25 Comments On “The Prisoner of Beauty: Open Thread”
ibisfeather
I wept like a baby in ep.5 when QM and her maids were left outside in the pouring rain for three days. That is when I first knew I would love the show.
When I realized I was sitting through the opening credits every episode again, I knew I was completely done for.
WS’ Mom still hasnt completely redeemed herself in my eyes.
(Not sure how to handle spoilers in an open thread..just in the first few eps?)
For now, just write the Episode number on top of your post before the spoiler. That way, readers can decide whether to continue reading your commentary or skip it till later.
I don’t know how many other posters will join you. If there’s a bunch of you, then I can start separating threads, i.e., Eps 1 to 6, Eps 7 to 12, and so on.
EPISODE 5
Yes, the rain scene gave us viewers just the right amount of heart twinges. I admired QM’s patience and rationality. She assumed that he was delayed in calling them inside the gates because he couldn’t settle the in-fighting among relatives about her joining the clan. If I were QM, I would have been reading the riot act if I were made to wait outside — without water or food! — for more than an hour.
His relatives be damned.
I admired her servants, especially the chubby one, because they got soaked when they went out to pull the tarps down and yet, by some miracle, they didn’t catch a cold. 😂
I was annoyed with his generals. They should have been horse-whipped for inaction. Couldn’t they have done something to make the ladies comfortable in that tiny wagon?
But the sadistic streak in me enjoyed very much the escalation of miseries for QM. First, it was the deluge of rain. Next came her fever. Then the eviction and the letter of divorce. And then, there’s the face of scheming cousin who had refused QM entrance to the city in the first place.
To top it all, the chubby maid begged the generals, on her hands and knees, to rescue her mistress QM and the generals didn’t budge. Her reasoning was on point, “Even if the Lord Wei intends to divorce her, he should not let her die because of it.”
We could sense that things were about to fall apart because there was just chaos everywhere.
Naturally, WS’ entrance — in a flowing black cape, with lights shining behind him, and on a galloping horse no less — made him look like the avenging hero of our dreams on his way to rescue the gravely ill heroine.
Oh, the drama! 👏👏👏👏
Fern
Episode 5.
I found it a stretch to believe that WS wouldn’t know that the women were out there, because there would have been a buzz around the palace and his advisor, who is kind hearted, would have said something. But we needed the drama at the end to drive home his rescue and the subsequent scolding of his mother (who can’t and won’t read the room because she is silly and selfish) and the foster-daughter. Strike one for those two!
@nrllee and I mentioned this in the other thread, “Heavenly Ever After” and I think it bears repeating here.
The way we see it, great kdramas and cdramas have persuasive elements in them. The Greek philosopher Aristotle listed ethos, logos, and pathos as three key elements of persuasion. That is, for us viewers to be persuaded — or convinced — to stick around for hours to watch a series, the story should have:
Ethos: the characters (the lead characters and/or the narrator) must be credible, authentic, and/or trustworthy. It’s easy to watch a heroine who starts off as naive but along the way becomes sophisticated, hardened, even cynical. But it’s difficult to watch a madwoman (say, Mr Rochester’s wife in the attic) portrayed as a heroine, trying to convince us that she’s right in her mind and actions, while the rest of the world is crazy.
In this particular Cdrama, it’s easy to like QM (or Man Man) because she’s sensible in her approach, convincingly so. She has every reason to fear and hate WS because of his vengeful, destructive bent. But she tries to find a chink in his armor so she can save her world. This is her bravery at work. That’s the reason I stuck around after Ep 1.
Logos: The story must have logic, or a modicum of it. I can suspend my disbelief for some time, but it’s taxing on my brain cells to set aside my critical thinking for hours on end just to view a show.
So, the 3 day, 2 night exposure to rain of our female lead was doable for me because the whole scene really took only about 20 minutes of playtime. Had it stretched to an hour, I would’ve skipped or fast-forwarded it.
I admit though that when we were told of the elapsed time, it quickly registered on me that no woman could pee outdoors in the pouring rain so how could QM and her maids survive 72 hours in their carriage with full bladders?
I’d like to think that WS was so caught up with work issues that he forgot about his new bride. After all, he’s been a bachelor all his life, fighting in the battlefields, so he wasn’t accustomed to checking in on the health and home life of a family member. And to his credit, he did assign the task of welcoming QM home to his cousin.
