The thread is now open for spoilers, discussions, and analyses.
The first Open Thread is here: Vincenzo: Open Thread
The second Open Thread is here: Vincenzo: Open Thread, Part 2
This thread is moderated by @grace, @Janey, and @Fern. You’re all doing a great job!
Gifs from yesdramas’ tumblr.
lol. I love that elbow nudge.
credit: yesdramas’ tumblr
Enjoy the show!
Thank you very much, @packmule3. 🍜🍷💐
This is in response to @Juriel raising the following in thread 2:
“Dear @Fern, and others interested: In Episode 9 (about 52″ in) Babel Chairman Hang Jang-Seo stirs up his terrible brother’s ire over something he has arranged without consultation. I think it’s the raid on Vincenzo’s apartment which didn’t go quite as it should. However, after he has been screamed at and had a glass thrown at him, he calmly returns to his breakfast, and casts a strange glance upwards. Have you any ideas what’s behind this small incident?”
I think @ahrisi explained well how HJS has now figured out his brother’s weakness – but I also cannot help but think him looking at the sky / heaven was him connecting something else in his head about CY and JW.
Here’s a few of my observations / dots in my head in relation to the heaven / stars theme I have not been able to connect:
– When JW reveals himself as the ‘King of Babel’ his powerpoint shows him sitting on a throne wearing a crown, behind a starlit sky;
– When Vincenzo and CY walk away from the reporters in episode 7 after she has declared she will take down Babel she is wearing a black top with white dots (reminiscent of a starlit night sky);
– When Cha Young stays over at Vincenzo’s place for the first time in episode 9, Vincenzo says she can stay as long as she likes until she feels safe. Cha Young then looks up at his ceiling and says she can’t stay with him because of the ’hideous’ stars on his ceiling, which he then tells her were put up by the previous tenant;
– When JW phones her the night after Cha Young stays at Vincenzo’s apartment, he recognizes she is not at her own apartment – but part of me also feels he recognises the apartment?
– The starlit sky obviously also features heavily in the last scene of episode 10. We see both V and CY and JW set against the backdrop of it;
– There’s more. I have also noticed another white / black pattern when it comes to CY and JW. When CY puts up the fake tears show at the pharmacy, JW hands her a hand kerchief that’s white with small black squares;
– The pattern on Vincenzo’s table when he first moves in is also white with black dots / squares;
– In addition, Cha Young’s kitchen tile display is also white / black (clearly seen in episode 9 after she is attacked and Vincenzo tells her she can’t stay with him);
– When JW beats up his brother on the ice – before the lights go on in the ice rink in that scene, we see darkness with a few ice rink lights scattered across it (stars theme again). Then there’s also the imagery of the white ice with the black dots on it (the black ice hockey pucks)
I guess this is a very complicated and overthought way of saying CY, V and JW’s connection runs deeper than just two men loving the same woman. Mr Hong and Cha Young both wear purple. Cha Young starts wearing purple as soon as she starts taking on Babel with Vincenzo. Purple symbolises royalty. At first I thought it was to symbolise CY (and V, who also starts wearing purple) taking on her father’s quest against Babel. But now I wonder if CY is related to anyone in that family.
What also makes me say this is that the pose she takes on in her pilates scene is one of a hunter. A picture of her in this hunting pose is also on her office wall. I wonder if she represents Nimrod somehow who is a key character in the original Bible story about the Tower of Babel. I have not yet worked out the exact meaning of this though.
It has also not escaped me that Vincenzo stared at Cha Young’s pictures for a suspiciously long time when he entered Mr Hong’s house. Besides it being a subtext for him clearly taing an interest in her (because he started staring at the pictures as soon as Mr Hong said there was nothing worth staring at in his house), I also can’t help but think he recognized her – maybe from when he was a child.
I also think it’s clear Mr Hong’s quest to take down Babel was a personal one not an altruisitic one (CY accuses him of as much), nor was his dedication to help Vincenzo’s mother (his one and only public defense case) born out of selflessness. There is guilt there. And it was odd how he said it would have been nice if Vincenzo’s mom could have been a second mom to Cha Young.
OK sorry for this stream of consciousness :))) the short answer is I think JW’s brother worked out a connection between JW and CY, and I think there’s more to it than him realising JW is interested in CY romantically. And V and JW and CY’s pasts are connected in a way that’s not been revealed yet.
If you made it this far, thank you so much. I am enjoying your comments so much.
Thanks for this new thread @PM3! The commenters have all been great and insightful and fun, just like this series.
@rh – I had a theory that Mr Hong’s determination to fight and win against Babel was personal and may be due to his wife’s death. I’ll have to watch out for the star theme. Thanks for pointing them out.
The plaza tenants have slipped about the “gold” a couple of times in the presence of V and Mr. Nam. Will V catch on that? Will he share the gold? Also looking forward to more of the tenants’ talents to come out. Those scissor fighting skills of Mr Tak were scary!
Mr Cho is becoming impatient vs his calm demeanor before. I hope he continues to be an ally of V and not be an enemy.
What an interesting and searching analysis. To this point, I had not thought very deeply about the star theme, but it’s definitely there; and I did place a mental marker against the stars on the ceiling in Episode 1, feeling that they might carry some symbolic significance, to be revealed in due course. Vincenzo also murmurs the words of “Nessun Dorma” as he surveys the burning of Babel’s chemical depository in Episode 4, and those also refer to stars: “Set, stars. At dawn I will win.”
This whole series is just so wonderfully complex.
First thanks @pm3 for opening another thread. 🍪🍪🍪❤️
@rh, thanks for connecting the dots on the stars! I have also not thought deeply about it, I thought about it when V first moved in but it was so early then. And yes somehow these characters are going to be connected in some way or another. The significance of stars is an important theme to ponder on.
I’m wondering, what happened to the eldest son of Babel? The photo they have did not look like JW at all. Did he get plastic surgery, or was JW another son who killed the real oldest son? It all sounds like different princes fighting/killing each other for the king’s seat.
Looking forward to tomorrow’s episode!
Also, this drama has led me to learn about the Opioid Overdose Crisis and the huge lawsuit that is still going on. I didn’t realize it is so recent. They changed the drug name in the drama of course but we know what it points to.
V: I’m sure you know about Babel Pharmaceutical’ new drug, RDU-90’s main component.
Lawyer Hong: It’s a substance called coisanic.
V: Are you also aware that coisanic is considered narcotic?
L.Hong: A narcotic? That’s news to me.
Mr.Nam: According to our expert’s opinion it just relieves pain.
V: Babel Pharmaceuticals deceived you, and everyone was in on it.
L.Hong: Gosh, I had no idea. So if this drug hits the market, aren’t they basically selling narcotics?
V: Yes. Offically, more people will be addicted to painkillers. What’s more dangerous is, because of narcotic pain meds, more people will become drug addicts like in the States.
Mr.Nam: This drug might open up the doors to mass-distribution or narcotics in Korea.
Episode 11: all I can say is thank goodness for Mr. An and his comic relief. I’m still shaking.
Ironic how cross V becomes by the tenants saying finders, keepers regarding the gold. It wasn’t his, either.
@Fern – Also thanks to Mr. Corn Salad… that had me laughing for a long time!
Glad they found out who Babo is, officially. Will see how this will change the dynamics.
