Finally, the end is here and people can see the light.
Bittersweet is a most overused adjective to describe this show. Please use it sparingly.
Happiness, like first love, doesn’t last forever. But nothing says tragedy like wallowing in regrets and might-have-beens.
No plot holes, please.
Enjoy the show!
LOL, @pkml3. That gif made me laugh.
I enjoy the sweet nostalgia and looking back on my young days, wondering if I too remember with those intense colours or rose-tinted lenses. I think I’m a pragmatic, semi-sentimental bitch. I knew even then, the kid-to-young adult phase was not going to last. No regrets and will make the same big decisions again.
I’m super wary of getting a time travel device to go backwards to change anything. (This comment might better be reserved for the Grid thread, but whatever). The joys and tragedies of 1 set of people cannot be offset against that of another, and one should not be making a decision to change to get a better life for oneself without considering that there will be cost to self and others.
Further, one might just be exchanging one set of unfortunate events for another anyway, and the other set might be so much worse!!!
We make the best decisions we can in the situations we are in, and we live out the the choices that we make. Is that ‘seeing the light’? 🤔 😜 😆
Something that occurred to me during the farewells to Yoo Rim last episode … the girls can still communicate, chatting as Injeolmi and Ryder37. I wondered why that possibility was never raised. Instead I was puzzled by HD bemoaning that she’d have no one to talk to about fencing, etc. I shall wait to see if this pops up in these episodes or if Show makes it sound that it’s impossible to keep in touch … then like it or not I’m going to call it plot hole!!!
Agree, @GB.
Many of us here on this blog are the older generation so we view things from a more long-range perspective (e.g., is the action/decision defensible?) and consider the wider impact (e.g., what’s the message?).
I think that’s what it means to be pragmatic.
We can be sentimental and we can gush over romantic things (like “Business Proposal”) but we shouldn’t leave our common sense nor our core values behind. Just because we’re watching something entertaining doesn’t mean we should rid ourselves of our standard operating principles. In fact, when something presents itself as harmless fun, and “makes you feel good!” my spidey sense switches on.
Used to be, kids would get value formation from their parents, school, books, and places of worship. But nowadays, kids spend more time on social media (and dramas, if they’re in Asia) than anything else. Without their knowing it, their minds are being formed by what they view — uncritically — on these things.
Which is a pity.
@pkml3, yes, the loss of good parent-child and even family time is really making itself felt now. It’s sad to see so many youngsters over-reacting to matters of small import in the bigger scheme of things.
The worrying thing is that these kids are may get older but not necessarily grow up, and they will hold positions of power in the future. I hope they get properly educated by life, in a good way, along the way.
I’m looking back as we come to the penultimate episode. It seems particularly appropriate since this is a nostalgic Show. Although we note that it is not Hee Do or even her mum who looks back, but it is the younger generation, Min Chae who is doing the walk in her mum’s past, and getting all the ‘feels’ on behalf of her mum as a youngster.
I guess the viewers who are adamant that the only happy ending is the one where HD and YJ got together in 2001 and stayed together, are nearer Min Chae’s generation.
From Hindsight
HD is upset that YR remains unfriendly, constantly treating her as if she does not exist.
HD : “I realised I would only be able to look her in the face during bouts.”
HD thinks, while looking at the ice-cream poster with YR as the poster girl : “I think I was closer to her when I watched her from afar.”
HD thinks or tells INJEOLMI : “I felt a little sorry for myself for admiring her so much.”
INJEOLMI : “Do you want to meet up? I kow we promised to keep our personal info a secret but I want to be there for you in person.”
RYDER37 : “Do you think our relationship will change if we meet in person?”
INJEOLMI : “I think so. We’ll like each other even more than now.”
And so it came to pass. They girls finally realised that they had been chatting with each other for ages and became the best of buddies for a short while. I like the twisted irony of how YR wanted to be there to console HD for the pain that she, YR had inflicted on HD. She had every reason to be ashamed of the way she treated HD to her face, when she found HD such a great person in the chat.
A nice comment on being nice even to people one may not like: they can become our best friends!
Ah, the light at the end of the tunnel!!!
It matches the tunnel metaphors of this show. We shall see if the light is not a from a train.
@Pm3 and @GB – I try to use pop culture as dinner topics with family including kdrama, the recent Oscars drama. The daughter is watching 25/21 with me and she was uncomfortable with the romance of a minor HD and adult YJ! She is good with them just being friends. Turns out she’s more conservative than us parents since we did not find anything wrong with it. LOL!
Looking forward to seeing how this will all end . I’m absolutely sure that not everyone will be happy. So goes the K Drama paradox. There will be people who will throw things at the tv/device used to view this drama. I’m glad that it wrapped before the finale because I don’t want an HPL popularity contest. I just hope that we get an honest look at how our friends and families turned out. Real life is unpredictable. As they say we live with too many moving parts.
Once YuRim went to Russia, she may have been unable to communicate with HeeDo given the limits of technology and the vagaries of government. I am thinking of dial up modems. In 1991 the Soviet Union fell. Athletes working in the Soviet Union before that were heavily regulated(we know that they were drugged and cheating was encouraged), 66 probably had their correspondence censored. If 2521 maintains authenticity, our two friends could not have maintained regular contact given the times. And the accusations of treason against YuRim should be considered in the context of history, happening while the Korean War had not achieved resolution. 2521 has remained silent about this fact. However, in South Korea I believe it is a given.The Russians supported North Korea. Given the previews, the 1990 meeting of our friends who are also rivals would be so much more dramatic give this unsaid context, a regular fact of life in S. Korea.
I hope that in producing this drama, the team did the same kind of meticulous research they did with fencing.
@Janey, I love that – light at the end of the tunnel! I hope that the ending really does become like a light at the end of the tunnel and not something that will make the tunnel (or story) collapse.
Looking forward to these last two episodes. Looks like episode 15 will finally be the 25-21 phase!
@Old American Lady, I’m wondering if the communications had become better by 2000, when Yu-rim left for Russia. By that date, I had friends who had come over to the States from Russia, some as internet brides, some for work or research. I don’t know the situation between South Korea and Russia at that time, however.
@Fern, The question was answered in Episode 15.They were in communication via the computer. It wasn’t the stone age. The Soviet Union had been gone for nine years.As an aside there has been Korean Russian restaurant in Brooklyn with touched of both countries’ cuisines. There has been an indigenous Korean community in Russia for some time with that population becoming partially assimilated.@Fern, You have the timeline right. But I’ll say that S. Koreans do have long memories with history hanging over everything. In K Dramas one sees the outrage of the netizens over certain sageuks, shows like Snowdrop. It goes without saying that there are historical reasons for the reaction to YuRim.
Episode 15 – An amazingly good episode. It continues unbroken the story of the 5 friends with emphasis of course on Hee Do and Yi Jin. It’s great to see that they’ve grown.
There were some great couple together scenes, but also the clues as to why they are now apart. Kim Tae Ri lit up every scene she was in. She’s the light in this show.
We’ve still got to wait for the Finale to get all the explanations spelled out for us, but we can pretty much guess some of it.
@Growing Beautifully, I’m part way through and it’s very good. Everyone had matured well so far. I agree with you. Madrid had me in tears, too.
I just finished watching Episode 15 as well. It was a pretty good episode, we have to give credit for the care they showed to the subject. Also, with lots of maturity for everyone.
I agree with you guys. The second part of the episode was not easy to watch. As it seems it scarred Yi Jin for life.
@GB unnie you can be there for someone until it becomes unbearable for you. Then you end it.
The thing is: Is HeeDo bitter about her decision? I think the adult HeeDo is… What do you all think about that scene?
I’m in a puddle of tears from HD-YR reunion match in Madrid. This storyline is one of the best examples of friendship amidst competition. How you can still root for the other person and be able to deliver your best. After the match, both are in tears after removing their headgear. Then HD opened her arms and YR ran into them with a tight embrace. Beautifully portrayed!
More tunnel metaphors… HD is literally the light at the end of the tunnel. She consoles YJ who felt conflicted with his decision on YR’s exclusive. Adult HD drove by the tunnel – it is blocked by a sign and cannot be traversed – while thinking of her diary memories full of friendship and love. “A time like that lasts only for a moment. Because those brief moments are what makes your long life shine.” Is that another sign that Beakdo endgame is not possible? Or is she saying that other matters of life or “adulting” will take over one’s priorities.
In the ep16 trailer, YJ returns to SK and HD is standing again at the tunnel entrance with a wide smile and caption on happiness and love. Ah, we already know this show is giving conflicting messages and signals. I’m glad we are at the end although I will definitely miss this squad.
YJ and HD are finally 25/21 And it was only for one episode! LOL! It was a bookend. Much of their year was missed or late dates, struggle with scheduling but also with sweet moments. The times affected them again with 9/11 and YJ had to be away and we can see his struggle but also him trying to put his worth professionally. They don’t officially break up in this ep but one can see the relationship is fraying. YJ misses his light (HD) yet chose to be away from her. I was imagining something explosive that will break them up but gradual drifting apart can also damage as bad. Sigh…
I’m set for the sad ending. I will be surprised if it will be HEA but surprise me anyway.
@Janey that scene with the “do not traverse” sign at the tunnel with HD saying a time like that lasts for a moment but those moments make your long life shine? To me that pretty much says you can wax nostalgic when you reminisce but those memories stay in the past. You do not traverse it by attempting to go “back in time” to relive the “good old days”. If you’re married, you don’t go back to your old flame to try to rekindle it. It was good whilst it lasted. Cherish it for what it was, like a trinket in your old collections box or your old diary entries. Close that chapter on your life. Reread it by all means but don’t linger too long in the past. There is life to be lived in the present.
Episode 15 made me cry a lot–the fencing match, 9/11 aftermath, the beginning of the end (I assume) for BYJ and NHD, NHD spending NYE alone.
But–it’s so strange that the adult Hee Do knows that her daughter is reading her diaries from her youth. Sure if it was about her training and her friendships when she was a teenager, I can see her being happy to share it. But there’s a lot in them about BYJ–and if he isn’t her daughter’s dad, isn’t that a little strange? I can’t imagine my daughter reading my journals from my early 20s when I was writing about who I was in love with at the time–because it wasn’t her dad (I hadn’t met him yet)!
I’m still wondering if 2521 represents something else besides the beginning/end of a long-ago relationship. The adult NHD doesn’t otherwise seem stuck in the past, so I really can’t see her naming her workshop for her first/last(?) year with BYJ.
@BethB I see the plaque 2521 as a homage to that part in her life. She acknowledges that it played a significant part in her life and shaping her but it stays in the past. Like a memorial of sorts. Life moves on.
@Janey and @nrllee, This episode was beautufully done on many levels. We had a point in the episode where they labeled their ages as 2521. What we saw was how fleeting their romance was. As time goes, their romance that happened in person was less than three years and marked by frequent separations( work and training, understandable to the two). It seems like part of the reason for its emotional strength was it was grounded in friendship. I also think that what makes our feelings for them so strong is the underlying notion of what it might have been if life had not gotten in the way. In essence we are mourning for that relationship.i just don’t want our pure hearted HeeDo to commit emotional infidelity when or if she is reunited with YJ.
@nrllee, Your thoughts about rekindling old relationships reminds me that with social media people seem to be searching for old flames. When found some end up committing emotional infidelity and most are disappointed. The advice columns are full of these. That being said, there is a part of me that is worried about a reunion. Seeing the beginning of the end and the end of the relationship gave me an ugly cry.
I also am with you all when it comes to HeeDo and YuRim. Their rivalry and true friendship was just lovely. Their first competition after YuRim’s move to Russia was very dramatic. We knew what was coming in the competition but their reaction to each other was perfect. Those hugs were devastating and brought on happy tears. It was then that they could be honest to each other (no longer withholding information about physical injuries).
Getting ready to cry me a river tomorrow.
Hi Everyone,
I have to re-watch Ep 15 properly, but at this stage I absolutely love this Show. It gets the emotions so right. There were so many complicated, contradictory, mixed emotions and Show got us to feel them along with our characters.
Show gets me all sentimental (the Oxford dictionary, I think it was, defines it: “having or arousing feelings of tenderness, sadness, or nostalgia, typically in an exaggerated and self-indulgent way”) but I think I’m sentimental in a somewhat less than exaggerated or self-indulgent way. I’m not the maudlin sort, but who knows. Others who look at me may be shaking their heads.
I love the great contrast of the 2 fencing girls between 1999 and 2001. In those 2 short years, they grew from being bitter rivals/enemies who walked out of an international press conference in a huff, to the best of friends, and mature athletes. They had become professional, respectful, and focused on doing their ‘jobs’ right, before they let personal stuff get in the way. How I loved their holding back and their letting go.
I like HD’s acknowledgement that what YR and she had gone through, – in continuing past all the complaints, insults, threats in the comments they received, to keep their friendship intact and still fence objectively – only the two of them could know and understand. That great anguish and accomplishment bonds them strongly.
In the relationship of HD and YJ, their strength is their great foundation of friendship. The kind that does not get swept away with a romantic breakup, but the kind that remains and overrides anything life might throw at it. We see so many one-sided love stories where one party fears to confess to the other because their friendship would be lost if the romance failed … but that will not be the fate of HD and YJ’s friendship.
Unlike her 1999 self, HD has become the one who is no longer confused. She is fully aware of what she has accepted in agreeing to be with YJ, and she sees clearly, immediately, when her support can no longer reach him. We see already that she has ‘calmed down’ to become more sedate, even in 2001.
Sidenote: I wonder if she’s managing to do College while continuing with her commitments on the national team. If she is, kudos to her!!!
I was sitting on the edge the whole time watching the Madrid match. Although their faces were hidden, I felt their resolve. Loved that it took 3 strikes to get the final point. They were evenly matched, stroke for stroke, hitting each other at the same time and the referee allowed them to try and try again. That was the most difficult and painful to earn winning point ever.
It was so appropriate that HD did not scream in triumph, but paused to take stock and to let the buried emotions emerge. So much pain and joy in that reunion of the fencers who were rivals and best friends. I think back on it with tears still. (And I haven’t even rewatched it yet!)
I’m also going to be a blubbering mess today. I’ll be sobbing through a rewatch and again tonight. What a good cathartic, cry-fest of a show LOL. Love it!!!
Finally caught up on this. I raced through this over a week or so. It is too hard to ignore those hints that they planted through the drama. My heart sank when YJ congratulated HD on her wedding back in ep 14, even though I have prepared myself all along.
I like what @Cleo said – you can be there for someone until it becomes unbearable for you. Then you end it. How many times can one person say sorry? How many times can one person give up expectations? To get over the disappointment, love is probably killed off slowly.
I felt the show spent 15 episodes to tell us how they inspired each other to chase their dreams and achieved some success in their careers. Sometimes it is “easier” to support each other when you are at the rock bottom. It is “harder” to support each other when they found some success in their careers. The focus shifts.
25 and 21 may be a snapshot of time then when the outlook of future is good. All things seem possible. Perhaps after that year, people like HD and YJ came to realisation that, not everything will work out. Not all dreams will be fulfilled but it’s OK. They had given it their best shots without regrets. This is the type of ending I am looking for.
Just that I spent about 15 hours of seeing their sweet moments. The last hour could still be hard.
I also felt the show has planted the “giving up” message all along too. Just as it is important not to give up, it is crucial to know “giving up” can happen in life, whether we want it, or not.
-Like the senior who gave up fencing even though she has progressed to quarter final, she still wanted to try something else in her life.
-Like Seung Wang who gave up her last year when it was so close to the final exam, when she didn’t want to give in to accept school violence.
