Oli, I like your post so I’m going to post it in full under “Bitch Talk.” I don’t want it to be lost in the comment box.
I think others should read it too to get another perspective on this Fate/GGG. Thank you for taking time to write this out. 😀 Don’t worry about the length. Keep them coming.
I’ll only edit for spacing and paragraphing — to make it easier on the eyes. If you’re going to edit your original comment box, just write it here as follow-up.
pm3
*********************************
I think the problem with SunMi is not that she’s superstitious but that she needs something (a powerful thing) to guarantee that he’ll still love her after the GGG is removed. Fate is not necessarily needed. Whatever guarantee would have worked for her probably. Fate just happened to be the tool she found.
But love is no fun like that. With or without the GGG, to give your love only when you are sure the other really loves you (and will continue to love you in the future) is just meh. There’s nothing grand in that. But then again she’s been lonely all her life and I suppose a person like her would not jump into relationships she does not trust to be mutual and long lasting.
The painful thing about her clinging to the fate thing is that she does not trust Oh Gong’s love at all. With all the things he’s told her she accepts the relationship mostly because of the false reassurance of what she thinks is the love bell. The scene when she tells him about it when he’s on her bed is annoying and really disappointing (for the viewers and for the monkey too probably). What she does not get is that however artificial the cause of his love might be (the GGG, assuming there were no feelings before – though there might have been) his pain is real (like Summer Fairy said) and his love is real too (even if it may not be in the future).
It may not have been that real in the beginning (when he was going back and front between saying “I love you” and also that he can’t wait to get rid of the GGG – when his reason and emotions were not in sync because he thought his feelings were fake, because of the GGG). But the monkey grew out of that. He no longer really thinks his feelings are fake and rationally he only chooses steps to keep loving her. He is not sure how he’d feel without the GGG so he does not want that to be removed but even if he’s unsure about the future in the present he’s accepted his emotions rationally.
I think it’s pretty obvious the feelings are real and will keep existing with or without the GGG. Does it really matter what the reason is for one’s affection for a certain thing/person once that bond is already formed? If the reason to start something is removed will the bond break? Because I don’t think so.
It kinda reminds me of your post about the cotton candy scene. When Oh Gong says
“OG: Are you stupid? This will still exist. Even if not for Geumganggo’s sake, what’s sweet is sweet, and what you like is still what you like.”
you wrote
“>>He’s almost being scornful and derisive here. Yet his blunt words still thrill SM. Again, she’s being pathetic. He’s only stating a fact (i.e., that sweet is sweet regardless of changing circumstances) but she finds hope in his words. She quickly swallows the cotton candy, and then finds a flimsy excuse to leave him so she can savor his words in private.”
But that is not how I felt the scene. I understood why she finds hope in his words because what I was hearing is exactly that: that his feelings for her will still exist. What you like is still what you like means at least the memory of his affection will be real. The moments in which he’s happy with her (because he loves her, because of the GGG or whatever, who cares) will still be moments he liked. But also if no GGG is there to force him to love her in the future, will his affection just disappear? Just because it started artificially? Does it even matter?
Son Oh Gong doesn’t care anymore why he loves her, does not care about a life without loving her, doesn’t care that he might not suffer after the GGG is removed and he could kill her without pain. He could not be in any pain after she dies but he wants none of that. He wants to love her and he wants her safe.
But SunMi STILL cares that his love could be fake, that’s why the fate bs is relevant to her. That was annoying.
There’s another thing with the coffin and SunMi accepting to sleep in it to avoid the fate of the death bell while Oh Gong is calling bullshit on all that and will fight whoever to change it.
I think SunMi can sort of be excused because Oh Gong has a solid plan B. If he does not manage to f up Heaven’s plan and the fate they gave them and have no one die, he’ll be the one to be killed. And he has no doubt that he can achieve that. And with this plan B it’s easier to fight. It’s easier to be defiant in front of heaven when killing the person you love is not something you risk.
I don’t think SunMi can guarantee she has the power to make herself the one to be killed. Even if she’s Sam Jang, even if according to what she thinks, if she removes the GGG, OhGong won’t love her and she could get him to kill her with her blood. But she does not have the same confidence as Oh Gong. And it’s sort of understandable. He’s dealt with all sorts of things and as a trickster he knows how to manipulate whatever comes his way to get what he wants. He has experience there. She doesn’t.
