Part 1 is here.
The third dead person is Chansung’s mother.
Now, she’s a pretty interesting character because the Hong sisters don’t come out directly that Chansung was an unwanted baby.
See here: compared with the CEO ghost and Manwol, her links to the living should have been the closest. After all, the CEO ghost had a granddaughter, Manwol has a friend whom she treated as family, but she had a son, Chansung. It’s sad then that, of all three people, she was the one with the least to say to the person she left behind.
This was their conversation at the departure point:
CS: (bows) I’m sorry to have made you wait.
Mom: Thank you for coming.
CS: The pictures in the book, may I keep them?
Mom: Will you do that? I…am so…sorry.
CS does not reply. She moves to go the car and looks at him one last time.
CS: Farewell. Mother.
Chansung didn’t see it coming. When he had that chance meeting with the CEO ghost’s daughter and granddaughter, he saw the children book that Sulli brought along. She eagerly showed her picture as a young child with her grandpa. He must have treasured that photograph as he doted on her. And he must have been equally loved by Sulli because she sent back a new photograph with a loving message on the back.
Hence when he heard that the library had a Principal ghost attached to a book, he assumed that the Principal ghost treasured the book and didn’t want to part from it.
Their dialogue:
CS: A principal of an elementary school passed away recently and the family donated it. The principal must have treasured it.
MW: I don’t know about that. Most people easily throw away what they treasure and risk their lives to protect what they want to hide. I’m sure the ghost is stressed that people keep coming to pull the book out because of the rumor.
We, bitches, already know from previous examples, that the ghost stories are big hints to the character development. We should be able to infer that Manwol’s words relates to Chansung’s personal history. His mother easily threw him away, so now she’s risking her safe passage to the afterlife by staying in the library and protecting the secret she’s hiding. She’s stressed out because people might see the photographs that were left in the book.
And we should also be able to connect the reason Chansung’s dad wanted him to go to the elementary school in that neighborhood. Here’s Chansung explanation why he’s familiar with the library.
CS: … I used to come here often with my father when I was young. The food was good back then, too.
MW: You used to live here when you were young?
CS: My father wanted me to go the elementary school in this neighborhood. He couldn’t find a room to rent because the rent here was so expensive, but we came here often. It was cheap and delicious.
MW: Did you live with your father since the beginning?
CS: Yes….
His mother was an elementary school principal. After her death, her family donated her books to that library. Chansung and his dad frequented that library to eat. He wanted Chansung to go to the elementary school near the library. He tried to look for a place to rent there but he couldn’t afford any.
It doesn’t take a genius to see that the Chansung’s dad was trying to engineer contact between Chansung and his mother. Either by accident (i.e., chance meeting in the library) or by design (i.e., enrollment at his mother’s school), he wanted them to encounter each other. And he failed. There were three pictures in the book: a baby photograph, a picture of a toddler with the Principal Ghost, and a picture of Chansung shortly before he and his dad left for the US. The address in the US was written on the back.
There were no more pictures after that.
That’s why the Principal ghost didn’t recognize her own son Chansung in the library. Chansung instantly knew who she was when he saw his picture there. He had a duplicate in his room. The camera focused on it when he accidentally bumped the photograph when he was sweeping the floor.
Chekhov’s gun alert! lol.
But what I like about that moment was the sound effect. The rhythmic ticking of a clock gradually sped up before the moment of truth. The Principal ghost was surprised that Chansung could see her.
PG: It seems you’re able to see me.
CS: Yes, I can see you. Why are you doing this here?
PG: I don’t want others to see this book.
CS: Is there something you treasure in there? (no answer) Something you wish to hide?
Her non-response to his first question was MEANT to indicate that NO, there was nothing she treasured in there. Her non-response to his second question meant YES, there was something she wished to hide.
PG: Can you destroy what’s in the book for me?
CS: (eagerly) I’ll help. To do so, I need to pull out this book.
He flipped through the pages of the book and took out three photos from the middle of the book. The Principal ghost was staring intently at the pictures, too. Once he flipped the toddler picture to look at picture of the elementary school kid, the Principal ghost closed her eyes for a brief moment.
Chansung was shocked to see the picture and stared at her. The Principal ghost looked at him, then blinked and glanced down. “It’s the past that I’ve been hiding.” Her eye movement signified embarrassment. She couldn’t meet his glance. The impression we got here was that she was embarrassed that she had a child whom she gave up when he was toddler and she last heard of when he was aged 10.
