ve seen, but should not exist after that. So our villain is out of the picture! BUT! Now we have 2 others after the flute for other reasons: Luna, & Pm Koo.
I nearly cried at the part when LG meets the 5 yo TE & looks at her with such tender eyes… but then she saved me. “I think I know who you are… You’re a kidnapper.” (I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry then!)
@summerwind525 Thank you, makes sense now 😁
@mychoiyoung: There was the instance she remembered smelling a sweet smell like cotton candy when she was abducted by LL, indicating those Katsura trees near his portal.
I liked the consistency in the characters!
Wait, wait, wait. New commenter here. So do you guys think this is the “end” of Lee Rim and there will be characters stepping up to fill his role (like PM Koo)? Or do you think this Lee Rim “2.0” (the one who savagely killed Lee Rim “1.0”) will smarten up and decide to not go back to the past – if he decides to not go to the past, then Lee Gon can’t either!!
@syd I don’t think Shin Jae’s ROK dad is the doppelganger of KOC Prince Buyeong’s son. Shin Jae’s dad I would assume would have the last name Kang and the Prince’s son would have the last name Lee.
I haven’t watched the show but I laughed, JT7, when you wrote that TaeEul said, “I think I know who you are… You’re a kidnapper.” (I didn’t know whether to laugh or cry then!) Pwahahahaha. That’s why I love TaeEul!!
She went from “Your eyes look like that of a criminal…a petty criminal” to “You’re a kidnapper.” Where does she get these ideas??
(I just mentioned it too a day ago in the constellation post: https://bitchesoverdramas.com/2020/06/04/the-king-ep-12-help-with-star-constellation)
Nice observation syd, totally missed that Shin Jae could be Lee Gon’s nephew . Lol there just too many characters to remember faces.
Yoyo kid might just be the Manpasikjeok or maybe not. But this episode filled up a lot of questions that weren’t previously shows to the viewers. I think the time loop is in place since the very first epusode, everytime perhaps LG makes some changes so that JTE could recognize him. Also I loled at LL killing his pwn future self. That’s what greed is. His future self wanted to help his past self but that isn’t really his nature plus he isn’t a science guy either. He just thought his future self was there to take the flute from him and his nature kicked in.
So time travel only happens when the Manpasikjeok is whole. That is why LG was stuck in travelling back and forth the NMland to reach the futire because he could no longer time travel since LL didn’t have his half of the flute anymore.
For once, I have a clear vision on many points, and answers to many of the questions you ask.
I know the points that need to be understood.
And I know the points that can’t really be understood at the moment (but that’s normal, it’s not supposed to be understood yet).
I answer some of your questions:
– Lee Lim from 2020 dies, killed by Lee Lim from 1994. Lee Lim of 1994 knows about it and won’t stupidly come back to die this way. So, Lee Lim will survive in 2020. The bad guy isn’t eliminated!
– Lee Gon changes the timeline, so Tae Eul knows him before he comes. Here, the hug in the final scene is initiated by Tae Eul instead of Lee Gon. Lee Gon is changing the timeline. How is this compatible with Lee Gon traveling through time to the future? Here, it’s a point that is mysterious at the moment and there’s no need to know or understand it yet. If the Lee Gon doesn’t go back in time when it’s supposed to, there will be two Lee Gon (unless there’s another special rule of type, one of them disappears). See the movie Primer for this kind of dingus.
– Why can Lee Gon and Lee Lim travel in time? That is said in the episode: because the two flute pieces are in the in-between world simultaneously.
– Identical rescue scene: yes, so what? At that moment, it was part of a timeline without paradox, which does not change. But this will not remain the case afterwards. There is no evidence that this rescue scene will not be replayed once more, by the way. With a second partner, why not.
As for the rest, I’d rather keep my mouth shut, because I’d be likely to say some really unpleasant things…
Wouldn’t LL remember such a huge event as his future self coming back and then brutally murdering him?
Doesn’t that mean he will:
1. realize time travel is possible a lot sooner than before
2. he needs to go and kill child LG instead of trying to convince his own past self
Its 2.37 am and am sleepless because my tired brain cells are going on overdrive!
Thank you for explaining @Alxmar97 but now i wonder how would Luna know where the portal is unless she already has been time travelling but she has no flute!
@syd omo the father of SJ is the face of Prince B?! I have to rewatch tomorrow then..
@TD i think TE was bandaged up because of the gas explosion maybe ? I did find it weird that SJ had a bandage in the ambulance carrying his double but lost it in the next scene. I think we are watching fragments of different time periods! I love what you said her soul recognised him… and how far he had to come to her.
I agree LG double mum holds the key. Another hole to fall in hehe.
@lale8 yes the photo burnt and the plant sprouted and i didnt understand that part too gosh i can almost tear my hair out.
@packmule2 @GGB – I do not believe there was a time-freeze when Luna & LG were in the hotel. I made a shortened video of that segmen showing that TE
1. blinked when LG was looking at his reflection in the mirror
2. moved when LG was collapsing
https://youtu.be/_cnNbN0auaw
Also we have to consider that since the time-freeze are close to almost 2 hours by then, LG could have died if there was indeed one.
Thanks, mychoiyoung. 👍👍
Saw your Lake Shore comment earlier. I liked Lake Shore. It’s one of those time paradox movie that ended happily. Not sure about the original one though, but the Keanu Reaves version ended well.
@alexis not IF this is the first time he time travels. But if so, how could Dark Knight LG Episode 1 time travel? Did he have the whole flute?
So many questions 😩
The Lake House sure was the first thing that came to my mind upon seeing LG’s scribbles on the phone booth. Questions answered but more questions sprung. Ottoke?! Could Yoyo Girl indeed be the embodiment of the flute. It was a bit sad when she said she wants to become whole. I don’t want to waste whatever is left of my brain cells now by thinking of more theories. Just gonna wait for KES to drop more bombs tomorrow.
@Alxmar97 @carolstar I’m going to try to explain the time travel bit here because my brain is spinning & I need to think aloud. Its 3am here so please tell me if I make sense (darn you KES, for giving me insomnia!):
The Manpasijeok allows for movement along 2 axes: The TIME axis, and the SPACE axis. Moving along the time axis means being able to move forwards or backwards in time (ie. time travel). Moving along the space axis means being able to move from one place to another (in this show, it means moving from one world to another, KOC & ROK). I think they are referring to the Minkowski diagram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minkowski_diagram) when talking about the 2 axes, the horizontal axis represents distance (ie. space), and the vertical axis represents time. This is why yoyo girl says “both the axes for time and space simultaneously form inside the gate” when the Manpasijeok becomes whole. Meaning when the flute is whole, the carrier of the flute can both cross worlds (space), as well as time (time travel).
We know that before Ep 14, both LL & LG are unable to time travel. This is because each of them had only half of the flute. As LG explains “The time axis can only be formed, when the manpasijeok becomes whole. With only half of it, I can only move laterally.” He says “laterally” as he can only move along the space axis and cross between worlds (as the space axis is the horizontal axis, so he’s just moving along sideways).
However, by some huge coincidence, we have LL & LG crossing their portals at the same time. This means the flute becomes whole. And because of that, they are now both able to travel along both the time AND space axes, and they both do so. LG crosses from ROK to KOC, LL was in KOC, crosses to ROK, but then u-turns and goes back to KOC (you see them walking towards each other in opposite directions, but later you see LL as a reflection of LG and both are running in the same direction, towards KOC). Both also cross time and end up in 1994 for different reasons: LG to save himself, LL to warn himself. As yoyo girl explains “when the Manpasijeok becomes whole, it takes you to the moment when you wish to save yourself”. Both ended up at the same moment in 1994 as both wanted to save themselves then, but for different reasons.
So the 1994 LL kills the 2020 LL, and 2020 LG saves the 1994 LG. The problem now is, this joining of the flute was a once-off event, & it’s likely not to happen again, esp not when 2020 LL is dead. So the 2020 LG is stuck in 1994 after saving himself. He can still cross between worlds as he still has his half of the flute. But he can no longer move along the time axis so he cannot time travel. So the only way for LG to get back to his present time in 2020 is to go the conventional way: let time run its natural course.
You see LG crossing the portal back and forth between worlds, and he starts to notice the dates:
-He crosses from KOC to ROK, & notices the date is Dec 20 1994.
-He then crosses from ROK to KOC, and sees his 1994 self on TV mourning his father’s death (I can’t recall, is that supposed to be 6 days after the regicide?)
-Then he hops from KOC back to ROK, and sees the date is now Dec 22 1994 on the newspaper.
So LG is reminded that time flows much faster within the inter-dimensional portal. He just needs to go in for a while, & a day will pass. He calculates that he needs to wait out 26 years to get himself to his present time in 2020, but now he realizes he has a cheat sheet to get him there faster: use the interdimensional portal. He calculates “I have to travel through 26 years to get to 2020. That’s roughly four months inside the inter-dimensional gate.”
[This is the part that had me scratching my head as the math didn’t tally. From what I recall, previously he said that 1 minute in the inter-dimensional gate was 1 hour outside. So,
1 day in the IDG = 60 days outside
6 days in IDG (approx a year) = 360 days outside (approx 1 year)
26 x 6 days in IDG = Approx 26 years outside
26×6= 156 = Approx 5.2 months, not 4 months as he said. Hmm.]
Anyway, ignoring this discrepancy, what I understand is that he then stays in the IDG for calculated periods of time to make time pass faster, then pops out at certain times into KOC/ROK to set things into place so that things run their course like how they have so far. (Poor guy has to be on the run for 5 months to sort everything! I wonder what does he eat during that time. And he must be repeating Euler’s number countless times to keep track of time inside the IDG!) He talks to Yeong, ensures Luna has access to the race course so he gets to find the portal…
However he also tries to change the past in 2 ways: he tips the police about the murders of Ji Hun’s family, and he inserts himself into TE’s memories. His changing these events then causes a simultaneous change in the memories of those in the present (2020), hence TE starts having memories of him in the past. This means she remembers him by the time they meet in Gwanghwamun square, hence the hug from her. My guess is his tip-off to the police may just save Ji Hun, though the police said he has already drowned. Because LG only made these small changes, we do not have a huge shift in the time-line, most of what he does is to ensure that things happen the way they have happened so far.
@carolstar: I think it’s very confusing because there is the past timeline (events in 1994) running alongside the present timeline (events in 2020). The 1994 LL kills the 2020 LL, so effectively it just means if LL was buried, his grave would read as 27 Feb 1951-2020. He will do his terrible deeds from the regicide, through 1994 all the way to 2020, but then it ends there as he is killed then. 1994 LL killing 2020 LL is still explainable. If it was the other way around (ie 2020 LL kills 1994 LL), then it wouldn’t be possible due to the grandfather paradox. The present LL in 2020 will not be able to exist if his past self in 1994 is killed.
@summerwind you mention travel forward, and @wenchateur you mention travel to the future. Actually there isn’t any travel to the future at all? I think the confusion is because we use the terms “future LG” when we talk about the kiss in Episode 10, or at the regicide. It probably becomes easier to understand if we take the 2020 events as the present, and everything else as the past. LG only time travels twice I think, and both involve him going backwards in time. He goes from 2020 back to 1994 to save himself, and he goes from some other point later in the story, back to the scene in Ep 10 when he visits TE. TE says he is from the future as he comes from a timeline that is later… but essentially LG is travelling BACK in time to visit her.
LG is now relying on the normal flow of time to get back to his present time in 2020, while coming from the events of 1994.. but he “cheats” by using the inter dimensional gate to make those 26 years move along faster.
One more thing that troubles me is JY….
1) he does not let TE in to see LG
2) he does not call her to let her know the king is gone to pursue the moment of treason
3) he did not protect her because Luna got to her – she is effectively on her own with some support fro EnSup
4) why did he not track down Luna; who he was interested in back in the Kingdom and who at this point already tried to poison the king….
I think that this was a missed opportunity to give us more JY/ENSup action and more emotional touch points between LG and TE.
My first time commenting here! Thanks for all the amazing theories put forth so far, both in the posts and comments.
My initial response to ep14 was ?!?!? To what extent is LG altering his past and how would that impact the events of the future??
Currently, my theory is that each time time travel occurs, it creates a diversion in history at that point in time, and another parallel timeline is created. When the current LG we know (LG2) travelled back, he saved his younger self (LG3), and made the decision to reach out to younger TE as well, planting himself in her memories. This may not have happened when LG1 (in ep1) saved LG2. LG1, for some reason, may have decided not to appear to younger TE, or could not meet her, or did not survive after saving LG2. The only event that is identical is LG saving himself, and the flute being split into half – all the events that occur after are direct consequences of actions LG takes. Kinda fits with the whole fate / destiny narrative, imo.
@JT Glad to se eI’m not the only one who wondered how he was handling food for four plus months in no mans land… a day or two yeah,,, but no food grows there… figured his forays out also include food hauls 😀
So, one of the followers of LL/ traitors that was named by LG to the Royal Guards was Kang Hyeong-uk. Could this be Shin Jae’s KOC Father? That would explain why Shin Jae’s KOC family gave him up to be transferred to ROK, if both parents were followers of LL and would do anything to help him. It doesn’t explain why the switch was necessary though?
I’m starting to liken yo-yo boy/girl to being a manifestation of the manpasikjeok. When he said he ‘just wants to be whole again’ it made me think…yep maybe he’s the flute😂😭
Or am I just losing.
Hi!
First time commenting but ever since I came across this site, it has opened my eyes soooo much, you guys are so konwledgeable/cool!
@JT7
Sorry if my choice of words is confusing, by travel forward I mean let the time run it’s course (26 years) while waiting inside the in between land. So you are correct that’s not technically time traveling.
Thanks @ JT7. That’s it!
@JT7
Thanks. That really helped. It is logical.
However, I think LG placing himself in JTE’s memory and in JY’s memory would mean that he altered history.
JY might not understand why or the what but he knows who LG is chasing now. He also knows that LG will meet JTE, knows something of Kang and LG’s Korean mom. So is this why JY was following LG’s Korean Mom in the lift?
Is this why he relaxes around SJ but not JTE?
JTE hugs LG on meeting but she also repeats a variant of her internal dialogue (one that she has before saying I love you to LG), so would this not mean that further events change?
Also, LR constantly tries to poison LG (3 attempts in the timeline we have seen). Is it because he remembers his own warning? LR2020 does not tell LR1994 that his young nephew will time travel or that the flute in one piece can help him time travel.
However, LR would remember that he killed himself! So… I don’t know!
My wish: I want it to be a time loop as I want the earlier love story to be justified. I for one found the pauses and staring in episode 2 and 3 a bit off and not very emotional. I did not find episode 10 opening sequence of JTE in tears and running to LG very convincing because in their current timeline they have been together from Sept 2019 till March 2020 (at least) and they have met at least once a month or more. This is more than what long distance couples in love can afford. Yup there is uncertainty in their meeting but the script failed to emphasise on that for me and they were not separated for that long!! So… yes I need the loop for my satisfaction 😀
If the timeline we saw was one loop by LG then I wish we had gotten to this a bit faster as I would have liked to see two different loops playing out…
But yes… why that particular day do the two decide to go into the portal and back? Why do the two heat the flute on that day? Like someone said in the comment section at least from LG side we don’t see him doing much to change the future on that night! Or he just has to go back only to save himself while the resolution will only be in the future in 2020 when the flute is joined?
Is this the Schroeder’s cat (did I get that right?) at play? (Not that I get the principle but it seemed apt— seems to be there but not there. Ok ignore.. this is me showing my zero science abilities)
My rant: like someone was joking the threats seem to be perceived than real (no one has died and everyone who gets hit heals up in a few days — it can’t be more time as they haven’t even shown a year pass by)
JTE keeps watering the seeds but it has been less than 3 months since she has sown them, no? #IamCynical
Btw SJ foreshadowed his death in the new memory from 2016. SJ is definitely connected to royal family else Why so much of his background?
JY was really guilty and you could see that while he was waiting to hear the doctor’s verdict. I felt sorry for him in this episode as I could see his frustration: his king is in a land where he can’t protect him and the lady who he loves is just plain weird! Her lookalike is a threat and as he doesn’t know how to distinguish between the two so keep anyone with that face away! And first thing the love of his life asks when he wakes up and returns back to him is: does JTE know about this!!!
Luna wants the flute because she thinks she will be able to live. Also, I think in this series Luna is supposed to be the dark twin. JTE and Luna in the stabbing scene are wearing the colours they represent.
Luna wants what JTE has and she is bitter about fate giving her nothing, but JTE everything. Because Luna is in pain and dying she is even more bitter. And JTE doesn’t want to lose her identity to Luna.
What I found weird was why was JTE shocked on seeing Luna in light?? She just saw her in the street with her family so there was no shock value in it.
And I wonder why does PM want the flute? Isn’t she smart though? She knows how to safeguard her loved one, her mom.
Not sure where my last post went but wanted to add:
– @pm3 I enjoyed your theories a lot. I didn’t always get it all or agree but they were wonderful to read. How you connect the dots as you do is awe-inspiring! Thank you.
– @JT7 I did think about LG and food too 🙂
Then I realized how biased I am as I never gave it much thought when I figured out that LR has lived within that realm 😀
– the tree post was shared with a few friends who don’t see Kdramas but enjoy gardening. They liked reading about East Asian trees and folklores. Thank you to everyone who contributed to that.
Ok can’t think more. I am happy today as I really liked this episode simply because on its own it is my favourite. I still don’t get everything but that is ok 🙂
I am ready for episode 15! (Did Luna get the flute in this episode? Again I see Luna and JTE sitting together after everything!!)
@pkml3 @mychoiyoung I liked that show as well, the one I watched was called the “Lake House”. That was romance done well and the tension to keep him from dying was intense.
@noone On JTE being shocked seeing Luna in light, JTE must have remembered how her Mom Ahn Bong-hui (Ep 5; 1:04:03) looked like when she had cancer back when she was little. JTE said “her face really looms similar to mine.”
Episode 14 was really good! The only scene that seemed a little lost there was the explosion scene. Everything else fitted nicely. Fate girl is the flute?! Actually makes sense! She always says “I warn people of danger and defeat the enemy” which, in fact, fits with the flute’s legend.
