As requested by Fern, here’s your new Open Thread.
First Open Thread is here: Vincenzo: Open Thread
Second Open Thread: Vincenzo: Open Thread, Part 2
Third Open Thread: Vincenzo: Open Thread, Part 3
This thread is being moderated by @grace, @Janey, and @Fern. You’re all doing a superb job analyzing and discussing the drama! Keep it up!
Gifs from deokmis’ tumblr:
More gifs from jahe’s tumblr
Enjoy the show!
Thank you so very much, @packmule3. Stonking gifs.
A kiss is just a kiss until it becomes something else.
Savoring the GIFs!!! Thanks @PM3!
Your wish is my command. 🙂
Thank you @packmule3!!! Wished you could have joined us in the Vincenzo journey!
FYI, unless you’re into violence and gore, I do not recommend Night in Paradise on Netflix. However, Jeon Yeobeen was great and almost unrecognizable.
ahh…thanks for the heads up @birdie007
btw @rh, do you have a twitter handle? Thought I saw someone talking about biblical references in a similar way to yours.
oh yes it’s you! @rh. Awesome with the pictures there.
Meanwhile I finished watching ep15 and i am seeing a pattern here of Vincenzo overcoming and then getting back at Babel and then Babel fighting back again. Nonetheless, I found the gradual shift in comfortable clothing for Vincenzo is a sign of his comfort level at being in Korea. He has a lot more smiles these days.
Also, who would expect that Inzaghi came to V’s rescue!! I knew it was going to help him but I forgot about it. Also, that look in V’s eyes seconds before his almost near death encounter convinced me that he did not have a way out at that point. It is only a miracle he survived. Now he is loyal to Inzaghi 😛
I also found the flower boy white outfit as a shaman really funny. SJK is known to be a flower boy and the director took the liberty to adorn him literally with flowers. I also wonder about their use of white here…shamans normally wear gaudy rainbow colours..white could be a reference to…angels?
I found Inzaghi saving Vincent in ep 15 to be hilarious. Deus ex piccione? Or maybe Chekhov’s pigeon? Anyway, I literally laughed out loud at what should have been a very tense moment, which I think was what they were going for.
@grace I also noticed in this episode the much more casually dressed Vincenzo, which I do think is reflective of his comfort in Korea and those around him, who he is forming real bonds with.
@wreckgirl and @grace – inzhagi to the rescue totally diffused a deadly situation. Initially, I thought the blue band on Inzhagi’s leg has a message like carrier pigeons but it’s purpose is to distinguish him the the rest of the birds. I think it’s also a visual cue of how the Geumga Plaza community will come into his rescue if needed. Funny how they all voted for him to be a shaman.
I was shocked with the prosecutor changing sides like that but I do see his connection to Mr Cho. Corruption after corruption and I have a sinking feeling when will this end? Hmm, probably a reason why they are taking a hiatus and tightening up the plot lines.
Reference to Lord of the Rings with the G file as one ring to rule them all. The ring was created for an evil person Sauron and can corrupt even the most valiant of men (Boromir) and has to be carried by simple folk like the hobbits (Mr. Nam in this case?). The G file was created for blackmail and not to expose wrongdoings. Just like the ring, ultimately it has to be destroyed as it perpetuates further corruption.
That moment when Inzaghi flew off was pure Disney to me. Was it @Arihsi last week who predicted Home Alone 2 as a solution? 😂
Now there’s a heavy reference from JW/Han Seok to the Lord of the Rings – equating the Guillotine File and the gold as the Ring. Here is the full quote: “One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them.” The Ring encouraged the wearer to dismiss reason for power and reject justice and ethics. Another example of power corrupting and absolute power corrupting absolutely. I believe @Welmaris, you are an knowledgeable about that story and could explain this better than I.
I wasn’t sure how Myung-hee and JW/Han Seok found out that the gold and the file are in the plaza. Was it Jung? I’m sad about him, tbh. I was hoping that he would be the safe person to whom to give the Guillotine file.
I’m starting to get worried about Mr Nam. He is obsessed with the file to the point of not sleeping or going to the bathroom. Vincent warns him about the build up of toxins. At this rate, he will be the first to know if he looks into the deceased Babel Chairman’s file and finds that the brothers are related to V. Of course, that may not be the case, but it’s one of our theories.
The only other time I heard of that Kopi Luwak coffee was when Stephen Fry gave it to Prince Charles and Camilla as a wedding present.
I knew that someone desperate would end up in a balloon. 😂
@Janey, thanks for the further information on the Ring. I think I started posting before your post came up, then stopped to look something up. I AM slow. I think that you are correct, that the file will have to be destroyed, because there seems to be no end.
I was also getting worried about the cafe owner listening in on the conversation. Doesn’t it seem that knowledge is dangerous? So many people have been killed simply because they knew something they shouldn’t.
“…and in the darkness bind them.” In Lord of the Rings and other works by J.R.R. Tolkien, men who grasped at the magical powers of rings lost their humanity and themselves. The nine Nazgûl were men–kings, sorcerers, and warriors–who became prisoner to their greed for wealth and power via the magical rings. They lost their autonomy, becoming slaves of Sauron. They did not die, but became phantoms within the mortal realm, their presence only recognized by the terror they spread.
What does this have to do with Vincenzo? I’d say this Kdrama, at least up to episode 15, has a very dark presentation of South Korean society and how power and wealth leads to corruption. No corporation or institution is to be trusted. It’s a very cynical view, and if there wasn’t as much humor in Vincenzo as there is, that spoonful of sugar, I imagine the South Korean audience would find the underlying message of this show a bitter pill to swallow.
In the world of Vincenzo, there aren’t Rings of Power, there’s intel: knowledge and evidence that, if effectively wielded, confers power. The Guillotine File is coveted by those who know of it because it contains damning information on people controlling South Korea and could topple them, or put them in thrall to whomever promised to protect them, their positions, their wealth.
Vincenzo says that only an evil person could effectively utilize the Guillotine File. And Vincenzo defines an evil person as one who feels no shame. A shameless person operates outside a moral code.
By this definition Vincenzo, himself, is not fully evil. He strictly holds onto principles: he doesn’t harm women and children, and he doesn’t become involved in betrayals within families. Yet Vincenzo calls himself an evil person, perhaps because of all the lives he’s taken. He has nightmares, and awakens distraught from his memories of bloodied bodies.