Then, she looked up again and said, “My family shouldn’t come to know this. Please destroy it.” Her unblinking eyes meant that she was deadly serious about this. The family must absolutely not know that she had a child.
Later, Chansung would unburden himself to Manwol, “I haven’t seen her since I was very young so I didn’t know she passed away. Also, I didn’t know my father sent her these photos. You were right. She didn’t treasure it; she was hiding it. It was true. She didn’t want me.”
Manwol got mad at him. She’s really angry at herself because of her helplessness. She was frustrated that she wasn’t able to avert this situation and spare Chansung from the pain. If she could, she would.
MW: I told you that you’ll see disturbing things. Things that are useless to know and will hurt you. Why? Am I wrong? Are you going to say that you liked meeting her because she’s your family? Would you like to escort her to the hotel like a filial son?
She was indignant for him. She didn’t think it was right that he had to observe the niceties of etiquette (i.e., say that he liked meeting her when he clearly didn’t). She didn’t think he should escort him to the hotel like a filial son either. She knows he’s weak-hearted and a pushover.
But she was also feeling guilt because she caused him to uncover this sad fact of his existence. He would have been happier not knowing the circumstances.
MW: Then, what do you want to do? You figured out this crappy fact because I made you see ghost. I should do something for you.
CS: I’m just..in a situation in which I met my mother for the first time, but can’t be happy about it, I’m just sad. Just let me grieve.
MW: (grabs to him then lets go) Forget it. Go.
Note here the similarity between Chansung and Manwol when she met Yeonwoo. They needed time to grieve. To come to terms with harsh realities.
Manwol returned to the bookshelves and took out the book again.
MW: If I finish reading this difficult book, will the answer emerge? A way to comfort a child whose own being and time spent together were denied?
And here’s ANOTHER meaning of the book “Being and Time.” The mother rejected his existence in her life. She didn’t want news about his well-being, his whereabouts, and his life after she’d cut off ties. It was as if he didn’t exist anymore in her eyes.
Now, since she erased Chansung’s presence in her life, she also a) annulled the time she spent with him as a new mother, b) nullified the time she could have spent with him when he was growing up, and c) rejected forever the possibility of knowing him as her son. Even if they were reincarnated together, they would have no connections because of her decision to renounce him.
Manwol closed the book and the ghost reappeared. I like the imagery here. When a person closes a book, it means she’s stopped considering the problem at hand. She’s had enough time to decide on her next action. Remember, she’d asked “Once I finish reading this difficult book, will the answer emerge?” Literally, she closed the book because she was done reading, and so, the ghost, or the answer, emerged.
MW: Are you worried that the secret you have been hiding will be revealed? Don’t worry. Your child doesn’t want that. (the ghost looked startled) That child is sad. I want to comfort him. I need you. I’ll take you to my hotel.
She’s doing this for Chansung. In her books, the Principal ghost should be made to “suffer continuously there” in the library but she was bringing her to the hotel so Chansung could have HIS closure.
It’s in this context then that I understood the whole departure conversation between the Principal ghost and the Chansung. She already knew that he was the son she left behind. But she’s getting on the limo so Chansung could have his proper closure. That was Manwol’s wish for him. She wasn’t doing this as a service for Chansung’s mother. She was doing this for Chansung’s sake.
CS: (bows) I’m sorry to have made you wait.
This is ironic. The Principal ghost didn’t have time to spare for her son and her son is now apologizing for making her wait.
Mom: Thank you for coming.
Yes, she should be grateful he came.
CS: The pictures in the book, may I keep them?
Mom: Will you do that?
Her face brightened here. She liked that idea.
Mom: (cont) I…am so…sorry.
Yes, she should be sorry because of the time she lost, she wasted, and, now, she regretted.
CS does not reply. She moves to go the car and looks at him one last time. After her car leaves, CS says goodbye.
CS: Farewell. Mother.
He only called her mother out of earshot.
That’s my interpretation of the whole encounter with Chansung’s mom. We first saw the “gold” standard or the CEO ghost’s affections for his granddaughter. Then, we saw the “tragic” version, with Manwol not being able to approach Yeonwoo. And now we get the “no” standards. 🙂
Seriously speaking, there’s one more thing that I must mention here. Chansung’s name.
CS: Do you know why my name is Chanseong? My father said he was the only one who wanted me to be born. He was sorry for me, so he named me Chan Seong. But he wasn’t good with Chinese characters. I became a shiny star.