Am I the only one scared of the romantic scenes in the preview? It’s the second to last episode 😭😭
This episode is another KES hommage to a another famous French film, “La Jette” by Chris Marker. Tons of stuff has been written about this film geeks love it to pieces. You can see clips on you tube but you have to rent the whole film on amazon or itunes, It is about 30 minutes long, Well worth it. KES majored in creative writing at the Art Institute of Souel, I’m guessing with the intention of becoming a screenwriter, (or maybe it was fate). “La Jette” is a “must see” at art schools. It is the mother of all apocalypse movies and a giant leap forward in sifi. Sometimes KES is so delicate with her imagery and sometimes in your face with the human condition and the dark side of it at that. Here we are at the end of the drama and I finally get what has been keeping me off balance. There are parts where she is truly walking on the side of experimental filmmaking and other times she is deep in the groove of fantasy fiction. It gives the whole production the gloss of a lucid dream. The thing about lucid dreaming is being conscious of your dreaming while you are dreaming. (It sounds a little nuts but you’ve got to try it). In the middle of your nightmare you can create order out of chaos according to your creative will and make a good dream. They are your thoughts after all so you can do with them as you please. Dreaming plays a role in SJ’s life big time. So I feel like KES is doing a lucid dream with the imagery of a number of books; King Arthur; Alice Through the Looking Glass; A Brief History of Time, films like the Red Balloon and La Jette; Korean folk tales; legends; erudite poets, and national treasures and all with a purpose. So I have to ask the question “Why is she throwing all of this at me? Then bonk, it hit me, The HUGE banner at the Art Museum: the Relics of the Kingdom. KES is showing us the relics if the mind like a museum of dreams. I feel this coming together according to her creative will with a master stroke. I also see that bitchesoverdrama is teasing all of this apart with clear eyed finesse. Well done bitches. I love KES work, she is so smart, and can she spin a yarn.
Was Prince B’s son one of the conspirators whom 2020 LG confronted in 1994? I thought Prince B’s family members lived abroad.
When did Ji Hun’s mom become friendly with Yoyo kid?
I’m sorry but there’s something I didn’t get well. Isn’t the present Lee gon the one who survived in the 1994 coup so why did he have to go back to the past and save himself again??. Since he also didn’t make big changes?!!
@pkml3
Ep 13 end where Luna sits quietly while LG has his epiphany on who his saviour was, was likely Luna waiting for the poison to take effect.
There was nothing further she had to do, other than steal the whip. She thought (I guess reasonably) that it would be on his person, and wanted him to be passed out so that she could search him without resistance.
Fortunately, he did not have the whip with him, therefore JY’s return frustrated her theft.
The thought occurs to me that the flute pieces are highly elusive. Not only does Luna fail miserably, so too do LG and LL. LL practically killed Child LG and can’t find the missing flute half. Adult LG tells TE that he would consider going back in time to stop LL before the flute was cut, but he got into 1994 a few minutes too late.
If as Fate says to Ji Hun’s mother, Song Jeong Hye, that the flute would return them to when they wanted to save themselves, then flute or Fate has just blasted their own chances of getting the flute pieces rejoined, because LL and LG would always have divergent agendas and different things they’d want to save.
One would think that finally being in the same place at the same time in 1994, they’d have had the best opportunity to retrieve the flute when it was still in one piece, but that totally fell through.
One wonders if LG knew that LL had traveled back to 1994 as well. If from new history being made, he’d know 2020 LL had been killed. There is also the little matter of paradox with a dead LL in the King’s room while a living LL is running away.
My pet peeve about this Ep 14 is that it took much exposition on the part of Fate who is (suddenly) chatting with Song Jeong Hye, for us to know the working logic of time travel in No Man’s Land, when the flute is wholly in it. We also see LG and LL either making great deductive leaps, (suddenly) knowing that they could go back in time at that moment, as if hearing the flute when in NMLand gave them supernatural knowledge or, they just ran to wherever and found themselves in 1994 and knew exactly what to do.
I guess show couldn’t come up with a way that they’d be able to find out logically step by step, and ran out of time. I expect (or hope) that Ep 15 will show us how Fate ends up chatting with Song Jeong Hye.
I wrote separately in my own notes, on the “loose ends” about Jo Yeong and this ep adds more question marks about him. Another set of question marks about the ambivalent Prince Buyeong is also somewhat explained, or the foundation for good guesswork has been laid.
I feel the need to check up on stuff in Ep 15 before thinking more erroneously than I’ve done already!! 🙄 Catch ya later!
@mychoiypung I’ve watched The Lake House too and liked it, the Sandra Bullock/Keanu Reeves version. I found it romantic and was glad it had a happy ending. I didn’t know it was a remake of a Korean movie.
After reading all the spoilers here, my brain is already confused. I’m going to wat eps.14-15 together just to reduce anxiety somewhat😰
There you go @packmule3. Proof that you are “psychic”. 😂 Just like our “psychic” FlowerGarden pair in HP. You should set up a fortune telling 🔮 booth on Shallow Island at the after party. It would be a hit. 😂
Hi all! Love all the comments and insights.
I’ve been mulling over a few things in addition to some of the questions above.
1. JTE has a lot of wounds when she is stabbed by Luna. How come in the preview for episode 15 she looks so… well in the hospital? Is this actually Luna? I can’t tell but it freaks me out!
2. Will LG2 (the one we’ve known) need to disappear or self-sacrifice in order to let the King (the young LG1 who now meets JTE in 2019 Gwanghwamun without memories of LG2) live and reign? How can JTE be meeting the LG1 and LG2 (the one whom she has all the memories with) at the same time?
3. The flute has to be whole again for time travel to occur but we know it will become whole again because LG2 went back for the forget-me-not scene. Is this because LG2 needs to disappear as above? Or because JTE has died after 2022 (the clip in front of the bookstore)? Again he is wearing the most “glorious moment” outfit… so does he mean to sacrifice is glory? A bit of a Christian over text to me.
4. Where is SJ moving his doppelgänger to? In the ambulance…? What did he need to prove about his identity?
I usually watch Kdramas simplistically. I started watching TKEM only last week and the storyline intrigued me. And to understand the show better I started googling around to understand the theories in the show (geeky me!) till I found your page; which really really helped me a lot in understanding the concept of the show better. Thank you so much!
Three things that bewildered me:
(1) Why did LG gave the race track key to Luna?
(2) Luna stabbed TJE but the knife was given by Yoyo kid to TJE when she was kidnapped by LL to KOC.
Not sure if (1) and (2) are linked.
(3) The 1994 LL killed 2020 LL but if we looked at Ep 1 LL walked in with blood on his shirt and face. Could LL be in timeloop as well?
For those who liked Lake House, do catch the original movie it was based on. I’ve not watched Lake House but I’ve watched Il Mare, it still remains as one of my fav Korean movies! It’s sad yet so poetic and beautiful… and it’s a happy ending. 😊 Storyline is not as convoluted as TKEM too!
They have the full version on YouTube with eng subs: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Pdf2koK21mU (thought this would be a good filler next week when we await the TKEM finale!)
Thank you @JT7. As I mentioned to you, I’ve watched Lake house. Though I remembered it as Glass House because well, it’s been 14 years and that house was of glass 😂 Happy ending yo !
@Nashita @pkml3
1) Race track key – he wanted to ensure that when Luna considered her escape options, that she would choose to run through the race-track. He wanted his past self to see her and follow her into the bamboo forest where he’d first encounter the portal.
2) It is probably another knife. Luna left everything of KOC in KOC and got fresh stuff for ROK.
3) I was thinking about this but long analysis below … I think no time loop. However 2020 LL coming to see 1994 LL added more blood on his face!
I too was thinking about the blood on Ep 1 LL and the Ep 14 LL. I did notice that 1 point of consistency was that although his minions were the ones shooting and he was not slashing anyone along the way with the sword, already he had blood on him before he reached the King. From Ep 14, only then do know it’s the blood of 2020 LL.
Knowing that he killed his 2020 self, I don’t think 1994 LL will want to go back to the past to speak to his past self. If he loops, he should just go and kill Child LG himself. But it is a point of puzzlement, that he should have blood on his collar in Ep 1. We are not shown if he used the sword to kill anyone along the way. His minions were shooting all before him as he walked in behind.
Similarities / differences: Re-watching Ep 1, the blood is more on his collar and not on his face. In Ep 14, it streaked his face and was hardly on his collar.
Possible sequence of action in Ep 14 … LL is in the room where the Red King’s robe is displayed. 2020 LL comes into the room with his umbrella. 1994 LL grabs the umbrella and draws the sword to kill his future self. With more (unnecessary slashing) the blood splatters on his face. He drops the bloody sword.
From Ep 1 the sequence was LL is in the other room (bed chamber) looking at the sword. Minion Kyung Mo tells him that the King is in Cheonjongo. The big difference is that he has no blood on him in Ep 1. He leaves with sword in hand.
Cut to: Ceiling glass shatters, everyone is looking up while LG walks in. 1 shot from his gun directs their attention to him. Camera is focused on action with the raised dias with LL on it, in the background, and yet…after his shot,
Ep 1 – he runs to the right relative to the camera.
Ep 14 – he runs to the left relative to the camera. (I feel this is more accurate. Why the difference? Camera work/editing gaffe?)
However when camera is behind LL on the dias looking out, LG is running across from left to right in both Ep 1 and 14.
He grabs a minion as a human shield and shoots (looks like he can’t really aim, the gun is pointing a bit too high to hit anyone.)
In both shootouts, minion Hyung Moo takes the bullet in left shoulder for LL. Ep 14 has an additional shot of the bullet hitting the pillar.
Half the flute drops. LL is on the floor.
LG runs towards the glass fronted alcoves and crashes into one to escape the bullets. Ep 14 shows more ie he hides behind the wall of the alcove and changes cartridges.
Ep 1 shows that Child LG takes the half flute.
Both eps show LL looking for the piece of flute and the alarm going off.
Ep 1 shows a shooter (LG?) walking with arm out and shooting. Child LG seems to ‘see’ him? We are given a look at his all black shoes and smoke from I think, shells of the bullets dropping on the floor.
Ep 14 suddenly has LG outside of the alcove, lifting a minion by his collar in front of him, shooting him, going into a crouch as he drops him and then rising with gun aimed to shoot.
Ep 1 just has him rising from a crouch and shooting.
In both Eps this makes LL decide to leave.
Ep 14, LG goes up to the dias, kneels at his father’s side and closes his dead eyes. Then he goes to Child LG to check for a pulse.
Ep 1 LG goes only to the Child LG.
In both Eps, the child pulls out the ID Card.
Ep 14, LG walks out and meets HCL Noh. He identifies himself as her king.
LG: “You saw me that day? You won’t believe me, but I am your King.”
HCL: “You are my king? How dare you!”
(He pulls down his turtleneck and shows her his face.)
LG: “I am deeply indebted to you. And as you advised, I am following my destiny. So please just let me go. Please” (He leaves.)
Outside he gives the names of the traitors to the royal guards and gets away. He follows a trail of blood and encounters a young Lee Seung Heon/Lee Seong Hoon (son of Prince Buyeong) who has let LL through the gate and is bolting it from the inside. LG shoots him in his right knee, picks up the bullet/shell and runs out.
Contrary to so many other wonderful people here, I have no questions. Because I’ve not been watching this series at an intellectual level.
According to me, the part of this episode that is supposed to crush your heart (and not brain) is that LG has been alone all this while. In the NMLand where he’s trying to spend as much time as possible, without any other human or wind or sun or rain or time to rush to TE in 2020. He’s solely relying on his head to get the time right. That’s too much to expect from one’s brain ! Social Isolation is THE worst punishment in real world! That’s why TE, her memories and the little moments he allows himself to sneak out and meet her are his Polaris. His star that directs him in TIME not in space. Okay you are five, so it must be so and so year and so on. And whenever he does do that, his flute falls apart more and more and he looses track of time as well (because it flows differently on both sides). That is too much to bear!
I feel that last scene which confused so many is because LG made a mistake. He missed the time point of his original meeting with TE. Because he’s confused and lost. And this is not the first time he lost track of time within NMland as we all know.
I hope TE cuts him some much needed slack in EP 15 and hugs him, cuddles him and reassures him with all her might.
As the GIFs so aptly selected by @pm3 demonstrate, he’s been waiting for too long, too alone in a messed up reality. He deserves all the affection from TE.
Sorry, a clarification about Social Isolation with respect to the Pandemic. What we are doing is not social isolation but merely distancing. Because we’re with family, allowed to keep in touch with outside world via all means etc. Social Isolation as a punishment is horrendous. It’s basically like LG stuck all by himself in NMland without anything or anyone or any contact with outside world. It’s like the cell of a prison where he’s trapped.
With Ep 14, the palace would not only have had to explain a dead LL in the palace who looks the same as the living LL who ran away, they would also have 2 swords.
Fortunately the half of flute that belonged to LL disintegrated ala Goblin’s death. Which begs the question, is it the case that more than 1 instance of the flute cannot co-exist in the same space? Or was it LL’s death that ensured the flute totally vanished. In LG’s case, part of it disintegrated. If he loses it all, he cannot universe hop/time travel, period.
If the flute cannot co-exist in multiple instances, then the umbrella stand of many umbrellas, probably did not have the flute. That seems unlikely as well as this Ep showed LL’s first foray into time travel. I feel that his death should close the loop, but I can’t explain how come his 1994 self still had blood on his collar before he killed the King.
@agdr03 !! Have you been watching?? I need to weep about this social isolation of a lost and confused LG for months on end 😭 I can’t remain on Shallow Island if LG is suffering so much at an emotional level. I’m out in the sea on a small cannoe right now mulling with some grapes because the vodka got over yesterday night.
@Arihsi I’m with you in this pain of watching LG wait for an eternity in isolation on NMLand just so he can set things rights and go back to TE. How sad his expression was when the flute was disintegrating as ge knew he couldn’t go back to JTE..I almost had tears in my eyes. Such a lonely existence of knowing everything that’s about to happen and not being able to stop it… such a great burden to bear for no fault of his own. I really hope the writer sets things right for LG at the end unlike what happened to Jin Woo in MOA, because if the honourable hero does not get justice and happiness at the end, then there’s no closure in my mind. It simply isn’t fair to let LG face everything alone since childhood, trying his best to set things right and not get his happily ever after somehow. I don’t think my mind can accept that because a fair world requires balance.
@JT7 Thanks for the link to Il Mare🙂 I really like Lake House and would love to watch the original Korean version.
@Jennifer
I will pick (2) to give my take.
I saw this diagram somewhere, was it drawn by packmule3… I really can’t remember. Anyway in it you have a linear line and then LG jumping in at different points in the line thus you have many semi circles on that line.
Now if I were to apply it to our case, LG when he wakes up after being poisoned says he heard the flute again and he has to go. So current LG is missing from 2020.
LG2020 goes back to save himself and then we have LG1994. So now LG1994 is growing up like LG2020 did in his past. LG2020 has to wait and try to do the math to come out of the Mysterious land such that LG1994 grown up To the point when LG was poisoned and went missing. Then LG2020 and LG1994 Timelines merge, so we only have one LG?
However, this conversation is consistent with loop explanation. LG has to go back as long as LR goes back? If LG is sure that his past self is safe then he wouldn’t go back to that point and maybe through a future battle end LR.
Going back however is a super risky venture as stated by the yoyo child. LG however is going back to save himself and no the flute! He can get lost and if he does then does that mean that there would be no LG in the current timeline… according to my logic yes but then I am not a science person so my logic maybe flawed.
Also the changes LG initiates according to me are huge. His voice recording if available in the records would in a new timeline be available and influence JTE when she takes him to the police station. LG and JY meeting will colour JY’s behavior. Was this behavior already colored is that why JY is following LG’s Korean Mom or does LG do it by meeting JY in this time travel (I can’t tell and that will tell if we are on one time time travel only or a loop)? LG says that Lady Noh met him that night, does this mean that this has happened before? The gun shot to hurt Doctor Uncle’s son who helped LR keeps the son away from the kingdom but current baby LG will not know that this cousin was involved in treason so the cycle is repeated?
Picked from different people that I have read: LG goes back to save himself. That is his motivation and reason. His reason to want to come back and not start an alternate timeline is JTE.
Loop logic as of now (episode 14) is dicey. As of episode 14 we know there was one time travel and the author may or may not go for a loop. My brain 🤯🤯🤯 so I cant tell.
Hello, i’m a new fan of this site and want to ask a question.
In 14 eps, i got confused about the timeline.
As long as i remember, the treason night was around winter in december 1994 , and lee gon who got poisoned by luna is in spring 2020 (cmiiw). My question is :
How could LG and LR precisely assuming each other would get going to the past that time? Both LG and LR know half manpasijeok can’t take them time travel to the past, right?
Or it just an absolute fate by the god/manpasijeok it self?
Sorry for my bad english, hope you understand what i mean
@ransomed heart
Thank you. It makes sense but JTE’s mom in family pictures does not look that much like her… you know what I mean? Anyway… it is ok. I like your explanation so I go with it 🙂
Thank you for Lake house and I’ll Mare recommendation. Will check it out.
@Iamastonished you astonish and astound me with your thoughts 🙂 thank you for the beautiful description— Museum of Dreams reminds me of Pamuk. Will check out La Jette sometime soon.
@GB your shot details and point about LR+blood splash and LR2020 deadbody… please accept my 90degree bow.
Thank you so much @JT7! Yes it’s easier to understand with your explanation. However with LG2020 changing little bits of past memories of both TE n his own history… And you get to that moment in G square with Maximus and she hugs him first because she recognised LG already…what happens to their original first memories of their time together? Will it disappear or will they hold both sets of memories? Wait…did anyone ever watch Nine nine nine travels it had similar vibes! It confused me to no end then too but thank goodness I now have this site to go for clarification!
I watched it again and SJ father does not have the same face as Prince B’s son.
Haha I too was curious as to how LG survived in the ID gate it’s still 4 plus months inside and he couldnt have showered too hahaha!
Thank you for the link I will definitely watch Il Mare. I vaguely remember Lakehouse that @Mychoiyoung mentioned.
Loved that telephone box scene where TE had a new memory and LG’s writing appeared !
@Iamastonished what you wrote gave me something new to chew on…ah a Museum of dreams!
Thanks too to @GB and the rest of the lovely people here who broke it down for me to digest easily.
If I may ask a silly question.. how do you all remember all the information that was written by different people here and their @names too? I am new to this so typing out words is still very slow for me and sorting out names and what they wrote even. I had to scroll back so many times to remember names and what you all wrote!