-Like Yurim gave up representing Korea when she had bills to pay.
I loved your comments @Viva. What I noticed is that each of the young people had to face adult problems in their youth. What particularly affected me was HeeDo’s loss of sheer joy anspd exuberance;the very qualities that made her so endearing. The change in bemoaning was chronicled through the episode and foreshadowed in the prior episode during her, what seems like last interview with YJ. We know that adult HeeDo was downright reserved. Her wonderful spark was put out. I just hope she’s happy. Her adult face seems serene but this could have been a mask or defense mechanism. So right now I am mourning the loss of our 20 year old, who seemed to start changing with the disappointments she felt at 21.
I will catch up with all your comments later, but for now am I the only one who feel that they DO end up together? It was the apart scenes that had me thinking….although I still have to reconcile with the earlier details about the “Kim” surname and HD’s mother saying she saw YJ.
I wonder if their r/s or marriage will be a long distance one. That HD did eventually marry YJ but it was like when they were dating, that she had made do with YJ’s absence. I think the newsroom scenes of ep14 was so bittersweet because of their being apart due to their work. They have always avoided being tangled up in each other’s work and that newsroom one was the only time they COULD which is why they had all that longing looks. The strong line between them was that they would support each other from afar, that they would share each other’s burdens. And their r/s will be like HD and her mum’s r/s as she was growing up.
On a side note, when I see it in the light of You Are My Glory story, where there would be 3 months of not being able to see each other because of their work, I think it is all about the mindset. Ideally husband and wife should always be with each other isn’t it. It seems more common than not that husbands and wives live far apart. Forcasting love and weather has a couple that had not stayed with each other for about more than 10 years?!?!? How can?
Hello All..
we finally reach the end episode today. I hope that this Show give us the great ending. I can see why that the creator of this drama defined this as a coming of age / youth rather than a romance. I remember seeing my couple friends back in my young days, thought that they would last forever because they were so “lovely” to each other. However, after we graduated, life happens, they found their new love and married the different persons anyway. Our friendship days would never be the same again as what we had back in our younger days. We could never be “together forever”. Back in those days, we would do the assignment together, we would eat lunch and dinner together, we laughed as hard as we can. Yes they were for a relatively brief moment. But those moments stay at a special place in my heart.
@Viva,
I like what you said about the meaning of 25 21. I wonder what that number means for Hee Do that she even named her wood workshop as it is. I also agree with you regarding the giving up messages. Maybe giving up on “romantic love” between Heedo and Yijin is also something that we will see in the last episode. Giving up not always associate with bad or failure, I kinda remember what I feel when watching the Toy Stories 3. When Andy gave his favorite toys because he finally grow up and going to college. It was sentimental but it was for the best.
Let’s enjoy the finale and feel the Show to the fullest..
I’m pleased that we didn’t get the ‘no communication’ plot hole. YR and HD could maintain their friendship despite the challenging situation they were in. I hope they kept up the email after the Madrid match. I imagine, they must have ended up as rivals more than once in their long careers.
Being Hopeful and Giving Up
The thing about show seeming to spend 3/4 of the time on being hopeful, going forward to success, being persistent, becoming the best… and then seeing to spend the last one and a half episodes undermining all that LOL… Actually it wasn’t the case.
I agree with @Viva… the theme of giving up has been cropping up here and there throughout the series. Usually it got buried under the lively, positive spirit of HD, so we may have not given it that much attention. But we did note it before
I’ve felt the dual or mixed message in this Show. ‘To have hope and persistence first, is good…but to give up at a certain time, may be a wise decision too.’
I recall one hint of it very early on when HD’s first coach in her old school berated her for not having talent in fencing. He told her to give up… he said that knowing when to give up was a ‘talent’ too. This was a hidden sub-theme under the theme of ‘never say die’. ‘Never say die’, but know when to give up.
The message was mixed because we also heard Coach Yang say at one time that HD at 26th position got her opportunity to join the national team, because she didn’t give up.
I guess it’s all in the matter of when. There is a time to:
– be full of hope even in the face of failure (as in HD’s turning her tragedies into comedies),
– take all one’s opportunities (hence Coach Yang deplored Ye Ji’s giving up fencing too soon),
– fight for one’s rights (as in how YR set the restaurant owner straight),
– stop running away (as when YJ was inspired by HD to return in 1999),
– keep the faith (as in how Ji Woong was determined to continue dating YR).
To balance that out, one has also got to be aware when persisting in one’s goal or plans would cause more ill than good, when it would not be feasible and even unwise. There is also another aspect to and another kind of giving up… not as in admitting defeat, but in making necessary sacrifices.
– YJ’s father separated the family and ran off to protect them, and remained a ‘financial criminal’ because he was bankrupt.
– Much against the grain, YR’s parents had to accept her decision to compete for Russia to save the family. They had to give up their role of being her providers to accept becoming her dependants.
– Hee Do’s mum gave up on warm, family time with her lonely daughter, scarring her by not attending her husband’s funeral, in order to keep her job and raise HD.
– Seung Wan gave up school for her principles and Ji Woong knew he’d never make it academically and so gave up school in order to spend his time honing what he was good at.
Hee Do stands apart as the symbol of the one who never said die. Her attitude inspired YR and YJ at the time they needed her positive spark the most. Her words of support usually included something positive about the challenging experience the other was facing and to ‘hang in there’. Fortunately for her, in sports, it was possible to hang on and be able to improve, but it was not the case for every athlete or for others.
We see for example that UBS NY Correspondent Lee Gi Hun hung on for 20 years, but found his hopes dashed. More painfully and graphically as shown in the growing number of missing people flyers, in many circumstances, it would have been irrational to have a particular hope.
But even our positive HD would have to face the other aspect of giving up. Although she had offered to share all the joys and sorrows with YJ, ultimately, if it would be a wiser move in the long-term, and if it could eradicate YJ’s need to apologise, then giving up the romance with YJ might be/have been the right move in 2002.
Ad Hoc Stuff
@nrlee, @Janey, yes that tunnel metaphor is used over and again and is so apt. I wonder why she drove there. Maybe she was nostalgic for her old school and wanted to see the old haunts again. But there was no way back to the past, unless she was prepared to leave her car and walk.
I like that Hee Do drove a red car, the same colour as YJ’s old car, and that she’s always associated with red…liveliness, passion, danger (as when she jumped into situations without thinking). I noticed that when HD turned up unexpectedly to join YJ and his sunbae for drinks, after the news report, that there was a red phone box not far from their tables. When YJ used phone boxes to listen to HD’s message, they were red. However green is associated with YJ, the cool headed one, but one who empathises too much with victims and survivors.
I’m wondering about that missing diary. Might HD have left it behind in one of her trips and might it turn up in Episode 16. With the diary, we’d get a juxtaposition of the latest in her life with the events of 2002.
I really like how the present segues into the past, with Min Chae placing the banana milk drink on the table and young Hee Do coming in and swiping it.
For the record, I used an online date calculator and I believe that HD and YJ dated starting on 3rd Feb 2000. Then 10th September 2001 is their 600th day anniversary. However that date is also 9/11 in the US.
I look with amusement at the last known date we have of YJ and HD, when he went 1am to HD’s home to invite her for the trip for their anniversary, and they went to buy the red couple luggage. It encompassed everything. Hugs and teasing, a pseudo fight over past lovers and running off exuberantly with their couple bags. Sadly this was the sign of the end, and the bags were likely never used by them as a couple.
I liked that HD did go to the apartment that YJ had rented for their trip, and that she saw the wine, flowers and cake that he had prepared. Saddest of all was his hopeful love note, anticipating a future together.
I wonder if she kept it or left it there, since he had told her to go home, and she had lied that had done so. That note might make a re-appearance as well. 🙂
Kalimera Everyone,
I sneak in because I have a seminar to attend and I won’t be online for some time.
@Viva thank you for liking what I wrote yesterday. It is something I didn’t write lightly.
The thing that makes me sad and kinda bittersweet is not that “times” made them to be apart emotionally. Yes, it is true that their relationship started as a friendship first and that made their bond solid.
The part that makes me sad is that if you look it from the outside, still HeeDo seems to have regrets. I still cannot understand how she lost that Fire of hers. It is something we have discussed with @Fern repeatedly.
After a break up you can be reserved, you can be hurt, but you don’t lose your core. It is still there not dormant, just hidden for a while and not for 13 years. Does she miss Yi Jin that he is out of her life? Most of the times and that is the healthy thing to do for two people who break up is to stay away from another. It is the healing process needed.
Although I liked everything so far in the youth days, I think that there are some things technically that are lacking in how the adult HeeDo is acting.
I agree with you who said above that it is weird that HeeDo let her daughter read her diaries where YiJin is there. She wants her daughter to experience friendship and love like her. So, this is a didactic way to show MinChae that HeeDo is not the person who her daughter believes she is? or was?
If HeeDo married another and has been alone in her marriage is she sorry about it? Does she feel alone? Does she keep in her mind her time with Yi Jin and the gang as her shining years that keeps her strong?
These little questions that are adding up in my mind doesn’t let me calm down about the adult HeeDo.
I totally understand if they fell apart. I don’t understand adult HeeDo’s feelings and reactions. It is like Kim TaeRi made an impression to everyone and we get to see a foreigner in the 2022 timeline instead.
Have to go for now! Read you all laters!
Gosh, even reading everyone’s comments is making my eyes water. I have nothing more to say, except what a shame that HD had to learn of YJ’s transfer through her mother – 3rd or 4th hand. It broke my heart.
@Cleopatra, best wishes for your seminar. I hope that it’s interesting for you.
You brought up a good point. HD is now married to someone who seems to be away a lot. It’s ironic that distance and situation made her very solid friendship and love of YJ fall apart.
Yes @OAL, perhaps that is the nostalgia the shows try to pitch at.
@moonstar512, I felt that is the spirit of this show, and perhaps the part that can easily resonate. A lot of us likely have a snapshot of time that we had fond memories of, but unlikely to be able to go back. Life, just moves on. There is this innocence of youth captured in the moments before we need to face the unavoidable goodbyes and disappointments.
@GB, beautifully said as usual. You reminded me of that cold-hearted coach. Back then, I felt he hasn’t helped HD enough! He hasn’t tried hard enough! Getting to the end of the story, I think I can understand that line. I know there is a running theme that YJ doesn’t want HD to experience the bad experiences. However trying hard doesn’t always meaning winning. Knowing when to accept defeat is a talent. Experiencing “giving up” completes life.
@Cleo, I re-watched HD and YJ TV encounter and can’t help but notice the longing and the loss KTR and NJH displayed. I can feel them. I felt KTR’s HD was still sending support to YJ so I felt that part would never change. I am not sure the adult HeeDoo carries the same sentiment. KTR acting is hard to match. I can’t tell the loss of spark and hope is because adult HeeDoo is not KTR, or it is intentional that adult HeeDoo is supposed to be reserved.
Thank you for all the posts, I feel that the discussion here have parsed the show’s message(s) really well and beyond the titillating question of who is MinChae’s dad.
I have nothing to add other than I love this show on many levels and I’m ready for the final episode. Thank you Heedo for sharing your diary with us!
Ahhhh!!!! Yeap..@pm3 you were right! 💕
Just one little factoid about 9/11that the production got wrong. If you look at the contloraty accounts of the day, you would find that compared to the scope of the tragedy there were very few injuries. The paradox was that hospital staffs geared up for casualties and few arrived because so many were in killed. The closest hospital, Beekman Downtown saw very few. There was no panicked emergency room. And those who did survive wanted nothing more than to get away from the area to go home. So many ended up covered in the debris cloud. However, even though the dramatic license was wrong factually, the drama did manage to show the personal toll of the tragedy. The aftermath with the missing people posters was devastating. The New York Times printed obituaries if all of the victims known to be lost. Having been to the area regularly for meetings, and walking past what they called the pile, I can tell you that the shock lasted well beyond what one could imagine.They are still building on the site over twenty years later. @Cleopatra, there was a Greek Orthodox church that was severely damaged and is just now in the final stages of being rebuilt. It stood as testament to the hope of survival.
A year before the tragedy I was a class mother responsible for middle school boys on a school trip to the observation deck. The boys were full of early adolescent energy and were not very obedient. Corralling them was not easy. On 9/11 I thought there for the grace of God that we were not there.
Episode 16 – Regardless of how we may review this Show, I have no regrets having watched it.
I’m pleased that my guess about the diary and the note from the 600th day anniversary came to pass, but there are questions of course like why the diary ended up where it did and the luggage mix-up too.
It was consistent until the end, which is what I look for. I get particularly upset when an ending is ‘wrong’. But this Show kept to its trajectory from the beginning.
Part of the being consistent was that what was not shown was never revealed. I can imagine there are some unhappy viewers who wanted more answers, but perhaps we asked the questions that were not meant to be asked. Show never pretended to be something that would go in detail beyond the microcosm of a small community in a narrow stretch of time.
I enjoyed the emotional ride and I understand what HD meant when she mentioned emotional exhaustion in her diary. I’m glad to say that Show did not exhaust me, but I’m definitely looking for something lighter for a while.
I don’t know about you, but the ending really annoyed me even though I was expecting Heedo and Yijin not to be together. What really annoyed me was that the two secondary couples ended up together. Yurim and Jiwoong are now engaged (I did not foresee them actually making it), and Seungwan (my favorite character) even waited for Yihyun. I don’t understand the writer’s reasoning. Why would the other two couples make it while the main couple dwindles away? I would have been ok with Heedo and Yijin not making it if one of the other couples also didn’t; this way, there is a realistic theme of first loves not being the end-all of life. Now, all the first loves survived but the one we came to see. Oh, well. On to the next drama. I can’t wait for Again My Life.
@whykay91. I understand what you are saying. The couple with the simplest type of love stayed together, despite having a long distance relationship. Seung-wan – well, I don’t think that she actually waited for Yi-Hyun, but she was delighted to make his re-acquaintance. Boy, he turned out well, eh? We don’t know the trajectory of their relationship. I would have been less surprised if YJ and Seungwan ended up together because to me, they were compatible.
@Growing Beautifully, HD or the luggage desk must have looked inside or actually read the name tag. It is confusing. If she knew it was his, why didn’t she ask the luggage desk to call him – she had his phone number? I think she wanted to avoid him, but then why did she go after him when he brought hers home?
Who is the Kim Eun Soo who sent the diary to YJ? I can’t find the name in the cast list. I read that it’s a unisex name. Is it the future (Kim) husband of HD? Have I forgotten a name that was mentioned? Then YJ wrote a reply in the diary and left it at the book seller’s for her to collect, but never told her. What a shame that it took 20 years for her to read his words. Would it have made a difference? I don’t think know; it might have calmed her soul.
We never got the story behind HD’s marriage. I said in another post that it would be a pity if she ended up in a marriage that had a largely absentee partner. I wonder if she cared less about his absence than about YJ’s, or if she were just resigned to it.
Oh, the mobile phone rep at the shop who ended the couple’s contract for HD and YJ. The actor is Kim Nam Hee who played Colonel Takeshi Mori in Mr Sunshine. He seemed as broken up about the split as HD and YJ.
I like the ending, it makes the most logical sense with the messaging of the show. That does not mean my gut-wrenching feeling of loss is not there.
As @PM3 said, the story wallowed on past, even the audience did. But you know who did not wallow -Heedo. She made the decision to end the relationship because she feels that it’s not good for her in the long run. YJ is like her mom who would protect her but will not share the ups and downs of life with her and she did not want that. Remember that she is the person who knows what she wants and she does not like being in a limbo. They did not even delve on how to fix the relationship, she already made up her mind. YJ until the end has been open to resuming the relationship. If HD had wavered during the signing of couple plan cancellation, at the tunnel, at the bus stop with red luggage or contacted YJ within those 7 years, I think YJ would have come back to her arms. But no, she did not look back. her only regret was the last words they exchanged. And she was able to communicate that through the lost diary. That’s why the drama did not even bother to show who she married since that was immaterial.