I rewatched the intro animation and Vincenzo was prominently featured with a 2-faced JW. But no girl or CY or did I miss that? Does that mean no love line? The hug scene needs rewatching. I got the flutters but both deny it.
I will post more thoughts after the episode tomorrow.
Hi, @Janey. I also noticed that there was no female symbols in the intro, but V is framed by a heart – King of Hearts?
There may be no love line. My thoughts regarding the hug: I think she may be more concerned that he not be too uncomfortable around her. She was testing herself, she said, but she was really testing him. He didn’t respond, so she said what she did. But his face and the way he gripped that chair very hard said that he was affected.
Wow I thought that was an amazing episode – I laughed, I cried (V’s scene with his mom) and I sat on the edge of my seat.
By the way, I have worked out the stars / universe theme is because the biblical Tower of Babel also functioned as an astronomical watch tower.
I have a theory about the 2-faced JW – I think that image hints at JW not being the legitimate heir to the Babel Company. I think Vincenzo is. That makes JW, his brother and V all half-brothers. I think the storyline is based on the biblical story of Abraham, Sarah and Hagar.
As for Cha Young and Vincenzo, there will definitely be a love line as it’s part of his redemption arc and the key to him letting go off his anger is allowing himself to give and receive love. It is clear CY and V have grown very close and Vincenzo has strong feelings for her. He does not want to be away from her (and vice versa) and literally hasn’t been for well over a week now – his excuse to stay up with her longer made that even more clear this week. The reason she did not admit her feelings there and then is because when she looked up at him she realized he is still very much protecting his heart (he was tempted to hug her back as was evident from his fingers grabbing the chair) – and she is scared too because she knows he plans to leave.
This is how I interpreted her ‘ahhhh’ moment. The disappointment on his face when she said she didn’t feel anything said it all. He wants to but he’s not quite there yet.
The cinematographer / director showed this by having the background in this hug scene be a fence (ie. he’s guarding his feelings), have CY’s door stood half open (ie. he has started to let her in) and also by having them sat next to CY’s staircase (a symbol of personal growth). If you look at their previous scenes, you’ll notice fences are heavily featured.
I think it’s only a question of when he will ‘break’ and let her in fully. I’m predicting a powerful and emotional scene.
@janey the cornsalad n the hug was the center of lol🤣
@rh your Theory might be true. The thing that i observed they both have same range of fury eyes when V pointed gun on CW’head. I wonder what makes JW became phycopath there must be a reason.
@RH – I love your theory!!! That is really very possible that the 3 are brothers. I also wonder why JW is that way, I hope there is some back story later. Being kept and hidden away in the US may have fueled his hate for his dad (to the point of killing his own father) due to his abandonment and non-recognition to the public as a son and heir.
Vincenzo encircled with a heart card symbol – yes! I missed that. I’m definitely hopeful for the love line and arc to happen. He did ask for extending their drinking session and controlling himself to return the hug. I like that CY brought up the subject and was not coy. She did get a bit jealous with the piano girl inviting them for a game of what else, Mafia! LOL!!!
Janey u maybe right. I doubt that they will reveal more back story. They may used this to sell dvd director’s cut later.
I saw a slightly changed in V’s eyes when JW said …smoke left. ..
V’s a bit shocked when JW full the gun on his head. He may not expected that reaction from him.
@rh, I wonder what will the star theme allude to as a whole?
And I also think that V may also be the heir to Babel but not necessarily the legitimate son. How that will be discovered will take another whole long story though.
I felt like JW do not seem as cunning and strategic as Vincenzo is. He rages, he has power but the tactics V uses is quite novel and unexpected, at least for me.
@Janey, I thought CY was kinda of drunk when she did that because she fell asleep on the table after that. But I’m sure Vincenzo was moved but he has been keeping his emotions caged in for so long, it is going to take longer for that ice to be broken. I love that subtle smile because he surely enjoyed her cozy hugging even though he does not hug back. *squeals*! His relationship with his mother will be the one that will change him. I loved his chat with his mum.
I felt like all the very “married” things V & CY has been doing (ie holding her handbag at the police station, cooking ramen scene, and more I can’t remember now) is a foreshadowing of their future. The welcome ceremony at the plaza is so much like a wedding march entry, Arch of Swords(?) with all the confetti and the ‘priest’ who came to hug them.
@grace – I think CY commented something about a wedding March as they walked through the arch of swords. Foreshadowing, I hope! I also see that CY is very comfortable touching V – putting her hand on his shoulder, linking arms with him, putting her head on his shoulder and 2x hugs. She jokingly said everybody wants to hug you today (her, An and Mr Tak)! 😂
There was so much hugging in this episode ! It made me smile ear to ear 🌽 like the corn salad!
Love your thoughts @rh. Such a pleasure to read.
Yes, I agree that there will be a love line. And yes, I expect a powerfully emotional scene when the fence finally breaks. More like a dam breaking against the oncoming flood.
I binge watched and caught up with Vincenzo. I’ve been taking notes and will do a longer post later, but had to share what made me laugh hardest in ep.11. During the Mafia game, the ex-ANT-thug accused Mr. Pawnshop, “You look like a North Korean soldier.” The actor who plays the pawnshop owner also played Pyo Chi So, one of Captain Ri’s Company of Five in Crash Landing on You. In polls taken during the airing of CLOY, that actor was noted as looking most convincing as North Korean.
Another cultural reference joke was made in ep. 8 with the sting setup to get Pres. Hwang Min Swing of Shinkwang Bank to change his decision about funding Babel. V adopted the persona of lawyer Tae Ho because Pres preferred men with single syllable given names. The male lead character Song Joong Ki just played in the Netflix movie Space Sweepers was named Tae Ho.
Also speaking of ep. 8 and cultural references, V riding up on a gray horse (white coat growing out of dark skin) at the same stables featured in The King: Eternal Monarch was no coincidence, I bet. This wasn’t our beloved all-white Lady Maximus, but the visual similarity was darn close, especially since Pres’s horse in contrast was black. And for kids like me who grew up in the 60s watching Westerns, the good guys wore white hats and rode white horses, like Roy Rogers and Trigger.
And who rode a horse better, Lee Min Ho or Song Joong Ki? Definitely SJK. Every time I saw LMH riding in TK:EM he bounced in the saddle like a sack of potatoes, and I kept screaming at him, “Keep your heels down!” SJK kept his seat far better and his heals were down; I checked carefully and saw that SJK even managed a couple of flying lead changes, cuing the horse during a cantor to change the leading foreleg in the air between strides. That ain’t novice riding, y’all.
@welmaris I’m so glad you decided to join in ! Welcome to the party! I look forward to your insights.
Hee hee. I remember how LMH irked you through out TKEM with his riding 😂 hashtag sack of potatoes !
Hi @Welmaris! Looking forward to your views! Yes there are a lot of references to popular dramas and used in a way is so comical. Did you spot the part when Mr.Nam watered the plants in the earlier episode, it was SJK’s previous drama character names.
SJK has always been very athletic and I think in his previous drama in Arthdal Chronicles he rode on the horse without the saddle and trained a lot for it. So I would think that he would be much more natural on the horse.
@rh !! I noticed another star theme ! In the last scene of ep 11 when Vin breaks into JW’s apartment and makes a grand entry in front of him, there is a painting of mountains against a starry night sky behind Vin !!