I salute all of you for the fantastic writings and theories you have expounded!
Can’t wait for tonight’s next chapter of TE and LG! I pray it will go easy on my fried brains.
Getting some ideas out before Ep. 15 throws us for a loop:
LL’s death was cool and all, but it poses an issue. First Savior LG didn’t have the whole flute, presumably. So First Savior LG would have needed a partner to create the time axis and go back in time from 2020. But our LL (that died in Ep. 14) obviously didn’t kill his own time traveling self on the night of treason. Otherwise he would have been more careful meeting his 1994 self. Three possibilities that make sense of this are (1) Original LL did something different – he didn’t just go straight to himself like he did in the round we just saw; (2) First Savior LG traveled with someone else who also had to “save themselves” on the night of treason; or (3) First Savior LG did have the whole flute. I think there’s a fair chance we time travel again to the night of treason.
Lady Noh eased up on the night of treason when she saw LG’s face. I think she recognized LG from her time in ROK.
LG needs a thief on his side to get the Flute back from LL. If I was a time traveling LG I would be recruiting Luna. Hopefully we haven’t seen the end of her story. She looked teary when stabbing TE. Very random, but Luna wears a hair tie on her right hand in her scene with LG – after 2016, our TE from 2020 wears one on her left.
JY???? The writers have been holding JY at the wings of this story since Ep. 8, enough that I now feel forced to be suspicious. Either TE is a master of subterfuge or JY is a traitor. I can believe that TE didn’t want JY there when she met Luna – I feel like TE wants to help Luna, so she didn’t want JY there for the confrontation even if it was an idiotic thing to do. She might have tried shrugging him off. But JY is a world-class bodyguard and has no excuse. He should have been there, tailing TE or Luna. We’ve been shown how good he is at guarding TE when he (reluctantly) puts effort into it.
Is LG’s obelisk on the logo? I’m looking at the I. It’s broken at a slant on both sides, top (which shines) and bottom, which puts itself back together as the clock on the logo turns back. LL’s obelisks are symmetrical. It’s only LG’s that are asymmetrical, with one of them broken. They look to me like the shape that TE and LG cast when they look at each other, tall and small. TE is somehow tied to the Flute. Yo yo kid favors her as far as we know, and it’s her picture that disappears and her plant that starts growing the moment the flute pieces join in No Man’s Land.
@GB, thanks for replying to my questions. 🙂
I’m still catching up on all the theories on this page. Your review and analysis comparing the 2 episodes shoot out is admirable.
But your comment on “looks like he can’t aim, shooting too high” makes me recall what TJE said to him after she got him the stuffed doll, along the lines of you don’t look before you shoot, you look after your shoot. Or maybe I’m just overlinking things. *shrugs*
Btw any theories why the Catholic Church is the only same thing in both worlds? Was one built to mirror the other?
One thing that left me scratching my head was the photograph and the plant sprouting part. The only thing I could think of was that LG said living things sink there. So, the seeds she planted were growing on LL’s side? But it doesn’t explain the photograph disintegrating 🤔
@Leerimslave
This is one of those things I’m putting down as guesswork until Ep 15 or 16 can show us more to confirm this. From the show I guess that LR/LL figured out (again another unexplained phenomena) that LG had been his own saviour. If an adult LG could go back in time to save Child LG, then there was time-travel. Since the flute gave them universe travel, LL/LR would naturally assume it also gives time travel.
LR knew and believed the Legend of the Manpasikjeok more than LG seemed to have known or cared. We hear LL/LR say in Ep 1
In Ep 14, 1994 LL looks at the umbrella and notices the flute at the end.
LL knows the legend and accepted that if his future self is there through time travel, then the rest of the legend of the other world must be true too.
As for LG, we know he knew it had to be possible because of the ID Card from the future.
@Carolstar
I don’t remember much!!! I open 2 pages or instances of the blog page on my screen and read while I write LOL.
@Nashita
I LOLed at that scene. Maybe LG picked up a few tips from her because when he held the human shield, he looked like he was quite unable to see his targets too.
What she says about filling the void between me and the target. Made me think of filling the void of the ‘inter-dimensional portal’ (IDP or my No Man’s Land/NML). LG has to travel straight as a bullet without aiming too hard to get to TE. 😆
Thanks @GB, @JT7, @Alxmar97, @mychoiyoung and all the regulars for answering these questions. 🌹🌼🌹🌼
I trusted that you would welcome the newbies and field their questions. You didn’t let me down. 😍😇😍Thank you!!
I’ll try to watch Ep 13 later and catch up with y’all. Right now, sleep 😴 calls.
Enjoy Ep 14!!!
Ep16 preview shows LG and JY at the regicide night. 🤯
😂 So…after how many times of looping around does he finally figure out that he has the Unbreakable Sword and a Zero-the-Heroine as “part of the plan” — whatever that plan may be? He can’t be a Lone Ranger for Eternity. 🙂
KES is cutting it too close. She needs to wrap this up well.
Good night and sweet dreams @packmule3!!
The No Man’s Land (NML) or inside the Inter-dimensional Gate: Figuring out what we are seeing from Ep 14.
11:25 minutes – The portals/obelisks light up. LG and LL stand before their respective obelisks. There is the sound of thunder. LL and LG enter the NML at their respective portals and are in their own respective dimensions inside it.
We see from this that the different halves of the flute, offer 2 separate and parallel paths between both worlds.
In his dimension, LG to us, appears to be standing right way up, LL, to us, appears to be upside down. This is what the opening credits showed us of the mirror image reflections of the KOC/ROK, the merging of worlds at a point where buildings changed from ROK to KOC while joined at the base. They had looked like flower petals spiraling open and close in that opening credits.
Thus LL and LG walk in through their respective portals but cannot see each other. They are in the same ‘spot/place’ but in different dimensions. LG has red balloons all over the place, and the coin that ES had flicked is still spinning in his NML. LL walks among floating photos.
They stop at the same point in their own dimensions, a point where possibly, the flute has prompted them to stop, and where there is a convergence of space (or space-time). LL is ‘in the mirror image/like a reflection’, to us he is superimposed upside down on LG, who is standing right way up. The perpetual beam of lightning/electricity is in their respective foregrounds.
With them standing so that their feet are over the same spot, both pieces of the flute come directly in line with each other, ie the flute is joined. Pink lightning (LG’s dimension) and blue white lightning (LL’s dimension) flashes and thunder sounds. Both pieces of flute start to sound loudly. Both LL and LG look down at their half of the flute and they guess that their enemy is in NML.
They start off running straight ahead. LG looking right side up to us, LL running upside down looking like mirror images of each other, both moving at the same speed in the same direction. At this stage we guess that they know that they are going back in time, trying to beat their enemy to the gate. LG knows it because he is dressed as the saviour and because he had heard the flute just like it he did on the night of treason. LL knows it because he knows the legend (I mentioned it above thread).
The rest of what we know about this time travel, is told to us by Fate.
Thoughts on the photo and plant
The photo of TE that was floating in LL’s dimension drops to the ground, and starts to disintegrate into ashes [a sign of death]. It had been kept as a means for LL to engineer the stealing of her identity and possibly her death.
The spot where it disappears is where the seed that TE planted in LG’s dimension, starts to sprout. The seed was a sign of TE’s hope (as opposed to the meaning of that Magic/Resurrection Lily which was ‘hopeless love’) It is significant that it grows in LL’s dimension [sign of life and rebirth/resurrection]. To me that means the seed, the bearer of new life and hope, has transcended both dimensions, it connects them. More, being alive in a space where time is eternal and the state of things, unchanging, we get Eternal Hopefulness LOL not hopeless love.
It would be nice if the plant by joining the dimensions of the NML could also symbolically rejoin the pieces of the flute. That would solve the broken flute problem. However, we know that there will be a time in the future, when LG will still have to do battle with the sword. So it’s not going to be that easy!
Now, if it had been a magic ginko seed, then a new ginko tree with deep roots could have grown and made a whole new flute!!! 😂
Ahhhh …Thank you @GrowingBeautifully for replying to me! Ok I will use my tablet too. Golly this is like study time from my forgotten youth. It was markers and post it stickers and notebooks then! I was never as studious as I am now reading up every essay and comment on Packmule3’s blog just to understand a drama!
10 mins before ep 15 airs in my part of the world!
@ no one, Ahh Shucks, thanks for reading my post. I have not seen Pamuk but it is on my list as of right now.
KES is giving a shout out to screenwriter Noh Hee kyung’s Kdrama masterpiece “Padam Padam” (on Viki) with the phone booth scenes. So beautiful: the green lighting, TE’s reaction to watching the words reveal themselves on the little table in the phone booth. Both of them are in the phone booth in different space and times: a tight little cage like their situation. Now there’s an image. Here is a song that comes to mind: A Song for You by Leon Russell https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvazuyF6eXw
Episode 14.
My favorite episode with the 11.
But also, a lot of recriminations!
Some trash talk here.
Resolution of the cliffhanger from episode 13: disappointing.
Lee Lim and Lee Gon go into the in-between world: one of the best scenes of the episode. Very well filmed. Here Lee Lim uses photographs instead of balloons to mark this place.
Problem: the way to access this in-between world remains unknown. Once it’s on the racetrack, here you just have to go into the portal that leads there instead of going to the other world. Floating rule. This means that when you use the portal, you have obligatory access to the in-between world, but you are free to come out quickly or to stay in there on holiday? An unnecessary lack of clarity from the beginning. Artificial confusion generated by the refusal to show something simple.
Lee Lim kills Lee Lim: still a very good scene and a good idea. Either Lee Lim will repeat his own crime ad infinitum, or he is now warned and will choose another decision in the next iteration of the time loop. This is the most logical, but for philosophical reasons, perhaps the story will want to show that Lee Lim is damned and doomed to repeat his mistakes. So only Lee Gon will be able to be free and change things.
Attack the palace, Ok (never mind the two pairs of shoes). Meeting with Lady Noh, Ok, then afterwards…
Patatrac! That useless ball and chain of Shin-Jay.
Problem: this scene has a disruptive effect that killed me the sequel, in addition to having made a useless focus on a useless character for a useless reason, to show actions that I don’t care about at all.
A quick focus is also done on Tae Eul, but it could have been done before.
Lee Gon makes a whole series of back and forth movements in the portal.
– I got angry because I was forced to review those sequences.
– Afterwards, it’s pretty clear. But the pace being fast, there’s sometimes confusion about where he is.
– In fact, I was quickly destabilized on the first trip, because of the scene in between.
– Let’s not forget that the drama constantly shows scenes with unknown context (place, time). So the first thing to do is to know the context. Intuitively, we assume that we arrive in ROC. But in this drama we are never sure of anything until we get irrefutable proof. That’s how this drama has been killing me from the start. You can’t trust what you see or your first intuitive impressions.
– After analyzing (and reviewing the scene), it was daytime, and it was nighttime in QOK. All you had to do was avoid an elipse and an intermediate scene. Show Lee Gon in QOK at night entering the portal. Come out during the day. I know it’s not as classy! But don’t be pretentious here.
– After the first pass, there’s no confirmation that we’re in ROC. Time is frozen, so we’re wondering about that first.
– Lee Gon comes back into QOK, it’s dark, we see the flag, the TV shows young Lee Gon crying. Okay, we have little time to think. It’s dark but it’s another night. Maybe it’s to help understanding (back in QOK), but it’s destabilizing because it’s not the same night in real. There we are asking ourselves a lot of questions in real time. Why timestop? Why so much difference in time from one passage to the other of the portal? He goes through the gate, he comes back, and it’s already a week later?!
– He goes through the portal. Time is still frozen! Here I had to ask myself a question that I didn’t have time to ask myself when I saw the episode: does this mean that time has been frozen for more than a week?
– Fun fact: Lee Gon is fooled along with the viewer! He calls and learns that it’s too late, the crime has already taken place.
– Total time of all these sequences: 3 minutes.
– If no focus had been made on Shin-Jay, it’s 2 min 30 that could have been added to the mic mac of the round trip. Let the spectator have time to capture the situations, ask questions with the main character, get additional details.
– Of course, there is the trick of putting a subtitle with the name of the world. But obviously, this is something shameful for the director and the screenwriter. They prefer their little pride to the interest of the viewer.
– To crown it all, Lee Gon then appears in a field in broad daylight. A place already seen, but never located. Someone said here where it is, I forgot.
Then, Lee Gon will continue his journey into the future.
One of the best moments of the episode but it will also annoy me a lot.
– He met Tae Eul as a child. Beautiful scene.
– He starts to change Tae Eul’s memories little by little.
– Right now, I won’t be able to make an inventory of the sequences because there are too many of them, but still, it’s a powerful generator of confusion!
– How do you know, from the very beginning of the scene, when a character is in the scene?When is it? Which year? Do we go see Tae Eul sometimes, in 2019? in 2020? And in earlier years.
– Well, that’s the problem. We’re never certain of anything. We always have to ask ourselves the question, try to guess, and wait for irrefutable proof (if we are given it) to know.
– So, beautiful emotional scenes are completely sabotaged. At the moment when emotion is supposed to have an impact, I’m just asking myself a lot of questions.
– Add to that the fact that I’m also trying to understand a little bit how this whole time travel process works.
– I’ve often been forced to re-watch sequences. And I realize that this makes me even angrier than just letting the whole episode slide by leaving blurred areas. I mean, I don’t know what really pisses me off the most. But that growing anger isn’t going to help my emotional acquisition…
– That clique of snobbish people aren’t going to choose to just insert a subtitle with the year, are they? No, that would defile their great artistic masterpiece with an indelible stain. All this to alert the uneducated plebs, you don’t think of it.
– I didn’t want to talk about the principle of time travel, but I have to.
– Obviously, a time loop that’s bound to repeat itself. Within that loop, variations are possible, but the entry and exit points are inevitably the same. Perhaps Lee Gon will be able to find a way out. Either this loop has been repeated before, or it’s the first time before Episode 14, and the second time during Episode 14.
– Option 1: Either the events within the loop are completely rewritten. Therefore, Tae Eul doesn’t receive any new memories. It’s simply the memories she builds up within the new loop. Actually, I prefer that option.
– Option 2: Either the later Tae Eul remains present (until Lee Gon has completed the loop), in which case she receives new memories in addition to her own. The memories that Lee Gon just made for her. That’s how things seem to be presented here (but that doesn’t mean it’s the truth, it’s also comptabile with Option 1).
– Here I have a huge problem with option 2, because it’s a copy-pasted from Nine Time Travel, less intense, less well done. Knowing that KES already does a copy and paste of many W principles, I wonder. Does KES watch dramas? And then she’s like, “cool, I’ll pump that, that and that”? Then “Ah, I’m going to release all this 4 to 7 years later, the new viewers don’t know about it, and I’m going to pocket the bet”?
Then, or in the meantime, we’re going to have to endure an avalanche of useless characters that we barely remember.
– The character of the nurse with the handicapped child. (unless it’s the mother of Lee Gon from ROK? both characters have almost the same head at the same age).
– More Shin-Jay!! I can’t take it anymore. No wonder I already shot him in one of my memes.
– Add to that the pregnant slut I don’t give a damn about.
– To top it all off, the useless mother of PM Koo.
– And a unique sequence for the PM Koo, relegated here with the droppings of the drama.
– In all of this, I don’t even question whether these people are in ROK or QOK anymore.
– I’m not fast-forwarding to skip these scenes, it’s just that they appear in front of my eyes without imprinting on my retinas, that everything that is said goes into one ear and comes out in order, that none of this imprints itself on my memory, and that I pour myself another glass of whisky to forget that I forgot something.
Luna stabs Tae Eul.
– For once, I’m not going to criticize the meta aspect, but the actual content of the scene.
– BRAVO! The dumbest scene in the drama!
– Tae Eul and his entire crew had proof of how dangerous Luna was. But no, Tae Eul is standing there, as if she was looking at a lamppost in front of her.
– Two meters away, and O miracle, Luna makes contact in a flash and stabs the inocent and very incompetent Tae Eul.
– So there you are practicing a martial art for a year, you don’t get stabbed that way. And Tae Eul is 4th Dan, damn it!
– Of course, if you come into contact and try to fight, you’re at great risk. But normally, you’re already running away, because that’s the basic advice that any Sensei gives to all beginners.
– Conclusion: Tae Eul just wanted to commit suicide without making the effort by herself. Fortunately, her friend Luna was there to do her this favor.
Last scene of the episode.
– Phew, the episode ends with a beautiful scene.
– Undeniably a very good idea.
JTE definitely knows LG is going back to the past again, this time not to save his young self but to kill LL. I love how they just sync.
LG at the last minute brought JY with him to the regicide night. Making use of his Unbreakable Sword in the battlefield eh?
I’m thinking of the sequence that might happen on ep16 based on what happened tonight plus the spoilers:
-JTE travels to the past w/ LL.
-All lost lives lost caused by LL will return back to how they used to be, matches the spoiler of the “alive” Lee Ji Hun.
-Only JTE and LG will remain constant, even if they travel through time together or live through whatever current time they are in, matches with the spoiler of JTE wearing the plum necklace in an old era.
-wedding please
@packmule LOL so TE is a sharp shooter since she was 5. I love that about her! Reminds me of Eunsup’s little sister. My payphone hunch was wrong, I guess all the ROK phones are green, while the KOC ones are mostly red.
Has anyone finished Ep 15?
It gave me a headache. I assumed 2020 LL is dead, so good bye and good riddance. But apparently since 1994 LL is alive, he makes it through all the way to 2020 again? That guy just can’t die seeesh!!!
We finally reach the 2020 interrogation of LL. There are so many twists happening & it is getting even more confusing. My guess was right, LG turns up in his regal suit back to the night of the regicide AGAIN. But now he has backup! I like it that he is no longer alone in fighting this battle… but argh there are so many twists my head is exploding.
Haven’t been here for a while it looks like the discussions keep coming 🙂 Will just drop a note, haven’t felt well (lol sick – still am) so I missed seeing everyone’s posts. But felt I just wanted to drop a note to people who may have been worried about how this is all going to wrap up:
I wont spoil much… ep15 was nice, but was much too condensed to be enjoyed by the regular viewer without several viewings to understand what’s going on. I was very worried KES wouldn’t be able to cover all the hanging, open threads, but thankfully, in most points, she managed to answer them and they made sense.