I know there’s a lot of what ifs but it’s hard to live a life like that. Heedo was really badass and unconventional til the end. It is consistent with her character and I respect her for that. Like Yeji deciding to quit fencing even if she made it to quarterfinals or SW quitting school in her senior year to stand by her principles as @Viva hilited in prior post.
For YJ, he gained the professional success he wanted and reunited his family. The 2nd couple are together because they wanted to be together and made it possible. I love JW’s proposal in fencing disguise. This could have been YJ and HD also but alas, it was not.
I’m glad that reading the diary made Minchae understand her mother more and she has made up her mind to do ballet again and to experience her youth. She did not even have to read the last diary. Ah, Minchae grew up as well.
The last epilogue was meta. Ibarro was the search engine in Search WWW and YJ had to answer questions to reset his password. LOL!
I will miss this beautiful show and like nostalgia, I will rewatch some parts. No regrets since we were gifted with memorable performances of the cast.
I did fully believe that HeeDo and Yujin would break up and not get back together. Personally, I’m fine with how the ending played out. However, there were enough plot holes, where people did things that didn’t make sense, all to get the plot moving in the direction that it needed to go, that drove me to distraction. I was particularly sensitive to professional industries, human interactions, or life circumstances that I’m familiar with. We all have our thresholds of tolerance in what we’ll accept in dramas. (My medical friends are amused when anyone does CPR on a woman’s stomach.) I’ll save everyone the time and attention of my grievances. In general, I’m fine with the macro of the story, but fussy about the micro.
Anneyong!
I just finished watching the finale. How do I feel about it?
Obviously I am not going into witch hunting on the writernim and on TvN. On MDL a lot of people are extremely furious about the ending. The writernim enraged people by giving happy endings to the secondary characters and not the main ones. So they feel robbed.
I don’t feel robbed and we are not robbed on B.O.D. because we have realized for some time now Yi Jin and Hee Do are not endgame.
How do I feel?
I feel that they should break up, but not for this reason they decided to show us. Mostly because HeeDo decided to end it without talking with Yi Jin. At the same time Yi Jin did the same because of his trauma.
So, we have two people who loved each other unable to communicate at all. One of them who was the reckless one from the very beginning decided to end it. The other one who was the adult from the very beginning just agreed.
Was it wrong? Should they have tried to fix it first? I am not going to answer to that. We all have stories about old loves and we do know what we have done or didn’t do and how that went.
I have to say though now that the story has finished, the actress who played adult HeeDo is not by any means close to Kim TaeRi’s acting.
She obviously got instructions from the Director but all the scenes we saw in present time were false. We believed that adult HeeDo had lost her Fire, when she didn’t. It was a mirage. They deliberately misled the public and trolled it for several weeks in a row.
TnV seriously when you play with fire, get ready to be burn.
I am not regretting watching this. I have to say that Kim Tae Ri and Nam Joo Hyuk were amazing, as all the others from the gang.
I will cherish only their youth days and MinChae returning to ballet. All the other scenes will be omitted from my brain.
I want to say though the following:
If HeeDo tried so much to continue fencing in the beginning of the series and then we see that she is willing to let Yi Jin go just like that from her life that means that she is only passionate for those things that can control and not when things are out of her control.
Hence the absence of her husband or ex husband or whatever.
Goodbye Twenty Five, Twenty One. I don’t know if I will miss you.
I will definitely miss Back Yi Jin though, who didn’t have a character’s alteration suddently in Episodes 15-16.
P.S. I will read you and answer to you tomorrow. I had a very long day today!
P.S. 2
So Na Hee Do didn’t want to feel alone in a relationship, but @Fern as it seems she ended up alone. My guess was right!
P.S. 3 Do you feel that we got a closure ? I don’t. They should have showed us that Yi Jin was not alone either. Where are their healthy relationships?
So the story was consistent? I haven’t watched since Ep8. Just reading comments. And we were right in predicting a parting? The reality is that relationships are often a victim of circumstances. Just as their relationship caught alight during “the times”, it lost its spark as a result of a different “time”. It was time to say “when”. Learning to walk away and to do it resolutely and not wallow wondering what may have been is a life lesson. It’s about owning the responsibility of your decision at that point in time. Hindsight is always 20/20. But when you’re in that situation, you make a decision with the best information you have available to you at that point in time and then own the consequences. Sure there might be tinges of regret at times when you look back and wonder. Wondering is okay for a bit but not to be dwelt on. There are decisions to be made in the present. Lingering too long in the nostalgia/regrets of the past doesn’t help address the problems of the present. In the end we didn’t really need to know why HD opted to marry the mysterious Mr Kim after all. She made that decision and she owned it (for better or worse). Just like she broke up with YJ (for better or worse). Acknowledged it for the part it played in her life but left it in the past.
It does look like writer Nim is going to experience a lot of backlash for “disappointing” the majority. But to be fair she already prepped us for a parting from the beginning? It was the public who wanted a happy (together) ending for the couple who concocted theories galore to get there.
The ending of this show really made my heart ache as in physically. I can understand why NHD went on that trajectory.
1. She wanted companionship
She wanted to go through the ups and downs of life together with her partner. I can understand her disappointment that BYJ did not lean on her when it was really difficult (I also get why he did that). But for her being in a relationship without that would be lonely. It doesn’t make sense to undergo through the disappointment of being let down & left on your own every time there is a scoop and also being apart with no word on what is going to happen to your relationship.
2. She wants to take care of her heart
She knows the loneliness of growing up with a Mom that was not there and it makes sense why she decided not to go with that with BYJ.
For me it is noteworthy that she may have decided on her own to break up but he also decided on his own to move to New York without telling her. She just received the news after he has done it. So that lack of communication just puts the future of relationship in limbo. Plus not being able to reach & connect with BJY’s emotions and comfort him that is just too difficult really.
***About the diary being sent to BYJ***
A random person picked it up on the bus and as BYJ identity card is there I would assume his current address is there? I am not sure what info is in the Korean national card. I’m just wondering if it is like the UK driver’s license where it has the address.
The show’s ending was realistic and relatable, yet it left me underwhelmed. The relationship of HD and YJ could have worked, but the writer chose not to let it. Still, I am happy that things worked out for YR and JW, and also for SW and YJ’s little brother. Overall, I liked the characters, but found the writing a bit uneven, despite the many uplifting moments. I feel that Our Beloved Summer was a more consistent show, but I have no regrets for watching 25 21.
The ending resonates with me.
During my whole high school years I lived in a Dormitory in campus and met my best friends as we were roommates. These girls became my family and some of the moments we had were one of the best times of my life. We all passed a popular university. However, I deliberately decided to go to a university where none of them were accepted. I decided that due to the career I wanted to do. I had to muster all the courage to be able to live on my own without them. That was the time where social media was just starting and cellphones were really expensive. It was really hard for an introvert like me but I don’t regret that decision. I grew as a person on my own. I wouldn’t have met & married my husband if I went with my mates. Thankfully, we have all reconnected and have a very active chat group despite all of us living in different countries.
I am glad that the drama has chosen to highlight certain chapters of the characters’ lives and leave us with to imagine the rest.
Having read all the comments so far, I’ll weigh in. I think a key point is that HeeDo lived with her mother who chose her job over her husband’s funeral.she saw that Yi Jin chose his career and the New York assignment without a discussion with her, but learned of his application from her mother., it took time to process the implications, but, given her life, it became a deal breaker. In a strange way, she would have been continuing her relationship with her mother through h YJ. She knew what she had to do, experienced the pain and followed through.
While HeeDo’s mother eventually came around to her with her collapse, her mom seemed to have more affinity to YJ, eventually recommending him to be her successor. This was a telling moment that showed how hermother’s profession defined her life.
I also liked that HeeDo initiated the break up. It was her recognition of how untenable a long time relationship with him would be. It was established in several ways thar it was HeeDo’s choice,
no matter how painful.the fact that she wanted a proper end that made it clear that it was closure, knowing full well that their love for each other was not in question made it so heartbreaking. They only saw each other through the video interview and it appears he did not get together with the group. One of the other messages there was that the other four had been kids while he c was always in both age and responsibility, the adult. We saw him pay his respects at the funeral but that he did not go to dinner. And we saw that his ultimate priority was getting his family back together.
Another point is that HeeDo’s mom had mentioned to adult HeeDo that she had run into YJ. HeeDo seemed to be somewhat disinterested by this. What we didn’t know was the fact that later on is the Mom was significant in yYJ’s career.
As to HeeDo’s loss of exuberance, we see that it probably arose more from her fencing career than her relationship with YJ and probably didn’t result in her ultimate retirement. We are so conditioned to attribute every emotion to romance in K Dramas that we may attribute see the real reasons for retirement his to a failed romance.
As to the other couples, an argument could be made that they all met in childhood and that the one relationship that ended started almost inappropriately for adult YJ and minor HeeDo (the post new years kiss was a legal technicality)..
I also think the found diary was a nice touch because what we saw is that our couple didn’t want to end it all with hard feelings and that the fondness they felt for one another as well as their gratitude was real and would always be there.
In the end we see that time period as a found memory that HeeDo had almost all but forgotten. Her actual narration put it into her perspective. However, our emotional reactions came from the writer’s use of narrative clues(that in many ways we ignored), our familiarity with K Drama tropes(that we assumed would go in certain ways) and mostly from our love of these well filled out characters whose emotional journeys we intently followed.
In the end, given what might be viewed by others as a kind of trolling, I saw as true to life. Life is never wrapped up in a shiny bow. We go on and hope that we live and learn and ultimately have a good life.
HeeDo certainly did, as did her friends. Was I manipulated? Yes, loved every step of the way.
@Cleopatra, thanks for explaining the way the diary got from the bus to YJ’s doorstep. I hadn’t thought about the ID card inside. I was overthinking it because the family name of the sender was Kim.
I suppose my feelings about the ending is, if they had to break up, I wanted really good and stable marriages for both YJ and HD. I don’t know if they have those or if they don’t. The thought of HD possibly being estranged in a marriage goes against all of the reasons she broke up with YJ.
When he said that her support was burdensome, I thought, ‘that can never be taken back’. I hated that he vocalised that, although I understood that from the other side of the world, her support was too distant, too abstract, even awkward. He was traumatised by the 9/11 tragedy – we see it with his alcohol, cigarettes, pills to sleep. HD, due to her own childhood, wants to be able to give that support and to have it received. YJ ran away from the difficulty as he had run away before. Their needs diverged. I’m glad that HD suggested that he speak with someone – try therapy in other words – when he returned to NYC.
Hey everyone,
I am glad that most of you don’t have any regrets watching this Show, despite our own questions and projections.
I know how crazy that many viewers condemn the tvN and even writernim because they disappointed in the ending of this story. Many people also still asking who is Minchae’s father too (lol). But for me, like @GB said, maybe we have asked the questions that not needed to be asked after all. Hence, like @Janey mentioned, the Show doesn’t tell us who is Mr Kim that Heedo married with anyway because it is not the point that the Show wanted to tell us. (Just like how is Baek Yi Jin love life now, yes I am actually curious on this part too, lol)
I don’t know about you all, but I can relate with Heedo regarding the regrets she had on the breakup tunnel scene with Yijin. I also have the certain past moments that I played over and over again from time to time, because I have regrets on how they went. I imagined on what if I said different things toward that persons, regrets to say something that we didn’t mean to. But I am glad that finally Heedo knows that Yijin understood, because Yijin actually had read her notes. Yijin also gave her the final notes too. Therefore the scene where young Yijin and Heedo say goodbye to each other in the tunnel is so poignant to me. It was the scene that they both wanted for their breakup. Not the one where Heedo left Yijin alone with her harsh words.
Yijin for me is consistent to the end. As for Heedo too. Previously I was confused, why it was easier for them to be apart but still emotionally connected somehow when they confessing their love rather when they were when in a relationship. But if I try to understand, I might think that it was because Heedo realized what kind of love that she wanted to have and it is different from what kind of love that Yijin could give to her at that moment. Maybe their love languages are different too. We can see that until the tunnel scene, Yijin still trying to keep the relationship despite his own misery. But that was not what Heedo wanted. Being apart physically is surely different from unable to connect emotionally…when Yijin decided to stop sharing his emotion with Heedo for the sake of protecting her, unfortunately it was the point where Heedoo started to feel left out in their relationship. She no longer wanted to wait for him. She no longer wanted to be disappointed. She just tired to listen to his apology every time. Therefore she decided to end it, and Yijin.. after he read Heedo’s diary. He finally knew, that his love only hurt Heedo in anyhow. He couldn’t give Heedo what she needed, as he was struggling with himself too. To force Heedo to wait for him, and to bring her into his “pace” only put her in more sadness too. So even though it was hard for him to let her go. He knew that he will do it anyway.
Oh and if I can imagine on how is Yijin love life now. I somehow can imagine that he is still single, or even if he is in a relationship, it might not be as deep as his relationship with Hee do.
I kinda hope that the squad could still have their drink together at least in Seungwan’s dad funeral. But no.. hahaa.. But I am satisfied enough knowing that they were coming to Seungwan’s dad funeral. I imagine that they were still there in each other’s big moments. Support each other in their own way.
All in all, this drama is one of the shows that I would recommend to my friends to watch. There were so many messages, but we still have to be critical in absorbing those. Kim Taeri, Nam Joo Hyuk and the 3 others acting are so great. I hope that many people would appreciate them and give much love for them too.
Thank you all for your comments and sharing your thoughts for this drama. I had a great time with you 💕💕💕
@OAL, I resonate with your explanation “what others view as trolling is true to life.”
As I watched on their argument and their breakup. I could clearly see how this was not what HD wanted as a r/s. The similarity of YJ to her mum in terms of the priority they give to their careers and the lack of communication. That was a pain point. As a friend, HD would have easily supported YJ from a far, but as a life partner the expectations are higher. It is not that YJ was busy, it was that he would not share his burden with others…and especially HD. They could not connect. As a gf, it was emotionally draining.
This was a drama about the past. It was as if we were reading HD’s diary like MinChae, even to the end with the break up closure in the diary. Youth is the kind that is full of hope and craziness and joy.
I am ok that they did not show certain characters like MinChae’s dad because this really wasn’t about him. That would have been a post-2521 story. Though everyone is dying to know 😅😅
Overall, I also realise how much we want a happy ending in the stories and dramas we watch because in life, sometimes it does not always end happily.
I’m ready to move on, it was a memorable watch but not something I will rewatch.
@ Everyone and @OAL Great! You’ve put down what I had I had in mind.
Yes, what HD said about how the more she supported YJ (his career), the farther apart they grew… They allowed each other to let their careers take priority over their relationship. They would always be defined by those careers, especially since both were public figures. It would definitely be untenable to continue a relationship, apart, only subsisting on a phone plan and short phone calls.
It made sense from HD’s point of view, that if YJ applied for the foreign correspondent position without consulting her, and then got the position, it would be the end for them.
About the mix-up of the luggage. In the phone call, YJ had said he was returning to Korea the next month and HD said she’d be away for more than a month. But we see that it’s 2 months’ later that he comes through to the arrival hall. That means that he returned later than he told HD and she had returned earlier than she thought she would. Their luggage must have turned up at the same time in the luggage collection at the airport.