At any rate, this rain incident made a nice contrast to future episodes when he would leave work to come home and have meals with QM. He was being “domesticated.”
Ethos: The story must have emotional appeal to compel us to stick around. Unfortunately, for many cdrama and kdrama enthusiasts, they’re only focused on the ethos of the story. 😂
Kate
Great that this show is being discussed. Thank you @Packmule. I am enjoying your commentary.
Ever the impatient viewer, I have finished the show and this discussion will allow me to enjoy afresh and enjoy moments I missed too.
The chubby maid is well known in China for her regular role on the Hello Saturday variety show. She’s a name in her own right and her presence in the cast also signals the contemporary touches in the plot – some very knowing ‘meta humour’, for instance.
Episode 6 SPOILER meets Take Note
For fans of Moon Lovers Scarlet Heart (both the Chinese and Korean versions) there is a brief nod to a famous scene with a cape in the rain. In this show it involves chubby maid and chubby General. It’s in the first 4 minutes – watch from 3′ 19′. Blink and you miss it – but it is there! There are other modern day cultural references scattered throughout which create that wry/knowing distance from the historic context.
ibisfeather
@packmule3, What follows may sound didactic — my background is in classical studies (history and poetry rather than philosophy) but believe me, I have forgotten most detailed knowledge at this point. For me its just fun to dive into using big-concepts as a common language.
Yes, pathos is what hooks c/kdrama viewers — they often get it confused with ethos and make comments about the believability of characters which only demonstrate their limited experiential knowledge.
Just wanted to say about ethos — it is also connected to communal ethics/community beliefs, esp. in cdrama. I love that the question ‘what makes a great ruler’ is as powerful for judging cdrama as pathos is for kdrama. I call it my secret greedy pleasure because it takes a lot of reading of real Asian ‘advice to the ruler’ texts to automatically use confucian/or sometimes modern ethical questions as one of the keys to enjoyment.
Have been talking to monmor abt some of the delays in the romance storyline. I opined that we are constantly being diverted from the marriage’s consummation so as to admire the ability of our pair to fit in any kind of intimacy in between the pressing issues of rulership, and that that clear understanding of those responsibilities is part of the ‘virtue’ QM so clearly demonstrates.
I saw that scene when the chubby General covered the chubby maid with his cape in a sweet attempt to shield her from the rain and I knew instantly that it was an homage to Moon Lovers. 😂😂
But all I could envision was skinny IU and skinny Lee Joongi because I never saw the original cdrama.
Thanks for the tidbit in the chubby maid’s meta references. Will keep an eye out for them (not that I know much about Chinese humor 😂😂).
monmor
@Ibisfeather , pm3 I am enjoying your exchange about logos, pathos, and ethos.
I posted over on the first impressions thread but maybe it would have been better here?
🙂 Methinks that corollary to the question “what makes a great ruler” is “what makes a great commoner or citizen.”
I notice that in many of these pseudo-historical romances (what’s the equivalent of “sageuks” in cdramas?) the citizenry is often depicted as
a) simple folks have simple wants, i.e., give them food and shelter, and they’ll be obedient and passive masses,
b) simple folks don’t seek upward mobility in society or an upgrade in material possessions.
c) simple folks can’t come up with their own solutions to the problem and must rely in benevolent rulers to fix them.
Take for instance the drought and famine in the Rongjun (Episode 11 onwards). Although it’s admirable of QM to take the lead and look for an alternative grain that’s drought-resistant and has higher yield, I find it odd that the people themselves weren’t clamoring about their situation, demanding solutions, and/or coming up with their own ideas. There’s this passivity — or passive ACCEPTANCE of their conditions — and reliance on big government to fix problems and provide for their needs that I *personally* disagree with.
In this sense, I see propaganda in the cdramas and “culture molding” of the unwary viewers.
I am vey much enjoying this drama despite my initial hesitation about his seeming like a violent character.
@Fern I love her character- so thoughtful, considerate, strategic and able to take charge.(and sassy). It has been fun to see his befuddlement!
Episodes 29-31
It is an interesting question whether to burden/ Ask for Help from her cousin. I think I would have out of desperation for my husband. The female lead though Is measured and thoughtful. She deals with the situation by relying on herself. That took a lot of personal strength and intelligence. And the willingness to slog through the wilderness in a long dress!