Strangely enough, I teared up only when LG was talking to Court Lady Noh, in the scene where they were outdooors surrounded by the jars (fermenting jars i think… are those of kimchi?). That was quite a susplendid scene for me. You’d think I’d tear up when he was with JTE, but no, it was with LG and Court Lady Noh. 🙂
I’ll just be sitting back to enjoy the last episode next week. Coz even without spoilers, its mighty possible to imagine that our king is going to have a blissfully happy… even if that didn’t happen, I think it wouldn’t matter much, because at this point (ep15) all the characters were given choices, and all of them resolutely chose the path they wanted to take, regardless of what happens to them. They’ve already shown their integrity to themselves and others. That’s how KES ended Goblin, and it looks like KES is certainly ending this series in the same way.
I just still wish they would reedit the earlier episodes.. its really a nice script/story.
This is the bravest drama I’ve ever seen. The way they take some really risky decisions is quite something. Of course, they may not please every one (I myself have problems with some of them) but man, this is oddly satisfying.
They don’t really stick to any plan.
“We have shown you LL’s plan for LJH’s mom, right? Guess what, that’s not gonna happen. We’re gonna kill her beforehand. Also, did you see how LG and TE just said goodbye to each other? Well…that’s not how things will go down either.”
I mean, normally in dramas there are things set in stone. But not here, you can’t take anything for granted. This show is really based on the characters and the decisions they make. A chess game, you could say.
If this show didn’t have any previews nor spoilers from fancams, it’d be pretty uncomfortable to watch cause you wouldn’t have anything to hold on to. And that wouldn’t necessarily be a bad thing. I mean, for my psyche it’d be horrible, waiting 5 days in complete agony cause I really care about these characters and want them to succeed but things are just so damn dark. So when you see in a preview that one of the characters is, for example, still alive, you calm yourself down a bit. And I understand that’s the way the industry works. But again, imagine not having a single silver lining, not a single indication of what may happen, boy that’d be an amazing cinematic experience, uncomfortable, yes, but amazing nonetheless.
Anyway, things are about to end and I’m already feeling nostalgic for letting these characters go. Which shows the drama has really worked on me.
@JT7 Just finished it. I understand your confusion with LL dying in the past and still alive in the present. It is logically not possible. That is actually a messy setup that I wished KES didn’t try to explore when ep14 was revealed. It was already bothering me when they showed the ep10 ending, because it had similar implications.
I dont think I have the satisfactory answers you’re looking for, but I guess I understand your frustation of an undying LR. I’ll probably be thrown tomatoes at (how ironic lolz) this might be unacceptable for some, but at this point, I am willing to just accept it as a required subtle suspension of belief as a viewer. My impression is that, the episode was partly relayed as a mix of future timelines.. note “future timelines” in plural, not “future timeline” in singular, which is an iteration that happens after LG went to the past. Many mention the Lake House/Il Mare comparison… if you have watched it you will understand the similarity, esp when it approaches/reaches the ending. Essentially I am just chalking this up to several timelines overlapping each other, and this several timelines is mashed up and that is what is shown to us as viewers. Hence you see LR still alive. Essentially what this suggests is we will not be able to see clearly all the iterations, effects and changes, but we will be shown how each iteration will improve from the past one. It just appears as if it is just one iteration of a future timeline, but its not. Note in particular the part when JTE was recounting that things were happening earlier, but the things that have happened, good or bad, still happened. To me, it felt like JTE was describing several iterations, rather than just one.
Of course, this my impression only. If anyone can give a better and more elegant explanation, I’d gladly have this reasoning proven wrong. For me its not perfect, but will still do, and overall, its still a good episode. 🙂
Just finished episode 15th and I don’t know what to think now!!
Anyway since I bought the book of Kim Sowol, I would like to share it with you.
The lullaby (01:15) Dragon Lady used to sing to LG was 엄마야 누나야 (O Mother, O Sister)
O, Mother O sister, let us live by the river.
Where golden sands glitter in the garden,
and beyond the back gate, the reeds are singing…
O mother, O sister, let us live by the river.
(David McCann)
엄마야 누나야 강변 살자,
뜰에는 반짝는 금모래빛,
뒷문 밖에는 갈잎의 노래
엄마야 누나야 강변 살자.
Finale Preview HD w/ English Sub
@Tomato101, agree with you. Episode 14 was a bit heavy on the heart but Episode 15 packed a lot of punch. A lot of loose ends were tied together.
As we near towards the end, like you, I have decided now to step back & allow KES to tell me the rest of the narrative. I see a lot of spoiler photos online but I will now just enjoy the last stretch of the ride. As for the ending, they say there are 3 Cs in life – Choices, Chances and Changes and you are very spot on to say the characters were given all this. As the audience, let us see where these 3 Cs take them.
I have thoroughly enjoyed this group and this drama. LG & JTE were superb here 🙌🏼 The intensity and the feels, I couldn’t fault LMH & KGE at all.
@GB RE THE VANISHING FLUTE
A possible explanation can be deduced from what Yoyo Kid said. When the flute became whole inside the InBetweenPlace or wormhole, LG & LR were given the chance to go to that point when & where they can save themselves respectively.
LR to save himself from the failed coup while LG to save himself so both worlds would be saved from LR. Note that LG did what he was supposed to do. LR? The idiot that he is not only killed himself but even butchered his clone’s corpse.
So LG gets to keep his flute, albeit deteriorating while LR loses his as a consequence of his self-betrayal.
Another simplistic explanation is that – 2020 LR ceases to exist so his flute ceases to exist as well.
In case anyone is scared that Jo Yeong going to die, he won’t. Because when he and Eun Seob were saying goodbyes, they both said that they would like to meet again. I think they will in meet again in ROK at the Alley/courtyard.
JTE and LG will fulfill her wish to do everyday things such as travel and watch a movie together but they will watch the movie by time traveling back to 1950s.
I think everyone will get a happy ending! All I can say after watching this episode is WOW! Whatever the ending is going to be, this series has become my personal favorite in all the Kdramas I have watched!
I watched the last 3 episodes today. Thank you @packmule3 and all who posted. I am looking forward, albeit anxiously, for next week’s finale.
Where was LG3 who was saved by our LG during episode 15? Does he also have half a flute? and if so are there three halves of flute now?
@packmule3
1)First let me say thank you for all of your efforts. This site is no small feat. and
2) KES is cutting it close. Yes she is, but this is something I have seen time and time again in asian film.
I refer you to the Father of Korean Filmmakers, Im Kwon taek; as of 2015 he has made 102 films. Allow me to digress.
In the West our literary tradition goes beginning, middle,and end. In just about all Western movies, about 47 minutes into the plot, you have the crisis of the tale and from there to the end things continue along a cause and effect progression. Happily ever after or not. As noted when you were explaining nonlinear plot construction (well done you) this story is anything but linere. Asian film runs a different course. There are the characters, their station in life (class structure), or conditions of the earth. Then there are the conditions of heaven played out with Confusion/Buddhist ideas on morality (this can go on for sometime)….and I’m thinking…. Hey we are past the 47 minute mark what’s going on? ” This is making me feel a little uncomfortable. Here we have the “meaning of the time” where a person’s fate and chance brings about the outcome rather than the ending of the story. Things happen very quickly near the outcome but looking back it all makes sense. It looks like the stock market and not a bell curve. Interestingly at the end of Korean folk tales the ending phrase is “That’s all I know. I don’t know what happened after that,” which is much more open ended than happily ever after.
I recommend “Chunhyang,” “Sopyonje,” and “Chihwaseon” the later won Best Director at the 2002 Cannes Film Festival. These movies by Im Kwon teak really put Korean filmmaking on the world stage. Some say he is the beginning of the Korean Wave. I go along with that. Another thing and this is just me talking, Korean art has a certain nonchalance about it. Be it ceramics, classic Korean poetry, and novels; whatever, it is going after truth with an earthy feel. More Jazz than Classical, ya know what I mean. Like the french they make you work for it a little, you don’t see all the detail unless you really look. I like it better than Chinese and Japanese film on the whole, but I love film/media period. I really value the contribution bitchesoverdrama makes, you and your contributors get it and that is nice to find.
Just finished episode 15 and it make me confused why shinjae so sad to let JTE go to LR with manpajiseok? Is it like suicide because her will go with LR? Because LR said to LG something like who is will gonna die with him in past door and JY said he will escort him to LR door. Or JTE know that LG wouldn’t come back again based on episode 10, so she make a choice to leave ROK and go to KOC because she can’t live without LG and it makes her hurt
What the heck just happen in the last 30 minutes of the episode?? Maybe I’m just incredibly slow but there were too many things happening all at once that I was so confused 🙁
JTE asked SJ for the flute but doesn’t Lee Gon have it since he traveled back to the past again? Why does it seem like she’s “working” with Lee Rim and asking him to accompany her? What is even going on?
@PM3, I am dying with questions! Also waiting for your comments on episode 15! I already have the ending in my head haha. Lee gon ends lee lim’s life and then there are no more parallel worlds. :'( That means no more lee gon. :(( And the episode 16 preview scene kind of confirms that, (sorry for the spoiler), we see a new lee min ho passing someone who looks like JTE.
I really hope that’s where we are not heading towards. Please give me some hope. 🙁
So frustrated… I was ok with ep 14 coz i figured yeah they have to explain some things, but 15 was just too much… they don’t let us discover the plots, they are explaining all the detail, which is great for tying up loose ends but leaves me dissatisfied in the watching… oh well. It actually felt too slow for me as a whole, they kept explaining everything and I was not being left to wonder much.. I also knew when they were in ROC or KOC so the oh well…
They wrapped up SJ’s story too fast, scene with mom, not emotional enough, pregnant lady as well she kills the crown princess, it devastates LG but was just done real fast, even in custody LL’s minions are hard at work, how when his memorial end game seems thwarted?
@LunaSolace -> Lee Gon has to give SJ the flute so that can go back to ROK with LL, and keep him there for 48 hours till his mothers memorial, then enter via LL’s gate whilst he enters via his own gate, and with the flute ‘crying’ to be united, only then can they time travel. Also seem only royal blood can use the flutes. I can get why memorial day was important for LL, it would have seemed to people like he can raise the dead, but not sure why LG wants to use the same day to go back in time..?
@Wechanteur -> it seems more like option2 , now I have to go watch Nine time Travel, she is gaining the new memories in addition to the old ones, also evidenced by all the musing she does about the past throughout the drama, and she says in episode 15 that fate still won out, just earlier this time, she tried not to waste time, but fate still caught up to them faster.
@mi -> LG2 and LG3 become one in no man’s land – LG2 told us his flute was disintegrating, hence the reason he only visited TE when she was 5 and when she was 27, we then assume the last time he came out it properly disintegrated, but because he merged with his time line he gets the actual half he had before again. but. why the flute looks ragged in 15 is beyond me, it was a clean cut when sliced by 4 tiger sword…
@Iamastonsihed -> I now need to go watch all your recommendations…
@Ceuu -> It’s a suicide mission for LG making it a suicide mission of TE as well if she goes, he does not see how she can survive, and if she does she will likely lose her love, and he chose to go back to ROK mainly for her, i believe has has always seen her and LG’s love as fated to end and then he would step in, but she is proving to be less logical that he thought she would be
Open questions – what is Luna going to steal? The flute?
When they go back in time is LG2020 in all black also there? If not he may never get TE’s ID card he may never hunt for her… which is now a possibility as seen from the preview…
The scene where LG bades goodbye to HCL Noh is what breaks my heart the most in Ep 15. HCL Noh will get to live the outcome on that night LG and JY went back to retrieve the flute whole. That’s why she asked, “if i let you go, will you ever come back?”. It may also be possible that Noh has seen LG during her time in ROK before the war.
I think JY will die on that night, protecting LG, staying true to being his Unbreakable Sword. 🙁
Then again, we may all be surprised again on the outcome, based on the characters’ decision in the end.
mmm but i think the LG in the preview is actually ROK doppelgänger.. he joined the navy there..
And what’s with the different gates “fathers gate” LL wanted them to enter with the joined flute and do what exactly… live there indefinitely together??? And how did he know it was his fathers gate?
We know LG gave flowers to TE in his ceremonial suit which hints he will survive the 2nd time jump… but he is so sad ‘walking the frozen moments’ though when he gets to her likely 2019/early 2020 with the flowers-> why when he has done the No mans land waiting before does this second time round seem to crush him…? Why did the flowers disappear, does this means he actually does not see her during the 2nd jump then, because this time he is determined to do something different which has changed the flowers fate…?
Just a quick note to remind everyone of the video of TE in 2022
@No One – thanks for dissecting some of the thoughts you had with my questions!
Now that we’re done Episode 15 and thank you @mychoiyoung for the ENG SUB Episode 16 preview… I have the following questions and thoughts.
Interestingly I see that the writing on the entrance sides of the Cheonjonggong (the place of the assassination) reads two Chinese phrases about longevity + eternity! It’s what we Chinese people say during birthdays to live a long life — 福如東海長流水，壽比南山不老松。”May your happiness be like the Eastern Sea, always flowing water; May your years be longer/more everlasting than the South Mountains” Some people say this is the Zhongnan Mountain, and Zhongnan Mountain is also known as “太乙山” or Taiyi Shan in Mandarin dialect and Tai-yuet San in Cantonese… and if you were to write this in Korean… Tae-ul San [태을산] — Perhaps this is not a coincidence?
My questions:
1. What is TE going to do when she uses LL’s flute (and LL) to get into the Kingdom of Corea? It’s not like she can go back in time with only half the flute?
2. Doesn’t LG and JY have to get the other half of the flute (which they think is with ShinJae) to open up the portal again?
3. LG visits TE’s home is during the DAY in the preview, but in Ep 10, it’s during the night. Is history being fully rewritten then? Is that memory no longer supposed to exist for JTE since the flowers are disappearing?
4. Why does JTE get to remember everything (all timelines) now? What makes her unique to be able to add up all the memories?
5. If time restarts from the beginning without all the deaths caused by LL (since we see Lee Ji-hoon survives and lives), is it possible that LG takes TE with her into another time/space to begin their story once again?
6. Minor characters but what’s going to happen to PM Koo? Does she just stay in devastation after realizing they’ve taken her mother…? What paper was in her hand when she was ‘unfrozen’ in time?
Overall, praying for a satisfying ending and happy to know there’s a 1940s scene and a banquet-like scene in the pictures/spoilers :p Perhaps they do continue their love story in the past!
@Jennifer not sure if this is helpful but the packet of seeds that TE had? 相思? It’s a Tang Dynasty poem – https://baike.baidu.com/item/相思/5611027
红豆生长在南国的土地上，
每逢春天不知长多少新枝。
希望你能尽情地采集它们，
因为它最能寄托相思之情。
It talks about the South country. The seed grows there. And the planting conjures up memories/yearning. I did think about the Chinese phrase you mentioned above (寿比南山 – May you live as long as the South Mountains) when the South country was mentioned in the poem. I haven’t been following the drama, just reading here and there.
Here are is a link to some spoiler photos refocusing our theories on TE and 2022
https://www.instagram.com/p/CBGOcSiJEFw/?igshid=11cdaqmyicn7j
Unpopular opinion, but to me this drama makes little sense. I get that this story is pretty much nonlinear storytelling, but that is not what bothers me, rather the way it is done is subpar writing as well as editing/directing. There are SO many things that need a lot more explanation, in the end I guess you just need a high amount of suspension of disbelief for this.
1. What exactly is the boy/flute? (Or rather exactly what is the legend of the flute?)
2. Do the balloons inside the no mans land mean anything? If yes, how do they end up there? Same thing with the photographs by the way
3. How did YG survive so long inside the no mans land?
4. How does YG know when to exit?
5. There should be an indicator for how many times YG time traveled or the time ended up being frozen, it would make understanding this way easier
6. Personally, I cant differentiate between the different timelines/versions of the characters. A lot of people have been mentioning 2 different YG versions or even more than that due to the time traveling. I kind of get the idea, but again, the way it is being executed is way too (unncessarily) confusing.
7. The time traveling aspect needs way more explanations. Are the gates wormholes?
8. This show has way too many characters for its own good. Instead of having so many (and a lot of useless ones) they should have tried to have less and develope them better.
9. The romance is absolute cringe and I personally do not find it enganging or cute or anything, mainly due to the writer failing to establish an emotional connection
10. There is no character development for anyone
11. None of the characters are like- or relateable
Hi All, Sorry Ididn’t read through all the comments but I’m growing cataracts and stayed up late watching The King, the Baeksang Awards, Mystic Pop up Bar and for more food Sweet Munchies. Right now, I have over 100mdramas and movies on my watch lists from Netflix, Amazonand Viki, not to mention YouTube exploration. Anyway, Il Mare is on YouTubeband Amazon Prime. Also LG put TE’s hair band that he carried on her wrist-perhaps useful to ID her in the future. Also, I think in Ep. 14, LG said something about only being able to time travel in a certain direction which mant getting back to TE moe difficult. Will also follow any drama that Bitches choose because of the in depth discussions done respectfully. As they say in the dramas, we’re able to speak comfortably.
@Jennifer, @LunaSolace, @Ceuu to answer some of your questions:
1+2: What happened in the last 30 minutes of the show: LG realizes that to go back in time again, he needs to “re-enact” what happened previously. He and LL must open their portals, and enter at the same time (to join the flute), and this will again bring them back to the same moment in time on the night of the regicide. From what I understand, only LL and LG can open their portals respectively with their halves of the flute. The flute halves only responds to them because their halves respectively were soaked in their own blood the night they obtained their halves (during the regicide). We learn of this because JY was sent to open LG’s portal with LG’s half of the flute, but nothing happened, while LL’s portal only opened when LL held it.
LG has also figured out that joining the halves of the flute together outside the portal only opens up a different portal (the one that leads to eternity and infinity). I take the references to eternity and infinity to refer to the time and space axes again: eternity means endless time, infinity means endless space.
For some reason, LG wants this to happen on the day of his mother’s memorial, so he gets SJ to arrest LL and keep him safe in custody for 48 hours. SJ has LL’s half of the flute. The plan probably is that at the appointed time, SJ will get LL to open his portal, while LG will open his own portal, they will cross simultaneously and that will then bring them back to the night of the regicide. TE has deduced that SJ will be bringing LL to cross the portal. So she released Luna, and I think Luna helped her to get LL from the police station (what she told Luna to steal for her, it would be easy for Luna to “steal” LL since she can impersonate TE), while TE herself goes to talk to SJ to get LL’s half of the flute. This is a suicide mission for LG because aiming to kill LL means he is likely not to save his 1994 self, so this is likely a suicide mission for anyone who goes along with him to help him (ie. TE), so SJ does not want TE to go.