In contrast, when Jang Jun Woo kills people, he feels satisfaction rather than regret. He’s been a psychopathic murderer since he was in middle school. As Vincenzo says, he’s a monster. Crushing others makes him feel good. He relishes power and wealth because he likes getting his way.
Wusang Lawyer Choi Myung Hee seems cut of the same cloth as Babel’s Chairman Hang, leaving a string of bodies behind her. One of the things that motivates her is her dislike of being mocked, insulted, or humiliated. But all the killings we’ve seen her coolly engineer have been on behalf of another’s interests. She’s a ringwraith bound to Jun Woo’s Sauron. I can’t see what she gained from pledging herself to him; she’s lost herself, whatever integrity she once had, in his darkness.
As Jun Woo, Lawyer Choi, and their minions lose their humanity, it seems Vincenzo, Cha Young, and the denizens of Geumga Plaza are regaining theirs. I was touched by the conversation some of them had about their awakened sense of concern about injustices in society. When you compare the Cha Young we first met, bribing a witness to not testify, to the Cha Young of episode 15, enraged at the betrayal of Prosecutor Jung, her moral compass has spun 180°.
On another note: If you want to know why Song Joong Ki is so successful in intense roles like Vincenzo, carefully watch his face in the last minute of Episode 15. He uses measured changes in his expression to make clear to us the thoughts passing through his mind. Eyes wide and scanning his surroundings: he’s wary, assessing. Eyebrows tighten slightly: he’s feeling some confusion. He hears a thud behind him, his eyes shift briefly, and his mouth–which had been open because he was panting with exertion–begins to close. A split second later (made easier for us to read because of slow motion), before he turns his head toward the source of the sound, he has composed his face to a blank; the only hint at emotion is a blink of his eyes. He looks up to discern where the body fell from, then starts to approach the body. His mouth is slightly ajar, and he swivels his head a bit while looking at the body as he draws nearer: his senses are heightened. As he looks at the body lying in a pool of blood, his face is again a blank: his business face. His eyes, open and unblinking, read the scene. When the men rush up behind him a moment later, guns drawn, to arrest him, he blinks slightly, his lips tighten, and he swallows, but the rest of his body doesn’t show a response. He’s centering his strength. He slightly turns his head toward the voice behind him. His lips are closed, his eyes slightly shift back and forth, he gives a tiny nod–to himself, probably not noticeable to those behind him–his lips slightly part again: he’s having an internal conversation. Then he sighs, closes his eyes, the muscles in his cheeks harden, and he drops his chin to his chest: he realizes he’s been played. But an instant later he blinks hard, his lips firmly tighten, his nostrils flare–there’s no doubt he’s feeling fury. When he turns to face the arresting officers, his chin is still tucked and he peers at them from under his eyebrows like a schoolteacher would glare at a misbehaving student.
Bravo, SJK! Bravo!
Thank you, @Welmaris. Brava. 💐
I realise there is a strong presence of contrivance going on in the plot line in the later parts of this series. The first time it hit me was when Mr Nam, mourning the loss of access to the gold in Episode 13 calls out Gollum’s characteristic name for the Ring of Power: “My Precious”. At the time of that particular scene I wondered why on earth the screenwriter brought in, seemingly gratuitously, an allusion to one of the great epics of Western fantasy. Now, in the light of the illuminating comments of @Fern and @Janey, it has become clearer. The Guillotine File (an excellent name, because the guillotine was invented to cut off heads) can be interpreted as the container of a universally controlling power which has become separated from its creator/owner. So the Guillotine File has been brought into the action as a prime mover, but whether the present holder of the file/ring (Vincenzo) and his support (Cha-Young) equate with the hobbits Frodo and Sam is questionable. However, I approve of their intention, which is to deal with corruption as thoroughly as they can.
Here’s another contrivance, based I think on the fact that the film trilogy “The Lord of the Rings”, already highly popular in China particularly, is currently being re-released; I agree with @Fern about Mr Nam, who does seem to be going through a negative transformation process regarding the file, which seems to be taking over a major part of his life. This happens to Gollum in “The Lord of the Rings”, but I hope the physical change isn’t going to develop in Mr Nam’s case.
And don’t we get the theme of corruption hammered home in this series? The metaphor of the half-rotten apple is powerful to begin with, but the successive defections of people such as Mr Cho, Mr Tae of the Intelligence Agency and (shock horror!) Mr Jung, must lead us to doubt everyone we meet in the course of the action.
I think I’ve already mentioned Song Joon-Ki’s remarkable control of his small facial expressions. Did anyone else notice a micro-second of derision around his mouth as he was carrying the popcorn container along the corridor at the end of Episode 13 and heard Han-Seok declare that “no-one owns the future”?
I delight in how Inzaghi the pigeon has come into his own, and how Vincenzo now acknowledges him as a valued friend. Does anyone know the name of the lullaby (an Italian lullaby, I think) that has become Inzaghi’s theme?
And lastly, Vincenzo as Young Master Yeorim the flower boy shaman, with Mr Nam as the acolyte and Cha-Young as the recorder provide a truly high point of manipulative intelligence set against power-obsessed stupidity.
Oh, @Juriel, the ‘manipulative intelligence set against power-obsessed stupidity’ has worked so well so far. That is a great phrase and what great shaman scenes! Now the biggest problem will be power-obsessed intelligence, ie, Myung-hee, JW/Han-seok and the prosecutors. They have already noticed that V is playing them against each other. How many more times can V do that?
@Ellen, although V says he doesn’t interfere in family matters, he did cause the crooked hospital director’s wife to testify against him. Maybe because he already perceived that they were splitting. Mrs Kwak, the cafe owner understood that the spouse is the close person who can deliver the most damage. I hope this doesn’t mean that there will be a real or perceived break in trust between CY and V at some point. That would be horrible.
I also worried when Mr Lee and his wife were talking about a pregnancy. It seems they held off for a long time and were going for it now. But it will make them vulnerable, too.
Gosh, another thing: if I had the guillotine file, the first thing I would do would be make a copy. I wonder if V or Mr Nam has done this. Perhaps it has a code to prevent a copy from being made? I may have missed something about that in previous episodes. Also, who is keeping the file safe when they aren’t in the office?