It feels like Viki is purposely frustrating me😁. There are 2 episodes today for me to watch, though so that is good.
ibisfeather
@packmule3 totally agree on the history cdrama culture molding. Passive citizenry who need to be led. sageuk feels more nuanced in some dramas, altho in the weird way that fantasy reflects and objects to current realities. Will stop there with politics.
Kate
@Packmule,
Fab that they did that with the cape scene eh?!
I like the way the ‘meta humour’ is so lightly signalled (rather than with the heavy use of comedy incidental music). Other characters/scenes have these ‘throw away’ moments too which you will no doubt pick up on.
Thinking of IU there is a brief little dance in one scene that made me think of her birthday party dance for the youngest prince in Moon lovers! Similar humour – although I doubt the writer was thinking of that particular k-drama.
monmor
It just dawned on me with this drama that liu yuning does his own horseback riding.
How I feel about him riding a horse, Especially riding a horse in the rainy dark night Belongs on shallow island.
ibisfeather
ep.34-5.
Trying to be general but no matter what I say
its A SPOILER
Kdrama formula has the advantage of relieving anxiety. Even if a variation is used the fact of a predictable timing structure softens anguish — while the music draws the sting.
Cdrama is not the same animal. Mainly, its looking to produce grander effect; fear, terror, anguish. Here I am nearly at the end of PoB, a place where in kdrama we might be well into troubles but they would have been expected ones and their methods of resolution are actually fun to watch..
Now all the crazy loose ends I thought were left behind in PoB have all wound up into one tragic trap. I do love heroics, and these have even more power given how much fear we feel….the Ladies of Wei! The Lord and the Canal! This is grand drama indeed.
A total aside, NOT a spoiler perse…Another classical trope in the juxtaposition of Manman’s labor and the soldier’s labors…sometimes the classical chorus opines indirectly that for women giving birth is as dangerous as battle is for young men.
And modern mortality statistics do indeed bear this out because the danger of uncontrolled bleeding is the nightmare of the battlefield medic and of the attending physician at birth (the actual area of the inner surface of the womb once the placenta is removed is a wound too big to be staunched if it were on the outside of a soldiers body).
Women are tougher than men physically, thank goodness. (I worked as a night clerk in the emergency ward at Brigham and Womens Hospital while in college)
Welmaris
@packmule3, I just posted a long musing about TPoL’s civic structure on the Ep. 3 thread. In short, I think that the show is trying to draw parallels between marriage and societal responsibilities, but doesn’t do a good job of it. As presented, the relationship of lords to their peasantry is more parent-child than marriage of partners.
As for how marriage is presented in TPoL, we only have one “good” marriage as an example, and in that one there’s imbalance of power. QM’s life and well-being can be taken away with a word from WS, or through his neglect. He threatened to kill her for revenge, or to raise his military’s morale. When he delegated her care to family and put her out of his mind, he failed to protect her from almost-lethal harm. With his grandfather and father taken from him at a young age, he hasn’t seen a healthy marriage modeled for him, so he hasn’t a clue how he should behave in his relationship with his bride. (It seems the closest healthy marriage model to him is his advisor’s, but that is only briefly alluded to a couple of times.) QM does most of the work creating a positive marriage environment. She learned healthy family dynamics from her loving step-mother (step-aunt?), and proper political theory from her grandfather. Even when deep love develops between WS and QM, the imbalances remain: her life is in his hands, his marriage’s well-being is tenaciously crafted by her. In their relationship, she does the heavy lifting of proving her value, over and over. Despite the desire and mutual respect WS and QM develop for each other as lovers and partners, a twist of fate or change in attitude may bring their “good” marriage to ruin. In my mind a healthy marriage is a balancing act, both partners contributing through thick and thin, and support isn’t withdrawn when mistakes are made.
monmor
For me, the parallels between governance and marriage are more along the lines of the psychology of the individuals. We see how the lord of wei learns a more two way cooperative approach to marriage and, at the same time, promotes infrastructure for co operative trade.
On the other hand, several characters are so hell bent on revenge and power that they manipulate, control through threats, extortion and /or sex and have no concern for their subjects. The lady You, consumed by personal hatred, wants to anniilate the Weis.
The Lord of Wei gives up his revenge plans for the sake of his marriage and his people and works towards giving them the means to take care of themselves through successful farming and trade. Her family and I think his also take in refugees where others kill them.
A parallel here is that the Lord of Wei allows both his wife and his people to have subjectivity, whereas the evil characters do not have any compassion for their subjects.