I like that we see many people banding around LG to go back to the night of the regicide this round. It makes me hope that while LG is aiming to kill LL, there are others (JY, TE, maybe SJ) who may help to save the 1994 LG’s life at the same time. I think LL does get killed, hence we see in the Ep 16 teaser that Jihun is now alive and all grown up (which is why he walks past TE but doesn’t recognise her). Also, I think TE and LG get to fulfil their wish of doing ordinary things together, like watching movies… just that it is back in the 1940s. I’m not sure why though!
@Tomato101 Thanks so much, I agree we need to suspend belief for some parts, otherwise it doesn’t make sense! (or my head will explode too) I’ve watched Il Mare, I think it was less confusing because it was just 2 timelines running simultaneously alongside each other, over here it seems similar just that there seem to be so many loops it gets confusing.
@kuroshio thanks for the poem, it is so lovely! Amazing how KES manages to weave so many of the Azaleas poems into the plot.
@mychoiyoung thanks for the finale preview! So looking forward to Fri, our brains can finally take a rest after that!
@Summerwind Phew I really hope he doesn’t die! This episode really made me appreciate his devotion to LG, he will follow him no matter what, even to his death.
@Iamastonished Thanks for giving us so much background to all the films KES has referenced! Makes the ambitious, complex plot even more beautiful.
@nrllee
Love that. I looked up more poems about the “Longing like a Flower” and want to also consider Ouyang Xiu’s poem:
https://baike.baidu.com/item/长相思·花似伊
Which talks about separation and Spring as well.. which is the season that TE mentions too about how the flowers should bloom by now.
看着花儿像你一样，柳枝像你一样；花儿柳枝已青的春天，人却要别离，低下头不禁流下两行清泪。
长江的东边，还有那长江的西边，两岸的鸳鸯在东西两处飞舞着，（我们）什么时候才能再次相逢呢？
This is my loose translation:
Seeing flowers like you, they’re just like you. The flowers have already bloomed in Spring, but the person still has to leave. Looking down two rows of tears fall without restraint.
On the Yellow River’s east or west side, are a pair of Phoenixes singing to each another from two sides, when can [we] meet again?
—
Seems all very fitting. During the Tang Dynasty was the peak of connection between Korea and Tang China with intellectual exchange. So I wouldn’t be surprised if the Wang Wei poem is more indicative of the “Longing” Flowers! Either way, how symbolic it really is. Go KES!
@Jennifer Ooo…nice catch. Reuniting the OTP. Hopefully happy ending? 😍
@nrllee: Hmm but in this poem, the seeds are red, not brown though? It reminds me of how saga seeds are also referred to as 相思豆 in my part of the world.
Hi @mychoiyoung What you say about the vanishing flute sounds reasonable. Although I laugh at your saying that LR is the idiot who failed to save himself, instead he gets his 2020 self killed… and feel that this does tie in with his flute disappearing. I can’t think of a scenario in which a character like LR could ever truly save himself. As long as he’s hellbent on wresting what is not his, by murder and other heinous deeds, he is un-save-able. LOL. So that was a loaded thing that is in the premise of flute being whole. It had to be used to save himself, but LR never would be able to do that.
We recall that the flute is supposed to bring good, to bring order out of chaos and help in times of disaster/difficulty/danger. It was supposed to help the rightful King to rule well.
Since his half of the flute has been used illicitly by LR who has no right to it to begin with, and used to help him do nothing much else but evil, it is only right that the flute abandons him upon his death.
The other thing about 2020 LR ceasing to exist and so the flute does as well is also logical, especially if we consider that it was his blood that permeated the flute. Blood seems to have bearing on who can use the flute.
The other thought on Blood – we see other people’s blood on LR multiple times. I feel Show is stating the obvious … that he is responsible for the blood of many, and that he has to pay back big time, and not only with his blood (ala Goblin). It is not enough that he gets killed, but a restitution needs to be made. Whether (and I doubt) LR will ever be the one to make that restitution remains to be seen, but the good King, who wants to rule well, who sees that he can right the wrongs done to his Kingdom/subjects … he it is who will take steps to restore the balance. We trust at this stage, that LG has figured out that he cannot go it alone.
@JT7 thank you for the wonderful explanation! It makes so much more sense now – I definitely should have rewatched some parts but my brain was kind of fried after so many events jam packed together in the last 30 minutes of the episode.
I really hope JTE and SJ will go together with LL. Honestly worried that LL has something bad planned just in case he gets caught or something, which will make the plot a bit more complicated. But seeing that it is the last episode, I hope it isn’t super crazy because so many things need to be wrapped up. That’s just me hoping for the best, lol.
This blog honestly helped me to understand the show so much better! Definitely could not have figured this stuff out with my small brain.
Can someone help me to clarify or understand what is likely to happen when LG goes back to the night of treason?
1. He says he will not save himself and with such the course of history will change. He will kill LR but not save himself in order to right the wrongs that have happened throughout the series. Essentially both worlds would go back to what they were. But if both the King And the young LG died that evening who would be next in the line of succession. Could those fancy chairs be a coronation scene not a wedding?
2. LG succeeds to kill LR and leaves himself for dead however TE or possibly JY save the young prince anyways so where would the story go from here? Would another time loop get created.
3. Is there another scenario possible?
I have no clue if this is going to be a bitter sweet ending or happy or somewhere in the middle. Time travel is a bit abstract for me
Any opinions?
@JT7 you’re probably right. I haven’t followed the drama, just been reading here and there. Just thought I would throw in that tidbit about the poem. 🙂
Hi, here to comment for a first time, but was reading for some time 🙂
1. Just wanted to chime in. Until Ep 13, we watched Timeline 1. Timeline 1 ends with a time loop, explaining itself by allowing LG to save himself and older LR being killed by himself. Timeline 1 doesn’t exist after that.
2. In the episode 14-15, it is clear that we are as viewers moving onto Timeline 2. Timeline 2 started from telephone booth meeting for JTE, and as we are told, is happening more quickly and milder. TImeline 2 has its own problems such as body of older LR being in the palace (not explained) and LG having to manage time issues.
3. what I expect – Luna will be saved by King (medical treatment). She will remain in Republic world and will replace JTE. She will finally enjoy a family and love (SinJae). The real JTE would travel to King’s world to become queen.
At least, that’s what I would expect 🙂
Saw this on YT and TW that the music at the end of Episode 15 is similar to the OST in Goblin. Also, similar music used at the cool dramatic backlighted entry of LG-JY and Goblin-Grim Reaper.
@Newtokdrama Regarding your questions:
1. Prince Buyeong.
2. Good but hard question. Remember that there is only ONE timeline in this show, so any change in the past, alters the future of this timeline, it doesn’t open a new one.
So if LL is dead and young LG is rescued by JY or TE and they make sure that he gets TE’s ID, he would probably look for her. Eventually and with a lot of luck, finding out about the portals and the “magic” of the flute. If he doesn’t get the ID, he’d probably just live peacefully in his Kingdom and will never meet TE. But then in ROK, his doppelganger would be alive and TE could fall in love with him. That’d be the new story.
Now what would happen to the TE and LG from 2020 in that case? Well, their memories would change depending on the two options (there are more options, of course) I mentioned above. For example, if young LG doesn’t get the ID, you could probably see how 2020 LG immediately starts forgetting TE. Same way if Young LG is killed, 2020 TE’s memories of LG would totally disappear.Just like Back to the Future.
3. There are certainly many scenarios. For example,
* 2020 LG, young Lee Gon and LL all die.
* 2020 LG and young Lee Gon die and LL lives. Dreadful 😣
Hope it helps!
Wow, this thread just exploded! Again, thank you @packmule3 for this blog. Let me just give you a virtual hug as I know that things are heartbreaking in your part of the world. 🙁
Yes, ep.15 was really to tie loose ends of the story. Just like TE, I wished things/scenes were done “earlier” (shortened or took out non-relevant scenes) so that we have more time with other important facets. A prime example is SJ’s meeting with his KOC mom which seemed rushed! Although if I were in his place, I wouldn’t want to stay too long talking to her as well. Her abandoning SJ was his nightmare and it haunted him so much. You can see from SJ’s interaction with his ROK mom that even though she had her gambling problem because of their family’s bankruptcy, he never thought of casting her aside.
@TD – I’m theorizing but maybe LL knew about “father’s gate” as he’s seen it already being used by LG’s grandfather. Or maybe he assumed it was his father’s since the color of the obelisks were red and not green like that of his or LG’s? The mom of JH (LG’s doppelganger) was kept alive because LL wanted to bring her to KOC and show everyone there that there is a parallel world. As regards Luna, I think she was asked by TE to “steal” LL who was in police custody so that she could help open the portal — the suicide mission of TE where she might not be able to come back from.
@GB – Yes to the seed being the bearer of new life and hope! I loved your explanation. To add to this is @Jennifer’s Ouyang Xiu’s poem (thank you for this!) about the “…pair of phoenixes singing to each other, when can we meet again?”. A phoenix must die to obtain a new life. In TKEM, that’s the symbolism of TE’s picture burning on the ground of No Man’s Land and in the process, it grows the seed in the mirror image of LG’s portal.
@mychioyoung – thank you for the English subs for the preview! Really appreciate it. 🙂
@NewtoKdrama- I think when LG says he will not save himself, he meant that his primary mission was to kill LL even before the flute gets cut in half. In my understanding, he almost died because of the wound he got from the flute. So if the flute doesn’t get cut, there’s no possibility of him getting seriously hurt?! I still don’t know how young LG will remember TE if this happens! It doesn’t seem like LG wearing the ceremony clothes would have TE’s ID anymore since he left it already during his previous time travel. Eeep.
like @MsWhiteMoto and @Tomato101, I am stepping back to just enjoy the rest of the story. I am hoping to have a happy ending for LG and TE. No open-ended endings please! I don’t think my brain can handle more questions after episode 16. haha!
Dear Forumites, it is a pleasure to read you (as it always is).
So Tae-Eul has put herself in the first row to self-sacrifice for Lee Gon. That is why he gave her the bouquet of blue flowers. His grim expression when he gave her the bouquet is because she was a casualty in that conflict.
Bracing myself for next week.
@Nrllee, I have this nagging feeling that I haven’t been as consequent with you as I should. Are you and your family OK?.
@WEchanteur, I am really interested in what was your take in these two episodes. I see that while Lee Lim has gone donward a spiral of destruction, Lee Gon has been busy “sowing the seeds of love” and friendship (as in going through a virtuous upward spiral). Last episode Lee Gon rocked it with is 2016 visit toTae-Eul (yes, I am a romantic XD ). I would love to hear your take why didn’t you liked it (except that as you say, then the rock bead of all the understanding and misunderstandings that led Tae-Eul and Lee Gon to that moment in their relationship is gone).
@JT7 explained well what happend in episode 15, the last 30 min. And what will happen in episode 16. I think while LG will kill LL, SJ, JY and TE will help to save the child LG.
When LL died, those people inflicted by him will be saved.
And with the Flute being whole again, they (LG, TE, SJ and JY) can time travel anywhere they like.
In this circumstances, I hope there will be a happy ending for LG and TE.
I pity the character LG so much. Esp, the scenes in the kitchen when his uncle PB died, in front of the church, and the last goodbye scene with both CLN and TE.
He deserves to be happy, do the ordinary tasks in normal relationship.
See you next week.
@FGB4877 Yes our part of the world is well enough. So are my nearest and dearest. Can’t say the same for other parts of the world though which is descending into anarchy. Praying for peace and harmony. Thanks for asking.
Hi @StoneJack! I’m very glad to read you here. I popped into DB a few times to see if you’d had time to comment there. I’ll be glad to get your opinion about show making, about the upsides and downsides of decisions made etc. I liked what you wrote before on what this show had to be careful of. It was biting off a lot more than it was likely to be able to chew. How do you feel now that we’re at the penultimate episode? Do you think show has redeemed itself or has it dropped several balls?
I wrote in my notes, some adhoc stuff about show’s loose ends. I have not yet added to it or polished it enough to post, however it’s a list of ‘events/things’ that were started but not to my knowledge, brought to fruition or not explained. I expect show can’t tie up every loose end, but I gather (I’ve only briefly watched Ep 15) it has attempted it valiantly in this episode.
@StoneJack I forgot to add, that your number 3) Is what I was hoping for as a resolution. There was enough emphasis placed on Shin Jae and Luna, that they are entitled to a little spin off of their own LOL. I begin to see threads of this possibility already and am thinking that you’re right to expect it. 🙂
Hello,
Some questions after watching episode 15 and hopefully some viewers can help answer:
1. How did Lee Rim continue with life in 2020? LR 2020 was killed by 1994. So following the timeloop, LR will always die in 2020. Unless he doesn’t not go back to 1994 and doesn’t get killed by 1994 LR. But if he doesn’t go back to 1994, there’s no way LG can go back and save himself because he only has half the flute.
2. While in jail, LR managed to cause Se Jin an accident and swap Prime Minister’s mother. How does he do that or instruct his minions to do that while he’s in prison?
3. Is there only 1 Lee Gon in 2020?
Thanks.
Yay episode 15 was power packed!! Btw if 2 halves of the flute are needed to time travel back why couldn’t Lee Gon time travel when he was holding 2 halves of the flute?
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@gb
thankyou for your explanation
Anyway, pregnant lady and the nurse minion bothered me a lot. Their characters not even have tiny impact for this drama, but wasting the time.
Here’s minor but annoying parts still loose for me:
When tae ul and team discovered and looking for ji hun’s mom (eps14), lee rim minions already bring her under the anesthesia (probably heading to koc, cause they don’t have any place to escape right?) and so do with the koc pregnant lady who lived in rok . This case happened before lee gon catch the time to 2020
But, in eps 15, ljh mom still in rok and meets lee gon (even warn him). And rok pregnant lady who still in koc sitting next to lee rim in the car.
I was like, this is too confusing for me. If the Minions not heading to koc, where are they hidding that time? Jo yeong seems know it. Then after met lee gon, ljh moms suddenly in koc with lee rim and suicide her self.
And then the pregnant lady. Koc version killed rok husband and then begging to minions to save her life. Then, where is lady rok version? In eps 13 she laid in hospital, counting days to delivered the baby. Is she killed already? So they can bring back original lady to be killed in car accident with se jin then and shocked the pm ko.
It is annoying, right?
Just dropping by to leave this thank you note! The discussions here are so instructive, respectful and, dare I say, civilised, that I couldn’t believe my eyes (in comparison to the vitriol and mean-spirited comments thrown against this drama in the other sites).
@JT7, thanks for explaining those plot points so clearly.
@StoneJack, my heart is set on your scenario #3. Fingers crossed!
@GB re THOUGHTS on the TE’s photo and plant – I had two related posts about TE’s seeds & the InBetweenPlace in another forum –
My other post
@mychoiyoung Wow, what a picture! I hadn’t really paid attention before. To top it up, the names of our two leads on each side of the bridge. Such a telling shot.
Off topic: Instagram account of the little kid who scolded our king. https://www.instagram.com/p/CBGOtWSDP_F/?igshid=1alroe6xptazj
Cute.
@Wenchanteur – am one of the few here who subscribed to the notion that the “Place Between 1&0” is simply in between the portals. I recognize the beautiful essay written on this in previous thread but I just did not agree with it and said so early on. That’s why I have always referred to it as “TheInBetweenPlace. Once that is accepted, the problem becomes less.
The racetrack thing is a botched-up edit cos the way I looked & understood it, it was a flashback to when LG & TE entered the portal. Note that the camera 1st zoomed to the whip and then we are brought to the InBetweenPlace where LG & TE on Maximus.
Occam’s razor at work.
What I did not like about Epi 15 is the tete-a-tete between Yoyo Kid and Song Jeong-Hye,
I did not get why she was there, why Yoyo Kid was talking to her. Why her bodyguard just let her talk and talk with Yoyo Kid.
Yes it is good cos their exchange provided crucial explanation for the Show but I just find it too convenient but not sensical. Looks like lazy exposition to me.
Compare that to the exchange between OkNam & LG towards the end of the episode. The fact that LG knew OkNam’s secret all along was a good drop.
Interesting that it took a line from a poem that TE cited for LG to acquire the book and (am assuming) that that was the time that LG made the connection about OkNam’s secret by remembering a lullaby that the latter sang to him.
I think there is more in TE & OKNam’s connection which we may see revealed in the finale episode.
@Alxmar97 When did LG learn how to shoot well
The shootout during the Night of Treason happened in close quarters. LG need not be an expert marksman to shoot people down in such close range. Not to mention, even if he isn’t an expert marksman, he is still the King and would be trained to be better than most people with a gun so as to protect himself.
I took the talk between LG & the son of his instructor during the funeral as a joke. And I would take the whole arcade shooting game thing with a grain of salt. Rather than a measurement of his shooting skills, it was more about the comedy in him getting duped. Because the guns used for these games are famously tampered with so that people can never aim correctly. The reason why Korean native Tae-eul could do it was because she was aware of that fact and compensated for it.
@GB – about the blood – yes it does show how much crime & sin LR has committed. Once I had this morbid imagining that all the red paint that he uses for the temple he has been building is infused with the blood of his victims. Yikes!
@Wenchanteur – That stabbing scene between TE & Luna frustrated me, too. Like, really TE? You’re in a dark alley, with this known criminal and you pursue her lamely without any back-up. Where did our our bada$$ heroine go?
And where was JY who was supposed to protect her as per King’s order?
#Jennifer – that is fascinating info about the inscription in the entrance of the Treasure house. I bet it is not a coincidence, as what the drama tells us time and again. Thanks!
@mychoiyoung,
AH AH!
The list of flaws of this scene is endless.
Also, she doesn’t call the paramedics, she calls the police without asking for the paramedics. She doesn’t even say “officer down.”
It reminds me of the scene in CLOY where there are 3 or 4 of them crying instead of stopping the bleeding and calling for the paramedics.
Tae Eul is doing that by herself lol!
@mychoiyoung Too much exposition in a drama is also one of my pet peeves. Especially as in this case, it was ‘out of the blue’, without any prelude as to how Fate and Song Jeong Hye were together in a little lane chatting at night!!! Shows should do just that … ‘show’ us not tell us. If they must tell us, then make it more organic to the rest of the happenings taking place.