Thank you @Welmaris, for how the characters gained their humanity..and how the rest have lost…or more like did not gain back their humanity but continued on their road to power and evil. You remind me to think about what could be the triggers for Vincenzo, Chayoung and the Geumga Plaza residents’ turning points. Would these triggers work for Babel and Wusang people? I felt that the human touch of love and companionship melted the cold hearts of V, CY and Geumga Plaza residents. It is like they got mixed up nicely in a web and found family in each other.
And so on point about SJK’s acting, you described it so well @Welmaris. I totally saw that change in his expressions, subtle as it is, that created an emotion in me of what he was feeling at that time. Similar to the ending of ep14 when he was about to be killed by the mafia, I didn’t think he had a backup plan like some people speculated. His fear and anger in his eyes at the point said it all.
@Fern, remember at the ending there was the guy in black coming out from the Jipuragi office? Could he have stolen something from there?
The other part of the shaman scene that was funny was the music! It was the Adrenaline in traditional music. 😛
One more thing, someone mentioned about the colours of their clothes. While Vincenzo has started to dress down, CY doesn’t do so that much, do you think? The other thing is that HanSeok has been wearing the casual hoodies and that have really bright colours, red, blue, green. It is a contrast to Vincenzo’s muted colours. Probably also contrasting their characters as well.
Yes, @Grace, good point about the clothing. I thought that CY seems stuck in her blazers or suits unless she’s lounging at home. Even the dress she wore to the gallery was suit-like. V is wearing bland colours, after his brief stint into all dark mafia look: shirt, tie, suit. I thought that the red hoody Han Seok wore in Ep 15 may have referred back to the white one stained red by the ‘pig’s blood’ last week.
@grace, yes, I was unsure whether the man in the mask at the end of the episode was there to find the G file, to lure Vincenzo up onto the roof or both. I imagine that he was working for Jung – I didn’t recognise his eyes.
I’m looking forward to tonight’s episode.
I’m waiting for the 16th episode, and decided goes here.. what a detailed description for SJK facial expressions @Welmaris!! Thank you.. I already saw this too in Arthdal Chronicles. But I think SJK done it better in Vincenzo..
I laughed too when Inzaghi brings his friends to help V. I didn’t see it coming really.. I wondered what would save him from the killers. And the birds is beyond my imagination..
Now that JHSeok knows the truth about V’s mother, I’m getting worried, what would a psychopath do towards the mother..
Another thing that makes me curious is the letter from V’s mother to HCY. What could make her crying like that.. I wonder whether the mother already know about his son afterall, or is it something else.
Let’s enjoy this 16th episode since next week they’ll be on hiatus..
Ep16… that was one hell of an episode! I don’t know how they can top that. I hope the 1 week hiatus would give them enough time to make the last 4 episodes phenomenal. I gotta say, Joongki acted so well. I agree with @Welmaris’ observation about the facial expression and the eyes. Very powerful and effective. Things are going to be exciting now that they unleashed Vincenzo’s dark side.
@Fern you mentioned the Disney effect of Inzaghi when he flew away. The music, did you listen to the music? It was sooooo Disney too, the magical feel to it. THAT was a music uniquely on its own because it was magical, it was a miracle…it did seem almost like mocking the cheesy unbelievable situation. Even Vincenzo couldn’t believe it.
I need to digest ep16….we have 2 weeks. One thing I love love how they always end with Vincenzo and his stare. This week, it reminded me of V in episode 1. The cold mafia….but a lot more vengence and anger and rage that is all contained and raging inside. It is not the wild screaming angry person to fear but the silent scary one because you know not what they are thinking or plotting. Just have to say again that SJK’s acting here is top notch.
It’s a good thing the series is taking a break because I need a breather to recover from ep16. If the story line is just corruption, I would not have latched on to this show but it turned out to be more than that. And script and the acting are excellent and the music too. I cried at the mother and son scene and like V felt numbed seeing her dead.
As noted by many in previous posts, SJK’s acting is very on point. To be honest, I have not appreciated his acting until Vincenzo. Bravo indeed!!!
I think I may have an unpopular opinion here. I don’t like how murder is a casual occurance in this series. Killing another human, notwithstanding the reason, whether in the name of justice or not, is plain wrong. Murder is murder is murder. And who decides what’s “right” anyway? Truth is relative afterall. Tomorrow I may feel the neighbour who did me wrong and employed my house keeper (thereby discontinuing her services with me) without my knowledge “must pay”. What a load of nonsense this series is promoting!
In my eyes Cha Young was lawless before and is lawless now. She’s upset with the prosecutor because he didn’t take “her side”. Her methods are still totally lawless amounting to illegal. Vincenzo didn’t mind killing before, and he doesn’t mind killing now.
Who decides what is justice, if we leave aside the need for a judicial system? It’s becoming barbaric. You kill my ally, I’ll kill yours.
Do we as an audience feel that Vincenzo killing anyone is alright because someone murdered a member on his side and danced ? Well then, he has killed aplenty on their side so they’re allowed I suppose, by Vincenzo’s own rules? Or that’s wrong simply because we had sweet moments between a mother and a child before the massacre? Didn’t Vincenzo kill people before? Isn’t he killing and torturing people now ?
I’m super upset with how they’re promoting a lawless and anarchic idea of “justice”.
An eye for an eye, makes the whole world blind.
Do we learn nothing from world wars? From years of pointless conflict? From Syria? From Yemen ? From the bottomless abyss of African subjugation and the utter devastation that has brought forth ?
A strong judiciary, faith in justice and punishment through law and a society that has clear idea of morals with respect to human life is essential for survival of that same society.
In my eyes, Han Seok, Vincenzo or Myung Hee are no different. They are all killers. Period.
Being a Potterhead, I can’t help but bring it up here. I had discussed it in one of the earlier threads where I felt CY didn’t want Vin to kill anymore because Killing, no matter how evil you are, will tear your soul apart. CY didn’t want Vin to kill anymore (How wrong I was! She just sent him on a Killing spree)
Anyway, in the Harry Potter world, there is only one excruciatingly painful way of “mending” a soul torn apart by killings, murders or torture of another human. And that is remorse.
A true and heartfelt remorse of the wrongs one has done and the lives one has taken. I see none on Vincenzo apart from a lone nightmare here and there. Are we going to see ANY personal growth in action AT ALL ? Or is the series going to end with killing happily ever after?