Both her grandfather and his grandmother serve as beacons of good. Lord Wei’s brother, shows his loyalty to his upstanding grandmother and rejects his evil father/grandfather. Her sister gives the ultimate sacrifice to prevent war, loss and cruelty.
So a time of peace ensues poiticall and two babies harbinger the future.
As I write I think about @Ibisfeather’s question of what makes a good ruler.
monmor
I realize I barely mentioned the female lead in my post above. I have written and thought about her a lot. She embodies many traits of leadership. She has good emotional control,takes responsibilty and is a strategic thinker. She is wise in her interactions with others and, as emphasozed in the drama, has true concern for the people.
monmor
I realized I left some spoilers in my longer comment above. Since I have finished the drama I was paying more attention to my overall thoughts and less to the actual events of the drama.
mianhaeyo
ibisfeather
ep.36 so satisfying. And like any good artwork, the whole opens up lots of space for talk rather than closing down discussions. Good old multivalence.
For all that I love engineering and waterworks I could have done without the sententious bit at the end. Way too State Policy for me.
I was happy with an end shortly before that, like a decorative knot, with love, freedom and responsibility all drawn in. Personal waterworks ongoing.
Wonderful to watch this with others here.
ibisfeather
Decided I wont write a review, there are already over a hundred posted. So I am released from my rules (dont read reviews if I am going to write one myself) to read some of the MDL reviews. There is one which points out that the granary plots are absurd. Well yes. Always nice to remember what I was happily forgetting.
monmor
@ibisfeather I agree with you that there is a large fantasy component to this world. I was thinking it was only loosely.Based on the three kingdoms era but now that I research it more it may have been in the han period.
As others have wondered, I am now fascinated by the idea that there is no bureaucratic class in this drama. How did they get anything done? or not? Does this reflect A transition In rulers historically? Or is it mostly in service of the plot?
monmor
I went Back to the source material out of curiosity about the time period. It is a certain period within the han honesty according to the first chapter. That may not matter at all to the meaning of the drama but it arouses my curiosity about the times.
Welmaris
@ibisfeather, you have introduced me to a new word: sententious. I imagine I will use it in future commentary on Cdramas. Thanks!
I wept like a baby in ep.5 when QM and her maids were left outside in the pouring rain for three days. That is when I first knew I would love the show.
When I realized I was sitting through the opening credits every episode again, I knew I was completely done for.
WS’ Mom still hasnt completely redeemed herself in my eyes.
(Not sure how to handle spoilers in an open thread..just in the first few eps?)
@ibisfeather,
For now, just write the Episode number on top of your post before the spoiler. That way, readers can decide whether to continue reading your commentary or skip it till later.
I don’t know how many other posters will join you. If there’s a bunch of you, then I can start separating threads, i.e., Eps 1 to 6, Eps 7 to 12, and so on.
EPISODE 5
Yes, the rain scene gave us viewers just the right amount of heart twinges. I admired QM’s patience and rationality. She assumed that he was delayed in calling them inside the gates because he couldn’t settle the in-fighting among relatives about her joining the clan. If I were QM, I would have been reading the riot act if I were made to wait outside — without water or food! — for more than an hour.
His relatives be damned.
I admired her servants, especially the chubby one, because they got soaked when they went out to pull the tarps down and yet, by some miracle, they didn’t catch a cold. 😂
I was annoyed with his generals. They should have been horse-whipped for inaction. Couldn’t they have done something to make the ladies comfortable in that tiny wagon?
But the sadistic streak in me enjoyed very much the escalation of miseries for QM. First, it was the deluge of rain. Next came her fever. Then the eviction and the letter of divorce. And then, there’s the face of scheming cousin who had refused QM entrance to the city in the first place.
To top it all, the chubby maid begged the generals, on her hands and knees, to rescue her mistress QM and the generals didn’t budge. Her reasoning was on point, “Even if the Lord Wei intends to divorce her, he should not let her die because of it.”
We could sense that things were about to fall apart because there was just chaos everywhere.
Naturally, WS’ entrance — in a flowing black cape, with lights shining behind him, and on a galloping horse no less — made him look like the avenging hero of our dreams on his way to rescue the gravely ill heroine.
Oh, the drama! 👏👏👏👏
Episode 5.