Sorry not star lit mountains but beach and colorful lanterns at night time ?? You get the picture.
Hello, All. Regarding 3 brothers, I think it’s possible looking at the men of that generation who have figured in the drama. It wouldn’t have been CY’s father, although he acted paternally towards Vincenzo, so probably the deceased head of Babel.
I think that IF V is the heir to Babel, he would be the first son. He seems older than the other two. But he may not be legitimate. The father may have left V’s mother because she wasn’t a suitable partner in terms of background. I had the impression that JW’s mother was married to his father. His father then left her for Han Seo’s mother, which might be why he hates his father, and Han Seo as well.
Also, if V is the heir, I don’t think he knows it. What do you think?
Along with another theory – that JW isn’t the top boss – I wondered if the Chinese tycoon who ‘died’ may have run Babel as part of an even bigger conglomerate. But I’m not convinced that JW isn’t top boss.
Last theory from me. The gold may or may not still be under the plaza. Why did the building owner get tenants for that room – why didn’t he leave it empty for easier access? Back to the first episode when we see Vincenzo watching the plaza being demolished by explosion. I was thinking it would be very satisfying if the remaining enemies were buried while attempting to get to the treasure.
I’m looking forward to 12 tonight.
I meant the men of that generation above. 🤦♀️
@Welmaris – in the same exchange in ep11 MAFIA game, the pawnshop owner started saying the ex-ANT guy was Park Seoyori wannabe – this is Park SeoJoon’s character in Itaewon Class and they have the same haircut! LOL! Great to see you on the V thread. 😊
Ep 12. Once it made up to kill pull the trigger then shoot immediatly_that it should. I got impatient lol🤣
I don’t know why but i suddenly like JW on this ep. He disguised, yes.However he shows nevertheless his true color.
I was slightly mesmerized the “shake hand on the hospital bed”..they seem mother n son.
@rh another star reference in Ep 12. When vin figures out where the hacked file could be, he is against the backdrop of those radium stars on his celing.
I have a question though. Where’s this place that vin is at when he attacks Han Seok with that bottled water ? He is in an expensive surrounding sipping wine. Where is this any idea?
@Arihsi, I imagined that he was in a posh wine bar.
When people say that Vincenzo is a Mansour, what is that? Is it a common expression in Korea or elsewhere? I looked it up briefly. Wikip says that it’s a male Arabic name that means ‘He who is victorious.’ Rather like Vincenzo, but that may be a coincidence. The owner of Man City is a sheikh named Mansour.
Oh, the ending of 12. I don’t believe for a moment that the tenants would leave in a bus. Surely they will interrupt the double-cross going on in the underground room? Or will it be the ghost?
Cement, cement, cement. 😉
@Arihsi, I thought it was at Joonwoo’s house. Also, how did he break in to Joonwoo’s house in ep11 like he did to Hanseo’s house (the bloody needles on pillow incident) with all the security (i assume). Seems like they always have a way. Also, I always wonder how Vincenzo manages to get into houses, offices as if they were his. Are they his?? And he lives in the humble plaza residence. 😛
@Fern, I am with you. Looking at how the endings are not what we think. There could be a possibility that
1. Miri the computer expert or hacker found something on Mr.Cho and told Vincenzo about it and Vincenzo was just acting when Mr.Cho pointed a gun at his head. BUT V’s expression did look shocked.
2. The tenants pretend to leave but come back to ‘save’ Vincenzo
3. A ghost appears to scare Mr.Cho?
I find all these twists and turns quite interesting. Ep.11’s twist that V lead Prosecutor Jung on was unexpected. To say V is creative is and understatement.
And that Parasite reference again…with the connection to Lomborgheni!! hahaha…that’s gold!
@rGrace, you may be correct that it’s JW’s house. I shall have to look. Unless Vincenzo has a better apartment somewhere. Isn’t it surprising that V puts up with the plaza flat when he seems to have cash to spare? I guess it requires a willing suspension of disbelief because it’s a drama.
I liked that he gave money to Gilbert/Gil beot who had told the tenants about the gold. If he was from Wusang, he probably would have killed him. Instead, it was a compassionate move.
So the gold is still there. I will agree with @Grace that Vincenzo genuinely looks surprised at Mr Cho’s actions. When the two men actually saw the gold, I saw expressions on their faces that I hadn’t seen before, especially Vincenzo. It brought to mind the Ring in The Hobbit and how something precious can affect even the strongest minds. When Vincenzo mentioned the gold to CY in an earlier episode, she scoffed and remarked about a Golden Calf in disbelief. In the Old Testament the golden calf was an idol made by the Israelites. Those who worshipped the golden calf were punished.
Another biblical reference was when Attorney Han tempts Han Seo to murder JW by saying, ‘I can help you become a happy Abel; you don’t need to be afraid of Cain.’ Of course, it all goes terribly wrong.
Assuming that the tenants want a share of the gold, I wonder how it will be divided and how the gold will affect all of the others. Who will be the judge or arbitrator of that division?
These last episodes were very well written, in my opinion. I don’t think there was anything that could have been taken out. I had to laugh at Vincenzo with his dark suit, shirt and tie going for the full Mafia look.
I think that the actress playing Myung-hee is excellent. The fish-eyes scene where she eats her fish’s eyes and later the eyes from the fish of the man she just had murdered – euwwwww.
JW calls her ‘my consigliere’ and offers her his left hand to shake. That is awkward, but she does it, adding her right hand to make it a two handed handshake on her part. It could be looked at several ways depending on the culture.
Thanks everyone for the insightful comments – I hadn’t picked up on some of the cultural references!
Another movie reference I have picked up on is that Seo Mi-Ri’s character represents Samora Morgan (a ghost) from horror movie The Ring.
From the episode 13 it looks like Vincenzo’s loses the gold? I wonder if it is Mi-ri who took it – given that she said there’s a ghost in the basement. I find it hard to believe Vincenzo did not see Mr Cho’s betrayal coming. On the other hand, the betrayal of his friend / employee nicely parallels JW’s betrayal of Cha Young.
I think episode 12 was overall pretty depressing in its portrayal of the human kind – it showed literally everyone’s corruptible as long as you dangle the right carrot in front of them. The only person who refused to be bribed in this episode ended up dead. Nice.
I noticed that sunflower motifs have started to appear in scenes where the tenants meet. Sunflowers are a symbol of loyalty.
I also liked the shot of the 5 doves on Vincenzo’s window sill. I think they represent Vincenzo’s ever-growing team / family, including CY, Mr Nam, CSI guy and martial arts guy.
I think there were also a number of biblical references again. I have mentioned before I think Vincenzo takes its inspiration from the biblical stories of Abraham, Sarah and Hagar. In this story, Abraham’s first born son is with Hagar, Sarah’s domestic servant. I think this is Vincenzo (although in this story I now no longer think this makes him a legitimate heir to Babel as such). Sarah and Abraham years later have a second son, and I think in Vincenzo this is JW. In turn, I think JW and his younger brother’s story is based on the story of Jacob and Esau (which explains the references to red meat and the hunting). Although I don’t think Myung Hee is Sarah, ie JW’s mother – I thought it was interesting she very much took on a maternal role in episode.