She left his luggage in the airport with instructions and his name. He realised that it meant she didn’t want to see him. He had 2nd thoughts about leaving her bag at the airport, and so brought it to her home but left it outside the gate, rang the bell and left.
She told him that he should have left her bag at the airport too but he said he couldn’t do it. She was the one who could let go, but it was a struggle for him.
His point of view was that he didn’t want to be someone who would embarrass HD, and so went forward in his work, always pushing himself to be a better, more experienced reporter. He didn’t understand that they would just drift apart and that a relationship could not be continued, the way they were doing it.
I like that Hee Do was always clear, and consistently so. When she believed it was right or what she wanted, she didn’t back down. Nothing wishy-washy about this girl. She recognised that they were in the middle of the breakup from before. The thing to do was to end it properly.
About the missing diary. It was strange that although she’d told the bus company to contact her, they sent the diary to YJ instead. I agree that it was because they found his Resident Card in it and sent it to his address. What was a bit odd was that instead of leaving it at HD’s place, he left it at the bookshop. I don’t think getting it back earlier would have made any difference to HD’s decision.
I thought it cute that when YR and JW heard that HD had broken up, they took off their woolly caps. It was like they paid respects to the dead relationship.
The final cut was ending the couple plan. It was also cute that the phone shop guy wanted to give them 4 weeks to think about cancelling the phone plan. Instead of removing his woolly cap, he slid it over his eyes … witnessing a breakup was tough. LOL.
It was telling that in their breakup conversation, YJ’s background was the darker tunnel while HD’s was the bright park. Only the dead-looking dark stems/roots of what had once been the green creeper remained on the wall of the tunnel.
It’s interesting that we see adult HD at the tunnel but the barriers are gone. She is able to walk through the tunnel, diary in hand, literally taking a walk down memory lane for a while, before peacefully returning to her present. The diary made the proper end to their fraught breakup, after 20 years.
This time the imaginary young HD is lit up from behind by a brighter tunnel, and it’s imaginary YJ who has the sunny park as his backdrop.
The tunnel that we see as Adult HD walks out, and as the 5 friends run through it, is again covered in greenery and we hear HD’s voiceover:
That was their trip and their very own summer in their memories.
The Ending
It was both happy and painful, but it felt right. I guess many of us in our youth, held on for a while to the illusion that what we had would last forever. I’m glad that our OTP had a chance to mourn their breakup together and to have proper closure, and everyone had a logical continuation.
I loved the girls being together. The relationship between YR and HD was satisfying til the end. And the diaries had their impact on Min Chae so that she decided to write her own story.
The last song plays with the collage of youthful memories and stills of their BTS. That, I thought was nice. Then the epilogue. It’s nice to know that despite his many girlfriends, Yi Jin considered only Hee Do his first love. LOL.
A life lesson I learned early on from “The Little Prince”, . . ‘You are responsible for what you tame.’ Over the course of their relationship, YJ had leaned on HD and she had become accustomed to giving him the support he needed, he allowed it and responded positively to it. She was giving him the presence she missed when her mother was busy with her career.
Having been deployed in the Navy, there were times when the lady I was dating and I were incommunicado (pre-email and social media days), but I kept writing the letters so that when the mail finally went through, the lady I left behind knew I had been continually thinking of her and missing her. I shared my days with her, not that they were exciting, but it helped her to feel what my life was like.
Sorry, he blew it.
That being said, the hug between HD and YR after the Madrid final was one of the best moments I’ve enjoyed in KDramas. You could feel the love and respect they each had for the other.
Did anyone find the cancelling of the phone contract a foreshadowing of what could have been if they have continued their r/s? It was like at the lawyer’s office or something signing divorce papers. I laughed at the awkwardness of the phone shop owner as if he was presiding a divorce 😛
HD got it right that in a way, when she said at the gathering with friends that cancelling an engagement is easier than divorcing. I think in that light she had foresight. She clearly knew what she wanted, even in her relationships. As reckless as she can be, I like she is very sure of what she wants and dares to go for it. She pursued the r/s with YJ though and she decided to end it. All the while, I didn’t sense YJ’s clear pursuit of her….sigh…on hindsight I felt like I got caught in the hoohaa and wanted them to end up together.
In this light, well I would say, you have chosen well HD.
My favourite pair in this drama is Yurin and HeeDo, most of their later scenes made me cry more than YJ-HD scenes. It is a beautiful friendship.
YJ and HD achieved their dreams: YJ brought his family together, and HD became YR’s rival.
@Grace – Heedo’s first love has always been Yurim. Love the story arc of the 2 from fan to enemy to friends and greatest rivals. Winning is not everything (although it’s hard to really see that from HD because she was a famous athlete) and the diaries paved way for Minchae to understand this aspect of her mom’s life and passion. And it so happened that YJ was part of that story and growth. The writer is consistent on this part – she writes compelling female relationships. HD and YR’s are my favorite kdrama BFFs. 💗
We came to care and got invested in the cast of characters esp HD and YJ hence our emotional reaction to root for them til the end. Kudos to the actors for doing a great job in making them authentic and relatable people – and for bringing us along their journey.
As Yijin reported from the last Taerung team match, “The result was bittersweet but the journey was beautiful.”
Glad to know most of you have enjoyed the show as much as I do. The friendship between HD and YR was even more beautiful than the one in Search: WWW.
@GB I think the missing diary was found by a bus rider who then sent it to YJ, not by the bus company.
I think this is a drama that would be worth a rewatch after a period of time. We now know what happened but we’re too close to it and the emotions it generated in us. The writer, who I guess is new put so many themes and subplots init, that it would be fun to ,should I say, parse it more dispassionate. Right now I will end with a big bravo to the cast. Kim Tae RI and Bona are spectacular friends. I think Nam Jyu Huk upped his game and grew as an actor. The Mom and coach were spot on and the other friends gave us real teen experiences. Whoever did the actual fencing gave us a master class in the sport. There are lots of great dramas out there but I hope this one has award winners. Best couple: Hee Do and YuRim!
I’m grateful to have found BOD and to have been forewarned of the narrative the show is taking. I would have been one of many on twitter and on forums who are needing therapy. LOL.
I don’t regret watching the show too. It’s fun to have watched KTR play a character from 18 to 33 years old and nail it. And I’m glad NJH has made his character more relatable (than the tsundere-type the character was originally written as). Their break-up scenes in the last episode felt so real.
It was HD who decided to turn their relationship into a romantic one and it was also her who decided to end it. But I felt like both of them gave up too easily, after all their manifestations of love for each other. Well, that happens. It’s great that HD realized she can’t live a life with a person who’ll treat her like her mother did. But why do I feel sad for adult HD? She mentions letting MinChae read her diary from the past so she can learn about the passions of friendships and love. What does that say about her relationship with MinChae’s father then? And why would MinChae be excited to read about her mother’s relationship with someone other than her father? It also appears that even her relationship with her friends did not last. If they are still good friends, MinChae would have known them.
So, yeah, I’m happy to have watched the show BUT.
Kalimera Everyone,
I am going to write this about Twenty Five, Twenty One.
I don’t know if I want to write more about the story.
I was ready for the breaking up, but I am not okay with how the Writernim used the present timeline in her story and this is a technical thing I am referring to.
I just don’t like it because the Writernim cultivated in a way the public’s expectations and of course, since she had another idea in her mind, she didn’t meet them in the end.
Because as I have written before, is it okay to idolize the past ?
If the past is idolized what solace can you find in your present time life?
Dear @OAL yes, you are right about what you said. HeeDo didn’t want to go through the same things that happened with her mother. The thing here is that Back Yi Jin was not Mrs. Shin. Also, the thing is that HeeDo was triggered by her own childhood trauma. So, she decided by herself to end their relationship. That means she also needed therapy, because in the end she is / was not happy.
This story pointed how important is be able to communicate with your loved one.
To be able to tell him, you know that thing that really hurts me and I want you to try and change it. I thought I could handle it but I cannot!
To be able to tell her, I am not okay, I am in complete loss by what I have witnessed that I have lost all hope. I cannot sleep without watching nightmares, I take sleeping pills that don’t do anything. Am I suffering from depressio?
I think I need help and I cannot ask it from you, because I am not in a healthy state of mind.
I agree with @Fern, we didn’t get closure.
The Adult Heedo lived with regrets, idolized her past and stayed in a 21 y.o. mindset because it was her comfort zone. The red car, the workshop name showed all this. We didn’t get an indication she was happy overall. That’s why it is a bittersweet ending.
Regarding the diary: I think the person who found it and it doesn’t matter who he or she is, wanted Back Yi Jin to discover that Na HeeDo was sorry how their relationship ended. He / She might believe that if YJ knew and talk it over again, they might change their decision.
I don’t like regrets. That’s why we are adults. We take responsibility for our actions. HeeDo half lived in the present, not enjoying her life she chose for herself. Hence, why I am not happy with the present timeline.
P.S. @Fern I didn’t write before about the diary. Was it someone else? 🙂
I watched Ep16 just to see what all the fuss was about 😂.
@LaurazZzz
“It was HD who decided to turn their relationship into a romantic one and it was also her who decided to end it. But I felt like both of them gave up too easily, after all their manifestations of love for each other. Well, that happens. It’s great that HD realized she can’t live a life with a person who’ll treat her like her mother did. But why do I feel sad for adult HD?”
Because writer nim trolled us for too long about the sweetness that was YJ and HD. 15 eps of it. It was her fault for doing this. 🙄 BUT I think we shouldn’t “feel sad” for adult HD. Because HD was not one to look back. For what it was worth, she made decisions and owned the consequences. And that’s adult. She resisted the urge to look too far back and wonder “what if”. She lived life NOW. But the actress who played adult HD did us no favours. I was often wondering what emotion she was trying to give us. So that may be the root of the problem in us trying to figure out if she was indeed living in regret or not?
“She mentions letting MinChae read her diary from the past so she can learn about the passions of friendships and love. What does that say about her relationship with MinChae’s father then? And why would MinChae be excited to read about her mother’s relationship with someone other than her father? It also appears that even her relationship with her friends did not last. If they are still good friends, MinChae would have known them.”
I didn’t watch that ep but I would think MC is young so just like a lot of the fan girls who were totally invested in the lead couple. She almost acts as their voice in the drama. I don’t think MC thoughts her mom and dad had a bad marriage. Nor did I think she was “shipping” BaekDo as some have mentioned in other forums. 🙄 She was just so invested and curious about their progress and story that she wanted to know the ending (like most). Thing was, writer nim gave her that opportunity to read her mom’s last diary in ep16 (and YJ’s entry) BUT…she opted NOT to read it. That’s the crux. MC was content with NOT knowing because how would knowing how it all ended help her in any way other than satisfy her curiosity? What did she know though? She knew that her mom married her dad Mr Kim and that was a fact. Knowing all the details about why her first love didn’t work out wouldn’t change a thing? To MC’s credit, she learnt to say “when”. Just like HD learnt to say “when” when it came to her relationship with YJ. MC wanted to write her own story now. Not live in some past story (which she had done all through the drama) in someone else’s timeline. I think that was the writer’s way of telling the viewers they we don’t need to know all the minutiae. Her point was made. Let go of the past (say your goodbyes well – no regrets, with thanks, acknowledging the part they played in shaping your present but leave it there – in the past. Don’t go digging up old flames to rekindle or expect old friends to stay exactly the same as the past) and live in the present. Whether HD was happily married to Mr Kim or not was moot. She married him and she stayed married to him. She lived with the consequences of her choices. She made her decision and moved on. Her one regret was not saying goodbye well to YJ. And the last diary resolved that in ep16. And they parted well in the end. Hence her big smile at the tunnel.
I get that the story is about learning and practicing. HD and YG gave their best to love a person and learnt when to let go. However, I am just not 100% convinced by the writer’s way of cancelling their love. I felt at the bus stop they still have so much love for each other! Is not wanting the hard way the YJ and HD way?
I have seen they overcame a lot of obstacles in the first 14 episodes:
1.YJ left for a while without a message, but HD still thought about him (and had a 2 weeks boyfriend). She always had faith in YJ that he was in a better place.
2.YJ waited for HD to grow up and protected her all along.
3.YJ convinced by HD to give their form of love a try.
4. they always believed and inspired each other. They have this unwavering faith.
The above in their early years almost put them on a true love trajectory. What faults they had in their love?
Just the events that happened in 1-2 episodes are harder for me to reconcile. Building on what @Cleo said – why some obstacles are not a problem, but some are? After their broke up, YJ still dreamt about her. (Who is not moved T_T). HD collapsed. If they are real people, would they miss each other so much and decided it is worth to overcome these new obstacles I learnt in ep 15 and 16:
1. YJ’s unwillingness to share pain and decision making
2. HD’s fear of dealing with YJ’s absence, caused by her mum
3. long distance relationship
4. and the ongoing theme of keeping the right distance
So where has their faith in each other gone?
Again, I am with @Cleo on this one. No one knows – have they tried to fix it? Or is the point of the story that we all have regrets that we didn’t fix?
I noted that HD’s husband is unnaturally not around like some of you have pointed out. I can’t help but think the absence of the husband is merely a plot device to keep us guessing. Why isn’t he around when his newly wedded wife announced retirement? Why the husband didn’t attend their daughter dance performances and gatherings? HD was sitting alone watching or socialising with other parents without the husband.
The questions I have above hold back my fondness of this show, however I enjoyed the romance acted out by KTR and NJH. They brought out so many heart fluttering moments. Without the hints the show consistently dropped (e.g daughter’s surname Kim, daughter not recognised YJ in the photo), it would have been hard not to be convinced that their love would be forever.
Hey @pm3 I tried to post a comment for 3 times. Hopefully it’s OK to post. Thanks! 🙂
When Kim Tae Ri was saying to the Writernim to change the ending:
https://twitter.com/imzeroclock/status/1510844467644928005?s=20&t=Jsyq1XDVMMWhxK_mNQjeMQ
@nrllee, thank you for those thoughts.
Yes, I think that’s the best way to think of this show then. A tribute to their youth and friendships. A tribute to a time when they still believed some things may last forever. A tribute to a first love that made them happy and carried them through life’s hardships at one point in their lives. A tribute to a past that stays in the past as a beautiful memory.
That’s true, the sweet moments that lasted until episode 15 made the breakup feel sudden. But thinking about it in this new perspective, the sweet moments were how the 25-year-old YJ and 21-year-old HD experienced that time in their lives. They were living in that blissful phase believing they’ll be together that New Year, the next New Year and many New Years after that.
To the last epilogue, the show kept with its “trolling” when it showed YJ (year 2021 maybe?) answering a security question to reset his password. The question asks “What is the name of your first love?” He types in “Na Hee Do” and his password successfully gets reset. We can hear YJ chuckle. He considers HD his first love despite having a couple of girlfriends before HD. But with a new perspective and so that I can move on from this show, I’ll interpret his chuckle to mean YJ also remembers his first love as a happy memory but will leave it there in the past.
It helps me (alleviate the emotional pain I feel!) to see this show as a coming of age story rather than a romance. BYJ was there to help NHD on her journey and vice-versa. They supported each other through the challenges of youth. And then they started growing up and growing apart. Plus BYJ had a tendency early on to run away when things got tough (e.g., when he went to the seaside and worked for his uncle) and not really communicate why. He applied to be a correspondent in NY without telling her–how could she even assume they had any kind of relationship at that point?
NHD was wise enough to know that he ultimately would not be a good partner for her because of this and because he–a journalist!–wasn’t good at communicating his inner struggles with her. I think she might have tried to tolerate it, for the sake of her love, especially since that is what she was used to growing up with her distant mom. But her mom had finally broken down and opened up to her at her dad’s burial site. That probably helped her to know that she wanted more.