@Arihsi, I think it’s part of the escalating evil that is swirling around Babel and it’s a response to a lack of law and order and justice due to corruption. Of course, it doesn’t make it right and I hope, as you do, that there is an end. Otherwise, the darkness will be unbearable. @Welmaris and @Juriel mentioned the overwhelming corruption and @Welmaris wondered how the Korean audience would react. I wonder if the last episodes will cope with this. I’m no longer sure that V will survive.
When Mr Tak said to V that Vincenzo would help society most not by reinventing himself and changing, but by doing what he does best. I had an idea that this is how the show will progress. At the end of episode of 16 we see Vincenzo acting in an almost mechanical way to make his way towards the murderers of his mother. I suppose, if this were a historical drama, he would be slashing his way through the opposing army. In a way, this has become a civil war and he is leading the coup.
TBH, I couldn’t watch his use of the lighter and yes, like Janey, I will need a break.
I almost couldn’t watch SJK when be beat up the killer. Did you all see his eyes. I mean.. it’s like he’s possessed by the demon.
I was so afraid of him, he’s so convincing..
I think like everyone say in your comments, SJK is taking his acting to the next level here.
As for @Arihsi said about the story itself, the thoughs come to my mind before.. why the story seems getting darker and darker.. it was like we are brought back to the era where the law has not been found yet. However, If I can be a little spiritual now, I don’t believe that justice system made by human would ever be fair. Only God’s justice system will be fair without a doubt.
It’s like the writer want to give us the simulation, if only, those who are in a battle never stop taking blood, what would it be like.. it’s a revenge after revenge after revenge. A vicious cycle. So barbaric is inevitable. It still like that too in actual world I believe, the difference is usually the other party is weaker than the other so they couldn’t take revenge.. and eventually this other party usually stopped trying or be dead already for fighting what they believe at.
I have to take some time to digest this episode too.. because I remember when the casts said in one of the interviews that this drama is different. It will give a satifying feeling to the audiences. I’m questioning this myself.. Is it the feeling I had whenever Vincenzo team could beat up the JHSeok team.. even it’s just in drama.. but is it scary when we are satisfied by how the protagonist team deal with the antagonist like that.. or maybe it is how it is, if we’re letting go our conscience, humans could be scarier than the demons themselves.
As for Vincenzo story, I do wonder, what could be the end game for him. Will V kill Myung hee and JHSeok that moment or will he spare them. And after the mother dead already, who will be the next target.. will it be HCY, or the tenants in geumga plaza.
One reason why I was sad that Jung went over to the Babel side is that this show seems to need at least one person in an influential position who is pure and I’m not seeing that. They have all been killed or have turned evil. –Unless it is the Geumga Plaza collective and Inzaghi who will put a stop to it. V has been coming more and more under their influence. I liked the group meetings in this episode and how carefully Vincenzo holds Mr Park’s (ANT boss) coat for him in the scene with the intruder and how they eat and drink together at Arno’s restaurant.
@Moonstar512 I am speculating that the letter from V’s mum to CY shed light that she knows V is her son. And that she does not want CY to tell V that she knows so that V has time to sort out his emotions. I liked that both Lawyer Hong and V’s mum has been gentle in giving V time to come to terms with acknowledging his mother. This is such a sensitive issue and they have been very respectful of V by not pushing him into forgiving or acknowledging. The missed opportunity for V brings the idea of regret he talked about earlier, that it is the most painful. It is.
Their mother-son conversation at the river was by far the most raw and heartwarming one. One of the few where we see V breakdown and release his very locked up emotions, it was a tear-jerking one.
I get why we needed time to digest all that has happened in ep16, especially at the ending. After all that change, and trying not to kill. We are seeing evil take down evil in evil ways(?). The killing while not as gory as Zombie shows and other really violent ones, the eyes, those scary eyes of Vincenzo was scary…like @Moonstar512, I felt afraid, I would if I saw anyone like that. From the time he appeared at the door of his mother’s murderer. You could tell he is acting on his anger to torture the guy.
As you said @Arihsi, just because someone did something to you doesn’t not make it right to do something back. But HOW can this evil be overcome? Locking them up in prison does not work because law and justice is corrupted.
I think this is where we will see the rest of the episodes turn to from a rooftop conversation with CY –
V: Things are going to turn biblical soon.
CY: The tower of Babel will eventually collapse.
V: I’ll make sure everyone who tried to build it will be punished.
CY: But we are not God
V: God will punish them. We’ll just deliver them to him. Villians know best how to deliver the likes of them to God.
CY: Tell me the details
V: Catch a big fish with a small fish.
I think it was what Lawyer Hong says that he is not able to fight Babel because their evilness is beyond him but that someone at Babel’s level will need to come fight them. I do not think there will be any redemption for Babel esp HanSeok and Myung Hee.
I’m fine with a show on gang war where two gangs kill members on either side. The last man standing wins. No issues. But please. Don’t give it the name of justice or law. CY and V’s war against Babel began with a personal agenda and it’s still very personal. Ms. Oh’s case, of course, very personal. What they discovered along the way in wrongdoings of Babel is by the by because Babel is like some conglomerate of evil.
Otherwise Jipuragi firm hasn’t taken a single other case for the public good.
@grace I am speculating that too. It means that HCY just knew the truth from V’s mother letter. Every mother, I believe, could recognize her own son.. True, the mother-son moment in the middle of their walk is both beautiful and sad. I am glad that at the end of their short trip, the mother hugged V. It was like a goodbye hug.
Oh, and SJK is getting a nomination for best actor in the prestigious Baeksang award for this role. Do you think he will win this category?
@Moonstar512 he has acted really well here. I enjoy watching him on screen 😺
@Grace I agree with your point as to how to get justice in a fundamentally corrupt system? It’s so frustrating and seems out of reach of common man. But I can’t say this is the correct way either. Just pick up a gun and kill off whomsoever you think “needs to pay”.
I’m wondering if the show had any concerns from actual government institutions or business establishments that have caused the script to be modified? They are all portrayed in such a negative way. How will there be a return to a realistic and ‘normal’ modern society with institutional checks and balances in place to keep anarchy or vigilante justice at bay? All of the ‘uncorruptible’ people have either been killed or, like Jung, have become evil. I preferred it when Vincenzo was manipulating the evil people to turn more naturally against each other rather than being a participant.