Viki subbers kindly noted that Chanseong meant “to be in favor something” in Korean,
and that the misspelled Chinese characters where chan = shiny; seong = star.
Most viewers, when they saw this, probably high-fived themselves thinking, “Ah! There you go! I knew it! I’m brilliant! Shiny star! He’s the shining star to Manwol’s full moon.”
🙂
No. I say “Go deeper.” You should know by now that the Hong sisters are good at double meanings. I said, in my First Impressions, after watching two episodes, that Chansung’s name meant “agreement.”
It’s not true that ONLY Chansung’s dad wanted him born.
The ignored fact here is Chansung wasn’t aborted. The choice to give birth to a new life named Chansung was a JOINT agreement. His mother and his dad both agreed to have him together. The father couldn’t be “in favor” of his birth all by himself because the birth still needed the mother, to become a reality. She must have been “in favor of” Chansung, too.
His very existence attests that his mother wasn’t that depraved to kill him when he was at the most vulnerable. He was allowed “TO PASS BY” unharmed in her womb, as Ma Go would say.
Let’s not forget too that his mother had a picture with him as a toddler.
But sometime after the second photograph was taken, and for some unknown reason, she decided to remove herself from the picture and live a separate life apart from them. Whatever led her to divorce herself from her own child, she must have suffered too, every day, being a Principal in an ELEMENTARY school. She would have been reminded of her own son in her daily interactions with the other children.
Lastly, the Principal ghost hid the pictures in Heidegger’s “Being and Time.” lol. If she really didn’t care about her son Chansung, she should have tossed those pictures away… or burned them just like the serial killer burned all the keepsakes or “trophies” of the murder out of fear that somebody would find them.
That’s what the Principal should have done while she was alive: get rid of those photos.
But instead she deliberately hid those pictures in that book she knew nobody would bother read. lol.
Something tells me that, contrary to Manwol’s suggestion, she DID treasure those pictures because she kept them hidden all these years. Then at her death, her topmost priority was to keep the pictures secret from her family. Instead of crossing over to the afterworld, she stuck around.
But why bother? What could her family do to her? They couldn’t stone her to death for having a secret child 30 years ago when she was already dead. Why would she give a rat’s patootie about her reputation? Why was she so adamant that her FAMILY didn’t see the pictures? And how was she able to hide her pregnancy, the birth, and the toddler from her family? Didn’t she see them in two or three years?
But hmmm…
Is it possible that she was keeping a secret to protect somebody else? Somebody who’s still alive…like that son she refused to have any contact with for decades? lol.
Note: I took a second look at those pictures. They appeared frayed at the edges.
The ignored fact here is Chansung wasn’t aborted.
⬆️ That’s enough to say that CS was given life because he was loved by both his parents. Even though his Mother gave up on him a couple of years later. Thank you for this post.
I get too that MW wanted to do something for CS that’s why she did what she did and did the right thing for both of them. It’s just really sad but at least they got to say goodbye.
Right? Because he was given life, he was loved by both.
You know what else intrigues me? What did Chansung say to that serial killer/classmate that he hightailed it home? If Sanchez confronted the serial killer/classmate and wasn’t able to stop him, then how did Chansung stop him?
Yes. CS was loved by both his parents. 🙂
Oh I wondered about that too. What did CS say to serial killer/classmate for the classmate to go back straight home to Korea? Interesting.
Definitely the classmate is planning something to CS.
I was sad bcoz of Chanseong’s story was too short for his emotional development but I’m so glad to read more about it here. Thank you for your interpretation 🙂
You’re welcome.
Remember, when you break down the dialogue and then connect with the other developments in the episode, you’ll have a better overall perspective.
CS was blind-sided. He didn’t see it coming.
He was expecting a CEO ghost/happy granddaughter kind of story so he wasn’t ready to discover that the facts about his birth. But when you think about it, things don’t add up. He didn’t get the full story (and probably will never will) bec the Principal ghost left without explanation. To be fair, she wasn’t asking him to understand her anyway. She made the choice to walk away and she still felt that was the best choice.
Thanks All for your opinions and thoughts. I’m so intrigued … I want to find out if there was something special about CS that his mother had to hide him and separate herself from him. What made him Ma Go’s choice in the redemption of MW?
Rhetorical questions – unless anyone would like to hazard guesses
His father had all along known where CS’s mother was but never directly got them to meet. He might have known that there was a compelling reason for the separation, and yet he put CS in the way of maybe accidentally meeting his mum? Curious.