If my interpretation is right, this makes Vincenzo Isaac and Cha Young Rebekah. In Genesis, it is said Isaac always had his arms around Rebekah and when they first met she offered him (and all his camels) a drink. Vincenzo also always has his arms around Cha Young (noticeably so for a Korean drama) and in one of the first episodes she invites him for a drink (and obviously many drinking scenes follow). In the original biblical story, it says Isaac finds love and comfort in Rebekah after his mother dies (obviously you don’t need the biblical story to know this is going to happen in Vincenzo as well). Their bet about the dough of the two snacks is also a biblical reference to Rebekah and Isaac – as is the lantern that’s sat in their law office. Isaac in Italian is Isacco – it’s a lose acronym of the name Vincenzo Cassano.
@ahrisi Yes, we are definitely getting more and more stars / universe symbolism in both Vincenzo and JW scenes. Given that its symbolism is linked to Babel, maybe it foreshadows a potential battle of ownership?
How are we all feeling about Vincenzo’s new hairstyle? Personally, I had quite the thing for the Italian Vincenzo style – but evil intern definitely looks better without the sheepish curls 🙂
The first thing I noticed about the Vincenzo opening credits is the stylistic similarities to James Bond film opening credits. That is to get us thinking of the male lead in a certain mode. He’s slick, handsome, capable, able to get out of trouble, and has a license to kill.
Bond is motivated by his allegiance to Queen and country: a quintessential Brit. We see in episode 1 that Vincenzo’s character is more complex. He is deep inside the Mafia organization, but an outsider because of his ethnicity and foreign birth. His anchor is cut with the death of his boss, his papa. Vincenzo’s surname is Cassano by adoption, but he rejects serving his brother whose behavior is outside the Mafia code of conduct; he’s pushed out of the family and Italy when his brother tries to have him killed. Vincenzo does keep intact his principles, the code he learned to live by as taught him by his Mafia papa. Those principles define him when he can’t be easily defined by country or culture. When he’s in Italy, he’s seen by others as being Asian. When he’s in South Korea he’s perceived as Italian. Bond is an archetype; Vincenzo is an enigma.
Although Vincenzo was robbed of his immediate possessions as soon as he arrived in South Korea, we see him continue to wear an expensive, extensive wardrobe and seems to have a huge supply of liquid assets. He’s got the financial wherewithal to offer to buy a building for the plaza tenants, and has plenty of cash in hand when needed. I imagine that as an intelligent, powerful member of the Mafia, he learned to stash resources in safe places in case he needed to escape danger. I would not be surprised to learn that Vincenzo owned many pieces of real estate in a variety of locations. He’s only staying in the bare bones apartment in the ramshackle plaza because he wants to keep his eye on his goal: the gold.
I wonder if there’s a backstory we’ll learn about Vincenzo and pigeons. The ongoing tussle he has with the pigeon/s outside (and sometimes inside) his bedroom is funny, but one would think he’d be used to pigeons having lived most of his life in Italy, which has a large pigeon population. His main complaint about the pigeon is its noise–cooing and flapping–disturbing his sleep. We hear Vincenzo tell Hong Cha Young that sleeping well is rare for him, and several times we see him have nightmares about people he’s killed. I suppose earplugs while he sleeps isn’t an option, being that with all the enemies he’s made during his time in the Mafia, he must always be alert to becoming a target himself.
That said, I believe Vincenzo would be a fool if he didn’t anticipate Mr. Cho’s betrayal once the gold was accessed. Mr. Cho already demonstrated a lack of loyalty when he anonymously reported Nanyak Temple as fraudulent despite his boss instructing him to be patient and let him deal with the monks. Mr. Cho also admitted to getting into financial difficulty through poor judgement and excessive spending in anticipation of the gold windfall. Mr. Cho has shown his true colors, and it would be out if character for Vincenzo–reputedly one of the best consiglieres in the Mafia–to not see potential trouble looming. It was his job as an advisor to a crime boss to anticipate trouble and plan to eliminate it.
@Welmaris, I have wondered if the pigeons were trained by the person who used to live in Vincenzo’s flat. Especially Inzaghi, with his blue ribbon/message tied to his leg.
I agree that Vincenzo would be a fool if he didn’t guess that Mr Cho would double-cross him. I think that when Vincenzo had a conversation with him about the monks, V said, We are friends, right? But he certainly should have become wary when he later found out about Mr Cho’s enormous debts. It would be funny if Mr Cho had been given V ‘s fake gun. I wonder how it will resolve.
I really liked Vincenzo’s conversation with Cha Young when he tells her that he changed his mind about killing JW. He said that it wouldn’t solve the problems with Babel and that he would stay until that is done so she wouldn’t be fighting them alone. It was an open declaration of loyalty to her and care.
I enjoyed both Episode 11 and Episode 12.
I have to agree with @rh that Episode 12 did have some depressing moments, as it shows the breaking down of the cohesive Plaza group into self-seeking individuals under the influence of the hidden gold. But what’s new in human nature? And at least they do spare a thought about who the rightful owner of the gold is.
A couple of days ago I was in my local shopping place. Glancing over the local shoe repair kiosk, I saw a collection of Zippo cigarette lighters. There was one gold-coloured, but not engraved. However, I nearly bought it, although I don’t know anybody now who smokes, so it would be wasteful.
I am uncertain about Mr Cho. I can’t believe his list of big-spending items. I think he may have cooked it up just to have something to tell Vincenzo, and I can’t accept that what he’s doing is a simple betrayal of his friend. They go back a long, long way, and we don’t really know the full background to his and Vincenzo’s friendship.
I like Luca in Italy who, in my opinion, really does look like a Mafioso, but the name puts me in mind of that dreadful character Luca Brasi in ‘The Godfather’ who in the end gets garotted and sent to sleep with the fishes.
I particularly liked the moment in Episode 11 (c. 54 mins in) when Mr Tak gives Vincenzo the formal Mafia salute, acknowledging him as a ‘Boss’. It stood out, because to me it’s such a non-Korean gesture, but Vincenzo accepts it, with only slight reluctance. It makes me wonder if some sort of elevation is on the cards for Vincenzo.
Something similar, but far more sinister happens in Episode 12 (1 hr. 7 mins in) when Jang Han-Seok holds out his hand to Ms Choi. He’s asking her to swear fealty to him, which she does, with considerable reluctance; she knows what it could lead to. Nevertheless she is now liege-woman to Han-Seok, and also his consigliere.
Where are we off to next? The Guillotine file has to be accounted for. Well done, screenwriter Park Je-Bum.
@Juriel I had not thought about those salutes in that way – thanks for pointing that out!
I have noticed Mr Tak wears shirts with tigers on them. Vincenzo promises Cha Young to men who killed Mr Hong ‘in the tiger’s cage’ at some stage. Presuming the Netflix translation is correct, I predict Mr Tak will deal with those men at some stage. Mind you, Cha Young also has a tiger-patterned blanket in her apartment (the one Vincenzo wraps around her after the attack in episode 9), so maybe she’ll just end up dealing with those men herself instead. I have started to file away a number of red flags when it comes to Cha Young, I thought it was interesting she was not more perturbed by what she did to those men in the car.
Speaking of cats, it’s also not escaped my attention that Myung Hee has a cheetah patterned blanket in her office and Mr Nam’s favourite bike is named Cheetah. I suspect there’s more to Mr Nam’s story too.
