One problem I often see with kdramas is that many viewers accept the morality espoused by characters and screenwriter without question or reflection. Bitches should know better.
Park Jin: (reminding Uk) Do not forget to thank Master Lee. If he did not vouch for you, things would have gotten complicated.
Uk: Yeah.
Here, Park Jin shows that he’s undertaking the role of a father well. He teaches Uk manners. He doesn’t do this with his own kin, Park Danggu.
Heo Yeom: You almost had people get the wrong idea about you by mastering Tansu, which was Naksu’s specialty.
Danggu: Uk even wanted to become Naksu’s pupil.
Park Jin: What do you mean?
Danggu: Pardon? He was frustrated that he could not find a master to open his gate of energy. So he said it as a joke.
Park Jin: Did you really say that?
Uk: Yes, I did.
Park Jin: Yul, I want you to tell him what kind of punishment is given to mages who perform sorcery.
And here, Park Jin shows that he isn’t undertaking the role of a father well.
You don’t have to be a child psychologist know that there’s a difference between authoritarian and authoritative parenting. Though both parenting styles are strict and rule-oriented, one style works better than the other.
Park Jin’s approach is authoritarian. He gives orders and expects to be followed simply because he says so. I understand that sometimes this method is easier and faster especially when dealing with a crisis. However, this style doesn’t with Uk who wants to think for himself and who rebels against authority. This style works best for people like Danggu and Yul.
Park Jin should be an authoritative parent. He must explain his rules to Uk, discuss the finer points, and modify the rules when appropriate. For instance, instead of focusing on the punitive consequences of performing sorcery, he could have used this moment to give his reason why sorcery is nonnegotiable for him.
Really now. Since Park Jin cannot control Uk, he can at least teach Uk the importance of self-control so Uk can do it himself.
Yul: If you perform sorcery, your entire energy flow will be cut off, and you will be unable to cast any spells Then you will get banished from Daeho, and your descendants will never be able to become mages.
Essentially, Yul is saying is Uk cannot perform sorcery because it’s punishable. But why it is punishable isn’t explained.
This reminds me of Jang Gang’s fear of being discovered to have engaged in sorcery. Read my First Impressions. I said that Jang Gang’s moral compass was defective. I explained that, rather than being distressed that he endangered and harmed people, he was more bothered that his stature and status as the Gwanju of Cheongbugwan would be doomed if his practice of alchemy of souls was exposed. His focus was on the exposé, not the harm and suffering. His concern was for himself, not for others.
Park Jin: Remember that. Do not ever say anything like that again.
Sigh. Remember this: authoritarian parenting <<< authoritative parenting.
Uk: Why is it wrong to perform sorcery?
Park Jin: What?
Uk: Regular magic can kill people, too. On the contrary, sorcery can help save someone’s life. Rather than differentiating between the two, a person’s true intention behind the spell seems a lot more important.
Park Jin: Then are you saying you are open to using sorcery if it means you could save someone’s life?
Uk: If I can use sorcery to save someone, then I do not think it would be a problem.
Everybody: (shocked)
Heo Yeom: You damn boy! How dare you! You are a mage of Jeongjingak. How dare you say that you are open to using sorcery? If this is how you are going to be, give me back the torrent of energy I gave you.
Park Jin: (depressed)
Many viewers have sided with Uk’s belief that it’s the “intention” that make a magic spell either or bad.
I say emphatically, hell no.
I’ll explain this as a parent. An authoritative parent, that is. And since I’m not a mage, let me explain this in terms of human actions.
Magic spell = a human action
Think of a magic spell as a human action in which a person deliberately and consciously chooses to do something. I’m not talking about human unconscious/instinctive acts like burping, sneezing, or laughing here. A magic spell is a moral action.
This is what Uk said:
Uk: Regular magic can kill people, too. On the contrary, sorcery can help save someone’s life. Rather than differentiating between the two, a person’s true intention behind the spell seems a lot more important.
I would have said this:
If you think that a magic spell is either good or bad, depending on the intention of the doer, then tell me what happens if a person performs a magic spell to rape you with a broomstick and he excuses his action, saying that it’s with the good *intention* of turning you into a powerful witch or mage. Would you still consider the magical rape spell good?
Do you see the problem?
There are some human actions (or in context of the drama, “magic spells”) that are intrinsically evil.
Off the top of my head now, I can list a few: rape, torture, pedophilia, genocide, bestiality, abortion (and nope, termination of an ectopic pregnancy isn’t abortion), human sacrifices, killing innocent people, human trafficking, mutilation, forced sterilization, child abuse, organ trafficking, extortion, necrophilia, embezzlement, arson, infidelity, treason, assassination.