I took down every word that Fate said of that conversation because that was the only way to get the info., but I actually disliked that scene.
Then we come up against the big question … how is LG and LL supposed to know all this stuff that Fate just expounded on. They just ‘knew’ 🙄 😑 It would have been better if Fate had chatted with both of them (seeing as Fate actually chatted with LL before), giving them sufficient hints and that when they were in the No Man’s Land, LL and LG remember through a flashback of that conversation where those hints finally made sense to them.
I mentioned before that I puzzled over why LG had in introduction to The Four Tiger Sword, but we are not shown that he knew anything about the Manpasikjeok. Early scenes of him getting more of the flute’s legend and the possibility of time travel would have solved all the exposition issue. However Show wanted to keep up the suspense, as if viewers did not already guess from the future ID card, that time travel was definitely in the picture somewhere.
The other question that is linked is, how come the older son knew the Legend of the flute, but the younger one did not. Was it considered superstitious (eventhough HCL Noh was living proof that there was access to another world) and so was put under wraps because LG’s mum was a Catholic? This is one question I’m putting into my notes on ‘Loose ends’ of this show.
Poor Shin Jae, it wasn’t fair, Lee Gon gave him so much responsability. Kill him and let the world they know as it is or let him go in the past to be killed and change everything. But it means let the boyfriend of the girl he loves to be killed without telling her… And then, he’s the one who was been confronted by TE.
Shin Jae’s place in the story was not so important at the end… It’s kinda disapointing. It’s the same for Yeong. Lee Gon has all the cool fighting scenes.
Why did PM Koo coach her mother to give the “mackerel” answer and why did she get upset when the mother gave a different answer?
The mom didn’t answer “mackerel” to PM Koo, Snow flower?!
Uh oh. That means that the mom has been switched by Lee Lim already.
The mackerel was a “code word” like what Welmaris was saying Lee Gon should have with TaeEul. If the mom doesn’t answer mackerel, then she’s not the mom. She’s an imposter, a doppelgänger.
Oh no. I liked the mom, too. I hope she’s alive in ROK, not dead.
@JT7 oh nice explanation. I think the “for some reason” LG wanted 48 hours of time with LL is possibly because:
1. he had to wrap up stuff in his kingdom (make Sejin the heir) unfortunately LL already knew this and sent someone to kill her (how convenient)
2. he wouldn’t know who LL has infiltrated in KOC so he sent him back to ROC with SJ to be safe?
3. Maybe he wanted LL to pass through the gate at the same time and could only time it if no one else crossed through the gate again within those 48 hours
4. He needed the timestop of LL crossing over to do something we haven’t seen yet on screen?
5. He wanted to commemorate his mother by doing a courageous and glorious act?
@mychoiyoung thank you for reading my ideas about Taeul san!
@nrllee yes, let’s hope for a happy ending together!
See everyone in the Endings post!
Lee Rim said that he Sent Hell to his nephew and to the PM, for me it meant he switched the PM’s mother and killed the original one.
Sorry to break the chain of Q&As. Just want to express my emotional turmoil at Yeong/Eunsop‘s farewells. It was the scene I cried the most.
Lol. Yeong/Eunsop’s farewell? Let me guess. Did Yeong hug Eunsop? I remember when they first met, Eunsop offered to hug Yeong when he found out that Yeong was an only child or something. It’s just right that Yeong would offer to hug him now. 😆
Did they use a body-double?
Let me just say this…..this.. is a creative accomplishment. Screw the ratings. Don’t whine about character development. Kim Go-un and Lee Min ho have gone from sitcom couple and cold kisses to people who are deeply in love. Kim Go-un has gone from highly competent to a near basket case and Lee Min ho has gone from privileged fop with a million dollar watch and a white horse to intellectual leader and man with a plan. We missed out on cute but clueless, accidental kisses and wrist grabbing and found something much more interesting. Romance writing has it’s place but it is better as a side dish than a main course in my opinion.
Ep. 14 and 15 were a wild ride as we get ready for the finale. I can’t say that it made much sense to me, but I am rolling with it. My favorite scene: When Eun-sup and Jo Young said their goodbyes, and JY gave ES a big hug. It was so sweet. Thye really do feel more like twin brothers. Kudos to WDH for his great acting here as again I really felt like I was watching 2 different people. @Say08-I feel you. Yeong/Eun Sup’s farewell scene was very touching. It makes me wish that somehow thaty could just continue seeing each other every once in a while, like at holidays. But I guess that is not possible since I think one of LG goals is to sael the portal between the 2 worlds in order to stop the time freeze. I also liked JY “goodbye” with the younger twin siblings as we (finally) see him give them a big smile. I think he will miss all 3 of his “ROK siblings”.
@pm3- regarding the JY/ES farewell scene. Yes, JY hugged ES. And I believe they used a body double, and camera angles.
@pm3 and @Sayaris, thank you! Poor mom. I hope that 1. Mom is OK (not likely but who knows…)
2. PM Koo springs into action and gets a chance to redeem herself.
@packmule yes most definitely a double. His back looks somewhat different haha! And in previous BTS for the JY/ES scenes the double is always standing at the side on standby.
@mychoiyoung I agree with you wrt the inter-dimensional portal having no edge. Actually I was thinking about the space and time axes… in a place like the inter-dimensional portal time and space should not have any end. Which correlates to LL’s description of the space of eternity and infinity. What confuses me is whether the new portal that is opened using the 2 broken parts of the flute leads to the same space, but with both axes functioning (ie. world crossings and time travel are possible), or does it lead to a different inter-dimensional space that has no edge? The way they introduce these aspects is choppy and confusing.
I am wondering if the activation of the time axis due to the joining of the 2 parts of the flute meant the flow of time changes.. which means the seeds could start sprouting. Before the joining of the flute, movement along the time axis was not possible, so everything was “frozen” in time in a sense. @GB, I loved how you explained that bit about the photo and the seeds.
Random side points:
I realized that not only did Song Jeong Hye poison herself, she also poisoned LL. He was coughing out blood. But again HE DOES NOT DIE. This guy is more tenacious that a cockroach. I was wondering, was it because he only ate one bean before he realized, hence the amount of poison consumed was minuscule? And now we have both LG & LL surviving poisoning attempts as if they were Wolverine or something.
Also, was wondering if anyone could shed light on this odd thing that has been bugging me for awhile. In the earlier episodes, we see LG only managing to win a keychain at the arcade. He brings it back to KOC with him, we see Lady Noh emptying out his pockets and finding the keychain. However, later it just seems to pop up with TE, and she has the keychain before she gets out of the car to meet LG on 11/11. Did he win matchy keychains? Or did I miss something?
@JT7
It wasn’t really shown that he won couple key rings but it was assumed that it’s couple key rings. In episode 4, he brought one back to KOC in his pocket and JTE later found one on her car key. Presumably LG got one for JTE and himself
@JT7 @LinLin this got me thinking. Did he end up not shooting that well to win the small prize keychains?
Had to stop analysing for some scenes in Ep14-15 and just sit back and ride on the emotional roller coaster, enjoy the visuals (though I still can’t accept how TE got stabbed without a struggle with Luna).
At the scene with LG leaving Lady Noh, how she was standing in the midpoint , like she was the balance in the palace and in LG’s life. The composition was lovely.
This comment will be another harsh one. Please, take drama fans to their bedrooms and put a parental lock on their smartphone and computer.
I wanted to write some stuff about Episode 15, but I lost the courage and motivation.
It’s a pretty good episode, that’s not the point.
In fact, every episode from the 11th to the 15th has qualities that the ones before it didn’t have.
A better storytelling, more exciting, the main plot progressing better, the scenes are better defined with more intense background music. Well, a lot of good stuff, even if we get also bad stuff with that.
But this episode 15 totally finished me off in an indirect way.
All the useless clutter and the profusion of disconnected elements that screwed up this drama becomes obvious. And I guess episode 16 will be the sword of Damocles that will ruthlessly decapitate the whole drama!
Just one example: The mother of Lee Gon’s clone.
How many isolated scenes devoted to this character during the drama? And for what result? None of them. All this was in vain, and for each of these scenes, the spectator was forced to adapt to an unknown context and lose the thread of the main plot. The meagre final influence of the character (favouring the meeting between Lee Lim and Lee Gon) could be done otherwise. And it is not for the little contribution to the construction of Lee Lim that this character deserved to exist.
It is nevertheless a magnificent sabotage: the character meets by chance Lee Gon and tells him everything (LOL!), then succeeds in committing suicide, preventing Lee Lim’s plan. Useless plan since anyway Lee Lim meets Lee Gon otherwise.
Multiply this by the number of useless characters and situations. Having to quickly memorize these moments and characters (close to the impossible within a set of other elements of the same nature).
Now take all the boring scenes that are only meant to give information. Information that could have been given in the context of a clear storyline rather than in a set-up.
Take all the elements that were made confusing when they were not necessary because they were not mysteries per se.
Take any drama that doesn’t hesitate to include a mini-flashback to clarify an early scene, when often many spectators had naturally memorized this. But at least it will have a dramatic impact. TKEM doesn’t even do this for situations that have completely disappeared into the shadows, confused, forgotten, scattered.
Example: Episode 15, the code name between the mother and the PM Koo. How many spectators understood the scene? Everywhere I see comments from people who didn’t understand the situation. And maybe those who understood did a job of rewatching the scenes. As far as I’m concerned, as I said in my previous comment, I don’t give a damn anymore: the scene in the previous episode, I saw it, but I knew I wouldn’t retain anything in memory of the heap of sequences with useless characters.
To make it even funnier, this scene involves the death of another useless character, the pregnant bitch I think (I make no effort to remember or review the scene, I’m more than sick of this tiring drama).
So here, what was the cost of a mini-flashback to remember this “coded sentence” story?
Let’s add the mini-plot with the other Crown Prince. Interest?
It’s just a small part of the mess we’ve been seeing all along. This ridiculous carnival. I’m sorry I’ve been bugging you bitchy guys and girls for weeks with all my comments. If you like to read the comments of a poor spectator who regularly freaks out and has recurring fits of rage, you’ve got a lot to laugh about!
A lot of time could have been spent exploring the fantastic mysteries better, giving more explanations. Especially since this part is much more exciting, of course.
Moving from the structure and ideas to the story itself, there is a moment of inner conflict that every screenwriter should have :
– Is one element so important, or does it interfere badly with the whole?
– Is this character vital, or will it consume time for nothing or almost?
– Is the spectator getting enough clear information for being immersed in the story?
– Is such a storyline imperative, or will it distract the viewer’s attention and dilute the dramatic intensity?
– IS THERE A STORY???
Here, nothing!!! NOTHING !!!
And why nothing ?
I just figured out why, following a comment from someone.
A shocking comment, this internet user said that it all boils down to 4 episodes. Episodes 1, 14, 15, 16.
There were a few explanations, but not the one I just found on the underlying reason (or I didn’t read it, sorry).
But the explanation just appeared to me in a clear way after I had slept a bit and calm down.
Episode 14: when Lee Goon and Lee Lim hear the sound of the flute, and go to the portal to go back in time.
Everything is there!
It’s an absolute event, having no cause related to what the characters in the story produce.
Anything else can happen before, anyway, this crucial event must take place, and does not involve anything that happened before, except for a few scenes from episode 1.
In other words…
The screenwriter sets the rules of her universe (hoping that everything holds without any plot-hole or inconsistency) but does nothing really, or hardly at all.
Her screenplay is then based on that: the end, where the crucial events take place.
Episode 14 to 16.
Everything that happened before could have been a story, but it’s not.
Or episodes 14 to 16 could have happened much earlier, and the story goes on. Yeah, it could if we get rid of all the crap.
No, here, all that takes place before is mostly fillers disguised as artificial complexity. Gigantic dragging. Take as many random additionnal characters to fill the void and throw them in all direction into splitted scene without narrative link. Something that goes around in circles. A boring, laborious, confusing set-up, except for a few moments of comedy, romance and finally some energy in episode 11.
Actually, Goblin dressed up in dozens of stacked clown masks.
I dislike boring Goblin, and I’ve gotten myself clowning around in it again.
I wish I could push the writer into a plot-hole. ^^
Now the script’s getting stupider and stupider too.
There was the case of the scene with Luna, but a new gem has just appeared.
Lee Gon is going to tell Tae Eul that he’s going back in time.
And sniff sniff sniff, their meeting may never happen because the passage between the worlds will be closed.
Then, he’ll leave and let her cry in peace.
Didn’t this genius of math and logic have the idea to simply involve Tae Eul, so that she goes back in time with him? By accompanying Lee Lim with the other piece of flute?
Uulaaaah.
What’s this?
Some kind of “divorce”?
“I’m rejecting you, but to avoid hurting your heart, I’m using some lame excuse?”
But Tae Eul isn’t fooled, and despite her incompetence in the field of math, alternative worlds, and flutes (and teakwondo too), she’s going to come up with the idea on her own.
Concerning episode 15 and the time travel stuff, I’m doing a copy-paste of what I posted on soompi.
—————————————————————–
I felt like a plot-hole in the process used in the drama.
But in the end, if you think about it a little bit, I think it makes sense.
I’m explaining the situation.
1994, LG2 child.
2020, LG1 adult.
New explanation.
– LG1 is in 2020 and travels back in time and saves LG2 in 1994.
– Then LG1 goes back to 2020 using the in-between world where 4 months inside is equal to 26 years outside. When he sometimes goes out of the in-between world, he generates minor changes in the time frame, and meets Tae Eul before the first encounter he had in the drama.
– During this time LG2 lives normally, except his relationship with Tae Eul which will be slightly different.
– LG1 arrives in 2020 finally.
– We don’t see what happens to adult LG2 in 2020 during this time, but it’s obvious.
– LG2 does the same thing as LG1: go back in time in 1994.
– LG2 had a slightly different life than LG1, because of the minor changes that LG1 caused.
– When LG2 travels back in time, it is assumed that he will accomplish the same thing as LG1.
– Instead of an infinite loop LG1 and LG2 become the same character. Since there are minor changes between the two characters, LG1 then acquires all the memories of LG2 in addition to its own.
– LG2 somehow ceases to exist. He becomes LG1 as soon as he arrives in 1994.
Old explanation.
– My problem here was that LG2 won’t accomplish quite the same things as LG1, it’s almost impossible, there will always be minor variations.
– Moreover LG2 will reproduce the time loop to infinity with LG3, LG4, etc..
– All are supposed to reproduce the case so that the loop remains closed.
– However, because of the minor variations, LG1 is supposed to have the memory modified to include all the changes. An infinite number of changes.
– Which means his brain is just going to explode.
I had initially taken the process linearly.
But with my new explanation, I feel like things are consistent.
Is that consistent with the rest of the drama?
What do you think?
—————————————————————–
Potential second plot-hole.
This is much more serious!
It’s about Lee Lim (LL).
1994, LL2.
2020, LL1.
– LL1 goes back to the past in 1994, at the same time as LG1.
– It is the only way for them to travel in time, they must be together in the in-between world, to reunite the flute.
– LL1 is killed by LL2.
– LL2 continues to live his life until 2020.
– He knows that he will be killed by himself if he travels in time.
– Instead, he continues to live and to make his plans.
– Then how does LG2 go back in time?
– He absolutely needs LL2 to do so.
– I’m talking about the first time travel! Not the one prepared at the end of episode 15, of course.
The logical resolution of this situation should be:
– LG2 is present in 2020.
– LG1 comes from a previous timeline now disconnected.
– LG1 does not acquire the memories of LG2.
– The two Lee Gon are now separate individuals in 2020.
In your opinion?
Plot-hole?
—————————————————————–
Some help from Wanderer drama fan :
In reference to my thoughts above, I think when LG1 went back to the present (the one we got at the start of episode 15), he has essentially merged to become one and the same person with the BB LG he saved (I think LG2 in your definition). LG2’s time travel arc became one and the same with LG1. As you said, LG2 would not be able to travel back without LL2 traveling back too (which we’re assuming he won’t do anymore because of what happened in the past), so he never really left. BUT when LG1 has finally caught up to the present, he became an LG that both time-traveled and did not time-travel. Essentially, he ceased to be LG1, and became LG 2.0 with two sets of memories from then on.
My answer :
Yeah, what you’re saying makes sense.
In fact, if you think harder, it’s the only way to avoid the plot-hole I was talking about before.
But it’s all very unclear, I’m even doubting whether KES has conceptualized this as much as we have.
And in the end we’re the ones who fix the holes, lol!
That’s quite unacceptable when it comes to restitution for the viewer.
We needed a scene to show the end of Lee Gon’s journey.
For example:
– LG1 is in the in-between world.
– LG2 is about to travel in time. Actually, he can’t because Lee Lim doesn’t want to travel on his side.
– However LG2 hears the sound of the flute and goes to the portal.
– In fact, he does not know it, but this sound of flute is there to alert him that he must enter the portal to merge with LG1.
– A shot with LG1 in the in-between world walking towards an exit or a rift.
– A shot with LG2 walking towards the portal.
– A very stylish shot, with LG1 exiting the portal, and LG2 entering the portal at the same time.
– A shot with the in-between world, deserted, no LG2.
– A shot with LG1 coming out of the portal, having some kind of weird crisis, and some flashback of LG2’s memories.
Doing this is the basics. It’s far more valuable than showing useless characters from start to finish, or quickly give incomplete information in an LG-TE dialogue.This drama is completely stupid to never want to explain the indispensable things and preserve mysteries that are no longer there, and permanently plummet the viewer’s immersion.
You read this forum on soompi. Here you have the smartest and most advanced people in the understanding of drama, and everyone here is wondering about this mess. Is it normal that the experts themselves are in the cabbage patch? And the audience who just have their TVs and are alone in front of it, what happens to them?
Dear @Nrllee, I am glad you and your loved ones are OK!!!
And yes, I hope that Tae-Eul going directly to the wolf’s maw doesn’t result in her death, but Lee Gon going back to her with the blue flower bouquet is a bad omen in that regard.
But right now I don’t see an easy answer to the King’s conundrum. But I haven’t really thought on the possibility of Lee Gon going back one day before the coup and killing Lee Lim from a well-deserved beheading.
Yep a body double whose hair was not exact so it kept bothering me…
Because I am a shallow islander with a liberal arts degree, and the show is coming to an end I want to focus on the positives, even if it gave me severe stress a number of times. This is also an appreciation post for @Pm3 and lead characters/actors.