I think you can look fondly back at a significant or first love, and still be in a happy marriage–it doesn’t detract from the current relationship but strengthens your sense of self, and also your idea of what love should and shouldn’t be like. Years later you still might have lingering regrets or what-ifs about a first love and need (more) closure–even if you’re fully with someone else. Such things don’t magically disappear when you say “I do.”
But, as I said earlier in this post, I still can’t understand why she named her workshop 2521. If it’s truly a homage to her first love it just seems too visible. How would she explain it to her husband or her daughter? “That was the year I was in love with BYJ…” Also it seems that she had forgotten a lot about that time, so it would be weird if there was a sign in her shop to mark it–wouldn’t the sign be a daily reminder? [Unless the sign signified the start of her adulthood, when she chose her path?]
The other thing that threw me off was when NHD was introduced as having a special relationship with BYJ, the anchor. I was hoping their relationship had been ongoing or something–but it turns out it’s probably just because he had mentioned that she was one of the athletes he had covered when he was starting out as a sports reporter.
Finally I think we have to be aware that the present day was filmed during the pandemic. That may be one reason NHD isn’t seen with her friends, and maybe why her (ex?) husband hadn’t come home in a while.
Hi @moonstar512, it says something that you’ll recommend this Show to your friends. I believe that watched through the right lenses and with the right expectations, this Show’s ending can be considered satisfactory, while the production was overall good.
I believe that the main issue we can take up with the production is that it didn’t make it clear that it was not a love story. It spent so much time on HD and YJ, that it seemed to be about them, as if they’d be the one-true pairing (OTP), but they weren’t. It should have covered the experiences of all the 5 friends more evenly. In the end, it seemed to be a coming of age drama of HD, and the rest we got to know incidentally, because they had some impact in her youth. So Show gives no priority to the happy endings or otherwise of anyone else. If it had been clear from the start that this was mainly HD’s story, the dissatisfaction might have been more subdued.
@grace, it’s good, isn’t it, to be the observer who can see clearly where things went wrong in the relationship. I agree that HD found it emotionally draining. Her journal said she felt emotionally exhausted. I guess it would have been nice to have been given an alternative ending, even if just an imaginary one… a ‘what if’ ending… like what if YJ had not been a reporter or hadn’t been sent to New York, etc. I believe a lot of fan-fiction can be written to tease out the possibilities. 🙂
@OldTimer thanks for your anecdote. A valuable ‘lesson’ in long-distance relationships. I absolutely loved the hug(s) between the girls as well.
@grace, yes, … with YJ applying for and getting the foreign correspondent position, even if he and HD had hung on together and gotten married, I’d have anticipated that they’d go their separate ways anyway. As HD pointed out… it was less messy/easier to separate before marriage rather than after.
Dear @Viva,
I agree with you. You brought up all the points that show exactly how Writernim messed up the script.
@Packmule3 already said it first “On Mental Gymnastics” thread.
Writernim spent 13 episodes showing how solid Yi Jin and HeeDo’s connection is. Then she spent one episode where she tried to undo what work she had done before that.
I don’t want to talk technically about how she used her material but at the same time I cannot stop it. I have written myself several stories and I know the rules. Tyey are very specific.
I have an idea in my head that I want to say to the world. I want to say how first love is magical and brilliant. I want to say that: yes, even in troubled times when times rob your dreams you can find someone in life that you can have a deep connection. It might end though, because of the circumstances or because we were not mature enough! Life is like that we come together and we can also fall apart!
The problem with 25-21 is the present timeline.
The story would be better told if they have omitted the adult Heedo and MinChae subplot. Why? Because the adult HeeDo actress couldn’t much the vibes the younger HeeDo (Kim Tae Ri) gave us.
They deliberately “milked” Kim MinChae’s subplot and everyone was trying to find who the husband is like in the Reply series!
Then the audience was watching adult HeeDo being impassive (?) about her life. If you read on MDL the reviews, the majority of them is talking about the adult HeeDo and if her role was needed (?) in the story.
I was in bliss watching the beach episode and then boom, reality sank in:
What is wrong with adult HeeDo? Why is she like that? Where is her Fire?
Was she happy or not? Did she have regrets or not?
Is she living in the present or not?
If the Writernim wanted her story to be fully accepted, they should have ended it in the funeral back in 20019. They could have met there even for 5 minutes, talk about their news, say what they didn’t say before and be okay with it. Closure. Period.
Overall, the writernim hasn’t mastered yet the ability to pace her story in a balanced way.
She dragged for too long building up their relationship that started as a solid friendship and companionship. Then she had to speed up how they fell in love and fell apart in just three episodes.
Lastly, the message of the show is not crystal clear.
Are we idolizing the past because we are living an awful present we chose to? We should then remember that there is always a way out…
I would expect the message to be: “When you are young everything seems possible. You can succeed even when the world is against you, find happiness and friendship or even love. Especially, the first love we all are very fond of and we always think with nostalgia.”
I am grateful that I watched this. I am grateful to Kim Tae Ri and Nam Joo Hyuk for giving flesh to those brilliant youngsters. I am grateful for the gang, especially Seung Wan.
I won’t forget though, how someone can mess up with a good story, because she didn’t / couldn’t kill her darlings.
@BethB, I think that it was explained that her husband was in quarantine early on, so maybe he was traveling for work. It struck me that NED’S childhood room was still intact and had not been made into a guest room. 8n the present day her mom no longer had to look like an anchor person and was presented v a ith a softer, natural look, allowing her to grow gray. She also is a better grandmother than she was a mother(but that is not unusual because there isn’t as much stress-unless grandma is the primary caregiver).
One thing that strikes me is what I think of as the school reunion effect. After a period of time, I believe that first loves, crushes look very different. BYJ would not attend NED’S reunion because he was four years ahead of her. She also would see him on TV. However, if there was a reunion of the winning fencing team he might have been there as the correspondents told the original story. Even being a public figure, BYJ would probably have changed, become cynical, worldly,vain-however that profession changes a person-and would no longer be the person NHD loved and needed then. Time has a way of putting things in perspective. See The Way We Were (the zstreisand/Redford movie). So upon thinking about this drama, I am much more comfortable with its logical ending.
I think NHD’s 2521 plaque may refer to the intense days of her teen aged friendships. Her relationship with YuRim was particularly significant then. We are conditioned to default to romance but friendship and their competitive rivalry are just as or more important. After all, there were so many fencing scenes-both in practice and competition, to signify the plaque.
We got to see how our group turned out but the voyeur in me would have liked a NHD BYJ reunion. (Logically they could have had ongoing contact given Mom’s and BYJ’s professional connection), so it c old have been NHD’s choice to completely cut ties.
This is pure conjecture but it’s been fun to do. Old American Lady (OAL)
@GB – I was toying with the idea of an alternate ending just like LA LA Land (beautiful montage of what-if) but it will be copying it too much. It did help with getting over the movie which I absolutely love. Seems like I’m a glutton for punishment. LOL! BTW, The break up and final letting go scenes of 25/21 were more gut-wrenching though since we invested in 15 hrs + for that.
Spotted: HD’s Orange sweatshirt says “Wellness” during their final goodbye scene.
@Viva – I agree with your points on what they endured prior even when apart but I guess it’s different when you are sending support as a friend vs as lovers, you have more “skin in the game” and assume more active responsibility. In 2009 news interview, they confirmed that they continue to support each other like in the past – it seems that is easier on them. Still, It’s a pinch in our hearts to hear them remember something from their past (YJ saying HD does not like personal questions in interviews; HD saying her left side looks better on camera) but they may just be fond references of the past.
@Cleo – thanks for the link on KTR Twitter! It must have been tough to know the end game and still act exuberantly on your first love like that. Or probably that’s why we got such passionate performance of pre break up is to compensate for it. They really made it so relatable and painful even for the audience.
@Cleopatra, HI, I hope all is well with you. Excellent points. The writer needed to tighten up the narrative. I don’t know if the writer wanted to give us red herrings. I can’t help but think about the narrative shift in HPL, except, at least the writer here did not succumb to fan opinion. Shooting of this drama ended before the finale.
I will now watch anything with Kim TaeRi and Bona. I like Nam Joo Hyuk, especially in Start Up, but he upped his game here. There was lots of pleasure watching their performance. For the performances alone, I’d recommend this drama.
My dear @Janey,
I wasn’t going to post this, but here is a comparative analysis a psychologist that helds a blog did for LaLaLaLand and Twenty Five, Twenty One. It is an interesting read:
https://tatooine-rainstorm.tumblr.com/post/680584025104154624/2521-vs-la-la-land-and-why-it-hurts-so-dang-much
Regarding Kim Tae Ri, I think it is logical for her to ask something like this. She build HeeDo from scratch as Nam Joo Hyuk did the same for Back Yi Jin. She resonated with her.
My dear @OAL!
Hello there! How are you? I am okay, a bit tired because yesterday I had a full and productive day! I think that the writernim is inexperience. That’s why she didn’t close those loose ends. I don’t know if they have asked her to add them and she didn’t polish her material or she didn’t expect the show to be so well loved by the audience that would question her choices!
I saw Nam Joo Hyuk on The Bride of Habaek when I started watching K-Dramas. I thought what a lovely boy who can really act! I saw next “Start Up” and lately “Strong Woman Do Bong Soo” he was amazing there. You need to see his facial ministrations! I admired him for those!
He is very talented with a boyish way and bohemian attitude!
I haven’t watched Mr. Sunshine yet. It is my mother’s favorite kdrama. I know that it has angst and she liked it that much that she was thinking about it after a long time she watched it. After TFTO, I will definitely watch Kim TaeRi’s The Handmaiden as well.
I agree with you about the performances! I would like to add in the mix Lee Joo-Myoung who nailed it as Ji Seung-Wan. She stood by her ethics and values and I think she was a perfect female empowerment example!
I have thought a lot about my experience watching 25-21. I thought the show was the best kdrama I have ever watched until around the middle of this series. At first I was put off by the inaccurate description of when they fall in love. I had a framework in my head that wasn’t matching with the show and that caused some dissonance. When I learned that the male lead had major input into the character being a warm man rather than a tsundere I started to get a little nervous. I wondered if the writer would alter her course based on a very different male character. The romance was so strong I wonder if it was drawn out and then the ending rushed because of that. I read that Kim Taeri had asked the writer to change the ending, which I took to mean being more consistent with the characters not necessarily that they be together in the end. It almost feels like there were two shows- one show based on the strength of the leads acting and connection and the other the originally intended ending which did not fit.
I did not think the framing of the show worked, a large part of that may have been due to what I think is a casting mistake in choosing a different actress for the mature he do. My impression of he do was that she is not happy in the present timeline. I particularly noted the scene where her and her mother hold hands after their health check-up as though all they have is each other. I think the mature hido has lost more than simply The Starry Eyes of Youth. She seems depressed in the present timeline. Although I did not watch the last few episodes because I was away, if she really did not remember her time with Yejin very clearly that does not match up with how people would remember such an intense early relationship which included sexual Awakening.
I have not yet been happy watching a show as it happens except for the red sleeve and now business proposal. My take away from this show is how great an actress Kim Taeri is and how I was motivated to undertake watching Mr. Sunshine which I had read was a difficult watch. I guess now I am more familiar with kdramas, particularly the actors, which helps me follow all the multiple characters and I am super enjoying it. Another take away for most of us is how we would like to have Yejin as our boyfriend.
I feel badly being so critical. But the higher the
expectations the harder the fall.
I have just started commenting on these kind of website / blog post. I am thinking this website may be a good fit for me.
@Cleopatra, I was prepared for the break-up by all of the hints, but as the blog writer in your link said, it all happened so rapidly after all of the build up.
My qualms with the script are that I can’t see that HD’s life was actually better after the break-up. I see her in a serene state that still makes no sense to me after knowing her emotional personality. Why did she name her workshop 2521? If she denies the memory of the beach trip, why does she let her daughter rummage though her private emotional past, even to the point of doing research on YJ? Is she content in a marriage without her partner present? She seems to have a nice life but has lost all of the highs and lows. I neither saw her cry nor laugh in the current era. It doesn’t fit her. If I had seen her really have a good laugh I could have thought ‘This is fine.’ A few seconds of present day joy would have sufficed.
Hey my dear @Fern!
I agree. I was expecting them to break up as well. As I wrote above, answering to @Viva, the Writernim didn’t have a good pace. She didn’t organize her material in order to have cohesion.
She was so focused to justify the glorious days for 13 episodes that the remaining episodes were not enough for the audience to mourn the unevitable.
That’s why I said that the present timeline shouldn’t existed at all.
Focus in the 1999-2009 timeline and don’t introduce to the viewers anything about Heedo’s current predicament. If we just knew that she got married and had a daughter, it would be easier for the viewers to believe she moved on.
I also agree with you that the adult HeeDo was totally different from young HeeDo. Another problem who they didn’t pay attention to. I can relate with everything you are saying, because we have discussed about it in depth after the beach episode. I remember asking you guys, If something is wrong with Adult HeeDo and where is her Fire? That’s why I wrote yesterday after watching the finale, that her adult portrayal was a false / a mirage.
When something doesn’t add up to the story you are writing, you need to edit it or erase it. That’s why I wrote the writernim didn’t kill her darlings. She wanted everything she thought that would work when some didn’t in the end, because she didn’t give closure to the OTP.
Instead, we got in high speed that Yi Jin got selfish and hurt her because he took that NY job after 9/11 and HeeDo couldn’t take any longer his absence because the whole situation triggered her childhood drama her absent mom caused. Which was unexpected based on what we have seen so far. When it takes you so long to build up that magnificent jenga tower, as the writer in the article said, the free fall without a parachute was too rushed. The ruins around you, can leave you in vertigo.
@Cleopatra, for me another thing that was very sad to me was that the distance and lack of communication didn’t destroy the love in this story. Their break-up wasn’t due to the small erosions that turn love from fire to warm to ashes. There were no 3rd parties, either. I never had the feeling that either person was ready to leave because the love had died, if you know what I mean. That’s the saddest part for me.
I wonder if the writer was indicating that it was their past passion and their emotional bond that made their relationship end, compared to the rather steadfast and plain love that YR and Moon Ji-ong had for each other? Did the other two have a more mature type of love or were their expectations lower somehow – and was it similar to what HD eventually found with Kim X? I wonder…
Hi @Fern and @Cleopatra, your insights are sooo good. I also want to know who made the decision to recast the actress playing HeeDo. The change is jarring. They don’t match. There is not one iota of young woman HeeDo left.. It’s almost as if HeeDo has become a different person apart from her ties via furniture to her late father. Even given the plot points that I tried to excuse before, it makes no sense. They rely on the audience to suspend disbelief. I hate to say this but in a way they killed off HeeDo, not YJ. For me it would be interesting to find out why that decision was made.
PS LeeShin (of the Hospital Playlist series) should take a look at this and learn. Having a sad ending like this means the chatter continues far longer than a “happy ending”. 😂. At least the writing was consistent. Writer didn’t bow to the actor’s or public’s whims when it came to what she wanted to deliver. She took a bold step to go against the grain.
Dear agapimeni @Cleo – what an insightful article! Thank you for sharing. I feel a bit better but not much. LOL! Still in grieving period although I knew the trajectory. It’s as if they were our friends who broke up and we feel so bad for them.
@AOL – that’s one of the downsides for me is casting a different HD in the present. She did not add value but instead made us question her current state due her bland acting.