Should I go on?
Intrinsic evil means that the evil is inherent, built-in, inseparable from, and objectively found in the deed itself. No “good intentions” can ever justify it.
In my opinion, Park Jin should have explained to Uk that some magic spells are inherently bad and never should be done. These inherently bad magic spells are what Park Jin considers sorcery or dark magic.
Without referring to Lady Dohwa’s rape, he then could have brought up the subject of “irreparable harm” that the practice of dark magic can do. Sure, sorcery can help save someone’s life (like it did with the King’s legacy), but at what costs to others?
That’s the significance of Park Jin’s confrontation with Maidservant Kim in Episode 8.
Park Jin: Before Uk was born, about 20 years ago, did Jang Gang perform the alchemy of souls?
Kim: The Gwanju of Cheonbugwan performing sorcery? That is absurd.
Park Jin: Jin Mu told me about it. I could not dare to hear from him, so I came to you instead.
Kim: (agitated) Madam Dohwa was indeed once concerned that Gwanju was interested in learning a strange spell.
This is just a euphemism. “Strange spell” = dark magic
Kim: (continuing) However, it did not last long. He did not come home for a year. He practiced spells with Jin Mu in the Cheongbugwan Secret Room. However, he stopped doing so after his wife became pregnant.
Park Jin: (looking at Lady Dohwa’s portrait and realizing the truth of what happened. Jang Gang had used the alchemy of souls)
Kim: As a mage, he was just briefly curious about it.
Park Jin: No. He committed something irreparable to DoHwa and Uk.
Irreparable = Irredeemable. Cannot be rectified. Impossible to make good. In other words, inherently evil.
Park Jin is 100% right.
Moreover, I think it was a good moment for Park Jin to guide Uk on how to consider the morality of a magic spell. Morality doesn’t involve “intentions” alone.
Again, if we view a magic spell as similar to a deliberately and consciously willed human action, then there should be three determinants of the morality of its usage.
First, there’s the objective reality of the spell. Just like with human actions, there are magic spells that are intrinsically wrong. Uk should determine whether action ITSELF is moral or immoral.
Second, there’s the subjective reality of the spell. This is where the “intentions” that Uk mentioned, comes in. Is the intention or motivation of the doer good or bad?
Now if I were Park Jin, I would have taught Uk what a “good” intention was. Good intention means morally good. It’s a mistake to think that good intentions bring pleasure, gratification, or freedom from pain. They aren’t correlated.
A prime example of a person with “good” intention is Park Jin. He only has good intention for Uk. He wants Uk safe and protected; he sincerely cares for Uk. But his good intention doesn’t translate into being kind, indulgent or permissive. He’s strict with Uk and he often regrets being mean to Uk because he feels he has no choice.
It’s important to remember that the objective reality of the spell outweighs the subjective. It doesn’t matter if the intentions are good. If the action is inherently wrong to begin with, then it’ll lead to wrong and harmful outcomes.
Third, the circumstances.
People always think of “extenuating” circumstances because they think some situations or conditions can provide an excuse for the action. In truth, circumstances can never change an inherently immoral action (e.g., rape and child abuse) into a good one. What circumstances do, however, is a) change the level of moral responsibility, and b) increase/diminish the goodness and badness of the human action.
Take for instance, the mother in Episode 1 whose son was soul shifter. Yes, she took part in the alchemy of souls. But we hold her less morally responsible for participating in the sorcery than Jang Gang who knew what alchemy of soul was. However, she was going to sacrifice a mother and child for her own son’s sake, and that makes her more guilty than Jang Gang.
And that’s how I view Uk’s perspectives on morality.
To me, he’s a child still. He has yet to distinguish a “regular” magic spell from a “dark” magic spell aka sorcery. He still needs to learn that a magic spell, like human actions, is morally good when the a) act itself is good, b) the intention is good, and c) the circumstances are good. Good intentions alone don’t cut it.
After all, the road to hell is paved with good intentions.
@Packmule3, thank you for those 3 determinants of morality. I wonder if someone will teach UK about that or if he will learn by his mistakes. I also wonder if Maidservant Kim thinks the same way about Jang Kang if she understands what he did. It’s possible that she doesn’t believe Park Jin or thinks it’s only a hypothesis. I wonder if Do Hwa came to wonder about it before she died. I hope not.
I personally disagree.
I like that Matter Lee touched on this in what was almost like a throwaway line on Ep 11.