South Korea is very conscious of its image overseas. Since this show is on Netflix, I would imagine that there must be a ‘re-righting’ of the balance by the end? Perhaps not, though, thinking of the way Cha Young almost proudly compared Italian organised crime with Korea’s in the early episodes.
@Fern I don’t think that’s a huge problem… Beyond Evil a recently aired drama is along the same lines. Its a trend this year. Mouse, Vincenzo, Beyond Evil… We may expect more dramas along the same lines…
I didn’t receive a single notification about the posts in this thread so I am glad I just checked the website – I thought everyone was being really quiet 🙂
@grace yes my Twitter handle is @bassempire and I have posted threads about the use of (biblical) symbolism and colour on there, and also my Garden of Eden analysis.
I understand people’s concerns about this lawless society Vincenzo now promotes.
I think what the writer is doing though is telling the Book of Genesis backwards – and we will get to a more balanced society towards the end.
In Vincenzo, we don’t start in the Garden of Eden where Adam and Eve live a life in obedience to God / good. We start in a wasteland where people are at odds with each other and obedient to evil (Babel) and susceptible to greed and corruption.
Cha Young and Vincenzo in this scenario represent Adam and Eve – both characters start off not questioning the world around them. CY in her capacity as a Wusang lawyer representing and defending corporate evil and V as a Mafia lawyer living by his set of Mafia rules.
In the original story, the snake tempts Eve to eat from the tree of good and evil which God had forbidden Adam and Eve to eat from “or they would surely die”. The snake told them Adam and Eve wouldn’t die.
In Vincenzo, it is Mr Hong’s death that triggers her to rise up (ie sin against the devil so to speak) against Babel and acknowledge evil. She tempts Vincenzo to fight the fight with her telling him in return she’ll help him secure the Plaza. He is also motivated by his anger about the death of Mr Hong (I wouldn’t call it love, but he felt a warmness towards Mr Hong for sure). He keeps fighting the fight though following the death of the researchers and also becomes motivated because of his mother’s revealed past and circumstances. Most importantly, he keeps fighting the fight out of love for Cha-Young. The gold has become secondary in his mind.
What follows from this is that “the snake” in the writer’s version represents love, not sin – all the characters have dodgy pasts, but all become tempted to fight evil out of love for someone.
If you remember my analysis on Cha Young and Vincenzo’s kiss, I argued they only kissed because they love each other, not because the snake / art director tempted them to kiss. I later realised the snake / art director in Episode 14 is not evil like in the original story, here she represents love. In the original story, God destroys the garden and the snake – but in Episode 14 the snake / art director flees the country and Han-Seok ends up destroying Nothing (the piece of art). The show was making the point here that you cannot destroy love. (This is also why I am 100% certain neither Vincenzo and Cha Young will die)
I noticed that the truck’s number plate who crashes into the cafe and kills Mr Hong starts with 34. And Vincenzo’s mother’s hospital room is 304.
This is a reference to Genesis 3.4 “And the serpent said unto the woman [Eve], Ye shall not surely die” [when you eat from the tree] the show subverts this by having both Mr Hong and Vincenzo’s mother die – both died fighting the fight because they loved their children and Mr Hong said he was willing to die for the cause. We don’t know yet why Mr Hong fought Babel – but my guess is he did it out of love for his wife and Cha Young (and this is explained in the letter). Similarly, Vincenzo’s mother at first did not want to file for a retrial but changed her mind because of Vincenzo even though she was dying.
I think the writer is working towards restoring the Garden of Eden – a reimagined version of it though, so not one where everyone is obedient to God and knows no evil or sin.
I reckon we will see a Geumgang Plaza where people live in harmony and contribute to society by doing what they do best despite knowing evil – be it legal or illegal – to make the world a better place. I think everyone will end up sharing the gold, but let’s see what happens, I have spouted theories on here before which turned out to be completely wrong. CY and V will defeat evil (MH at the very least, because she represents the worst type of evil but I think Han-Seok as well).
I have also noticed that since CY and V kissed more flowers are starting to appear in scenes – previously, flowers were only seen in pictures on the walls (as remnants of the past). I expect to see more flowers in scenes the next few episodes, especially in Cha Young and Vincenzo scenes (obviously they are obviously appearing because their love is growing).
At the same time, the show is also retelling the Story of Babel Tower backwards. The original story ends with a destroyed tower, the death of the builder (Nimrod) and people scattered all over the world speaking different languages.
In Vincenzo, the story starts off with people at odds with each other, speaking different languages and being scattered all over the world (V in Italy) and the death of Nimrod (Mr Hong represents Nimrod, the Hunter and the King of Fish – this is why Cha Young has pictures of herself in a yoga hunter pose in her office and apartment and fish in her house). If you remember the Sicilian Wine Party Vincenzo threw in episode 3 to prevent the building from being destroyed, it had flags from all over the world and foreigners attending. Plus V spoke 4 different languages in that scene, including French, Korean, Italian and English. Cha Young in a number of scenes also does not understand him when he speaks Italian and he is refusing to translate.
In recent episodes, the tenants have started working together and Cha-Young has started speaking Italian and he translates for her when she doesn’t understand what he is saying.
I imagine then that the show will end with a newly rebuilt plaza of some sort where all the tenants live together in harmony (maybe a new fancy law firm for V and CY). Let’s see 🙂
In terms of where we are in the Genesis story – the ascending of Inzaghi towards heaven (but here it was a night sky with a half moon) represented the Pentecost. Han-Seok trying to blow up the Plaza was a subversion of the story of the flood, God’s attempt to destroy mankind following Adam and Eve’s expulsion. Here Han-Seok attempted to destroy all the plaza people. When Vincenzo threw out the watch, it counted down from 15 to 12. This is a reference to Revelation 12-15, the story about the end of time in the bible (hence the burning watch symbolism) but here the story (the biblical war Vincenzo refers to on the roof) will be told backwards hence the countdown.
V and CY also represent a version of Jesus in my view (with 12 followers who follow them blindly and in good faith) – the redeemers in a sense, a man AND a woman, forming a yin yang type of equilibrium / love against hate. In Episode 4, when he miraculously got up from his bed and walked off, that was supposed to be representative of a resurrection I think. If my interpretation is right, then this is also why we have not found out about who Vincenzo’s father is (I am not sure we will now). In addition, CY’s father renounced his parental rights at the start of the show – making her of virgin birth practically. There are so many references and similarities I have noticed, I could honestly write a dissertation on it.