@Nrllee – I agree! for what it’s worth, I appreciate the writer staying in her lane and did not waver. They could have tighten the messaging and paced the story bwtter but other than that, it was good. It was memorable and the performance of the leads added a lot of value to the final outcome and the lingering effect.
@nrllee, @Janey. I, (too), liked that Writer, PD, everyone involved, committed to the unpopular route that had been chosen from the beginning, until the bitter end. It’s not easy to go off independently, knowing that many will be upset.
Yes… ‘lingering’ … I find that it conversely gave us a more powerful tale with longer lasting impact, because it dared to be different, rather than if it had gone the usual way.
Kalimera Ladies,
@nrllee I don’t think that most of us who continue to talk about the sad ending are against HeeDo and Yi Jin breaking up.
For myself, the reason I am frustrated it is HOW the Writernim did it.
I can resonate with @Viva, @Fern and @Janey feeling numb or sad or having questions that were unaswered and that left them hanging in mid air.
I can distance myself and take a step back and look at the writing material. Because the narrative and the message should be crystal clear. It is essential in storytelling to not make people feel confused.
Her script isn’t perfect. If I know that, she knows it as well. It has issues that we overpassed in the beginning because of the nostalgia vibes and how HeeDo and Yi Jin dynamics were progressing. Because they – the cast – made this story memorable for us.
As for the adult Heedo here is what NJH said to KTR about adulthood and she shared with the audience in an interview:
“She (KTR) continued, “But Nam Joo Hyuk told me this a lot. He told me, ‘People don’t change a lot just because they get older,’ and I think that’s true. While a lot of things have probably changed since I was younger, I don’t think the big things have changed.”
Credit: https://www.soompi.com/article/1520621wpp/kim-tae-ri-shares-her-thoughts-on-twenty-five-twenty-one-finale-playing-a-student-role-in-her-30s-working-with-nam-joo-hyuk-and-more
@Fern, @OAL, @Janey I will continue to believe that the adult Heedo made a lot of
damage in the story, that’s why I find her usage and the 2022 timeline unnecessary!
I am talking technically speaking here. If they couldn’t use Kim Tae Ri as the adult HeeDo they shouldn’t use another actress at all. Dear @OAL I don’t think we will ever find oud who decided about the recast. It doesn’t matter anyway.
I have written all I wanted to say and I will now stop talking about this. Afterall, it is not my work of fiction, I was not responsible for it and I don’t have to understand what I did wrong in this script in order my next one to be better.
@Cleo I don’t mean the discussion here. If you go to any of the other forums or social media you will see how disgruntled the vast majority of viewers are. Their arguments are not sound. Unlike here. They can’t accept the break up at all. The only conclusion they will accept is for HD and YJ to end up together.
@nrllee,
Thank you for clarifying! That is TvN’s doing and their marketing regarding 25-21.
They trolled the public repeatedly on SNS with whom is Min Chae’s father?
Are HeeDo and YiJin really the endgame?
Those silly questions made those people going into theories and then more theories to back up their logic! I don’t blame them for being unreasonable. You reap what you sow.
It was the Writernim’s job and the Director’s job to show them otherwise.
They also didn’t. They should point more effectively those little details that mattered for Writernim’s desired outcome. She didn’t.
So, we have the following categories and I have done my research, as well:
1. There are those who refuse the ending, because they wanted the OTP as endgame. They feel robbed!
2. There are those who can accept it, but they would like a proper closure.
3. There are those who cannot accept it, because the break up reason was too rushed and out of the blue.
They are those who don’t understand why the adult Heedo was like that vs her younger self. Add them to #2 or #3 subcategories.
And 4. there are those who claim they are superior from all the others above (!) and they have understood the message the Writernim wanted to portray and don’t understand why the rest are whining for.
@Cleo. I think the advantage (or disadvantage, depending on how you look at it) is that I stopped watching after Ep8. When it became clear to me that adult HD had moved on and married Mr Kim, and the rest of the drama seemed hellbent on portraying the love between HD and YJ. It was a major troll and I didn’t want to invest any more time in the trolling. But I did decide to watch Ep16 just to see how the writer ended it. Was it believable? No. Because she trolled for so long. And left so many questions unanswered. But I did try to figure out what message she was trying to get across. The dialogue had words of wisdom in there so she wasn’t just writing a love story. With what I did watch and reading @GB’s transcripts and notes, I tried to formulate a cohesive message for myself. Not everyone will have the same opinion. Did she deliver that message well? No. Because I had to really struggle to make one up in my mind from what she had given us 😂. But because I never got too deep into their relationship, I can walk away more readily (no tears).
@Nrllee,
I don’t know if I have to congratulate you for dropping this in Episode 8 or tell you to continue watching up until Episode 13.
Of course the Writernim had good ideas and things to say as well! The thing is that she didn’t polish the message she wanted to portray pretty well, leaving people hanging and wondering about the adult HeeDo.
At least on B.O.D. we can understand each other perfectly and if a misunderstanding happens once in a while, we deal with it with finesse!
@Cleopatra, thank you for outlining the various schools of thoughts on how people accept the outcome on this drama. Because I frequent here, and my mutuals are mostly rational analytical types, I get mostly #2 or #3 types coming across my tl. It really helps to know what type you are dealing with before responding to their comments.
Most everyone I see on my tl wasn’t surprised that they broke up. Almost all of them said they told us that upfront. Some expressed disappointment, but almost everyone was resigned to the fact that it was in the cards. For them, though, they were irritated at the resolution’s pacing and the red herrings or irrelevant plot points thrown in their path that went nowhere (and looking back, don’t make sense why they were added to the storyline in the first place other than to throw off the viewer).
If we just look at Minchae’s perspective, I think we will see more clarity on why HD allowed her to read the diaries. Minchae quit because winning is everything to her but HD does not relate to her ((or so she thinks) because she is a top notch national athlete. HD’s way of relating to her is thru her diaries which chronicled her ups and downs as an athlete and growth as a person as well as the people who played a part in her life then. I would like to think that her story with Yurim was the key hilite of the diaries that she wants her daughter to understand. That was really special. Minchae has an idea that her mom had an ex, she thought “the kid” was the ex bf but it was about Yurim.
As she was reading it, she came across the first love story of her mom. And like a 3rd party viewer like us, she was also fascinated by that. she picked up how YJ supported her mom in the tough times. It seems she was confident of her parents’ relationship (hence I assume HD is happy or content with her life) that she viewed it as a past story. In the end, she did not even need to read the last diary and have closure. Her closure was the lessons she picked up on her mom’s coming of age story and live her youth well with the ups and downs. Have friends, have passion, fall in love, break up and move on.
I am taking a cue from Minchae’s point of view. She was used a story device for a reason – maybe her name was not intended to be a mystery and that just got blown out of proportion and took a life of its own. Or maybe it was intentional to fan the interest and so it was successful in that as well.
@Janey – thanks for your take on this. I agree–Minchae was there for a reason. In fact, the final words in the show are from NHD who says she wants Minchae to experience all the joys and challenges she felt when she was young. She is wistful when she says she thought that time would last forever. But I don’t think this means that she is depressed. I think she is content with her life, and fully appreciates having this final closure with BYJ.
Now that I have more distance from the show I think that NHD’s adult life shows that she wants to now be like her father–not just in furniture making, but in being there for her daughter and devoting herself to raising her well, something she herself wasn’t afforded after his death. I think we never see the husband because this is really about NHD when she was young and not a middle-aged adult, and about how Minchae comes to see her and her life, not her parents or parents’ marriage.
@BethB and @Janey, wow-this makes so much sense. I just wish the writer had tightened the narrative so we didn’t have to struggle with the ending. I liked most of the drama very much because it elicited s o many emotions and had such wonderful characters portrayed by talented actors. They really made us work for this understanding.
@OAL, @BethB, @Janey
I also feel that the intent was different from what we normally expect in a kdrama with first loves. I can see the points of view of various Bitches here. Everyone has a point and their emotional responses based on expectations were valid.
I believe that this new Writer, the experienced PD who seems to be experimenting, and naughty TvN who likes to troll, ended up making a perfectly lovely show, an object of great contention. It could be also that the objective was to instigate all that contention, so that the Show does not just die down in sweet hearts and rainbows.
I applaud the Show for ‘sticking with its guns,’ however I also find fault with it for it’s unevenness in focus. While I loved the visuals, the mise-en-scène, the dialogue, the funny and the earnest messages, I also note that clarity was not provided as to the true intent of the Show.
We continue therefore to guess at the intent.
I agree that having modern day Min Chae was a plot device, and she should have been a very important character, but her role was too peripheral. Her importance as the main audience who was to be ‘convinced’ was somehow not highlighted, except by-the-way, in the last few episodes. We should have been brought into more of Min Chae’s world to feel with her as she feels with her mum in her youth.
Perhaps it was to be a tale of first loves… but first loves do not equate with only romantic love. Hee Do also loved her father first, then YR, then YJ. (I might say YJ’s first love was his family, but again there was so little offered on this except in bit and pieces.)
We have been programmed to think that kdramas and lovers mean a happy romance. And the way this Show was executed, played on this ‘programming’, only to upset the apple cart. It was a risky and daring move. Whether it ultimately earns this Writer-PD duo accolades or problems in later work, remains to be seen.
Kalimera Ladies!
@Skayt, you are welcome. I prefer not to write on other fora. Mostly because people cannot accept that someone else might disagree with them.
You are right, we were through with bits and bytes that had nothing to do with the main plot and that is a problem that has to do with the present timeline as well.
@Janey, @BethB, @OAL and @GB Unnie, Minchae’s plot was not well written. I still remember the question @GB unnie did some threads ago:
The story in the past is the story MinChae is currently reading in her mother’s diaries
OR
the audience is watching what happened exactly in the past?
I then answered that it was the latter and some posters agreed with me.
Why?
Because Seung Wan’s arc with quitting school because of school violence shouldn’t be showed to the viewers the way it was showed to us.
We saw WHAT Seung Wan felt about it and this is something that only SW could possibly knew about along with her own mother who was there for her.
Even if she told her friends, HeeDo wouldn’t be able to write it down that good. It was HeeDo’s practice diary after all.
MinChae’s plot device was to learn all those things you said @Janey. But it was not successful. I agree with @GB Unnie into that one. They introduced her and then made her too peripheral.
For example: Why did they show to us that Mama Shin and HeeDo went together in the Hospital to take a check up? What was the usage? That their relationship changed and MinChae had to see that? It had zero value to the story because it was a loose end. People got worried that one of them was sick!
It would be more effective to show us that they had taken the test. The results showed that they were healthy indeed. So, we would have got a scene with happiness and being grateful that everything was okay and Mama Shin and HeeDo would stay close to each other for a very long time and yes, MinChae witnessed that.
In the first case we have a puzzled MinChae and in a second one a more calmed one.
Perspective is important.
@GB Unnie, I am not programmed to see stories with a happy romance. Ι am a picky viewer and reader. Since I enjoy reading literature or watching stories overall.
I want to understand what I am seeing is not hanging in mid air. Make me love the characters or even dislike them, but give me a solid reason to do so.
Hello, I am new here and have really appreciated the quality of the discussion. I posted a comment about this show before I had a good idea about how this discussion group works. I would like to add a thought I have not seen elsewhere that just dawned on me. I enjoyed this show so much that I want to u derstand why it soured on me. I have begun to wonder if the 2021 covid framing was superimposed on a show that may have been already conceived and somewhat written. This, along with NJH’s significant change to the MLS character, may have contributed to the disjoints in the narrative. I wonder if writernim was not able to adjust the script to fit how the show was evolving. I think if I understand better I may be able to go back and watch the last episodes in more than a cursory way.
Dear @Mon mor,
Welcome on B.O.D. as it seems your comment was lost in the conversation we had above. Feel free to write your thoughts! 🙂
@Mon Mor,
Welcome to the blog.
Let me give credit to the wonderful mainstays we have on the blog:
Growing_Beautifully, Cleopatra, Viva, nrllee, Fern, grace, Janey, OldAmericanLady, Skayt, Snowflower, moonstar512, BethB, Welmaris, and the newcomers like LaurazZZz, haengbog, OldTimer, and Chocoflip
for the “quality of the discussion” that you just mentioned. They assert their opinions sensibly, objectively. Thank you, BoD team!
Note to lurkers:
I occasionally monitor posts, esp those by new posters who may not know my “style.” I don’t like unnecessary aggression and/or emotional outbursts. It’s okay to rant about the show. I get that there’s just and reasonable cause for the complaints arising from the failure of both parties, i.e., the screenwriter and the viewers, to agree on what constitutes a consistent and organic ending.
However…
none of us here is a clinical therapist experienced in anger management. 🙂 If you’re angry about the show, don’t take it out on us. Compose not only your thoughts when writing your points down, but also your emotions.
To ensure everybody’s reading pleasure, I’ve put in place a few rant words that will automatically send posts to “needs moderation” inbox. I’ll remove them when things calm down.
Now, where was I? 🤔
Ah!
I’m doubt that Covid had a big impact on the show, @mon mor.
As for NJH’s request for changes in his character, I think the writer’s willingness to alter the character only goes to show that the endgame (i.e., dissolution of the relationship) is the ONLY non-negotiable element in the plot. She is NOT going to change the endgame. Didn’t the actress Kim Taeri ask her?
It didn’t matter to the writer that YiJin’s character is tsundere, sensitive, alpha or beta in the beginning. The only thing that she required was that they fell in love. Their first love is necessary in order for them to break up in Episode 16.
Everything that happened from Ep 1 to 15, like
the diary passages,
the hints about Kim Minchae’s dad, and
the ambiguity of Heedo’s marital status,
the beach excursion,
the tunnel encounters,
the kiss,
the tears,
the running around to save Heedo,
the promise to support each other,
the longing looks for each other,
the fountain play,
the summer of loving…
All these nostalgic, romantic moments were designed to tighten the emotional screws so the pain of the breakup will be more visceral. And it worked, didn’t it? It worked like a charm.
The breakup = non-variable/non-negotiable element = plot twist I’ve been waiting for = denouement
In fact, the title itself refers to the breakup. It touts the demise of her first love.
In my opinion, this writer anticipated the backlash. I wouldn’t be surprised if she revels in it. There’s no doubt that she knew what she was doing. For one, this drama is pre-produced. For another, from the onset, there was something dubious about their method of story-telling. In my First Impressions, I wrote that there was a conscious effort to misinform and deceive the viewers. I said it in reference to the mysterious “Injeolmi” being hyped up by the writer and director as YiJin. But as it turns out, that was the strategy all along.
My verdict: The writer purposely obfuscated the breakup so viewers would stick around till the end to see the breakup happen. She may effectively put people through her emotional wringers, but I generally don’t like to see people being made fools of.
Thank you so much @pkml3 for your opinion. Yes, I remember that you pointed out the deception over who Injeolmi was. I believe many of us knew that much was deliberately left out/hidden so that we’d be kept guessing. At the same time, we knew that there were contradictory clues throughout.
I recall saying that from the beginning we knew that the couple would not end up as the OTP, because the Show uses the title of a sad song, of longing for someone who is gone. The biggest ‘facts’ were Min Chae’s surname and her not knowing what YJ looked like.
So it was despite all indications to the contrary (that it would work out), that we watched a love story unfold, and we were to watch it knowing that it was not going to work out. I agree that Writer wanted to make it look like a relationship that was so desirable for us, viewers, that we’d be invested in it. We were meant to be heart-broken over a love that we knew never did succeed.
On the one hand, ‘head-wise’, I feel that we went into it knowing that Writer-nim had not ‘lied’. If we went in wanting to enjoy the ‘feels’ of a lovely friendship that became a romance and then to find out how and why it went wrong, we’d be sad, but be able to let it go at that.