I think it is wrong to conflate the concept of a truly good intention with using a broomstick to hurt someone with the “good intention” of making someone stronger. The latter’s intention isn’t pure good at all if the underlying intention is to hurt someone regardless of what the intended outcome of it. It’s a Machiavellian scheme of the ends makes the means…
This is getting into philosophical territories but in my opinion, the example raised above smacks of a logical fallacy.
That’s not to say that sorcery may not be inherently evil. I do not believe we have seen enough to understand the difference between sorcery and magic, and understand what sorcery or magic can each accomplish. Certainly, the sorcery we have seen ie Alchemy of Souls and the relics all seem inherently evil but it is implied that Gwigu, the evil-sensing dog spirit, is a product of sorcery and is perhaps the closest we have to an example that perhaps not all sorcery is inherently evil?
Hmm I think I’m with @cerunias on this one.
Let’s take a less extreme example than the broom one. What if we compare it to taking liquids in carry-on luggage on an airplane? We’re limited to how much we can take on because in some cases it was proven to have a negative consequence. But otherwise most liquids are not harmful – it’s all in the intent of the carrier.
But because bad things are possible, everyone flying is asked to limit it to 3 ounce bottles.
Apart from soul shifting – which does have negative consequences- I’m not sure what else happens with sorcery or how it differs from magic that mages practice. Eg the highest level mages can also perform soul shifting, how’s that different from sorcery?
Hopefully once we find out more, we can be more clear.
I do agree that Park Jin handled it terribly with Uk.
Sigh. @cerunia is wrong.
And taking a 3 ounce bottle is NOT an intrinsically evil moral act.
Hijacking the plane is.
@packmule Agreed. Hijacking is wrong and there’s no two ways about that. And in that case I agree fully with your post.
My confusion lies in the lack of clarity around sorcery vs magic. Is sorcery the water or is sorcery the hijacking? If the latter, agreed. If the former, perhaps it’s a grey area in my mind.
As always love to see and learn from different perspectives.
Ahh wait, I missed the part where you said the spell is the human action. So then a sorcery spell would indeed be hijacking and in that case wrong. It’s evil regardless and the extenuating circumstances don’t change that but impact moral responsibility as you said.
Never mind, I’m working overtime this weekend and my eyes are blurry already. Can’t wait to unblur them with ep 11 later today!
Sorcery is an action.
Water is — well, an element, part of nature.
Morality can only apply to actions, in particular an action that is freely chosen, willed and deliberated.
Morality cannot be applied to inanimate objects or nonliving things or even living things without a conscience. Think about this… can a purse be moral? Can sunlight be moral? Can rain be moral? Can a dolphin be moral? Can an earthworm be moral? Can a stone be moral? Can a book be moral? Can a gun be moral? Can a flower be moral?
No.
Only HUMAN action can be judged whether it’s morally good or bad.
I don’t think you understood, @cerunias.
For any moral act, there are three components:
a. the object/act itself
b. the intention/motivation and
c. the circumstances.
I did NOT invent that. That’s the Philosophy of Morality. I’m just a messenger.
Uk is saying that intentions alone make the action (or spell) good.
That is patently wrong.
As a matter of fact, that IS the very definition of Machiavellian “the ends justify the means” that you just mentioned. lol.
The ends = INTENTIONS, goals, desired outcome, motivation, the expected results, objective
The means = ACTIONS (or spell) taken, process, method, instrument, manner, technique, procedure
The ends can NEVER justify the means… at least in a civilized and humane world but then the world is changing fast, so who knows?
Jang Uk is wrong
a. because he ignores two other determinants as I said. He still has to consider the kind of spell (or the action itself) and the circumstances.
b. because no matter how GOOD the intention of the person is (e.g., to better person, to save the world, to cure illness, to prolong life),
And NO MATTER whether his GOOD intentions are real or imaginary, stated or disputed, explicit or implied, debatable or demonstrable, serious or absurd, stored in his mind or kept in his heart, sincere or faked, old or recently added, yada yada,
if the action is INTRINSICALLY evil (i.e., rape, child abuse, torture, slavery, abortion, bestiality, organ harvesting, pedophilia…), then the action is MORALLY wrong.
This explains Park Jin’s nonacceptance of the use of sorcery, and repulsion at Jang Gang’s use of alchemy of souls, and Master Lee’s destruction of relics made by sorcery.
From Ep 7
Girl: That ice stone sounds amazing. Where is it? I would like to see it.
Lee: It is an extremely frightening stone. Sorcery using the stone’s power created wicked things that could hurt people. Boy, where did you get that wooden doll?
Boy: I found it up in the mountains.
Lee: Would you like to trade it for this?
Boy: Yes.
Lee: This is a relic cursed with sorcery.
Master Lee is good.