If anyone’s interested, pay close attention to the numbers you see in scenes. Number plates, numbers on walls, bottles, gym weights etc etc – they all refer to the relevant bible passages the writer is using to tell the story. Vincenzo’s car’s number plate for example starts with 351. This a reference to Genesis 35:1 in which Jacob returns to Bethel after fleeing his brother Esau, i.e. Vincenzo leaving Italy and returning to South Korea to escape his brother Paolo’s wrath.
@rh thanks for this!
I really hope there isn’t a Judas amongst the 12 tenants
@birdie007 I thought this at first too, but this show subverts every single trope – so instead of there being one traitor, the show is giving us 12 characters who turn out to be not who we thought they were at first. I was chatting with a friend yesterday and she mentioned Mr Nam may end up becoming a corporate whistleblower. I couldn’t help but think about Edward Snowden and how his last name means hill / mountain. I don’t speak Korean but learned from Start Up that Nam means mountain 🙂
I’ve been busy with other things and only finished Episode 16 yesterday. I see that SJK has been nominated for Best Actor in the upcoming Baeksang Arts Awards and, in my opinion, this episode alone qualifies him for the honour. Harrowing isn’t in it. To project such calm, pent-up fury through such an expressionless face is a masterpiece of this actor’s skill.
But it was his interaction with his mother and the grief and sorrow he expressed through his body while standing unseen behind her wheelchair which impressed me the most. I think the director’s use of distance shots at the end of the scene was quite brilliant.
Equally brilliant was the visit which Han-Seok paid to Vincenzo’s mother at the hospital. I suppose he might have done it to make sure he was about to kill the right person, but I rather think he went there to gloat.
I realise that Vincenzo’s use of the Zippo lighter with its characteristic sound lets us know when he is in his Mafioso persona and fully in control of a particular situation. Earlier, when Paulo’s assassins are about to kill him, he has the lighter in his hand, but he is unable to control it as he normally does. Using the lighter to pull out fingernails is pretty horrible, but Vincenzo’s mind will see it only as a necessary expediency.
After Episode 16 I am definitely ready for a rest, but I also want to see who he decides to shoot first – Myung-Hee or Han-Seok. That is not a collector’s item gun; it’s a genuine working heavyweight.
@rh when you spell it out like that it makes so much sense. I got goosebumps reading it. One for the writer to even imagine a story like that, and two, for you to be able to interpret his secret message behind it. I’m still getting goosebumps on my back as I type this. My mind is blown! THAT is very sharp analysis you’ve got there.
It is like restoration. No wonder Vincenzo has an anger in him that rises out of the injustice, to which the monk tells him that he has to fight that.
I wonder while this is pointing to a ‘new world’ at the end, the garden of eden. Would there be a sacrifice? Or will we not cross the new testament world? Could the twelve represent the 12 tribes of Israel instead of the 12 disciples if this does not cover the new testament world. Two of them belong to the priesthood (the monks??)
I know that this writer’s works seem to have Christian ideology in it and if he is doing it through Vincenzo, I am really quite impressed he visualises it in this manner. (Have not watched his other works but it is on my list and I’m curious)
@RH – that was a very impressive in-depth analysis! I like the biblical connections and it makes sense. I heard the writer also did Fiery Priest, obviously has religious theme just from the title, but one will not notice it openly for a kdrama entitled Vincenzo.
Like other posters here, I’ve always been uneasy about evil fighting evil – there’s the fine line of becoming the very monster you are fighting against. So when CY threw her “no more killing” dictum when they gassed and drowned the perpetrators of the fake group suicide, I was really disheartened. And with the killing spree of V out for revenge, I was really shocked on the turn of events. I prefer “when they go low, you go high” which is hard to do in this intensely corrupt scenario. Admittedly, even the good book stories in OT were bloody, there were wars fought to restore what is good and godly. I’m also reminded that in every successful peaceful action (like Ghandi’s or EDSA people power), a lot of people gave their lives on the path to that peaceful victory.
Dear @packmule3, please may we have another thread for Vincenzo, now that the show is back? Ep. 17 out of 20 aired today.
With all best wishes for a fine weekend.
@Janey, I agree with your sentiments about evil fighting evil. To me it felt that V was on that tightrope of a fine line when he pressed the button in Episode 17. The two men, although very bad, had been doing his dirty work for weeks, and doing it well. And the first one was the luckier of the two, having an instantaneous death. All I can think is that he judged them too dangerous to live.
I appreciate that he chose not to have CY do it, but it affected her even though she was technically and legally involved.
Hi everyone.. how are you after a week of hiatus. It’s been a rollercoaster for me watching Vincenzo. It’s kinda sad that we’re almost at the end of it..
And I just read @rh deep analysis on Vincenzo. Just WOWW!! 👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻👏🏻
Here are my notes from eps 17-18
everyone, like almost everyone around Vincenzo loves him so much. I find it funny and also touched at the same time. Like when JHSeo play hockey and fall at V’s arms. And how he told V when having a meal together, that he’s like a Hyung to him that’s why he helped V. Or when Mr Park from hot air baloon travel wanted V to call him as Hyung. And he finally did it when saying goodbye to him. Or when the Mr Nam the Paralegal crying out loud didn’t want V to leave.. after all, it’s about how V has touched everybody’s heart with his own way.
I’m also curious how will the writer give ending for MyungHee. I mean her acting is really good: I hate her so much here..
I really hope that in the next episodes they will give us some light. I mean yeah we’ve been brought to the story where all institutions cannot be trusted, corruptions everywhere. It’s hopeless in a way.. But I hope they would give us the “satisfying” ending without any guilty/uncomfortable feeling afterwards..
I really loved these episodes. I know they’re handling everything with the right timing but sheesh I wish we’d get to the romance portion. Especially after they released the new OST song. Where’s the gold?!
Who is his father?
What’s going to happen to MH?
I love how the monks smuggled out the gold while they were ‘seeking alms’! I wonder where it’s being stored?
When JH Seo asked Vincenzo if he could call him brother, Vincenzo gave him the strangest look, didn’t he? That was a good scene. I’m worried for Han Seo, though. Will he survive his brother and Myung-hee’s plotting?