On the other hand, I understand that ‘heart-wise’, emotionally, we, viewers would feel that so much emphasis had been placed on the youthful relationship, it seemed unthinkable that HD and YJ would not end up together … and so we’d feel that we’d been played.
I agree that Writer/PD ie those who made the decisions, probably knew what the backlash would be, but they went for it anyway. I mentioned above that the intent/message was not clear, however because of this, we could and we did conjecture: with furrowed brow, with chagrin, or even with much enjoyment throughout the Show. THAT may have been Show’s intent. Again, until the Show-makers tell us so, we can only guess.
Might Show have also intended to rouse the ire of viewers by trolling us all? Also highly probable.
If nothing else, it made this Show memorable. And THAT, too, is a possible intention and reason for why the Show is the way it is.
Personally, I enjoyed it for what it was worth, knowing what I was in for. I was, indeed, heart-broken too. However, now we have this experience under our belts, we will watch every new Show with an eagle eye, to catch the signs of trolling at work. We can, of course, still decide if we wish to risk being trolled or not, and how we will react to that.
@packmule3, What you described was a huge mindF(expletive deleted). It also is a primer for manipulation couched in quality TV. Not nice. Writer/PD.
The change of actress in the female lead part also was disconcerting. The problem is that we saw no vestige of young HeeDo in our adult. The saying that nature abhors a vacuum applies here-thus the explanation that we’re looking at her from daughter’s pov. Mental gymnastics.
@mon mor, your point re: NJH’s character adjustment causing disjoints in the narrative is something I’ve wondered as well. Now, we believed the endgame was the breakup, and that it was the plan from the beginning. But did those character changes affect how we view the red herrings, oddball happenings (things that just did not make sense or add up), etc.? Did a decision to alter Yijin’s actions or words reframe another plot point differently?
I haven’t walked through every narrative occurrence, and it’s a working theory at this point until I do. I suspect the end result will be plain ol’ sloppy writing. Something got added without a care as to the larger picture, ie, it served the plot at the moment.) We’ve all pointed out just plain odd stuff that doesn’t make sense in any context, or red herrings that got dragged across the path and forgotten (or that worked counter to the plot), but I suspect very little of it has to do with NJH’s acting choice. Again, the analyst in me wants to go through and highlight everything that doesn’t make sense and find its cause.
Welcome to BoD, @Mon Mor!!!
I agree with @PM3 that for the writer, the ending was non-negotiable. NJH changing his depiction of BYJ into a warm and amiable guy, in my opinion actually added more vigor for the HEA shippers, probably to the delight of the writer. That’s why it was harder to let go, theories to make them end game went haywire and crazy because YJ and HD characterization made them such a compelling couple.
I still enjoyed the show despite the ministrations of the writer. I find that BoD folks can distance ourselves and objectively view the script, style, red herrings and balance it with the “feels”. So I always like the discussions here. Like @Cleo, this is the only site that I am comfortable to write and share my thoughts.
@PM3, the full OST has dropped so I will add the remaining songs in OST thread. Hopefully I will have time. Thanks again for hosting us!
Hello @mon mor, happy to welcome you to BOD. When I first discovered kdramas 3 years ago (yes, late to the party LOL), I followed recommendations on many blogs so I watched Descendants of the Sun, Secret Garden, and The Heirs but looking at the others on the list, I could not make myself watch a love story of an alien and a celebrity, nor one of a mermaid and a con artist. I also wondered why a story of four rich brats and a poor, naive girl can be so high on this list. Then came Memories of the Alhambra and I found BOD. I cannot count how many light-bulb moments I’ve had reading @packmule3’s posts and the other BODers’s comments. I started posting on the blog only recently because it’s a bit hard for me to express myself and I watch only one or two kdramas at a time. But I regularly read posts and comments, even those about dramas I do not watch. For me, it’s been a source of not only understanding about kdrama narratives but life lessons as well.
Yes, the writer and the show’s intention was to keep the break-up vague until the last episode to string us along. If it was made certain earlier, I’m sure more viewers would have stopped watching. It did work because many had their hopes up until the last episode (including me against my better judgment).
@GB, your comments about the show’s intentions are true. The show’s unclear intentions made for more chatter about the show, days after it ended. If the show found a way to make HD and YJ end up together, would it have been more memorable or more talked about? We’d never know but as you say, the experience will make us (the “us” who have not realized it earlier) more analytical of a show’s intentions.
Thanks, @Janey! In case, I don’t see it, just tag me on any thread that I’m currently in.
A lurker also wanted to know “the backsound song of episode 4 where hee do fix the fencing outfit of yijin.”
Do you know what that is? Thanks. 💐
Part of the joy of kdrama/any drama watching, is having a community to chat with or listen to, to bounce ideas of/against and who educates, even as we educate. We come from all our walks of life, with different mindsets, customs, wants (or needs) and expectations, and we all descend upon a particular drama to read, exclaim or thrash it out like true Bitches, contributing to the richness of a drama watch.
As always, I am grateful to @pkml3 for having drawn in and protected a group of worthy Bitches, while giving us the space to bitch.
And bitch a bunch, we do, when it comes to a Show as ‘controversial’ as this one. It’s been frustrating, and/or fun, but it has also been rich.
@Laura zZZz, it’s okay to ‘play into the hands’ of the Show makers, wondering if they will still outwit us, as long as we know it is a gamble. At the end, even if we (invariably) lose, we know we took the plunge for the heck of it, instead of being wishy-washy on the fence. What we gain is the fun of the process as we tease out every clue with good company, to try to get it to point our way LOL. We just make sure we don’t place money on it or become problem gamblers!
@Janey, @Mon mor, what you say made me chuckle. Writer-nim may have had in mind a tsundere-type ML whom viewers wouldn’t mind that HD broke up with, but NJH changed the complexion of the character so much, that even in spite of herself, Writer may have found it impossible to reign in the desires/expectations for a happy-ever-after. I’m not sure she was delighted, but I’m sure that since it got the ratings up so well, she couldn’t actually be displeased!
@Janey, thanks for the OSTs!!!
LOL, @Skayt. It sounds like you’re going to do a meticulous re-watch, taking minute notes along the way.
Just a little note from @WEnchanteur who dabbles in script-writing… it may not always be the case of lazy writing. Sometimes the characters take on a life of their own and a more logical flow changes the original. Writers do try to go back to ‘close the gaps’ … but being imperfect human beings and subject to time constraints, some ‘holes’ remain.
In the course of creative work, an original concept may change along the way, and the way of getting to the end too may change several times.
@OAL, I feel that every Show, every well told story, every art form that elicits our emotional response, is bound to be ‘manipulative/manipulating’ in some way. We may differentiate between being manipulating in a ‘bad’ way ie without respect for the viewer… or in a ‘good’ way where a good tale is told with a proper beginning, middle and end that satisfies.
However I feel that even the value of ‘good’ and ‘bad’ is open to debate. What the Writer set out to do, might really have been to give the viewers a good time. We were given the chance to wade through clues, question hidden info, puzzle ourselves over the weird present time events. While I’m guessing the trolling was deliberate,… it might not have been ill-intentioned. The balance of focus however was out of whack, so much so that viewership emotions went high and expectations took the straight path. If Show had not been pre-produced, who’s to know that it might not have tried to pander to popular demand and gone down that straight path as well. However it was a completed series and the end was a twist.
Cue howls of dismay. LOL.
I do agree that there are big unfilled gaps that mar the enjoyment. We are given insufficient info about the time between 2009 (or even 2002) and 2021. Those 12 (19) years had HD grow into fuller adulthood/maturity and change, but we are not privy to why.
My thought on the consistency of Show was simply that what it wanted to tell it told, what it wanted to hide it hid until the bitter end. No compromises, especially with a completed series. Perhaps the events along the trajectory of HD’s life was not ever in the Writer’s script. A big failing indeed for a writer, but then, one makes mistakes. Show’s aim was only to show us Points ABCDE and then Point Z, and so it was.
In terms of character development, aside from the biggie of the main character having had a lobotomy, LOL, it seems that everyone else we were introduced to remained consistent and grew as expected. That being said however, I look back on myself in my youth, and consider that I, too in certain areas, may appear to have had a lobotomy of some kind.
@Cleo, I appreciate your technical take on the writing. So much that could be improved. So much clarity that could have been offered. Unlike the past shows where we could wax lyrical about scenes, we find ourselves puzzled and grumbling. I will read more of your thoughts on Grid… I watched it once through but have no time to think about it.
Thanks to all Bitches for a rich and interesting watch. Read you later! 🙂
@GB, Thank you for the succinct discussion of the current comments. You had me at lobotomy.we’ll never know the true intention of the writer or whether it was prompted bt NJH’s performance. Maybe at some time in the future we’ll get a Making Of documentary on and even then.wema to not be get the truth.It’s all about the mystique in if this particular drama. In the end I think this drama will be remembered and will receive many accolades.it had ratings and he it viewers in the gut.
@GB thank you for adding in @WEnchanteur’s notes. That’s a really interesting insight into scriptwriting. I do imagine that details can get away from them in the production of a drama. It would be interesting to know what actually happened.
Just today, there was a tweet making the rounds where someone was upset that the couple broke up and they called it “selfish artistry.” Aside from people wondering what that phrase meant, I’ve also seen tweets calling the breakup “lazy writing.” Not the details leading up it, but the breakup itself, the fact that the couple broke up at all. If I’m being completely honest, it seems that people who are upset are putting a lot of labels on the writer or odd labels on the writing, which doesn’t seem fair. You can call the writing a lot of things, and point out inconsistencies, etc., but getting upset bc it didn’t turn out the way you wanted and then slapping labels on the drama doesn’t seem correct.
@Skayt,
To be brutally honest, I say this writer/director combo does NOT deserve sympathy from the backlash they’re receiving from these disgruntled fans. They deserve the hue and cry.
Look: the drama was pre-produced. At the very least, that meant:
a. They APPROVED of the ending.
b. They had TIME to edit the ending if they wanted to.
But, despite the urging of their LEAD actress to revise the ending, the writer went ahead with it. So… (shrugs) she reaps what she sows.
Come on now. This is the writer who created “Search: WWW,” right? She knows about mediaplay, creating a buzz, and rating systems work. She’s no neophyte on viewer manipulation for a desired outcome.
She manipulated these fans to root for her main leads by dangling the carrot of a HEA till Episode 16.
And sure, writing script requires delicacy and nuance but it’s no brain surgery nor rocket science. All the writer had to do to dispel these crazy theories was insert a pithy dialogue between Adult Heedo and either her mom or daughter to end all speculations of Mr. Kim
Instead of that scene with the ballet clothes being gifted to Minchae, she could’ve written this phone conversation, like this:
Adult Heedo: Yeobo? Why are you calling? Are you okay? (pause) Jinjja? Our Minchae would be thrilled to hear that. She’s growing up to incorrigible like you, Kim Wooshik-ssi. (pause) Okay! See you in two weeks. Oppa, saranghae!
THE END.
The Mystery Game would’ve been over by then.
But nope. This writer dragged it till Episode 16.
In the same way, I told you all that we couldn’t do mental gymnastics about Heedo’s Dad, we can’t do mental gymnastics either about this writer’s clear intention to manipulate her audience. Episode 16 speaks for itself.
Tough for her if she gets called out for “selfish artistry” and “lazy writing” on twitter. That’s the kind of viewers she was largely appealing to when she created this makjang: the ones who went for the “feels” and couldn’t care less if the plot had inconsistencies. When the “feels” failed them, they turned on her.
You know that I have a low tolerance for hysterical fangirls. But if “selfish artistry” and “lazy writing” are all they’re pounding this writer for, then she got lucky. I have even lower tolerance for writers who “whore” their craft for “feels” and ratings.
@packmule3, you know my ambivalence about this drama. Nevertheless, I heartily agree with your comments. I am a follower of actors and am starting to learn more about writers and PDs so I defer to your extAaron! knowledge of these k drama creatirs..
I honestly like a good makjang, especially the ones that are over the top like Love ft. Marriage and Divorce that now has characters being possessed by ghosts. I admit that there is no accounting for my taste. But 2521 which purports to be a quality production is really not a good makjang nor a quality drama. Whatever good will it might have engendered was ruined by its failure to expand the narrative to include the important gaps in our leads’ lives. It’s not up to us to fill in these gaps.As you so expertly showed @packmule3, all that was required is a few lines of dialogue here and there. Those lines would not take up that much time and it is not unheard of to have extended episodes in K Dramas(see our favorite(place italics here-HPL and HPL2).Aargh!
I’m transferring @Welmaris’ post over here. –pm3
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When I finished Episode 16 of 2521, I felt let down. The show ended with a whimper, not a bang. Effort was made to happily finish the story arcs for YuRim, Ji Woong, Seung Wan, and even Min Chae, but too many issues were left hanging with Hee Do and Yi Jin.
In real life, it isn’t unusual for people to end a first love and marry someone else. Does that mean settling? I sure hope not. Ideally marriage should be entered into with love and commitment. I hope that was the case with Hee Do, but we’ll never know because Writernim didn’t show us.
The faintest of hints we get from Writernim about Hee Do’s relationship with her husband don’t add up to a positive picture. We see recent newlywed Hee Do looking melancholic as she’s interviewed on satellite TV by Yi Jin (his being the interviewer seemed unexpected by her), her expression failing to brighten when she’s congratulated on her marriage. As Min Chae reads her mother’s diaries detailing her love and heartbreak with Yi Jin, she seems to not only accept, but support, their relationship. Is Min Chae so disassociated from her own father that she–an emotional young teen, no less–is not scandalized at the thought of her mother being in love with someone other than her father? Adult Hee Do appears content to be raising her daughter alone while her husband is out of the country for an extended period. We never hear Hee Do voice to Min Chae that she misses having their family together.
I would hope that while dating the man who became her husband, getting married, having a baby, and raising a child, Hee Do created many good memories. What was stored in her brain during the time she shared with Yi Jin was not static. Some memories are forgotten. Some memories are edited, reconstructed as they are recalled. According to one brief article, “The brain edits memories relentlessly, updating the past with new information. Scientists say that this isn’t a question of having a bad memory. Instead, they think the brain updates memories to make them more relevant and useful now–even if they’re not a true representation of the past.” (https://www.npr.org/sections/health-shots/2014/02/04/271527934/our-brains-rewrite-our-memories-putting-present-in-the-past)
In the last episode Hee Do’s final high school diary, lost for many years, is restored to her, spurring her to revisit the tunnel. While there she plays out in her mind another goodbye with Yi Jin. This is a dramatization of how the present can overwrite the past during memory recall. Do I think this was a good way to end Hee Do’s story arc? No. We only got bits of her life after her breakup with Yi Jin, so the story we got wasn’t an arc, but a trajectory, and we are left to guess what happened after the rockets burned out. The story doesn’t have continuity from when Hee Do and Yi Jin broke up to the middle-aged Hee Do. It doesn’t help that different actresses portrayed Hee Do, one during her fencing career and one as the mother of Min Chae. But it is my opinion that the writer didn’t clearly show us how Hee Do moved from one stage of her life to the other, and that leaves us viewers frustrated. Why would Hee Do think lovingly, perhaps longingly, about a long-ago flame? What about her current life would make those emotions plausible? We can’t be sympathetic to Hee Do’s state of mind at the end if we don’t know the path she’s traveled since her relationship with Yi Jin ended.
We are shown that Yi Jin, years later, still considers Hee Do to be his first love. Do we see him being sentimental? No. She’s a fact from his past.
This is my response to @Welmaris’ post.