I found it a stretch to believe that WS wouldn’t know that the women were out there, because there would have been a buzz around the palace and his advisor, who is kind hearted, would have said something. But we needed the drama at the end to drive home his rescue and the subsequent scolding of his mother (who can’t and won’t read the room because she is silly and selfish) and the foster-daughter. Strike one for those two!
Episode 5, but can be general, too. 😂
@nrllee and I mentioned this in the other thread, “Heavenly Ever After” and I think it bears repeating here.
The way we see it, great kdramas and cdramas have persuasive elements in them. The Greek philosopher Aristotle listed ethos, logos, and pathos as three key elements of persuasion. That is, for us viewers to be persuaded — or convinced — to stick around for hours to watch a series, the story should have:
Ethos: the characters (the lead characters and/or the narrator) must be credible, authentic, and/or trustworthy. It’s easy to watch a heroine who starts off as naive but along the way becomes sophisticated, hardened, even cynical. But it’s difficult to watch a madwoman (say, Mr Rochester’s wife in the attic) portrayed as a heroine, trying to convince us that she’s right in her mind and actions, while the rest of the world is crazy.
In this particular Cdrama, it’s easy to like QM (or Man Man) because she’s sensible in her approach, convincingly so. She has every reason to fear and hate WS because of his vengeful, destructive bent. But she tries to find a chink in his armor so she can save her world. This is her bravery at work. That’s the reason I stuck around after Ep 1.
Logos: The story must have logic, or a modicum of it. I can suspend my disbelief for some time, but it’s taxing on my brain cells to set aside my critical thinking for hours on end just to view a show.
So, the 3 day, 2 night exposure to rain of our female lead was doable for me because the whole scene really took only about 20 minutes of playtime. Had it stretched to an hour, I would’ve skipped or fast-forwarded it.
I admit though that when we were told of the elapsed time, it quickly registered on me that no woman could pee outdoors in the pouring rain so how could QM and her maids survive 72 hours in their carriage with full bladders?
I’d like to think that WS was so caught up with work issues that he forgot about his new bride. After all, he’s been a bachelor all his life, fighting in the battlefields, so he wasn’t accustomed to checking in on the health and home life of a family member. And to his credit, he did assign the task of welcoming QM home to his cousin.
At any rate, this rain incident made a nice contrast to future episodes when he would leave work to come home and have meals with QM. He was being “domesticated.”
Ethos: The story must have emotional appeal to compel us to stick around. Unfortunately, for many cdrama and kdrama enthusiasts, they’re only focused on the ethos of the story. 😂
Great that this show is being discussed. Thank you @Packmule. I am enjoying your commentary.
Ever the impatient viewer, I have finished the show and this discussion will allow me to enjoy afresh and enjoy moments I missed too.
The chubby maid is well known in China for her regular role on the Hello Saturday variety show. She’s a name in her own right and her presence in the cast also signals the contemporary touches in the plot – some very knowing ‘meta humour’, for instance.
Episode 6 SPOILER meets Take Note
For fans of Moon Lovers Scarlet Heart (both the Chinese and Korean versions) there is a brief nod to a famous scene with a cape in the rain. In this show it involves chubby maid and chubby General. It’s in the first 4 minutes – watch from 3′ 19′. Blink and you miss it – but it is there! There are other modern day cultural references scattered throughout which create that wry/knowing distance from the historic context.
@packmule3, What follows may sound didactic — my background is in classical studies (history and poetry rather than philosophy) but believe me, I have forgotten most detailed knowledge at this point. For me its just fun to dive into using big-concepts as a common language.
Yes, pathos is what hooks c/kdrama viewers — they often get it confused with ethos and make comments about the believability of characters which only demonstrate their limited experiential knowledge.
Just wanted to say about ethos — it is also connected to communal ethics/community beliefs, esp. in cdrama. I love that the question ‘what makes a great ruler’ is as powerful for judging cdrama as pathos is for kdrama. I call it my secret greedy pleasure because it takes a lot of reading of real Asian ‘advice to the ruler’ texts to automatically use confucian/or sometimes modern ethical questions as one of the keys to enjoyment.
Have been talking to monmor abt some of the delays in the romance storyline. I opined that we are constantly being diverted from the marriage’s consummation so as to admire the ability of our pair to fit in any kind of intimacy in between the pressing issues of rulership, and that that clear understanding of those responsibilities is part of the ‘virtue’ QM so clearly demonstrates.