CS’s dad being a thief too is cause for interest. A girl who could become principal and a boy who became a thief … did they begin in the same social environment only to drift into different ones or were they from different social backgrounds from the beginning.
Side and separate note: I was reading with a frown the different sort of tone that’s popped up over on DB. I’m wondering if those unregistered commenters are actually the same 1 or 2 persons out to spoil the generally warm and friendly environment. I’ve realised that as the recappers there cannot bring up a recap thread as soon as we can get our commenting open space over here, and as I’m short of time, I’m less likely to go there after days have passed since the episode aired. I’m wondering if any of you who would have commented more on DB, find that the same for you?
I think it’s her guilt that drove her to hide those pics. She didn’t want to have to face up with meeting her Son and have to give an explanation about her abandonment. Because honestly she knew no explanation could possibly make up for it. All her excuses would sound hollow. She knew that deep down. When she made that decision never to re-establish contact again, she had to keep convincing herself that it was “better” in the long run for everyone (including CS and the dad). But she never could quite convince herself completely, hence she kept the photos so she could remember but she hoped they would forget about her and just move on. She wanted to be forgotten by CS, mistakenly believing that it’s better for him NOT to know than to know and deal with it. Yet fate would have it that CS finds out. And he processes the abandonment. He comes out the other end not with hate and resentment (which is probably what his Mother feared the most) but with grief and acceptance (he doesn’t tear up the photos in a fit of rage but keeps them, he cherishes the memory of her regardless) with a final acknowledgement that she is still his biological Mother. Although she never did fulfil her duties as a Mother (which he acknowledges), hence he only utters the word when she’s out of earshot (perhaps acknowledging that she didn’t want to hear it). She probably never quite wanted enough to be his Mother or she would’ve made at least some attempt to make contact (she had opportunities to but she never acted on them). Note also how CS never got an answer for Why she abandoned him. She never told him. This I think only highlights how hard it must’ve been for him to part with her on good terms. She didn’t offer anything at all to soften the blow. Nothing at all to make the process of reconciliation easier. She didn’t call him My Son…she didn’t hug him…she didn’t say it was all me, not you…she didn’t say I was trying to “find myself”…zilch. All she said was sorry. He had to work everything out on his own. He is a beautiful soul. Ever giving. I would hate the Hong Sisters for the rest of my life if they sullied his character by making him the reincarnation of the Captain. 😒😡. Maybe this is what MW needs to learn too, that even if you don’t get satisfactory answers for why someone hurt you, the need for forgiveness and just moving on is nevertheless there. Not only for the sake of those the person who dealt the hurt, but more so for yourself, so you can keep living.
😂 Just realized I contradicted myself. On the one hand I said MW needs to learn to forgive and move on, on the other I penned how I would hate the Hong Sisters for the rest of my life if they made CS the reincarnation of CM… 😂. I have much to learn.
@nrllee , I was still processing what you wrote when I read your last comment 😂 no worries. 😂
@Growing Beautifully, I’ve never posted in DB ever. I usually just go there for recaps.
Hmmm, does CS have some sort of power too? I don’t know. I’m overthinking now. 😆
@Growing beautifully, even though i am too an unregistered member in DB i have seen some new peoplw pop uo yesterday to comment on their all of a sudden, to specially unfairly criticise Jin goo and the lack of romantic chemistry etc. Idk what happened all of a sudden. Hope that won’t happen again 😔
So many typos in my previous comment, please excuse them. I forgot to double check before posting.
I avoid soompi and DB bec of these fangirls who just comment about “chemistry,” acting skills, and their handsome oppas. Phew! I’m glad we turn them off. They get bored with our posts dissecting the story and churning out theories after theories.
I wish they’d stick to the script, the plot, and the characters.
Dear @growingbeautifully, it is a pleasure to find you in both sites.
Personally I think that when DramaBeans opened its site to consumers of Korean cosmetics and did all the changes done (including the changes of hands from Javabeans and Girlfriday to Stroopwafel) they started to attract a different target to the native hardcore K-Drama and K-Pop lovers. People that doesn’t feel that passion on one side and therefore they don’t have this sense of community that DB had usually enjoyed nor they give a pinch of dirt for it. I hope those bad apples reform or get expelled.
On the other hand @pakmule3 , it is only polite from me to tell all the people in this forum that I am not as avid K-drama watcher as before (“Warm & Cozy” almost ruined them for me and I am still recovering), so if I dissapear into thin air after Hotel de la Luna ends its run, please do not think I do that out of rudeness… it is only that very few dramas pique my interest past episode 5.