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Welmaris wrote:
This is how so many viewers felt about the show, @Welmaris. You’re not the only one. As I’ve told @SKate in my post above, the writer deserves all the flak she’s getting from her disgruntled viewers. I’ve no sympathy to spare for her.
Welmaris wrote:
I agree. Many people do NOT end up marrying their first loves. And we hope that these subsequent marriages weren’t entered into as a form of:
a. rebounding from failed first love, or
b. settling for a “good enough” marriage because the first love failed.
And as I’ve written on this thread, this writer deliberately obfuscated Heedo’s marriage to give fans something to use for their Happily-Ever-After Ending theories. All the writer had to do in order to confirm Heedo’s happy marriage to Mr. Kim and end all speculations about a divorce, is to insert a pithy phone call. Instead of that scene with the ballet clothes being gifted to Minchae, she could’ve written this phone conversation, like this:
Adult Heedo: (worriedly) Yeobo? Why are you calling? Are you okay? (pause) Jinjja? Our Minchae would be thrilled to hear that. (in a flirting voice, she calls her husband by his name like Taemoo calls Shin Hari-ssi in Business Proposal) She’s growing up to incorrigible like you, Kim Wooshik-ssi. (pause, then in an excited voice) Okay! See you in two weeks. Oppa, saranghae!
But the writer didn’t employ this direct exposition because she would have given away her endgame (aka the breakup) before Episode 16. For the rating games, she wanted the irrevocable breakup kept under wraps. Lol. Her leading actors, Kim TaeRi and Nam JooHyuk, knew about the endgame when they signed on for their roles.
@Welmaris continued,
I agree. The viewers had this impression of her marriage as either lukewarm at best or terminated/divorced/finished at worst. Again, I blame the Writer because she wanted viewers to stay till the end. She dangled the possibility of Heedo’s marital problems and rekindled romance with YiJin.
I remember shooting down that rekindled romance. I said not at the expense of breaking up a family.
Welmaris wrote:
I agree, @Welmaris. Was it in my “First Impressions” or in the analysis of Eps 3 & 4 that I remarked upon Minchae’s weird reception of the diary? I said it wasn’t normal for a child to accept another man as her mother’s ex-lover because her loyalty would remain with her father. The child naturally thinks of her father and mother as one inseparable unit, and any stranger breaking up the happy couple would have been viewed with a suspicious eye as her father’s rival.
Why would Minchae root for YiJin?
The diary’s content was decidedly TMI and yet, we have Minchae fantasizing of meeting YiJin at the restroom when she herself was locked out of the public restroom just like her mom was in her diaries.
But NOTE THIS, I think this is one of the weaknesses of the writer. The writer didn’t flesh out Minchae to be a real person, that is, “real” in the sense, that she has her own persona and her own voice. Rather this writer used Minchae as her sock-puppet. Minchae’s useful in the drama only because she moves the story along or to reveal an important plot point (i.e., YJ isn’t her dad, Heedo doesn’t remember the beach trip).
@Welmaris continues,
Agree.
That’s why I wrote that, “She convinced herself, her mother, daughter, and most importantly, her husband, that she got over YiJin. But deep inside, she knew she never truly moved on from him. She just buried her memories of him in her heart, like a secret.”
I had hoped that her marriage was enough to get over her first love, that she loved her husband more than she loved YiJin, and that she got over her first love. The best way to get over her memories of her first love is NOT to delete or bury them. But to replace them with better memories of new love/conjugal love/forever love.
But the fact remains, — no mental gymnastics allowed! – that she named her workshop 25-21. She didn’t name it after her and her husband’s ages when they married (2007? 2008? 2009?) That alone tells me that she’s been pining for YiJin.
This is icky when you think about it. It’s like wearing a necklace everyday with your ex’s name engraved on the pendant. Why would you do that?
That’s why I said to @Grace that this drama was WALLOWING on first love. It’s unhealthy.
@Welmaris said,
To me, @Welmaris, the diary is the missing piece that Heedo didn’t know she needed to get over first love.
Again, I stopped watching this drama in full after Episode 4. It was too makjang for me. I got snippets of info from the blog when I visited the Open Thread, and I glanced at a few episodes’ endings to see if the writer finally dropped a bombshell.
What I don’t get about the diary is WHY YiJin left the diary at the bookshop instead of dropping it at her house. Wasn’t he a paperboy in the beginning? He could have chucked that diary over the gate and hit the peeing boy’s head this time.
The recovery of the diary again is sooooo contrived to give us Heedo’s closure that a reasonable person would get insulted by this hack job.
@Welmaris added,
Welllllll… the more I think about Heedo’s state of mind, the more I think Heedo wallowed in this first love of hers for twenty years. She did NOT move on. She only pretended to be.
And I think her mom sensed it when they had brief conversation about YiJin in Episode 4. Her mom still had the instincts of an investigative reporter. She was offering Adult Heedo an opportunity to come clean, inquire about YiJin, and to reminisce about the past. But when Heedo clammed up instead, she shifted gears and talked about “nicer” things like her friendship with Yurim.
Her mom had proof then that her daughter wasn’t over YiJin yet. Even after 20 years, YiJin was still a sensitive topic for her to talk about.
I’m sorry. But that isn’t normal in my books. It’s just first love. It’s not as if she committed murder or bribed referees at tournaments.
I wish Heedo had COPED better. lol. #cope
In the end, @Welmaris wrote,
And that’s how it should be with first love. After a while, it becomes a biographical fact. It doesn’t remain forever as a “emotional scarring.” That’s too melodramatic.
If your life is a journey, then your failed first love should be something you only view from the rearview mirror. It recedes from your vision as you drive on to new adventures, new loves, new horizons, new self-discoveries. A failed first love is only a bump in the road, a short detour, a minor accident. It’s never the final destination.
(So why devote 16 episode on “reflections on lingering first love,” right?)
If I were the writer THAT would have been my final message to the viewers. But this writer has a different mentality, and I blame her youth and inexperience for it.
@packmule3, @Welmaris, I think your analyses are spot on. It would have been more interesting if her mother had probed deeper on the YJ topic. It makes me wonder again if the mother left HD’s bedroom like a shrine to her youth on purpose, diaries included, in the hope that she could come to terms better with her past? Minchae in that respect served as a catalyst, but the lost diary was the final link.
This is my imagination only: I wonder if YJ imagined that HD had read his apologetic response very soon after he left the diary? I wonder if he had hopes for a reconciliation – perhaps not as lovers but as a continuation of their friendship? Yet she got married before that last interview – so how would he perceive that? As a complete burning of bridges? Hmmm. I also wonder if Hee-do might have felt differently about him had she read his words.
Finally, I wonder – surely if YJ is on the news as a senior anchor still, HD must see him from time to time unless she avoids watching the news on that channel. But she might still run into him at other occasions – funerals, weddings, where they might have colleagues or friends in common, as she nearly did at Seungwan’s father’s funeral. I would wonder how she handled it. That serene smile? Or hiding?
@packmule3,#Welmaris and @Fern, We keep going back to this frustrating drama and you, collectively have provided salient reasons for our feelings. Thank you for this thread. I feel a lot better after reading these, given how ambivalent I have been about this drama.Please allow me some further, perhaps extreme, thoughts.
I think this drama will be held up in some circles as a masterpiece. It does make hearts flutter but at the same time it provoked anger. It reminds me of the ending of The Sopranos when the screen went black.For years there was a debate about the ending. Was Tony dead or alive.Recently the show runner stated that Tony was rubbed out(my words).
Well to continue the analogy, it is my belief that Writernim rubbed out HeeDo. All of the other characters including YJ seemed to be leading happy and fulfilling lives-inYJ’s case he’s professionally successful and he has reunited his family. His romantic life remains silent, perhaps as a writer’s trick to keep us viewers hoping. Writer definitely is mean girling us.
However, it seems to me that HeeDo is being punished. Her teen spirit and personal spark were killed off by the time of her satellite interview with YJ. She has become what appears to be a stage mother who has a major falling out with her daughter. Her husband is absent and seemingly uninvolved. Her daughter runs away from home to her grandmother who has become loving, while for the better part of her own childhood. Teen and young adult years, HeeDo’s mother was absent and to HeeDo’s mind, cold. The only warm area left for HeeDo is her woodshop-keeping memories of her kind, caring father who she lost too early (and it’s name, a memory of the other man in her life who was warm to her). By casting a new actress who has no real resemblance to our star, the PD has further killed her off and has succeeded in disconcerting us.
So all of this begs the question-why does this writer hate our heroine by giving her such a seemingly empty life and shutting down the personality traits that made HeeDo endearing to begin with. Of course we could attribute this to commercial concerns and ratings, but I also wonder if there were other things going on in her head. We’ll never know. To me she as good as killed off HeeDo who is no longer recognizable to me.
Yes, it feels like she vanished into thin air. Maybe that is what gets to me the most emotionally and why I cannot bring myself to thoroughly watch the last episodes. What is the point? She has been erased from the show and there is no longer any hope for her.
@OAL, my thought is that Writernim lobotomized HeeDo, just like R.P. in One Flew Over the Cuckoo’s Nest: still alive, but the spirit is gone. Does that make Writernim Nurse Ratched?
😂 @mon mor,
No.
Adult Heedo’s final scene, when she goes back to the tunnel, and makes peace with the imaginary YiJin, can be viewed as hopeful moment.
She got her closure when she read the diary. It was what? 15 years? 20 years too late, but at least she got closure. With closure, she can move on.
As I wrote in the “On First Love” thread, she convinced herself (and her husband, yuck yuck) that she had moved on from her first love, when in fact, she was very much haunted by it.
a. She named her store after their ages when they broke up. I’m not exaggerating when I said that naming the store after your bad breakup is similar to wearing a necklace with your EX-boyfriend’s name engraved on it. NOBODY does that unless she/he is still in love with the ex.
b. She didn’t want to talk about YiJin with her mom.
c. She lied to her daughter about not remembering the beach scene. She does. She just didn’t want to talk to her daughter about YiJin either.
d. She bought a red car. If she had such a bad memory about the beach week, she should’ve bought a black, white or blue car. Anything other than red.
e. She married a guy she wasn’t passionate about. There! I’m going to say it out loud. If she truly, passionately, really loved Mr Kim like she did YiJin, she would’ve resented his prolonged absence, too.
Besides, imprinted on Heedo’s personality is this craving to be the center of her lover’s world because of the neglect she felt from her mother. That childhood trauma shaped her. The fact that she doesn’t miss him, call him, talk about him, and so on, tells me that she isn’t head-over-heels in love with him like she was with YiJin.
Going back to the tunnel, where it all started, is her way confronting her secret. After their breakup, she buried her first love in the tunnel or recess of her heart and she’s been WALLOWING in regret. 😂 I keep telling you this….
Hence, as @haengbog reminded us in the “On First Loves” thread, the tunnel was still closed in Ep 15.
When the Adult Heedo makes peace with the crying YiJin, she finally opens up about first love, secret regret, and unforgettable love that she’s been refusing to face head-on all these years. It’s a cathartic moment. Kinda like fencing when the fencer must face her opponent one last time and bows after the match for a fight well played.
So don’t be an Adult Heedo and wallow in melodrama, too. 🙂 Just move on.
Off topic, a bit. Your point ‘a’ made me pity people who had tattoos of a partner’s name. After a break-up of course it’s more difficult than removing a necklace, bracelet or ring. Tattoos aren’t my thing personally, but one MUST be careful about the designs for the future.
Right, @Fern?
My sons don’t have tattoos or wear earrings. None of their cousins on my side of the family has them, too. At least, as far as I’m told… 😂
When my sons were young, I told them the family rules and the rationale behind them. I said tattoos were a form of self-expression and self-other (myself vs others) distinction.
Lol. I was careful not to mention teen rebellion bec I didn’t want to give them ideas. 🙅♀️
I said that their father and I would prefer that they express and distinguish themselves in a more constructive way. Like:
– write to their senator or newspaper if there’s an issue they care about
-start a fundraiser for children in need (one son was involved in computer literacy project).
-start an organization to address a teen problem (one son became involved in a pilot program to raise awareness on teen suicide)
-win sports tournaments
-compete in Math Olympiads
-excel in music, chess, painting, etc.
The emphasis is on ACTION. I wanted them to DO something to make a difference instead of relying on their visuals and APPEARANCE to make a difference.
I said I’d rather they call attention to a worthy cause than call attention to themselves with their tattoos. 🙂 Because what’s the point?
They will always have OUR loving attention and support.
But there’s so much out there in the world that needs THEIR attention and support besides the question of getting tattoos, e.g., what design on their tattoos, what Latin maxim to write on the tattoo, what colors to use for the tattoo, and how best to annoy me. 😂
In the scheme of things, tattoos seem such a shallow bit of self-expression and self-promotion compared to what they can do for real.
@Fern, I usually have these conversations (remember my drinking tips?) with my boys BEFORE there’s an actual need. That way I’m not “reacting” to the situation but “educating” them on how to think when the issue arises.
I heard of a girlfriend asking for a small tattoo on the ankle. I didn’t say anything. But I texted my son a follow-up, saying if he was taking requests for tattoos, I wanted MOM on his chest, too. 🤪
Haha. At least a MOM tattoo wouldn’t ever become irrelevant because it’s indisputably a permanent relationship. 😂 Although it might be a bit intimidating to a potential partner… I like your idea of calling attention to a worthy cause instead.
I know, @Fern. A MOM tattoo fits too because we are our children’s first love. 😂
But it wouldn’t look good because who wants to marry a “momma’s boy.”
My boys will fly in for Easter so we’re excited.
@Welmatis,Nude Ratchet, yup,you’ve got something there.
@Fern, Re:tattoos, they’re frowned upon in my religion (graven images like photos in older days) but after WWII, people who survived the concentration camps were given dispensations because their tattoos were forced(that was for burial in certain Jewish cemeteries where tattooed deceased people was forbidden).Anyway, there’s nothing uglier than tattoos on elderly wrinkled skin .
Off topic:
@packmule3, I thought our childhood Easters were pretty extravagant, with colouring hard boiled eggs and getting baskets of Easter treats after Mass, but they were nothing compared to British Easters. Here it’s all giant chocolate eggs with additional candy eggs in various forms. It’s OTT chocolate.
I couldn’t abbreviate this, but you get the idea in the first 30 seconds. Pretty neighborhood, right?
Wrap up videos or rather videos for us as we wrap up our emotions for 25, 21.
I didn’t think of it before, but yes, they would have filmed in Winter!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kDehSmPahDw
Some stuff we could guess and some might be new
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dA4r2pOoSHs
Enchanted.
To those of you celebrating Easter, I live in a neighborhood with lots of Italian groceries that sell imports. There are wild varieties of huge chocolate Easter Eggs and Easter eg t s filled with other c delicacies, all wrapped beautifully. The bakeries are full of grain pie and glorious pastries. We’ve also just come off St. Joseph’s Day. There are special pastries f or that, one tilled with cannoli cream and the other with custard. I hope those of you celebrating have a blessed, meaningful and delicious Easter.
Thank you @OAL. The true celebration of Easter is of course invisible, however it’s nice to have the colourful symbols of new life in candies and chocolates to express the joy of hopefully making a change and growing for the better for another year.
Here’s the long and satisfying review of this Show by @kfangurl on her own blog. I read parts of it and agreed with most that I read.
The emotional attachment that this Show has created is a bar raised high. It’s hard to think another show can come around to grab my heart the way this show has. Kfangurl describes it accurately, why it’s so hard to let go of this show.
https://thefangirlverdict.com/2022/05/02/review-twenty-five-twenty-one/