Love it.
Episode 5
@Kate,
I saw that scene when the chubby General covered the chubby maid with his cape in a sweet attempt to shield her from the rain and I knew instantly that it was an homage to Moon Lovers. 😂😂
But all I could envision was skinny IU and skinny Lee Joongi because I never saw the original cdrama.
Thanks for the tidbit in the chubby maid’s meta references. Will keep an eye out for them (not that I know much about Chinese humor 😂😂).
@Ibisfeather , pm3 I am enjoying your exchange about logos, pathos, and ethos.
I posted over on the first impressions thread but maybe it would have been better here?
🙂 Methinks that corollary to the question “what makes a great ruler” is “what makes a great commoner or citizen.”
I notice that in many of these pseudo-historical romances (what’s the equivalent of “sageuks” in cdramas?) the citizenry is often depicted as
a) simple folks have simple wants, i.e., give them food and shelter, and they’ll be obedient and passive masses,
b) simple folks don’t seek upward mobility in society or an upgrade in material possessions.
c) simple folks can’t come up with their own solutions to the problem and must rely in benevolent rulers to fix them.
Take for instance the drought and famine in the Rongjun (Episode 11 onwards). Although it’s admirable of QM to take the lead and look for an alternative grain that’s drought-resistant and has higher yield, I find it odd that the people themselves weren’t clamoring about their situation, demanding solutions, and/or coming up with their own ideas. There’s this passivity — or passive ACCEPTANCE of their conditions — and reliance on big government to fix problems and provide for their needs that I *personally* disagree with.
In this sense, I see propaganda in the cdramas and “culture molding” of the unwary viewers.
Okay, will transfer your post over here, @monmor.
TY
Moving @monmor’s post over here. –pm3
****
I am vey much enjoying this drama despite my initial hesitation about his seeming like a violent character.
@Fern I love her character- so thoughtful, considerate, strategic and able to take charge.(and sassy). It has been fun to see his befuddlement!
Episodes 29-31
It is an interesting question whether to burden/ Ask for Help from her cousin. I think I would have out of desperation for my husband. The female lead though Is measured and thoughtful. She deals with the situation by relying on herself. That took a lot of personal strength and intelligence. And the willingness to slog through the wilderness in a long dress!
It feels like Viki is purposely frustrating me😁. There are 2 episodes today for me to watch, though so that is good.
@packmule3 totally agree on the history cdrama culture molding. Passive citizenry who need to be led. sageuk feels more nuanced in some dramas, altho in the weird way that fantasy reflects and objects to current realities. Will stop there with politics.
@Packmule,
Fab that they did that with the cape scene eh?!
I like the way the ‘meta humour’ is so lightly signalled (rather than with the heavy use of comedy incidental music). Other characters/scenes have these ‘throw away’ moments too which you will no doubt pick up on.
Thinking of IU there is a brief little dance in one scene that made me think of her birthday party dance for the youngest prince in Moon lovers! Similar humour – although I doubt the writer was thinking of that particular k-drama.
It just dawned on me with this drama that liu yuning does his own horseback riding.
How I feel about him riding a horse, Especially riding a horse in the rainy dark night Belongs on shallow island.
ep.34-5.
Trying to be general but no matter what I say
its A SPOILER
Kdrama formula has the advantage of relieving anxiety. Even if a variation is used the fact of a predictable timing structure softens anguish — while the music draws the sting.
Cdrama is not the same animal. Mainly, its looking to produce grander effect; fear, terror, anguish. Here I am nearly at the end of PoB, a place where in kdrama we might be well into troubles but they would have been expected ones and their methods of resolution are actually fun to watch..
Now all the crazy loose ends I thought were left behind in PoB have all wound up into one tragic trap. I do love heroics, and these have even more power given how much fear we feel….the Ladies of Wei! The Lord and the Canal! This is grand drama indeed.
A total aside, NOT a spoiler perse…Another classical trope in the juxtaposition of Manman’s labor and the soldier’s labors…sometimes the classical chorus opines indirectly that for women giving birth is as dangerous as battle is for young men.
And modern mortality statistics do indeed bear this out because the danger of uncontrolled bleeding is the nightmare of the battlefield medic and of the attending physician at birth (the actual area of the inner surface of the womb once the placenta is removed is a wound too big to be staunched if it were on the outside of a soldiers body).