His intention/goal/objective: Get rid of the doll that could potentially harm people. He had a good intention.
His action: He traded nuts for the doll. Morally good action. Had he stolen it from the kid or, worse, killed the boy to get it, his action would have been morally bad.
As for Master Lee’s comment that “[Park] Jin has no choice but to hide Uk because he wishes to protect Songrim,” let’s explore that statement.
Park Jin’s action = hiding Uk in Songrim
Hiding is not an intrinsically bad action. It’s neutral. If he had kidnapped and tortured him, then yes, it’s bad.
Park Jin’s motivation = twofold
His obvious intention: to protect Songrim because he’s the leader of Songrim
His no-one-believes-it intention: to protect Uk
Remember, this was the man who burst Jang Gang’s bubble when Jang Gang was sealing baby Uk’s Gate of Energy while all the others just watched him. He cared for Uk since he was a baby
His motivation/intention/goal/objective is NOT morally bad.
So both his actions and intentions are not morally bad,
(At least, so far… we’re still in Episode 10 or 11.)
As for the dog Gwiju —
a. as a spirit, its action can neither be morally good or bad. As I said, morality is only for people who can think, deliberate, and choose good or evil.
b. the fact that an evil deed has PRODUCED something good DOES NOT turn the evil deed into something good. It remains evil.
We cannot say that “Oh! something good happened anyway from the bad deed so I guess it wasn’t sooo bad. (shrug)” or “Oh! it’s okay that a million people died during the __ genocide because we have more food for the living” or “Oh! I’ve a successful career because I aborted my baby” or “Oh! it’s a good thing I was molested as a child because it makes me a better child advocate attorney.”
It simply doesn’t work that way.
And it’s Machiavellian.
What we can say, however, is that an evil thing has happened, and that we can overcome evil with goodness.
And I think — or at least I hope so — that’ll be the message of this drama. With sorcery/dark magic, Jang Gang used the power of the ice stone and did an irreparable harm to his wife. But out of that rape, a baby was born, Jang Uk. And we’re hoping that he can overcome evil with goodness.
End of.
Hi! @pm3 I agree with you on the morality of things. I didnt quite follow the argument at the beginning but understood what you meant.
I thought it was a missed opportunity for PJ to have explained the difference. I wished he would have said something because I wanted to hear it. As humans, we make mistakes often and can get bogged down on the nuance of words and meanings either because we want it to make it work for us or because we mistunderstand something. Like you said intentions are not enough. PJ missed his chance to explain. So will UK will have to learn on his own?
🙂 To be precise, it’s the morality of *actions.*
Generally speaking, things/inanimate objects do not have agency or the ability to choose how to act.
Hence, the ice stone, which is an inanimate object, can neither do a morally good or bad action. It’s neutral.
However, it can be used for morally good or morally bad action.
Examples of morally good actions that were done with the use of the ice stone:
– to end drought
– to quench thirst
– to water plants
– to survive with water
– to protect loved ones
Examples of morally bad actions that were done with the use of the ice stone:
– to kill the innocent
– to soul shift
– to wage war
– to wrest power
– to maintain power (i.e., the King who wanted an heir to the throne)
According to the drama, sorcery is defined as doing DARK magic.
Prime example of dark magic in the drama: soul-shifting
A question was asked: why is soul-shifting/AoS done with the use of ice stone considered sorcery (and therefore BAD magic) while soul-shifting done by HWANSU is good.
It’s because AoS done with ice stone results in people killing innocent people.
Soul-shifting with the use of the ice stone creates soul-shifters who eventually run wild and kill other people to get energy.
In contrast, Hwansu-level mages (i.e., Master Seo and I guess, Master Lee) don’t need to kill people to get their energy when they soul-shift because they have mastered the ability to do so with their own energies inside of them.
As to whether Uk will have to learn on his own that GOOD intentions aren’t enough, I guess EXPERIENCE is the best teacher of all.
Master Lee can definitely teach and guide him through correct use of magic. But Uk doesn’t want to drink the short root tea. (He’ll do anything but that….lol.)
I see this as Uk’s learning experience.
He thinks he knows better than Park Jin about regular magic vs sorcery. He’s like Naksu in this sense. Naksu, too, thinks she knows more than the “coward” Master Lee who didn’t send the love letter. But she learned soon enough that Master Lee must have reasons of his own — wise reasons, prudent reasons — not to send the letter.
Similarly, Uk thinks that Park Jin is dumb to avoid sorcery because “good intentions” should be enough to turn sorcery good. But then, he’s clueless about what happened to his mother, Lady Dohwa, because of his father’s “good” intentions.
Oh well. He’ll learn soon enough.