So.. one could be annoyed at her lack of confidence and be in awe at his defiance (which I most definitely am) but their past/who they are makes it perfectly logical that they react the way they do. Both of them. So that’s why here I wasn’t bothered about SunMi trying to run from her fate instead of trying to change it. It’s not that her love is weak and is not willing to fight for it but that for her the risk of having him killed is more real.
I only want to add that there’s something in episode 16 that gives SunMi a different perspective on the consequences of the fate the death bell announced. But I’m not sure you’ve seen that episode so I won’t say more now
I enjoyed reading your oli’s points in the comment section but it’s good that it’s brough here do we can fully discuss it.
I have not commented so far when pm3 has been bashing JSM because I thought it’s unfair to judge her based on the circumstances. Let me elaborate.
First, we don’t live in a world where our blood can attract monsters or we have demons and deities as friends. Neither do we encounter supernatural situations where we can enter another world. Also we have real humans as relatives and friends. So from that perspective, I can understand why Sun Mi has a limited outlook at the world. Add to that, prior to the recent episode (15, 16? Forgot), she has been told and it was somehow proven that she caused bad luck. Her relatives thought so. I don’t know much about Korean culture but the Chinese believe that you can only see spirits if your spirit is weak, and when your luck is down. So with that in mind, when a person is told repeatedly she is the epitome of bad luck, it’s hard not to believe in luck. And believing in one’s luck itself is a superstition. It’s nothing factual. As a result, I can believe that Sun Mi’s character is superstitious and reliant on supernatural foretelling. And this was stemmed into her way before she met Oh Gong.
Also, besides Sun Mi, all the other demons and whatnots also don’t think they should defy what the death bell has decreed which is fate. When Oh Gong announced that he wanted to marry Sun Mi, Ma Wang’s reply was “but that was not match made in heaven.” So even they believed in fate. So Oh Gong is the exception here.
I will describe Sun Mi as someone who may be strong outside but emotionally, she is weak like melted butter. For someone like that, I can definitely believe them believing in fate. I’m just surprised someone, a human, didn’t come along and string her emotions and cheat her of her money. She is someone I believe who will lose herself in love.
Oli said – Son Oh Gong doesn’t care anymore why he loves her, does not care about a life without loving her, doesn’t care that he might not suffer after the GGG is removed and he could kill her without pain. He could not be in any pain after she dies but he wants none of that. He wants to love her and he wants her safe.
——-
That’s why summer fairy once told Oh Gong that Sun Mi wanted sincerity. To be sincere means from coming from the heart. This is something Sun Mi wants. However, right now, Oh Gong’s love is from GGG. To Sun Mi, it matters that his LOVE is from his heart. There’s a difference between sincerely loving her and loving her because he wants to. Since Sun Mi is a person whose values sincerity, I reckon she needs to know that Oh Gong’s love stems from himself, not from GGG.
I feel like I’m opening a can of worms here because wanting to love and really loving – it’s a fine line between the two. We can argue like crazy about this and I can see Oli’s point. But I also can understand why Sun Mi has no confidence when love is not rooted from the heart but something else. There’s always seed of doubt. Plus The fact tht Oh Gong didn’t want to remove the bracelet further drove down the point that he is also not confident of loving her once the GGG is removed.
I don’t know if I’m making any sense but basically, the difference is sun mi wants love from the heart, not desire to love.
Go ahead and spoil it for me. I’ve no problems. It’s my fault for not watching it yet.
ermm.. what happens is that the protector of a previous Sam Jang appears and while remembering her sad face SunMi ends up saying “But, if one disappeared and one was left behind alone, I think, the one left behind will be really sad, and suffer a lot. To the extend that the time to live on will become endlessly long.” Oh Gong does not understand what she’s saying but I think she’s saying that if one of them has to die it will be worse if she does since Oh Gong will live longer, possibly forever. So I think instead of hoping for the fate of the love bell in which Oh Gong will love her without the GGG, she’ll start being relieved that Oh Gong’s love is fake and will disappear once the GGG is removed (I don’t think this is the case but she believes it). Or, if she ends up believing his love will still be there, she will surely at least stop pulling stunts like choosing the coffin. Because that is a way of her dying and if she meant it to be a noble act it’s not. Especially since she left the GGG on Oh Gong, she just gave him an eternity of suffering without her. But she didn’t really think her actions through at the time – that part can be forgiven because she had just found out about their doomed fate and was offered an opportunity to avoid it. She chose it without understanding fully what it implied. But that was because of the shock of the moment maybe. Now she understands more and I think it is even possible that SunMi might end up accepting for OhGong’s plan B too. For her that would be a really selfless act
I’ll die so you can live seems like the sacrifice but is it really? Is it like that for people like Oh Gong or Ma Wang who form attachments forever and their suffering will be endless?