My apologies in advance for a meandering post as it is my first time, I want to (over)share that among my few k-drama watching friends I was the only one who decided to watch it as it was getting aired. Everyone else decided to wait for all episodes to drop on Netflix for the sake of flow/momentum (lol @ them as they are in for a shock) and others did not want to invest in a sad show (knowing the writer’s attachment to *sorrowful-love*) so they wanted to know how it goes first and ditched me. And I would not have managed to follow it at all had it not been for Bitches over Dramas — primarily because of the very articulate posts by Pm3 and commentary by everyone but also the kindness in interactions on this blog and the lack of toxicity on all Bitches’ threads. So, BoD became a support system of sorts and I am thankful to Pm3 for this.
Back to the shallow island, I came to the show only because I was a Kim Go-Eun fan girl, I recall reading up about it when it was announced and was curious about her getting cast with Lee Min Ho, Hallyu industry’s ultimate hottie. —- I am so glad I watched it. The show has depicted an adult love story quite successfully, too many dramas try to attempt it, even the ones categorized as romance genre do not succeed at times. This has both leads as equals, despite the differences in their class/world backgrounds. LG and TE have no hang-ups in being a tactile couple. I really appreciate that the show does not make a big deal out of it and yet the couple’s expressions/gestures of love are imp to different scenes. E.g in ep 15, beginning from their very emotional 2020 reunion with TE’s “he is here” (l have learnt to pay attention to all the yoghiz from Pm3 of course), the very sweet hospital vignettes between the two and their farewell on the bench, everything was perfect. Also, that shot of LG rumpling TE’s hair is my fav Gif now.
One more thing, and maybe I am giving too much weight to this bit but in the hospital where a nurse tells LG that TE is ready (to be taken out to the hospital park) and he replies to her, “I am her guardian”. This one admission and LG’s loud command to his troops (?) for TE’s protection in Ep 11 that she was the future queen of KOC, give me slight hope that things might work out. Also, out of 17 rules between LG/TE we are on rule 12 now, so hopefully we get to see them finishing off the list on a positive note. I feel like I am the most naïve viewer considering the writer is more than capable of giving us a tearfest at the end.
I do wish the show had explored LG leading an attack on team-LR with JY/SJ as part of his squad before, because that one scene with them where they capture LR was very cool.
Lastly, a word of appreciation for LMH/LG’s chemistry with Lady Noh. That one scene when he says good bye to her, was one of his best in this drama. He nailed the emotions and I love that he did not hug her knowing that he was off on a suicide mission (as mentioned in one of the comments here) and a hug would have been too much as he already had tears in his eyes. That scene is supposed to be a grand goodbye in a very serious (beautifully shot) setting, in that moment LG also comes across as just a boy saying bye to the woman who was his family and raised him alone. More than the LG/TE goodbye, the one with Lady Noh moved me more. I hope she has more role to play on the night of the regicide in ep 16. Fingers crossed for a good ending.
@WENchanteur
You summed up my questions on the loophole spot on! Especially about LL.
Anyway I think I shouldn’t think too much and accept it as it is.
As for the mackerel and PM Koo’s mom, I thought it was very obvious that the mom was swapped… didn’t know that it will caused so many people to be confused
@WEnchanteur, I am so entertained by your comment. I do not have the ability to read thoroughly all comments and to do them justice, however I did read this comment of yours and thank you for putting together the complaints I had. I enjoyed the show or the analysing of it, despite its shortcomings, and now I enjoy your rant very much.
I do agree that it could have been so much better. I deplore all the unnecessary, artificial and ineffective efforts it came up with to create mystery and suspense, when a more direct and clear storytelling would have increased our enjoyment and reduced our frustration. It would also have cut down our viewing time from over an hour each episode to a more manageable 45 minutes or less!
Thank you for taking the time to write your rants, all out clearly, with emotion and attitude. It was a hoot to read. With you, I can cross back to Cynical Island, shaking my head at this show. But do not forget to still come to our End-of-Show party on Shallow Island next week. We’ll have some of your favourite whiskey on hand for you!!
@WEnchanteur, I sometimes agree with the points you make, and sometimes disagree but respect your right to your opinion. There is something I feel strongly about, however, in your rants: your use of the sexist pejoratives “slut” and “bitch” when referring to a female character. I find them offensive. Yes, we jokingly call ourselves Bitches here, reclaiming the pejorative to describe ourselves (female or male) as feisty, sassy, no-nonsense, but it was clear in your writing that this was not your intended use of that word.
I’ve stayed away from this thread because I try to avoid spoilers, and I didn’t get to finish watching the two new episodes until late last night. Also, because of where I live, I’m about 3/4 of a day behind those who watch in Australia, Singapore, Kuala Lumpur, etc. Reading all the comments in this stream took me hours this afternoon!
@Syd, like you I thought Sin Jae’s ROK father had a face I’d seen before in the drama, but I double checked with the screen clipping I took of the eldest son of Prince Buyeong, and it isn’t the same man. At this point I don’t want to review episodes to find him in KOC, so if he’s important, I’ll wait for the drama to show us.
On the subject of Lee Seung Heon, Prince Buyeon’s eldest son, I want to admit that my belief he’d been replaced by his ROK doppelganger was incorrect. He was already an ally of Lee Lim, so I wonder what benefit LL would have gained by tracking LSH’s parallel. Perhaps it was insurance, in case LSH changed his loyalty. As was demonstrated by his rude, greedy, presumptuous words in conversations with his father and with Lee Gon, he hadn’t.
@Lav, I believe what Jo Yeong wanted to convey to Lee Gon was that he’d seen Song Jeong Hye, the ROK doppelganger of LG’s deceased mother.
@TB, you wondered, “What’s the role of Song Jeong Hye? YoYo kid does not speak to everyone and why does the king instruct JY to find her?” Several times in the drama she’s referred to as bait for Lee Gon, since she looks like his deceased mother. I believe Lee Gon isn’t particularly sentimental about her–he says faces are just symbols–but he knows Lee Lim will try to use her against him. Lee Gon may want to protect her, if possible, as well as keep her from being used as a weapon against him.
@No One, Lee Lim has not had to eat or drink while in Portal Land because he’s never spent an extended amount of time inside. To keep himself at a constant age for 25 years, he must have been in and out consistently for shorter lengths of time. If he stayed out too long, he’d age. If he stayed in too long, he’d lose control of his prisoner, pawns, and minions. I calculated that Lee Lim would need to spend only about 12 minutes a month in Portal Land to maintain his age for 25 years. (1 minute inside = 1 hour outside. Approx. 8766 hours per year. 8766 x 25 = 219,150 hours. Divide by 60 = approx. 3,653 minutes inside. Months in 25 years is 12 x 25 = 300. Divide 3,653 by 300 = 12.18 minutes per month inside, average.)
Lee Gon is staying in Portal Land for 4-5 months to catch up 26 years, so I do wonder with others how he fed himself and took care of other necessities of life. He told TE he stayed in the same all-black outfit because he didn’t have money to buy himself new clothes. Let’s hope he at least washed his clothing, because he must’ve gotten bloody while using a traitor as a body shield during the gun fight. Perhaps another property of Portal Land is that while inside, since the body stays the same (doesn’t age), it does not need to be sustained with food and drink. He must’ve also done without sleep, as he’d lose track of the passage of time.
@Iamastonished, I loved your comment about KES showing us the relics of the mind like a museum of dreams. Wonderful!
@Snow Flower, it is likely Prince Buyeong’s family didn’t need to move away from Corea as long as Crown Prince Lee Gon was next in line of succession. But when LG became king as a young child, needing PB to stay as his advisor, PB’s children were sent away as protection for all concerned. LG needed to be protected from a challenge to the throne, PB needed to be able to serve his king without the appearance of conflicted loyalty, and PB’s children needed to avoid being permanently neutralized for seeming to be a threat.
@GB, I also wondered what happened to 2020 LL’s body left in a pool of blood on the floor of the king’s wardrobe. Shall we come up with a theory? LL’s ROK doppelganger wouldn’t need to be used as a body double if a dead LL was found in the palace after the coup. But too much of the timeline would be affected and changed if Lee Seong Jae, LL’s ROK doppelganger, remained alive. So I’m going to suggest that LL’s 2020 body and blood soon vaporized, as did his 2020 half of Manpasikjeok. You noted that LL, during coup we saw at the beginning of the drama, already had blood on his collar as he entered Cheonjongo. Good catch! But I compared (lovely task) the splatter marks after he killed 2020 LL to the blood on his collar in 1994 and they’re very different. I assume he and the other traitors had to fight their way into Cheonjongo, and we only saw the last few moments of that process. Also, right before the coup when LL is in the king’s bedroom standing at the case displaying Four Tiger Sword, there is no blood on him. LL is, however, in the same clothing in all three scenes.
Also, @GB, your comment was so touching, that LG has to travel straight as bullet without aiming too hard to get to TE.
@Arihsi, I loved your comment about the severe effects of isolation, and how LG depended on TE to be his Polaris star to direct him through time. Beautifully said!
@Tomato 101, I agree with you that one of the best character pairings in this drama is Lee Gon and Head Court Lady Noh. Their relationship is believable: the caring, the teasing, the frustrations, the nagging…and the deep sadness at the thought of parting.
@mychoiyoung, I liked your explanation of why Lee Lim’s 2020 half of Manpasikjeok vaporized, but Lee Gon’s didn’t.
@TD, you wondered why 25 years after being sliced in half by Four Tiger Sword, the cut ends of Manpasikjeok are now looking ragged, I think it is showing that it is coming to the end of its life in its compromised state. It was never meant to be cut in half. It has not been used for its original purpose, and the two halves are at war with each other. It has been put to hard use opening the portal many times, and now extra strain is put on it for time travel. There is always a cost for using magic. We have seen an Easter egg about this at the end of every episode when the animated logo plays. It is different than the opening logo. As the ending logo plays, the top of the last character in the large type (ㅣ) is sliced diagonally by a ray of light, then debris begins rising off a corner of the sliced edge. I wish I knew how to make a gif, but here’s a still: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Wwzgss8MKdigWWHXWkoNgNY_gz_I33Fh/view?usp=sharing
@WEnchanteur, you were displeased about the depiction of the phone call TE made after she was stabbed by Luna. I thought it a beautiful depiction of her character. She didn’t call in help for herself, but sent the police to check on her father, as she feared for his life. Luna’s parting words had been a threat, and TE chose to protect him above saving herself. Luna: “Your dad said he’ll head out later to patrol the area, but I saw some punks who looked like hoodlums going that way. Why? You’ve never lost anyone in your life? Then you should get used to it.”
I’m a KGE fan so I’m going to “scold” LG here…
I find him very irresponsible for not telling TE about his suicide mission , he may say he does not want TE to worry , but how can he just say he will come back , if little LG may die and big LG may not even exist, then who is going to come back ?? LG the ghost ??
He can arrange to name his heir, he can bid farewell to Lady Noh ( its quite obvious the way he told her he may not be coming back ) , but he just dropped a one liner, I will come back , to TE !!!!
And thank God our Queen has the brains to figure out LG may die anyway so she follows him ….
Sorry to All LMH fans…i know I should scold the scriptwriter
LoL
Ahhh @Welmaris may I please hold onto your coat tails while you acknowledge everyone who wrote such detailed analysis include yourself for me to thank them all for their hard work done. I can’t remember everyone’s name and particular comment but you summarised it well and I agree with you!
@grace I thought the music was familiar too especially so when the two men came out with their long coats in the ending credits! Thank you for providing the link!
My one wish was that if only the OST of TKEM was as good as Goblin’s it would have helped soothed the angst I feel over this drama
@Welmaris Thanks for your kind words. 🙂
As usual your fantastic attention to detail just takes my breath away. I didn’t look hard at the closing credits logo. I did notice things like how the parts shifted but I didn’t bother to check on its looking progressively different each episode!!! I don’t know … on the one hand it’s nice to be able to catch that, but on the other, lots of people turn off before the credits or can’t stay to watch all the way to the end, especially of a more than 1 hour show. They’d miss it because it’s so obscure.
And then interpreting the slicing of the logo is yet another ‘hurdle’ to get over. I tend to agree with detractors on the point that the show should have made it somewhat easier (not too easy but not this hard!) for viewers to catch more of the Easter eggs and clues, so that they could enjoy themselves more.
I like what you say about the reason for Buyeong’s son living abroad. It makes sense. I see in the family photo, that there were 2 women of about Seung Hun’s age… I thought one of them would be his sister ie that Buyeong had a son and a daughter. But we hear nothing of her at all.
I still have no time to go further, to really read or chime in with more posts. Catch ya later!
@GB
Thanks for enduring me, lol! I don’t post a lot of comments, so it’s easier to follow. However, it’s often full, like here again. I feel more like to be drown in the sea than on any island. As I try to enjoy the drama as much as I can, it’s probably why I get angry sometimes. ^^
It’s said quickly in my comment, but every time the script talks about useless things, it doesn’t do it for useful things in return. Large parts of the story are not treated with the depth and logic that would be necessary. It’s the process of blindness.
For example, episode 15, there are questions that all the viewers ask themselves, about what is going on. Too many important points are treated too quickly, and as many important points generated are ignored. And here, I don’t think there will be any answers or flashbacks, because there is only one episode left. And that’s also something that happened too often in the drama. Rather than focusing on what’s the point of the drama, there’s always a diversion somewhere else. And now the drama is in an emergency situation, with even less time to devote to it all.
Here, the whole part of what Lee Lim (LL2) is doing is overlooked during Lee Gon’s journey into the future. We don’t even know what happens to LL1’s corpse! The consequences of Lee Gon’s temporal changes are evaded and told in a quick dialogue. Even the actual process of time travel and the process of merging are not shown. (By the way, all this has created a potential new plot-hole that I will try to study further and explain). As well as all the dangers resulting from Lee Gon’s journey. There aren’t even any details about how Lee Gon survives for 4 months in the in-between world. Does he need to eat? If so, how? If not, why? Is it important to know that? In my opinion yes, because it’s a fantastic and interesting element. Everybody wants to know more about this place. Why it’s day, then it’s night. It’s spectacular. It helps to accept that the story is not an illogical fantasy but makes sense.
Doing all this takes time, and that time cannot be cut off from the sentimental story, so we have to take that time elsewhere. So the first step was to eliminate at least 50% of the characters from the drama before writing the story.
Sorry for being unfaithful to this blog, I also posted some comments on soompi, because it was faster and easier for exchanges, and also for short humorous comments. Here, it would have overloaded the comments.
Here’s my explanation from there, regarding the elimination of characters.
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It’s hard to tell which character is too many, because I can’t remember all their names.
Then, the drama isn’t over, and you have to have proof that a character was useless, or rather have the means to know how the drama could have been re-written to omit that character.
I’ll give my usual example, with a character already discarded.
The old prince (whose name I can’t remember).
I observed two things about him:
– The information given by this character could have been given by Lady Noh. Moreover, he has a conflict scene with the PM Koo, which would have been better with Lady Noh.
– The character contributes to the scattering effect of the drama, because unlike some environmental characters, he has scenes all to himself!
Environment character: A character that is easy to remember, has no storyline or elaborate time-consuming background, and only appears in scenes where a main character appears. For example, the secretary Moo. Even if you don’t remember that character, it doesnt matter.
My answer was:
Start by eliminating 60% of the characters.
I don’t give this percentage by chance.
There are two worlds, but each world has the same number of characters as a normal drama. So to get back to an acceptable perception for the viewer and correspond to a normal drama, you have to divide that number by two. Plus, there are still extra characters!
I started to calculate this based on other dramas, but it took too much time, so I gave up after some rudimentary calculations and empirical evidences.
I had fun doing the same thing with the splitting.
splitting: number of scenes with a different context and different characters.
The splitting of episode 1 of TKEM is higher than other dramas, but is acceptable, except for the adventures of Lee Lim (the time of appearance of his associated minor characters being too short, it could be postponed in a later flashback, or the character abandoned, we know that he kills his double and the clone of Lee Gon only). Otherwise PM Koo is well introduced, as well as Lady Noh. This split increases in worrying proportions later on. It creates this effect of rapidly reducing the viewer’s concentration, and the difficulty of following different storylines. Thanks to TKEM, thanks to this drama, I discovered things that I didn’t know, or that seemed so obvious to me that I never asked myself questions about it.
More characters = More splitting, if these characters have scenes that focus on them.
Then, according to this splitting:
– The number of characters introduced at the same time as a main character (which makes it easier to acquire the character).
– Characters introduced in scenes with a high emotional value (one of the means to favour natural cognitive acquisition
– Redundancy and screening duration of apparition needed to acquire the character in audience memory.
– Finally, the fact that the character has a developed background or not.
Here, it is important to avoid developing a background for many secondary characters, while on the contrary, it is important for main characters. And even there, it can become counterproductive. Finally, it all depends on how much time you want to spend on it, or whether it’s better to go for a more intense storyline. My philosophy is that a character’s background should be reflected in his actions, not by an excess of side scenes. Even in 16 episodes, time is limited. Short flashbacks can be effective. Of course in some dramas, it would be the period during childhood. But these are dramas that have purer storylines than TKEM, which on the other hand is very full of scattered elements and complex plots.
The elimination of character is not necessarily total.
It can be characters with functions that can be merged. Example, Eun-Sup and Shin-Jay (I had fun writing options for this situation).
It can be characters transformed into environment characters.
The problem with doing this is that you have to rewrite the drama, of course!
And to imagine that, the drama has to be finished.
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The story, however, has very few plot-hole despite its complexity.
To put all this in place, it is more of a consultant’s job than a scriptwriter’s. The type of consultant who does not give advice, but carries out the analysis of the functioning of large companies. Hundreds of flow diagrams, to describe all the operations.
Just see here the articles about timestop, the location of the characters during the drama chronology. All this is very complicated, and of course difficult to do. It’s a mainly intellectual work. That’s why I mention the experience and the quality of methodology of the screenwriter at this level. Without forgetting her list of “things that make sense”, and which must be disseminated within the various scenes, which is impossible for a screenwriter who writes her story as it goes along.
During the time it is created, there is also at least the triple of contingencies. Ideas that the screenwriter could use, but that’s not certain. And sometimes those ideas involve changes in the timeline. Which becomes an infernal labyrinth in a script like this.