I loved that Ragusang Gallery sent Cha Young the photo of the kiss. Ah, she likes him so much. When she said, in Italian, the saying about friends, the Netflix I saw said, ‘…two souls in one body’, but I could hear the Italian words ‘Due corpi’, so it’s one soul in two bodies. Which makes more sense. It’s a quote from Aristotle.
What do you suppose it was that made Vincenzo leave the plane and come straight back to the plaza?
Ep 17-18 thoughts
Very emotional scenes during the death and funeral of V’s mom. His regret of not being able to call her “Omma” while she was alive was palpable
He lost a family member but gained the building residents as part of Cassano family. And of course, they have to do it style! The change of “costume” was super cool 😎! Level up indeed. I was laughing and it was a perfect way to diffuse the previous emotional scenes. Only the monks did not change clothes – they were busy moving the gold, little by little!
I suspend disbelief sometimes if they are killing people for real or not. For one of the “crystal ball” guys, it was finally real. V pushed the button to detonate the bomb strapped on him. He asked CY “did you change your mind?”. After a long pause, she said no. You can see the relief in V’s face and action (he loosened his tie) that they are still in synch in purpose and plan of action. I don’t personally agree with this but sigh…
HSeo and V becoming more like brothers… hmmm. Foreshadowing?
Suspended disbelief again when V got shot. Whew, I’m glad it was fake. He always has a plan, this guy.
I was sad like the rest of the gang when he left for the airport. Where are the writers going with this twist with 2 eps to go? I am glad that it was not the case. V is back – was it because of CY or because he was not able to say goodbye to Inzaghi? Hahaha! That’s more like it. I’m ready for the last week of Vincenzo.
@Fern: I was also intrigued by the translation in Netflix,, one soul in two bodies makes more sense than two souls in one body.. thank you for that!!
Yeh HSeo – V scene was good. I’m worried about him too, hopefully he’ll be alive till the end..
I didn’t expect V leave the plane tho.. I was surprised he’s the one who helped CY, i was expecting mr laundromat with his scissors 😅😅
I think V realized something was not right or simply his intuition told him to get out.. he’s worried about CY right? He told CY to call her when something happened, I assume that he already predicted something..
@birdie007: maybe PD nim save the romance up until the very end to make us more curious.. hahaha
I hope that V will stay in S Korea in the end. (i was worried because Mr Park gave him the VIP ticket for hot air balloon.. hopefully V wouldn’t need to use that ticket)
And the gold!! Is it the monks who smuggled them while begging for the alms? But to where, I don’t have any idea..
And thanks for the translation. When I read the Netflix sub I knew something had to be off since it made zero sense.
One other funny, when hanseok told his brother to be the next Elizabeth Holmes 😂
I’m wondering if the delay in the episodes could be because of the romance part of the story? That there wasn’t supposed to be one in the first place, knowing the style of this writer. But they are including it in the end because of the demand from viewers? Plus why is the new OST coming out now an not next week?
Thanks for the translation @Fern, I also found that translation weird…thought it would be the other way around. I went to find the Aristotle quote and it is “What is a friend? A single soul dwelling in two bodies.”
I am totally love these two episodes and they are ending it with Vincenzo EVERY TIME! I think Vincenzo won’t leave Korea, he has found family in all these people. The emptiness when he felt when couldn’t find Inzaghi when he was going to feed it (which i think is a regular time that he does) reflects the kind of emptiness he feels when he is leaving. He has formed a relationship with Inzaghi like he has with the various people he connected in Korea. Inzaghi is a reflection of the relationships he has formed.
Also, I feel like the real villian is Vincenzo…the way he said how he tormented the robber that killed his foster parents for two years till he committed suicide gives me shudders how revengeful this guy can be. I am finding HanSeok not as villianous other than being greedy, cheating, using fraud to get what he wants. He commands people but he doesn’t have the power or smarts to tweak things like Vincenzo can do. Yeap he doesn’t have the tactical strategy or even fighting skill like Vincenzo.
However HanSeo is turning around and learning to stand up on his own, plus being quite sly because he needs to trick HanSeok into believing his act. Someone said that Hanseo is like the Bishop in a chess piece.
I am very impressed how this writer draws in a lot of references from real lawsuits or famous people. Did you notice The Intelligence Security head who got excited saying that he will be able to take over KimHeeWon (director) and ParkJaebum (Scriptwriter). This writer really knows how to make us laugh and laugh at themselves.
There must be story moments that screenwriters relish more than others, and one such must be the gallant-knight-to-the-rescue-of-the-fair-maid(s) at the end of Episode 18. How Park Jae-Bum must have smiled as he wrote Vincenzo’s dramatic reappearance, starting with his signature wrist-wrecking action, to put paid to the nasty Mr Kim and his minions. I loved Vincenzo’s nonchalant “I took care of it in another way” explanation of why he wasn’t on his way to Italy. I hope we find out what he actually arranged. Anyway, out comes his mafioso persona in the form of the Zippo cigarette lighter, and we’re sent to spend the next week in a state of delicious anticipation.
And it’s time I mentioned Mr Han. I’ve been collecting descriptions for him through the series: contemptible, toady, cowardly, self-seeking, sycophantic, dastard, etc, but the fact is that Mr Han’s character is essential to the unfolding of the storyline and again, one has to admire Park Jae-Bum’s super-skill at plot delivery through characterisation. But also, the actor Jo Han-Chul deserves more recognition than he’s been getting for sustaining and constantly developing this distinctly loathsome creature. I do wonder what his end will be.
I thought it a highly effective touch in Episode 17 when Vincenzo relives his memories during sleep, accompanied by the sound of music played backward. Another nice bit of direction detail comes later in the same episode, when Vincenzo adjusts the cushion for Cha-Young, after she has shown her acceptance of the death of the man who helped to kill her father. I have the feeling that in this, and similar episodes, Vincenzo is testing Cha-Young’s compatibility with him, a man who has two compartments for his life, one of which is not ethically acceptable to most people.
So, on to the finale. I’m hoping that we can arrange a re-watch of this series in the near future. There is so much I wish I had grasped during the first viewing.
I would love a rewatch though I have been slowly rewatching up till ep11 for now and just couldn’t seem to watch other dramas because my head as been spinning with Vincenzo with the little time I have.
Would @pm3 be interested to rewatch with us? 🙃 With some cookies🍪🍪🍩…I am really curious on your take on this.