I am so glad this comment was included in Bitch Talk. I loved reading it. I am going to try and comment on it even though the blog does not seem to like me LOL.
I’d been quiet because I didn’t agree with JSM bashing(since I understand her POV) but I understood your POV and was too lazy to defend her. My bad. XD You know how long my posts get when I really start writing and I was trying to avoid that due to pure laziness.
Just to add another defense, this whole superstitious characteristic is an Asian thing, so I never looked down on JSM because of it. It’s prominent in every Asian culture/country. For example: In my house, we are not allowed to clip our nails after dark(the logical reason is that in olden times, people needed oil lamps to light up their rooms and due to poverty, the oil was costly and hence meagerly used.) It’s the same with sweeping or cleaning the house (Same reason, easier to do with natural light than waste it on oil.) There are many more but I won’t bore you guys. But the problem is, people act up when we give logical reasons so the ancestors resorted to fear/superstition and it’s been passed down. Don’t clip your nails or something bad will happen. Don’t clean the room after dark or something even worse will happen. Even though I explained it to my mom, she still won’t break the fear. Superstition is just a way to control you.
Anyway, yes Asians are a superstitious bunch, not just JSM but everyone. Even Summer Fairy told JSM that love match and death match cannot be changed, hence JSM’s trepidation and utter belief in it. Can a mere mortal actually fight it? She HAD no powers to fight it. SOG has the power to defy the heavens. It’s a bit unfair to compare the two and their POV when one is a mere mortal with limited years and one is an immortal mischievous being who always does what he wants. TBH, I firmly believe that the previous SOG would have just accepted the death bells fate and decided to kill her first before she could kill him. The only reason he is hell bent on defying the “fate” is because he fell in love with her and he has the power to try and change it. I personally don’t think he will because JSM dying is a given, if not now than from old age and SOG will be left alone and mourning for a long long time. That is not a happy ending at all.
Happy ending would be both of them becoming deities and being together forever.(hinted from the title montage that airs at the start of the show. Mawang, SOG and JSM’s[in the middle, holding her umbrella] marble white statues, proving their deity status.) And for that to happen, JSM has to die.
@oli: THat’s is an interesting interpretation of the bar scene. I never really thought of it like that. When I saw the scene, I assumed she meant life would be long and hard for her when/if he dies because her feelings are real and from her perspective, his are not. It will give a positive twist to the love story if she realizes that his feelings are real too and his pain on her death will be excruciatingly endless. We already saw how anguished and furious he was when ASN informed him that JSM was dead.
This is what we actually need to get a JSM fighting the fate together with SOG. The GGG needs to come off and she needs to know that his feelings are real because right now, everyone and not just her, believe that SOG’s pain and love will disappear with GGG. This is why JSM would rather sacrifice herself than live with the pain of her killing him.
Dammit, I wrote an essay again. LOL.
Holy crap, my comment got published. :O Is that what the blog wants? Me to post rarely so I am not considered a bot trying to spam? 😛
Hahaha. I was waiting for you to post so I can retrieve your post from the trash or spam boxes.
Got to run. Big court day.
I’m gonna apologize for more spoilers but I’ll talk about ep16 again. “I assumed she meant life would be long and hard for her when/if he dies because her feelings are real and from her perspective, his are not.” It’s simpler if she meant what you’re saying with this line “But, if one disappeared and one was left behind alone, I think, the one left behind will be really sad, and suffer a lot.” If he disappeared (not necessarily died but just left because the GGG is removed and he no longer would want her) then she’d be miserable.
BUT.. I guess I saw in that that she was beginning to understand how horrible it would be for OhGong after she dies (if that’s how they end) because, just before she says that, she remembers the sad face of the guardian of the previous Sam Jang. Oh Gong just told her that that couple got a happily ever after and became deities but instead of hope and relief she just remembers how sad the guardian looked. I think she understood in that moment he lied to her. Or at least she suspects that that past couple ended tragically. She’s practically narrating the story of the previous guardian here: “But, if one disappeared and one was left behind alone […]”. And since that person is practically the parallel to Oh Gong in the story of the previous SamJang, would she not make the connection and understand also how awful it would be for him if she died? Would she not understand her choosing the coffin/(another form of dying) would end up in OhGong being as miserable as the guardian of the previous SamJang?