As to where the show is going next. I have been really fixated on Vincenzo being a possible heir to Babel Group – but now I wonder if it’s actually Cha Young who is related to the Babel family. My running theory at the moment is that Cha Young is JW’s sister. I say this because when he revealed himself as the King of Babel / CEO he used a Star Wars themed powerpoint. In Star Wars, Luke Skywalker and Leia obviously turn out to be siblings after she infamously kisses him to make Han Solo jealous. I feel likewise Vincenzo (the show) has hinted at JW having romantic feelings for her – but now I wonder if its actually a brotherly affection.
This would mean Mr Hong is not Cha Young’s biological father. I think it’s possible this was foreshadowed in the first ep when he filed the court to renounce his paternal rights.
Is it possible that Mr Hong is actually Vincenzo’s biological father? Did he have an affair with Vincenzo’s mother perhaps? It would explain why he took her on as his only public defense case and why they are affectionate towards each other in the first episodes.
I guess we’ll soon find out 🙂
@ rh
My mind is swimming with the ideas you so easily add to our fascinating pool of conjecture. I take your point concerning the possibly sibling relationship between JW and Cha-Young. But I can’t help feeling that JW does have romantic feelings for Cha-Young. I wonder if she’ll ever realise the fact?
And as I read it, Cha-Young and Vincenzo are also behaving more like siblings than potential lovers. Vincenzo says to Cha-Young that she could be in the Mafia, suggesting that he would accept her. She’s more than a colleague/romantic interest for him, but a lover? I don’t know.
I too wondered about Vincenzo’s reference to the tiger’s den. And what about Vincenzo himself? He’s a killer, but not a murderer because he works within the oddly ethical boundaries he has set himself.
I love this series.
@Juriel
I totally agree Vincenzo is a killer and not a murderer – he feels genuine guilt over the killing he’s done as opposed to JW. Vincenzo’s nightmares attest to that. I have a feeling Cha Young’s character in the future may walk over to a much darker side than Vincenzo’s.
If Cha Young and Vincenzo are just friends, I have zero friends 😉 (I say this jokingly, because I respect your interpretation of course) However, I must admit I have not interpreted any of the late night drinking and unsubtle wistful staring at each other as platonic in the slightest. I am predicting something between them will happen very soon.
Let’s see what the next few episodes bring us! I can’t wait, I am loving this show so much.
Ohhhhh. I don’t want Vincenzo and Cha-Young to be siblings. 🥺 It’s possible but I think that if this were true, and given that Mr Hong knew that his life was in danger, I think Mr Hong would have said something to one or both Vincenzo and Cha Young to clarify his relationship to them. I do agree that Mr Hong and Vincenzo’s mother seem to have some history or connection beyond him being her lawyer.
Ohhh…me too. I don’t think they will be siblings? But in episode 2 when Vincenzo was looking at Chayoung’s photos the background music changed from upbeat to something more suspenseful, in particular the part when he saw the photo of her in the blond dyed hair colour. He took a second look and had a different expression, as if trying to remember something. I suspect there could be more to Chayoung’s history or they may have crossed paths at some point.
Also, do you think Vincenzo has a Korean name he does not speak of? I mean he was 8 when he was given up for adoption, surely or hopefully he remembers his Korean name.
I thought that his Korean name was mentioned at some point early on. By him or by Mr Hong?
I’ll have to try to find it.
Ep 13
The file as it mentioned even the late chairman has his old life record who knows they’re JW n V are blood related.
Are we being trolled? Do we think there will be an actual kiss in ep 14???? I love how the genuinely seem to enjoy each other.
There has been a lot of trolling in the previews at the ends of the episodes.
Haha. I laughed at the blood bath which V and CY watched with popcorn. She asked; he delivered. Oh, but they’re playing with fire, aren’t they?
The handcuffs on the Union traitor. They were little furry ones. 😂
So many funny moments in this one. V’s posse all want to go live in Italy and be mafiosi. I think V is the only one who isn’t keen.
Mr Ahn’s boss joining the group of ‘investor/protectors’ of Babel was creepy. I hope it’s a ploy. Watching the media coverage of the new Chairman, CY comments that JW is acting like an idol. Ha. A man said it looks like Myung hee is going to be his controller and is the real power. I don’t entirely disagree with that.
Who wants to bet that Vincenzo has both the eye scanning device and the Guillotine file? He is very quick.
I got it wrong about Myung-hee. 🤦♀️ It was about Prosecutor Jung trying to assert dominance and the commenter was the media boss who pledged to cover for Babel.
@birdie007 I’m sure we are being trolled…in some way or another.
Like how Mr.Cho betrayed V, it was not in the way we expected either. I thought Mr.Cho joined hands with Babel.
@Fern, I think they really have to demolish the building to get the gold though. Remember in the first episode we saw the building being demolished. I believe that is in the last episode. Gosh, all the back and forth. Their foreshadowing clues are everywhere.
Ep13 was really hilarious in the beginning…especially how V is totally at a loss at his loss. Who would expect comedy from SJK in this manner? 😛 Nonetheless, every episode has been a treat!
Happy Easter V watchers!!!
We have a treat on ep14. Spoiler alert….
For those rooting for a love line, we have a sumptuous kiss!!! I like female-initiated ones that catch the guy unawares and when he returns the kiss and get caught up, boom! Ah the flutters. Plus the music in the background “is this real?” is cherry on top. This may have started as a pretend kiss but ended up as an unforgettable one.
And the team is back with a purpose – love the teamwork to get the museum job done. The piano girl was a hacker and she is more connected with the gold safe security than I expected.
But nervous now that the mafia (real Italian ones) are in the picture. After these 2 “lighter” episodes, I’m afraid we will be back to dark ones next week.
@janey. SJK’s kissing scene have never change. Passionate 🤣 Hmm this may inappropriate to mention; the proposal “will u marry me” probably the same way when he proposed SHK? 😉😊😁😁
Well we definitely see dark next week. But what I’m more anticipate is from what Vincenzo had mentioned ..”if i exploit a betrayal within other families my own family might betray me in the end”
@SeanZhan – then it’s possible that Paolo’s mafiosi are not there to kill him? They are family. They would have easily found him in SK if they wanted to, even earlier. That will be a good twist. 😉
On similar lines, there are more than one mentions of payback. A payback from Cha Young and one from the pigeon 🐦. I’m looking forward to the latter.
Also, cha Young to the rescue (I hope) with Ep 15 !
I always expected the Italians to step in at some point.
The non-kiss kiss was okay. What I liked was how they weren’t awkward or shy with eachother post the kiss. It looks absurd when 30-35 year old kdrama leads behave like teens post any intimate scenes. I really like the mature handling of Vincenzo creative team. Such behaviour of Cha Young and V also reaffirms just how much they like each other.
Romance may take many forms but ccompanionship and
camaraderie is the most essential ingredient of them all.
@Janey, that would be a nice twist! What V said about family not betraying each other will be a nice foreshadowing. BUT Pablo tried to kill him, did he? Or was it their enemy cos V blew up Pablo’s fav car. I wonder what twist will we see next wekk.