@Juriel, that is very perceptive. I had been hoping for a redemption arc for Vincenzo, but it may be more interpersonal than moral.
Yes, this show is very well written and directed. There isn’t much to fault, imo.
I’ve been rewatching too. During my first watch I was pretty heavy handed with the ffwd button but now that I’m going back through I see there really wasn’t much fluff and I’m so glad for the 20 episode length. Now if only they can insert a slow dance scene to the John park song somewhere in these next last two episodes 🤔🤔🤔🤔
Vincenzo and Cha-Young have done two – is it? – ritualised dances of triumph through the series and, as @birdie007 suggests, I’d love to see another one which would be about love and not triumph.
@Fern, Although the setting is vastly different, I have been feeling similarities of character and fate between Vincenzo and Shane (Jack Schaefer), so I agree with you that redemption as such may not be on the cards. At one point I thought that, like Shane at the end of the novel, Vincenzo would disappear into the sunset, leaving behind a community profoundly affected by his presence among them for a time, but among whom he could never lead a normal life. However, now I’m not quite sure. Vincenzo’s growing attachment to the Geumga Plaza community, to Cha-Young and to Inzaghi, suggests it may be possible for him to settle there, although the normal life may be beyond him.
@Juriel the most logical ending would be Vincenzo leaving CY and geumga community behind. But still, my dreamy wish is that he would be somehow stay with CY. Or at least if it’s not possible for him to stay, they’d still be connected in a way. The happiest ending for Vincenzo (for me) might be is having a partner who understand him who supports him and being by his side.
@moonstar512 I’m with you strongly on this ending. I thought Vincenzo might return to Italy, and become the next godfather of the Cassano family, even if reluctantly. I was not surprised to learn that two presumably high-ranking people have been killed, that Paulo is getting ready to leave, and that there is deep division within the Cassano family. If that were to be the case, then I think Vincenzo would persuade Cha-Young to be his companion/lover and leave Korea to be with him. This story is so complex and so full of possibilities.
@juriel—I hadn’t thought about her joining him in Italy. Maybe that’s why (besides the plaza people) they haven’t shown her with really any other friends/family…it wouldn’t be hard to leave. I wish PM were watching so she could add her theories on what she thinks the end game will be.
I just hope that there’s no awful Mr. Sunshine ending and tears for all. Yes, there are a lot of possibilities. The worst would be Vincenzo and Cha Young each thinking the other is lost to them, but meeting up by chance in the future with their respective families at Disneyland or somewhere similar. 😝
I think V can have it all – rule in SK and Italy! 😊 Cassano family goes global.
Yes, that would be great, but he would forever be a ‘foreigner’ type in Italy, where he can blend into the crowd in Korea. The show seemed to put a lot of effort in making him learn more about Korean culture and food only to have him need to live in Italy? Ah, well. I’m not the writer. We’ll have to fanfic our endings if this doesn’t go well. Do we want another thread? I have asked twice now but pm3 must be very busy.
Why is Vincenzo’s name Cassano if his (assuming non-Cassano) foster family got killed? I’m confused why there would be an overseas fostering situation anyway, rather than an out-right adoption, unless it was requested to be that way until his mother died? Perhaps the Cassanos legally adopted him after the foster family died.
@Fern, but then if the Cassanos legally adopted him after the foster family died it seems like Vincenzo would be an adult at that time. Because for him to be able to play the foster family killer like a cat does a mouse, he would have been at least of legal age, considering what he did to his killer. A possibility is that they were distant relatives?
Anyway, so looking forward to the weekend! In Chef Toto the actor, instagram account writes: “Whatever you imagine, you will see more.” for Episode 19 & 20 :O :O :O
@rh
Any more biblical tie ins you’d like to point out? Or predictions?
I’ll leave my Episode 19 comment now because I won’t see episode 20 until the middle of the coming week.
How do they manage to retain the balance between the serious and the comic? One would think that by this time the drama might be coming down on one side or the other, but no. There is the complete hilarity of the various ways the gold is moved, even to Vincenzo’s coming to grief with his suitcase trolley, and the lovely detail of Vincenzo beating the monks’ woodblock in triumph until Monk Chaeshin takes it away from him. But then we come to the final scene with all its dark complexity and we’re left in the midst of another powerful moment of almost unbearable suspense.
Apologies for bringing in the music score yet again. I wonder who is responsible for the song Myung-Hee sings in prison with a very satisfied smile on her face? The song is an aria from Handel’s opera ‘Rinaldo’. and it’s sung by the heroine who has been imprisoned and is not happy about it. In the drama this marks a moment of ironic satisfaction for Myung-Hee, but how many viewers will pick it up? However, I really liked the scene where Cha-Young is getting ready to go out after work and thoroughly upsetting Vincenzo in the process. In this instance Chopin’s ‘Heroic’ Polonaise as background music is completely right. You don’t have to know anything about the music – it’s just appropriate for the mood.
I’ll add something about Episode 20 later.
@Juriel, I’ll reply on the Vincenzo 5 thread.
Vincenzo and Cha Young talked their way into the office of the art gallery by saying they wanted an exclusive viewing of the expensive piece “Nothing,” which was mostly just that. I suspect Writernim got the idea of such a work of modern art from the Italian artist Salvatore Garau. This past May, Garau sold an immaterial sculpture (fancy words for something invisible) for €15,000. Bidders pushed the price of “io sono” (Italian for “I am”) to double the pre-sale estimate. In February Garau exhibited another invisible artwork, “Buddha in Contemplation,” at the Piazza Della Scala in Milan, marked by a square of tape on a cobblestone walkway.
https://news.artnet.com/art-world/italian-artist-auctioned-off-invisible-sculpture-18300-literally-made-nothing-1976181
Do I believe purchases of such modern art are means of money laundering? You bet!
Grrrrr. What a con artist! Reminds me of my favorite cautionary tale, “Emperor’s New clothes.”
Can I vandalize his art work? Like throw a hammer at it or a bucket of black paint? How about I break in and steal his artwork? How much is it insured for?
The world has gone looney.
As @Packmule3 says, the effect of “The Emperor’s New Clothes” is still very much with us, and I have to smile when you mention the likelihood of money laundering. I can’t help thinking that people who waste their financial substance on such productions must spend a great amount of effort explaining it to their friends. I suppose they derive satisfaction from the exercise. What sillies they must be.