Or maybe I’m just seeing in that scene more than there is because that’s how I’d like things to be.. I found it cool that it looked like she understood the story of the guardian without actually being told anything (even worse, being told some happy ever after lie)
Oli said – And since that person is practically the parallels to Oh Gong in the story of the previous SamJang, would she not make the connection and understand also how awful it would be for him if she died? Would she not understand her choosing the coffin/(another form of dying) would end up in OhGong being as miserable as the guardian of the previous SamJang?
But you also pointed that unlike the previous Sam Jang, oh Gong now has the GGG to protect him. Once removed, his feelings will be gone so he won’t be as lonely and miserable as the first guardian. Even if as you said, he would still have the good memories, they will fade easily if no feelings are involved. And we know that Sun Mi still has doubts about his love sans GGG.
For someone insecure about feelings, the fact that Oh Gong didn’t want to remove the GGG also brings home the point that even Oh Gong is also not confident that he will still love her, from her pt of view.
yep, SunMi does not believe OhGong’s love will still be there without the GGG so she probably only begins to understand how bad it would be IF his love would be real.
I do think however it’s more than good memories that remain. I’m not an expert in how the brain works but I assume that if you think/feel something for a long time associations are made in the brain and those linger. They stick and are not easy to get rid of. Would it matter how they were made? If they were forced by the GGG for example?
Anyway, I’m sure the feelings most probably formed at least in part naturally. I’m sure it wasn’t only the GGG, I’m sure in part they were genuine. But no one can know because the manipulators in heaven made a situation in which OhGong can’t be sure of his feelings. Plus they lie so.. can we really trust what they’ve told him about the GGG?
I’m not sure it’s intended but everytime I hear Hwayugi have this “you’re pretty/am I pretty?” as a sort of code for love I think of why people fall in love. The GGG is the reason OhGong loves SunMi so she’s looking to see if other reasons exist since that will be proof that his love is not fake and it could exist/form without the GGG. Why do people fall in love if no GGG is forcing them? Some do because they find someone pretty. If he found her pretty without the GGG his love could be genuine, she thinks. Sure OhGong doesn’t love SunMi because she’s pretty. She’s pretty to him because he loves her (or at least that’s what he thinks). He’s said that more than once and also said it to Asanyeo in SunMi’s body. Even if it was the SAME body.
But what I’m saying with the fact that if the GGG disappears the feelings still remain is that.. in a normal love, one that starts because one finds the other pretty (let’s say), will the feelings disappear because the “pretty” (GGG) disappears? Once we get older. It can happen but it doesn’t have to. And sure, maybe it doesn’t because relationships that last are not only based on looks.
But what if all the other reasons you love someone disappear? If you fell in love because of someone’s wit/charm/nature and they end up in a coma or their personality changes a bit because of Alzheimer or something (the GGG, that thing that made you love someone, is removed) do the feelings disappear?
And one more thing about his feelings being fake (I’m starting to feel like a spammer): what bothered me about SunMi still believing OgGong’s love is fake is that.. it looked pretty obvious that the GGG could not control his mind but only his emotions. So that’s why he was like that in the beginning, saying “because I love you” but also plotting to end that love. But once he started wanting to love her, once he started cherishing his emotions and want no future without them, how could the feelings still be considered fake?
Oli, I thought of that too. However, real love was there before another partner falls sick. So the love in there must have grown a lot more. And because there’s love, it is easy to be tolerable and to put up with whatever that comes may. For the otp, real love was not there in the first place.
Since you used beauty as an example, I’ll continue to use that. In this case, the GGG is like physical beauty. Say, a man falls in love with a woman because of her beauty. He may or may not have developed real feelings. We don’t know. The love is only put to the test when the woman loses her beauty. And using Hwayugi’s timeline, it’s less than a year since they never change season so it’s not a long period for true love to develop. While it’s true the man may continue to love the woman because of her other traits, he may also begin to lose interest in her. And when that happens, he may still treasure the memories spent with her, or just feel disgusted that he once kissed her. Likewise, the same thing with Oh Gong and GGG. I can think of so many other examples if we don’t want to use physical beauty. Like a love spell. Or even drugs.
I really want the GGG to come off.
Lol. Just keep on posting. Don’t worry about spammers; I already blocked a real one, a tshirt vendor from China.😂
Will post later when I get home. Will sprint through Episode 16 and post comments.
Thanks for keeping the blog alive while I was gone. 🐒😍