But there’s a point at which it’s imperative to decide what will or won’t have. It’s one of the first missed moments in this drama. It’s as if the screenwriter has already lost herself in her labyrinth. The level of mastery is less than the audience imagines, even with the best writers. Once the drama is over, it’s always easy to say this or that is not done properly. But before having the final structure (which is never quite definitive), the screenwriter is in a very fuzzy, rather messy world, and you have to manage to hold it all together, alone in the face of that.
James Cameron: “Bombarding yourself with stimuli is all very well, but screenwriting is a task best done alone, according to Cameron. It also requires a lot of balls apparently. At some point you’ve got to sit down and write. So for that, I isolate. Day-to-day life can really intrude on that free-association process. Writing a screenplay for me is like juggling. It’s like, how many balls can you get in the air at once? All those ideas have to float out there to a certain point and then they’ll crystallize into a pattern. It sometimes takes me three or four days to get into a head space where I can do that and if I get interrupted at any point I have to start over. So I couldn’t be one of these staff writers who hangs out, does a long lunch, goes back, and writes six pages in the afternoon.”
https://www.fastcompany.com/1683096/6-lessons-in-creativity-from-james-cameron
What James Cameron describes here can take months for a drama like TKEM. As a result, I often feel that I am unfairly accusing KES, and that it was probably at an early stage that she should have intervened, and dropped a few balls on the floor. I find it hard to understand the moment when KES lacked instinct. It could rest on good key scenes first and connect them into a solid storyline, rather than getting lost in all directions.
Things are more homemade than all the books on the subject suggest. And I prefer interviews. There’s no miracle recipe. And even if she gets a colleague to read her script and that colleague tells her it’s not right, what can she do about it at that point? Will even her assistant dare to make a remark to her? I mean, you can rewrite an entire film, but not such a complex 16-episode drama.
@Alexmar97, I agree with you that there is only one timeline, not multiple. I also believe there is only one Lee Gon, one Tae Eul, etc. I think we are shown the PD’s concept in two scenes where we see Lee Gon staring at multiple reflections of himself: one when he chases Luna after the rowing competition and loses her by the glass building, and the other when he visits the exhibit of Joseon kings’ portraits.
I checked the definition of reflection in a number of dictionaries, and what I thought was a simple concept gets technical and scientific really fast. So I went to Simple English Wikipedia with the query “What is reflection in simple words?” and found this: “Reflection is the change in direction of a wave at a boundary between two different media, so that the wave moves back into the medium it came from. The most common examples include the reflection of light, sound and water waves.” (encyclopediasimple.wikipedia.org). Okaaaay. Simple…yeah. But I thought it important to include this here since the whole premise of parallel worlds, as we learn in this drama, hinges on the behavior of waves. 2020 Lee Gon bounces back from where he came (eventually).
The 2020 adult Lee Gon who goes back to 1994 to save child Lee Gon is the same person that child grew up to be during the intervening 26 years. He only grew up once: he did not have to repeat the process. The Lee Gon who spends 4-5 months waiting in Portal Land, while being absent from time moving at a different pace in 2020 and 1994+, is the same person who grew up from that child and journeyed back from 2020. The Lee Gon who on occasion briefly appears in time outside Portal Land remains himself alongside earlier versions without merging with, or replacing, any versions. Other than seeing and checking the pulse on his child self, Lee Gon never actually encounters himself as he works his way back to 2020.
Lee Lim is a different matter (wave?), however. When 2020 Lee Lim travels back and meets 1994 Lee Lim, 2020 Lee Lim is eliminated and replaced. That Lee Lim who existed from 1994 to 2020, accumulating experiences, having conscious and unconscious thoughts, etc…that Lee Lim is dead and gone. The remaining Lee Lim continues his existence for 26 years, a second existence with his own conscious and unconscious thoughts, etc. His character, his essence, is different: he is more monstrous than Lee Lim 1.0. When Lee Lim 2.0 gets to the point in time in 2020 from which Lee Lim 1.0 departed, Lee Lim 2.0 does not have to go back again, but can continue to move forward. He is not compelled to loop in time. That’s why Lee Lim 2.0 and Lee Gon can meet in the present.
We are shown how the changes made when Lee Gon interacts with the past affect the people in his (future) present. When he’s back at 1994 Dec 22, Lee Gon makes a 211 call from the pay phone to the police to report the impending death of his ROK doppelganger family. In 2020 TE gets a phone call from Gyeong Ran of the forensics team. GR tells TE, “I stumbled upon something very strange. This fine voice sounds very familiar.” She plays the recording for TE. “It’s that guy, right?…Does this make sense though? There’s a record of him calling and filing a report in 1994. It wasn’t there last time.” It wasn’t there last time. GR is able to distinguish between what had been her present memory and what was inserted from the past. And that unlocks in TE the memory from her past that “wasn’t there last time.” Stunned, TE says, “I have new memories.” However, when she and LG met on Election Day in 2016, she had memories then of having met him when she was age 5. We see the mystical, instant connection of past and present as a message Lee Gon is writing on the phone booth shelf on 2016.4.13 appears character by character before TE’s eyes in 2020. TE is not having to relive her past: her new past is being overlaid on her present. I love how this shot conveys that concept. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1Y79jEvKh8HBGwzr7j1wAa3XnUK2T0hxY/view?usp=sharing
I agree. Will answer you on blog. Thanks, Welmaris.
@Welmaris – Your dedication to commenting is astounding! Thank you for your attention to the story. I like your observation about the logo representing the cut on the flute.
Anybody have thoughts on this one bit in Ep. 15? In Ep. 15 LG says to LL when he catches him in the time freeze: that he got caught because “someone sets the time, someone chases after you, someone prays for you to get caught, someone fights you.” Is it LG, SJ, TE and YJ, in that order? This suggests to me all of them will go back to the night of treason – but excuse me, Lt. JTE better be doing more than just praying this time. I think the roles will switch (I hope!!)
Now onto comments on Ep. 15 (predictions left for the other thread). Things I liked:
That my girl TE took matters into her own hands. I’m not entirely happy with how we got there, but I’m glad nonetheless. I was miffed when I saw all the boys teamed up for time travel and left her out. So when she pieces it all together and demands the flute piece from SJ, I cheered. LG needs to save the world. But JY and TE need to save him. SJ would have done it because he’s good, and LG point blank told him he’s giving up his life for this. JY has always accepted his duty. But TE is from another world and grew into her fate. And I do think she believed LG when he promised he’d come back. Even against crazy odds, when had that faith steered her wrong? But then the flowers disappeared, and it’s like she woke up from a daze. Sometimes it takes something drastic to know what we can or can’t live with. In Ep. 15 LG gave up on their love for the sake of the world, but TE took up that mantle. She’s fighting as hard as he used to and it was gratifying to see. If she’s not little LG’s savior that is one hell of a missed opportunity.
Su-Jin’s death. Good way to raise the stakes. Could have happened sooner. Don’t think we needed to dedicate all of that precious view time across 16 episodes to the pregnant ladies, though.
Ji-Hun’s Mom’s role – I really liked her by the end. I wanted her to get back at LL so badly. I think her steady growth into the story made sense for how LL was brought down.
Things I’m thoroughly meh about:
Luna. Luna just wanted to vent her frustrations via stabbing, hence why it was non-lethal?? Lol. And then TE punched her – truly two peas in a pod. I wish these two had a relationship with as much development as JY/ES. They could have really sold Luna steadily moving towards the side of good. Instead we get this bizarre situation whereby Luna stabs TE but TE is like “no hard feelings, sis,” then they talk and trust each other on instinct (fairly on brand for TE at least). I’m not saying it didn’t work – I’m saying I’m astonished that it worked decently. Luna had this sense of humanity I think the whole audience saw, so it’s not unbelievable where we ended up, but damn if the story didn’t take some shortcuts. That’s the power of KGE!
Things I didn’t like (I’m sorry; this will be long):
The pacing and editing of the story. This is why I had been waiting for the time travel to start since Eps. 11-12. Like others have said (thanks @Wenchanteur) things that paid off bore little relation to the things/people that we devoted time to. I still love the show, but for me this is where the extra padding for the first 10 episodes really showed their weight. This is my guess as to what happened – the writer thought the doppelganger concept alone would rein people in for the first half. They wanted to hold off on the time traveling because it is all about the night of treason. The return really only needed 4 people involved, and it only needed a few realizations (that the worlds had to reset/LG had to risk his life). JY didn’t need any growth for the night of treason – he would have gone in Ep. 1 and Ep. 15, no questions asked. That’s why he barely gets any development – his hug with ES was cute and tugged at our heartstrings, yes, but it didn’t have a lot of buildup. The hug relied on that same tearjerky quality that Kdramas are really good at – making short familial bonds resonate on screen (think every patient and their families in Hospital Playlist). LG, SJ and TE were the only ones that needed development, and frankly SJ got over developed, and LG got shortchanged. KSR – I’m so sorry, but she was a waste of a character (the actress was great, though, and deserves huge props).
Yes, even LG got shortchanged. See where we start on Ep. 14 and where we end in Ep. 15. The same guy that risked his life to leave little messages for his girlfriend through time has now decided he’s going to die and make it so she never remembers him. The whiplash is so strong that TE goes numb from it until the end of Ep. 15 lol. There’s nuance to this obviously, but I feel like that emotional journey should have taken more time. Or more voiceovers!! What does this production team have against voiceovers in an overly complicated show? Do you think any casual viewers remember LG’s earlier scenes with PB, where he says fate is when you risk your life to get somewhere?? No way. It’s not that the hospital scenes don’t work, but that the character is acting from a place we are not allowed to access fully. LG only admits to going to his death after all the cute hospital scenes have already happened. In the penultimate episode of the show, we should have been wrung dry with all the unsaid things between these two. Instead, we only somewhat do.
So in the first half the writer thinks doppelgangers are cool because actors doing double roles is cool. But the only interesting doppelganger sets were ES/JY and Luna/TE. Luna/TE didn’t even come into play until what, Ep 7? In the meantime, the writer has the love story to develop, too, but she has a vision for it – “it’s prettier in hindsight.” Theme wise it was really ambitious – TE/LG have very little information and are skipping everything. But they live in two worlds and if they don’t hurry up they don’t get anything. By, Ep. 15, it pays off – they really had to go that fast, because now they will be separated forever. TE putting her faith in the weird time traveler the second time they meet was beautiful, with how it was interspersed with her dying self asking her past self to hold him. But the prettier in hindsight concept shouldn’t have been a basis to throw basic romance story progression out the window. It was depressing to rewatch Eps. 3-6 and see how TE’s side of things was relegated to the “second half” of each episode set. 24 hours later is too late to show that the girl is not immune to the weird King claimant! It leaves a bad taste in viewer’s mouths, because TE kept a pretty good poker face around him the first go around. Poor KGE had to do some wild things with the script that was given. That one scene where she just repeats “Evidence that leads to other evidence” when thinking about the Lee Sang Do case but also about LG. I mean – TE couldn’t think anything else?? Saying anything else about LG would have given away the plot?
Or the meeting in Ep. 10 – don’t get me started on the editing. Someone went and said – there I got a 1-second reaction shot of KGE looking forlorn and embarrassed in the bamboo forest, I have the setup now let me spend 5 minutes showing LMH coming in on his white horse and her reacting to that. Nobody watches shows glued to the screen. TE’s initial emotional state was much more important than Lady Noh reciting a poem – even if the two things were related, if we are not with TE in that moment, feeling that uncertainty, then it will just seem completely out of left field when she bursts into tears.
Anyways, I still love this show. I just didn’t want the complaints of it to be so many and so well founded. I’ll see everyone in the predictions thread!!
@Welmaris Thank you so much ! You explained it very well I understand some parts now. However I got this nagging question if LL2020 died and all his thoughts and memories perished with him in 1994. How would LL1994 know all the things LL2020 did like his 2020 orders to his henchmen or who he killed? Cos they were done by LL2020. Or is it that the moment LL2020 died there was only LL1994 with one set of memories and his 2020 memories turned to ashes like his flute unlike LG and TE who have two sets of memories?
@Packmule3 am so glad to hear you are rested and ready to write ! Am waiting for your thoughts !
Hi @Sofrito – that bit during the time freeze sounded imp to me too. I thought it was about the good side’s general fight against the enemy. Someone praying for LR’s defeat could also be Lady Noh. On that day LJH’s mother played a role in destroying LR’s so-called grand plan on the late queen’s death anniversary. Other steps/duties for catching LR could be shared by LG/TE/JY/SJ. Re: chasing, other than LG, TE has also been chasing LR with her team, as we know she has been the lead investigator of the string of murders by LR and his terrorist minions in ROK. Everyone is involved in fighting team-LR, time setting is done by LG. You have an imp point about TE being in ROK and not KOC for taking him down while the boys are in KOC. Getting stabbed got in her way I assume and also because LG is planning on letting his minor-self die in 1994. And yes it would totally suck if TE is not part of the final fight and is stuck in ROK pinning for the hero, waiting to be reunited. That would be criminal. UGGHHH. I mean the show has emphasized on TE’s bravery and her sense of duty/responsibility towards protecting citizens in her country throughout. Even the show’s official synopsis, detective JTE tries to protect the people and the man she loves. It would not make any sense if it is just JY/LG on the night of the big fight.
@Carolstar 2020LL died along with his memories. 1994LL couldn’t get 2020LL’s memories because he hasn’t lived what his future self has. So the 1994LL will continue living his life, crafting his evil plan the same way 2020LL did, all the way until he actually becomes 2020LL,which is the one Na-Ri was reading the palm to. It’s a bit hard to explain.
@sofrito, I answer about “why”.
JTE – Why did you stab me when you didn’t really mean to kill me?
LUNA – The writer needed a cliffhanger.
JTE – Oh, okay. So every time the writer needs a cliffhanger you stab someone?
LUNA – That’s pretty much the concept…
@packmule, wanted to tell you that I just dropped you an email with a bunch of space time graphs. 🙂
@Wenchanteur: LOL!
@Welmaris: I liked your explanation about the timeline. Makes sense!
Will catch up with the other comments later…
Hi @Bia – We’re on the same wavelength! I like your idea about Lady Noh and LJH’s mom, and also that LG’s speech shows how differently he and the good side operate from LL. On TE, I think KES has been good to her so far, so I think we’ll get a good brave moment from her in Ep. 16. knocking on wood. I’m just a little afraid she won’t
@Wenchanteur – cliffhanger via stab or poison, lol. Having Luna almost kill the leads two episodes in a row was noticeable to say the least
10th rule – tell me you’ll come back.
11th rule – no matter what happens, you have to come back.
12th rule – catch LL and even if the door closes, open all the doors in the universe and return to me. Promise me you’ll do that.
LG promised to come back so there’s our happy ending. So sad to see them part ways again.
@Alxmar97 Thank you for simplifying it. Am on a slow train here🤭 but I got it now phew!😅
@JT7
I watched ll Mere, loved it. The architecture of the house really set the tone of the film. The mittens floating away…great image. I will follow up with this director and watch his other films; seeing how I have some time on my hands right now. His name is Lee Hyun-seung. Thanks for providing the link. If you if you have any other recommendations please send them along.
Hello there! I wanted to say thank you because of this blog’s existence, I could understand this drama really well. I always love reading all the theories and explanation here. Keep up the good work! I’m rooting all of you <3
Now, I have a question. I still don't understand anything about PM Koo. What was the reason she kill her counterpart when she has all she needs in KOC? Or is she the one from ROK and kill the real PM Koo? I think not because after she know that her mom what switch, she felt mad and sad. But how did she know that her mom could be switch? What does it relates the news that Sejin died form a car accident? What she meant that they used Jiyeong for that accident? Overall, I don't get what Lee Lim trying to do with PM Koo.
That's all my questions for now. I hope you could explain to use a bit what actually happens. Thank you in advance! <3
@Iamastonished: Am so glad you liked it! It was such a beautiful film.
@HoeBinnie131: She is the real PM Koo. The reason for killing her double is not shown, neither are we told if it was LL/his henchmen/PM Koo that does the killing. All we know is that her double is dead. I think it’s because PM Koo asked LL to show her that the other world (ROK) exists, and in order for her to be walking around in ROK without detection, her double needs to be eliminated. But I’m not sure.
In the scene before PM calls her mum, we hear on the news that Prince BY’s granddaughter (Se Jin, who was supposed to be announced as the next in line for the throne) was killed in an accident caused by Ji Yeong (who is PM Koo’s ex-SIL, the rich pregnant lady). PM knows LL has been switching people around, and had suspected that LL might swop Ji Yeong with her double (previously in an earlier episode, she tells Ji Yeong to make sure she gives birth in this kingdom). After hearing the news, she thinks that LL must have swopped Ji Yeong with her double, and has made her double kill Se Jin (however, she doesn’t know that LL has done 2 swops actually, and the real Ji Yeong is the one that kills Se Jin). Upon hearing this, she starts to worry that LL might also swop others close to her (her mum), so she calls her mum to check. And finds out her mum has indeed been swopped.
LL was just using PM Koo as a pawn in his quest to get the flute, but her mission failed since she was kicked out of office by LG. Now she makes things worse by showing interest in getting the flute herself. LL, by swopping her mum and getting her ex-SIL involved in SeJin’s death, is showing her that he’s still in control of the situation and that she better not mess with him.
@sofrito: I was also pondering about those 4 that he mentioned. Wrt praying I’d agree with @bia that it is Lady Noh, since she’s been the one that has been repeatedly seen praying for LG’s safety. I’m also wondering if she might also play in part in saving 1994 LG in the finale, as the 5 who would help the 1994 LG (2020 LG, JY, TE, SJ and Lady Noh)
About the person setting the time… I was puzzled as there didn’t seem to be any scenes indicating a timing/date was set, except one. This is when LG meets Song Jeong Hye, and after the whole speech about how LG was the cause of JH’s death, she tells LG to meet her 2 days before his mother’s death anniversary. I wonder, if that might have been what LG is referring to? SJH is telling him indirectly that something is going to happen 2 days before the memorial, and to be prepared, and I would think LG would know that would be the time to look for LL. Which might be how he managed to catch LL then.
@JT7 – Thanks JT7. I like your idea that it was SJH who set the time and that Lady Noh rounds out the set as the praying one. It also seems pretty likely Lady Noh will show up again in 1994 – especially since it’s still not clear to me what the “plan” she talked about in Ep. 1 was. The plan might involve the night of treason