Women are tougher than men physically, thank goodness. (I worked as a night clerk in the emergency ward at Brigham and Womens Hospital while in college)
@packmule3, I just posted a long musing about TPoL’s civic structure on the Ep. 3 thread. In short, I think that the show is trying to draw parallels between marriage and societal responsibilities, but doesn’t do a good job of it. As presented, the relationship of lords to their peasantry is more parent-child than marriage of partners.
As for how marriage is presented in TPoL, we only have one “good” marriage as an example, and in that one there’s imbalance of power. QM’s life and well-being can be taken away with a word from WS, or through his neglect. He threatened to kill her for revenge, or to raise his military’s morale. When he delegated her care to family and put her out of his mind, he failed to protect her from almost-lethal harm. With his grandfather and father taken from him at a young age, he hasn’t seen a healthy marriage modeled for him, so he hasn’t a clue how he should behave in his relationship with his bride. (It seems the closest healthy marriage model to him is his advisor’s, but that is only briefly alluded to a couple of times.) QM does most of the work creating a positive marriage environment. She learned healthy family dynamics from her loving step-mother (step-aunt?), and proper political theory from her grandfather. Even when deep love develops between WS and QM, the imbalances remain: her life is in his hands, his marriage’s well-being is tenaciously crafted by her. In their relationship, she does the heavy lifting of proving her value, over and over. Despite the desire and mutual respect WS and QM develop for each other as lovers and partners, a twist of fate or change in attitude may bring their “good” marriage to ruin. In my mind a healthy marriage is a balancing act, both partners contributing through thick and thin, and support isn’t withdrawn when mistakes are made.
For me, the parallels between governance and marriage are more along the lines of the psychology of the individuals. We see how the lord of wei learns a more two way cooperative approach to marriage and, at the same time, promotes infrastructure for co operative trade.
On the other hand, several characters are so hell bent on revenge and power that they manipulate, control through threats, extortion and /or sex and have no concern for their subjects. The lady You, consumed by personal hatred, wants to anniilate the Weis.
The Lord of Wei gives up his revenge plans for the sake of his marriage and his people and works towards giving them the means to take care of themselves through successful farming and trade. Her family and I think his also take in refugees where others kill them.
A parallel here is that the Lord of Wei allows both his wife and his people to have subjectivity, whereas the evil characters do not have any compassion for their subjects.
Both her grandfather and his grandmother serve as beacons of good. Lord Wei’s brother, shows his loyalty to his upstanding grandmother and rejects his evil father/grandfather. Her sister gives the ultimate sacrifice to prevent war, loss and cruelty.
So a time of peace ensues poiticall and two babies harbinger the future.
As I write I think about @Ibisfeather’s question of what makes a good ruler.
I realize I barely mentioned the female lead in my post above. I have written and thought about her a lot. She embodies many traits of leadership. She has good emotional control,takes responsibilty and is a strategic thinker. She is wise in her interactions with others and, as emphasozed in the drama, has true concern for the people.
I realized I left some spoilers in my longer comment above. Since I have finished the drama I was paying more attention to my overall thoughts and less to the actual events of the drama.
mianhaeyo
ep.36 so satisfying. And like any good artwork, the whole opens up lots of space for talk rather than closing down discussions. Good old multivalence.
For all that I love engineering and waterworks I could have done without the sententious bit at the end. Way too State Policy for me.
I was happy with an end shortly before that, like a decorative knot, with love, freedom and responsibility all drawn in. Personal waterworks ongoing.
Wonderful to watch this with others here.
Decided I wont write a review, there are already over a hundred posted. So I am released from my rules (dont read reviews if I am going to write one myself) to read some of the MDL reviews. There is one which points out that the granary plots are absurd. Well yes. Always nice to remember what I was happily forgetting.
@ibisfeather I agree with you that there is a large fantasy component to this world. I was thinking it was only loosely.Based on the three kingdoms era but now that I research it more it may have been in the han period.
As others have wondered, I am now fascinated by the idea that there is no bureaucratic class in this drama. How did they get anything done? or not? Does this reflect A transition In rulers historically? Or is it mostly in service of the plot?
I went Back to the source material out of curiosity about the time period. It is a certain period within the han honesty according to the first chapter. That may not matter at all to the meaning of the drama but it arouses my curiosity about the times.
@ibisfeather, you have introduced me to a new word: sententious. I imagine I will use it in future commentary on Cdramas. Thanks!