Loved what you say about companionship and camaraderie being the most essential ingredient, @Arihsi. I usually do not like the love at first sight troupe because it is all based on superficial things like looks especially. BUT this couple is building a connection and understanding of each other.
I felt the non-kiss kiss was perfect for the situation and characters. V is not the one who will initiate it, because he has so much to cover and hide about his true self. I feel his lack of expressing love partly stems from his sense of abandonment. So his feelings for CY will be something that bubbles uncontrollably but he will suppress it like in the hug scene. He said it too that he does not deserve love because of his past, just like how his mum feels she deserve to die because of what she has done to V by putting her son up for adoption. They have the same mindset here.
CY being the lady she is isn’t going to want to spoil such a close the work r/s by expressing her feelings too blatantly. There needs to be some finesse in doing so isn’t it. She has tested waters in different ways, BUT this scene was all calling for it. She has no excuse not to do so. The lovely surprise was the kiss back. And the song “Is This Love’ by Aalia was perfect for it.
Aalia replied to commenter that the blue bird represents weakness, fear and trauma and that this song is about the real love you are afraid to approach but it is already there and feeling it.
I add the lyrics here:
Is this real
Is this real
What i’m feeling deep inside
How can i hide
When it’s everywhere
Every little breath
I take i feel
I didn’t cause
I didn’t call
Can’t deny
That it’s been out of my hand
A blue bird in my heart
why do you try to get it out
it’s sad
it’s sad to know you
(Humming)
don’t take out my blue bird
it only knows how to stay dark
don’t spoil
it shouldn’t hurt no more
have i ever
have i ever
touched your soul
like you have
mine
How can i hide
When it’s everywhere
Every little breath i take i feel
I didn’t cause
I didn’t call
Can’t deny
That it’s been out of my hand
it’s wild as the ocean
that i only knew how to watch
not to have one as my emotion
Great lyrics! Thank you, @grace.
Thanks @Grace for including the lyrics!
I love the music selection of this kdrama. This song’s rhythm is like something that a couple can slow dance to, with a dramatic dip. It was perfect for the kiss.
So that’s what blue bird means. There’s also a Blue Bird song in Start Up.
100% with you @Arishi on the main leads’ strong relationship as partners and friends are great foundations of romantic love.
@Arihsi, I agree about companionship and camaraderie, but I wouldn’t have called it a non-kiss. They both looked pretty stunned afterwards. –Managed to shake it off for the sake of the computer files, but back at the plaza in the car, I thought they seemed knowingly determined to deny it.
What a kiss, though! 😍
@Fern a non-kiss not because it wasn’t a good kiss. Rather because they didn’t do it as CY and V. There was a heavy element of keeping up the pretence.
The kiss was great nonetheless. Couple of things
1) V being the deer in headlights instead of the FL (a very tiring troupe of every kdrama. The FL staring like a ghost while being kissed. It feels like FL is being molested/kissed against her will every time.)
Here, V stares for a while and then it’s almost as if he can’t help but enjoy the gesture as they move forward. His eyes fall close without asking for his permission 😂
2) CY’s eyes snapping open in surprise as he reciprocates ! That’s so nice…she didn’t expect it. Then it’s her turn to enjoy it. 🙂
3) the hand movements. FL not standing like a lifeless statue while the ML does all the work. She’s as involved in the gesture and demonstration of affection and love.
It was nicely done @Fern. I really liked it. But then I’ve been loving CY and V’s relationship since the beginning.
I completely agree with your feelings about the trope, @Arihsi. It started as a pretend kiss and then transformed. I do hope it’s not the only one. I loved the looks on their faces afterwards – stunned and out of focus for a while.
I liked the scene when he buys her a dress and a necklace. Then says it’s not a gift. Nearly a cheesy line about getting it to its rightful owner.
I thought the gold prospector was brilliant. Shows up to say that looking for gold isn’t worthwhile but rescuing animals is. Gold is in your heart. Only the monks seemed to agree. 😆
All of the tenants combined have so much talent and knowledge. I liked the set-up for Miss Benning and Mr Anderson at the plaza. They were worried but ended up loving it. I wonder if CY will manage to get the ring back to them?
Cha Young overdoing her Konglish in the gallery 😆. Blah blah blah hotdog. Clearly the manager was better at speaking English. Then thinking the floor lamp was the art installation. I loved that the most expensive piece was called ‘Nothing’ and looked like a floor mat. Ragusang. What could it mean?
Blood sauce is all I can think of, from a romance language perspective.
I wondered, if the guillotine file is so useful in bringing down their enemies. It is THE most important evidence. Why WHY didn’t they just have MiRi open the safe???? Wouldn’t that solve all their problems and subsequently bring down Babel?
@Fern, yes, Gold the gold is in your heart that Chayoung said to the tailor. 😛 It came back to them again!
Btw in ep2 there is a quote on Nanyak temple that V reads out while he was pretending to be interested in it. The quote says
“Do not expect to get rich through illegal means.
Do not be greedy for wealth or land.
Do what’s right.”
A hint to the direction our characters would get to in the end? Do what’s right? We know V does not care for right or wrong as much as the principles he lives by. Not sure if that makes sense. His principles dictate the way he lives. What he does are a means to achieve his goal while living by his principles. I wonder if they are questioning whether what is right may not necessarily look lawful?
@grace, yes another perfect golden circle – or oval anyway. Another is V taking CY to get clothes this time.
I think that the inscription on the temple will be fulfilled in the end. Possibly with some shared wealth or not. It’s true that Vincenzo has lived his life according to his principles, but he has also changed since coming to Korea.
I thought that V said that Mi-ri couldn’t open the safe yet because there is so much gold that it will take a while to get it all out. But why didn’t she open it during the past 2 years? I would have thought that she could figure out some way to do it if she really has the iris scan. I hope Mi-ri is trustworthy.
I am not buying that some of this group will get gold and the others won’t. They have each brought something to the table. I liked how Mr Park is the expert in paper (not pepper) companies and delivers his talk to the others like a laid back professor.
@Janey said that Paolo could easily have found Vincenzo earlier and I agree with that. If that’s so, why is he interested now simply because they were called by Myung-hee? Did she have some other things to tell them? The meeting on the rooftop wasn’t just a social call. Ahh. I can’t wait until next week…
I was very pleasantly trolled! Although it didn’t start out as a real kiss, I love the way it went. I really hope there’s BTS footage so we can hear the direction they were given. Also, I really enjoyed the sweetie/darling car scene-Their facial expressions were so perfect.
I wish he didn’t have the whole song song thing in his past because I feel like these two would really hit it off in real life. Not that it’s impossible now, but a shadow for sure.
I definitely feel like she understood he was speaking to her in code so I feel like she’ll show up ASAP with the calvary in tow. I watched next weeks preview on TVN and I’m really worried for his mom.
@birdie007, I agree. Although I’m not sure Vincenzo was communicating to her consciously, I think she is clever enough not to be told a second time to go away for her sake. I think/hope that she will figure out a rescue plan quickly.
As to V’s mother – I was hoping that he would get more time with her, but @Arihsi wrote to me that she thinks it won’t happen. 😢 The letter in the bag with the scarf will be important.
Janey= i think differently. If JW n V are blood related then that’s what I’m pointing since V didn’t plan to kill V on the first place when he knew his real identity. For Paolo,i think he don’t spare V. He have grudge on him since his father favored V tho P is the legitimate son.
So eager to know the reason why JW became like that. I’m rooting he will repent somehow. What he did so far is unforgivable however,tho Jw is the real manipulator but he did not order to kill CY’s father. He more then became berserk when Cy allies with V which i seen it jealousy.
The G_file, there must more secrets to be reveal about JW’s father which may connect to V.
I liked that kiss scene, it was acted/not acted very well. 🥰
V sure has a lot of groups that he’s involved with. 😁
They’re skipping a week after episode 16 and episode 17 won’t air until the 24th in order to “improve the completeness of the drama”. What do we think this means? Changes to script? More time in production?
Wow, @birdie007, thanks for letting us know. That’s unfortunate, but maybe there was a continuity error, or an oversight? Let’s hope it’s a good thing. Still, a shame not to get my full fix next weekend.
@agdr03, I thought you would like the non-kiss kiss. 💋💋💋 I think I may have watched it more than once…
@agdr03 and @fern I did. Only because I wanted to appreciate their acting 😉 is there post here dissecting drama kisses? I feel like it would be a good one
Kdrama kiss acting dissection!!! Squee, I would read that especially with GIFs. 😉
I like this non-kiss/kiss and rewatched to see the reactions and how it changed. It mirrors the change in their relationship, too! And it’s initiated by CY so thumbs up 👍
I do remember a post comparing Brahms vs record of youth but honestly, those were both such a snooze fest for me.
I agree with you,@birdie007. After all of the hype and big name casts, neither was especially memorable by the end. I was surprised the actors agreed to those scripts.
Was this Kdrama originally planned to be the standard 16 episodes, then expanded to 20 because of its high ratings? That could be why there’s a gap, making us wait a week before ep. 17 airs.
@Welmaris, it was to be a 20 episode show. Everyone is speculating why though they said it is to improve on the quality of the drama. They manage to refilm River Where the Moon Rises without delay. Many said that they probably had some change in script? Honestly we won’t really know.
There is a special episode on the week that is missed though. Curious to know what it is!
ragusang as a blood sauce – love it! In Italian there is an on-going fued about calling tomato sace ‘ragu’ or ‘salsa,
I knew I liked the series – but reading these comments makes me appreciate it even more.
Jo3edc
@Josephine Tedesco, prego. I didn’t know there was a debate about salsa and ragu. Where does sugo fit in, then? In any case, I thought that ragu is meat (flesh) based, so all the better for a gory allegory. 😄😈
Hi all, I just wanted to throw in my thoughts on and interpretation of episode 14 and explore the writer / director’s take on the story of Adam and Eve and the Biblical story of the Fall of Man through Vincenzo and Cha Young’s fake dating plot and their fake / real kiss at the art gallery.
For those not familiar, the term Fall of Man is a term used in Christianity to describe the transition of the first man and woman from a state of innocent obedience to God to a state of guilty disobedience and sin.
In the Bible, this transition occurs when Adam and Eve eat the forbidden fruit from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil in the Garden of Eden. God had commanded then not to eat it, because he said they would die if they would. In Western culture, the forbidden fruit is often symbolized by a red apple.
I could not help but notice that when CY and Vincenzo visit the Korean club and talk to the gallery’s accountant, there is a shot of Vincenzo and Cha Young with a mannequin wearing a red wig (like the art director at the gallery) and two red apples behind them.
I also noticed that the singer with the red boa sings about lingering passion, giving into your heart’s desire and “tapping chopsticks together” (great euphemism ha ha). I interpreted CY and Vincenzo’s dance to this song to be a metaphor for how they are dancing around their feelings and desire for each other. In addition, I think the red lantern in between them on the table represents their love for each other which has been growing since day one. The lantern is also a reference to the story of Rebecca and Isaac. The writer is paralleling a number of biblical stories at the same time in this episode, but I will come back to that later.
Before CY and V set off to the art gallery as a fake couple, Vincenzo tells her his (fake) wife would never dress the way Cha Young’s dressed. This is a reference to Adam and Eve’s creation story. Eve was created from Adam’s rib – therefore, him taking her dress shopping equals him creating his partner / wife while simultaneously making the point that she is now a ‘part of him’. I thought this was clever.
If you look behind Cha Young in this scene, you’ll see cylinders. This is a reference to the Adam and Eve cylinder seal, also known as the Temptation Seal. It is a small stone dating from 2200 BCE which depicts two figures, a tree and a serpent – the cylinder was formerly believed to have a connection with Adam and Eve from the Book of Genesis. It is currently displayed in the British museum.
This brings me to the fake proposal and kiss scene at the gallery: there was a lot of symbolism in relation to Adam and Eve’s story here. The gallery represents the Garden of Eden and the art gallery director (with the red wig) represents the serpent who in Genesis tempts Eve to eat from the forbidden tree. The Forever, Always painting behind V and CY represents the Tree of Good and Evil I mentioned at the beginning.
If we interpret ‘eating the forbidden fruit’ to mean to give into desire, obviously Vincenzo so far has not allowed himself to do so for a number of reasons. Obviously, one reason being that he closed the door to opening himself up to love when his mother abandoned him. Another important reason is that he knows that his and CY’s life would be placed in inherent danger if she were ever to be associated with him. She’d become his biggest weakness in his enemies’ eyes and they’d (read: Han-Seok) want to exploit that.
God told Adam and Eve not to eat from it or they would surely die. I think it is fair to say Han-Seok (who considers himself a God) will want to kill Vincenzo once he finds out what occurred at the gallery (there is CCTV and also hundreds of pictures, so I don’t doubt he will).
In Genesis 3, a serpent (the devil) tempts Eve: “Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.”
Desiring this wisdom, Eve ends up eating the forbidden fruit and gives some to Adam who then also eats it. In Genesis it is then stated that their eyes are **opened** and they become aware of their “nakedness” and make fig-leaf clothes and hide themselves when God approaches.
There are some fundamental differences in how Vincenzo (the show) interprets the above.
First of all, the serpent tempts Vincenzo (Man) to kiss Cha Young (Woman), ie eat the forbidden fruit. NOT Cha Young (Woman), like in the original story. Isha means woman in Hebrew by the way, that explains perhaps why one of her names is Cha.
Secondly, and this is my personal interpretation of the scene, it is Vincenzo who initiates the ‘real’ kiss. Not Cha Young. Cha Young grabs Vincenzo after he declares he loves her (you can tell from her face she realizes he is being truthful in that moment). Therefore, Cha Young is not being tempted by the serpent. She is tempted by Vincenzo’s words and also part of her is rational enough in that moment to realize she needs to kiss him in order for their plan to work. Vincenzo then is tempted by Cha Young, not the serpent.
Thirdly, both Vincenzo and Cha Young have their eyes fully open BEFORE they eat the forbidden fruit not AFTER they eat it, ie kiss each other for real. I think this is perhaps the writer’s way of saying the characters have been in a state of disobedience all along.
Finally, following the ‘real’ kiss, neither Vincenzo or CY moves and / or show any embarrassment like in the original story. In fact, they share a very intimate moment following the kiss, both telling the other they will never forget. In the scenes that follow, both come even more clingy and flirty than before and CY uncovers her leg to grab her gun (and it’s obvious V enjoys the show).
In the shop when she tries on the dress, there is also a moment where Vincenzo wistfully stares at CY. CY in response covers her modesty for a second, but then instantly uncovers herself and appears to say never mind, here you go – admire and desire me all you want. I thought that was powerful from a feminist perspective.
Another interesting detail about the kiss scene is that after their lips meet, you see the words LIV spelled out above their heads. LIV means ‘rib’ / life and is a reference to Eve being created from Adam’s rib.
Later, in the art director’s office – CY and Vincenzo expose the art director / the serpent as a fraud (note how her head is lingering over a bunch of flowers, i.e. the Garden of Eden). Her dress sleeves are also reminiscent of a snake.
In the original story, after Adam and Eve are expelled from the Garden of Eden, God’s gatekeepers protect the Garden to make sure they can’t come back in. However, in this retelling V and CY’s helpers expel the serpent instead and gatekeep the gallery to ensure she can’t get back in and CY and V can carry out their plan.
A funny tidbit is also the fact that Vincenzo and Cha Young as a fake couple entered the art gallery / Garden of Eden under the pretense that they were interested in seeing an artwork called Nothing. Get it? They were tempted in the Garden of Eden (the gallery) by NOTHING. In other words, they were not tempted to eat the fruit as a result of external pressure / temptation – they only gave in to their heart’s desire.
So what does it all mean? A LOT I think – especially in terms of where the show is heading. But I need to flesh my thoughts out a bit more. I definitely feel the writer made a powerful feminist statement about female / male desire and dismissed the role of woman (Eve) in bringing down humanity into a state of disobedience / sin. I am not a biblical expert though so my analysis may be simplified – and I know not every interpretation of Genesis blames women for ‘the fall of man’.
In the original story, God’s response was to destroy the Garden and expel Adam and Eve. I found it really interesting to read on here that Ragusang refers to tomato / sauce / blood. I wonder if Han-Seok will destroy the gallery in fury.
As I was writing down my thoughts, I also realised a lot of Chacenzo scene show us Cha Young and Vincenzo sitting at cafes with fig leaves growing all over the place. In the original story, they grab fig leaves to cover themselves. Arguably, we have been watching the characters roaming around the Garden of Eden all along.
In every single scene where the characters are eating and tempting each other to enter into sin (greed, corruption, bribery, betrayal etc), we see copious amounts of exotic fruits on the table. In Episode 13, there is a scene that shows Vincenzo sitting under a blossom tree and against a picture of a beach that looks like Paradise. Behind the swimming pool is also a picture of a couple sitting on the beach, I think this is also a reference to Adam and Eve in Paradise and not a foreshadowing to a happy ending for them as I previously thought (although I am convinced neither V or CY will die at the end).
While (re)telling the story of Adam and Eve, the writer simultaneously continued telling the story of Isaac and Rebecca (I have mentioned that biblical parallel on here before).
There were a number of R and I references in this episode, including the camel painting (when R and I first met she offered drinks to all his camels), the lantern in the club, the discussion of dough (there are three miracles that disappeared after Isaac’s mother dies but reappeared when Rebecca came on the scene – they include dough and a lantern), the servant-feel of the fake proposal (in the original story a servant asked R if she wanted to marry Isaac to which she responded ‘I will’). I also noticed how V is on the wrong knee when he fake proposes, he bows his head like a servant. This is why CY levelled with V; Cha-Young and Vincenzo are equals who balance each other out. Lastly, the shot where V and CY are in the art director’s office and hold hands is an interpretation of Rembrandt van Rijn’s painting of Rebecca and Isaac called The Jewish Bride. Google it, you’ll see the similarity immediately.
Also, if interested, google the painting Isaac and Rebecca spied upon by Abimelech – you’ll see why they used the big arch in the last scene of episode 10.
If you have made it this far, thank you for reading!
In conclusion, the kiss was hot and I need more of where that came from :)))
In all seriousness though, I expect V and CY to give into their feelings for real (without an audience) very soon if not this weekend.
@rh, that was a wonderful analysis; you’ve done a lot of research. It makes me wonder at the screenwriter’s detailed meshing of a suspense drama and biblical lore. It certainly explains some things we’ve wondered about.
Do you think it’s Han Seo rather than Jun Woo who will unleash the destruction? I had been thinking JW because he has mentioned his God complex, although HS knows that JW is smitten by CY, so could use her as leverage.
Ladies and Gentlemen,
Should I ask @packmule3 for another (part 4) open thread for Vincenzo? I have a feeling we may need it.
Great insights @RH! Wonderful connection to biblical references. Will keep an eye on it as I watch/rewatch.
@Fern and @PM3 – yes, a new thread will be appreciated. Thanks!!!
And if a new thread is being set, can we request for the kiss/non-kiss GIF included?
I know, I’m shameless. Thanks in advance @PM3!!!
@Fern, yeap would be a good idea for this weekend’s episodes 🙂
@rh, you are blowing my mind away with the references. This writer’s works weave seem to weave in religious symbolism, at least from some of the titles. I see the interesting contrast and parallels that you have brought out.
Not sure about the art work though. Is the artwork of the Jewish Bride referring to the scene when Chayoung holds her open palm over Vincenzo’s chest to prevent him from stepping on Nothing? Other than the hand over his chest I couldn’t catch the other hand positions and couldn’t find the similarity.
Yes the kiss was hot, so skillfully scripted and executed, woven into the whole story line. This is one of the best kisses I have seen in terms of meaning and purpose for the storyline.
@grace Thank you! It’s when the art director comes back into the office and she leans her head on his shoulder and they hold hands. If you’re watching on Netflix it’s around the 9:23 countdown towards the end of the episode.
@Fern yes totally possible! He knows CY is JW’s weakness. I tend to forget his character because I’m so focused on the trinity of JW, V and CY.
Sure thing! I see there are lots of things to discuss in this drama. Great!
Give me an hour. I’ll be home soon. 👍
Thank you in advance, @packmule3. I have an evening’s research in front of me just appreciating @rh’s theories. 🤓
@rh, your theories on Old Testament references reminded me of a show I saw just the other night which linked the inspiration of the Sistine Chapel and the Branch Davidian sect in Waco, Texas. It was long, but interesting. ‘The Michelangelo Code’
This show has definitely surprised me. I was expecting a slower drama but it has kept a great pace and this past episode, 14, was my favorite yet—so many funny/cute moments woven in. I’ve never seen the actress playing CY in anything else but I really am enjoying her. I’ll say it for the 100000th time—her walk is amazing.
With a company named Babel, there’s definitely biblical references. If Vincenzo turns out to be the lost brother I can absolutely see how he would be Ishmael, sick mother is Hagar, etc…
The forbidden fruit reference was harder to grasp. Thanks for pointing it out.
Yes please – would love to discuss Vincenzo
Jo3edc
This is the first time I am watching JangYeoBeen, her new movie called Night in Paradise was out on Netflix yesterday, it was first shown at the Venice international Film Festival last year. I remember she was in Save Me where SeoYeJi (It’s ok to not be ok) was the main lead.
@birdie007 yes! If it is the lost son arc that would reaaaallllyyy interesting and quite the skill of the writer to weave so many biblical references in one show.
Considering that there are parallels between Adam and Eve and the series, could that also mean Han seok and Han seo are analogous to Cain and Abel?