On the other hand, I would LOVE to pick your brains to ask you for your favorite Dramas, not only the ones that are easy to love but also the ones that made you think. And please if there are say… good Japanese dramas involved, all the better!!! =)
Thanks and see you later!
Yeah they are probably mad because one of their handsome oppas didn’t have get the roll of chung sung
@Lily I saw that too about JinGoo. Good on you for defending him rationally 🙂. He’s doing just fine. Maybe his character isn’t the dashing hero they were expecting hence their unjustified negativity about him and their preference for the Captain (for some reason saying this gives me Sound of Music vibes 😂). IU has a lot of fan girls (and boys) so they can be very unrealistic and unreasonable about her male leads.
Thanks All for your take on the state of some of the comments on DB. I was wondering if it was because more deep thinking commenters (like us! Heh!) are not there as much as before, that the tone of the comments has shifted. I have not noticed it as much in the few other threads that I read, but the change is noticeable lately. I see that I’m not the only one to think so.
I’m reminded also of something called astroturfing. I’ve a suspicion that it’s just 1 or 2 people pretending to be many commenters (as if it’s public opinion) trying to push an opinion or set a tone to spoil things over there. It bothered me.
= = =
Thoughts on Attire
Back to this show over here and the mystery of the missing button from CS’s cuff. CS did not realise his suit was incomplete.
MW had pulled so hard on his sleeve that the button had gotten loose (it looked like all 4 buttons were still there when she let go) but by the time CS met Sanchez the button had dropped off. He recalled how MW had tried to stop him from leaving while he was upset but he had wanted to grieve.
Then Mi Ra and Det Park came in and shocked CS so much he could not even greet Park. Before he could even grieve properly over his ‘family’, he meets MW’s past ‘family’ consorting with MW’s past enemy.
Poor, generous CS, put his own needs on hold to attend to MW once again.
He had not noticed the missing button. It took another person to point it out to him. He now realises that he seems to be the conduit bringing MW’s past back to her. MW would never have known of her missed opportunities to resolve (or fufill) her grudges, if CS had not been engineered into her life.
This episode mentioned buying and selling. CS told MW that he’d come to sell the painting and had asked MW what she came with CEO to sell. Heheheh! She’d ‘sold him’ to CEO for his granddaughter! (I like that smile on her face when she realised that CS was not on a date). But when she had ‘bought’ CS from his dad 21 years earlier, she had no clue that she was bringing in someone who’d find her missing buttons. Her beautiful ‘outfit’ was incomplete but she never knew what she was missing.
I thought it was a hoot how she said she was dressed inappropriately for reading books, as if attire mattered for every ‘scene’. But that’s what show has been doing in her frequent outfit changes. She has been changing on the outside to suit what she thinks the scene demands. But as we noted before, she has failed to make the crucial change on the inside.
Now she has to consider how to respond appropriately to the reappearance a big, past enemy, seeing as she’s expecting Capt CM to pop up around CS.
The trouble with her is that she pushes the wrong buttons in herself, the button of self-destruction instead of going for forgiveness and healing. What irony, when she’s in a Hotel that provides healing for everyone else.
I found her last outfit with the beautiful vine branches motif on her skirt to be so appropriate. She has decided to face her next challenge not alone and all by herself like before, but with help. A great step in her growth and in blooming her spirit tree.
@GB, I’m barely posting at DB lately. Most of my ‘friends’ are gone or aren’t watching HDL. HDL in the old days would have 1000 comments not 150. They did lose a lot of people when the format changed. Fewer recaps and JavaBeans is barely a presence. I haven’t even read the Ep 9 recap, and a poster on the Ep 8 recap made me mad so I just gave a zing back and didn’t return.
I just ignore fangirls. We’re all interested in dramas for different reasons, so I ignore threads not interesting to me. What I don’t like is rudeness. I could be incredibly rude and sarcastic about fangirling but I’m not. Each to her own. But I’d like the fangirls to extend the same courtesy to me. I like to talk symbols and allusions and parallels. I’m always really interested in what writers are trying to do and how they are texturing their stories. I think all of us on pkm3’s blog here are. So if a fan girl isn’t interested, skip our threads like we skip yours. How hard is that?
@FGB, I’m posting for HDL but fewer than five k dramas over the last three or four years have elicited consistent commenting from me. Most I just use as an escape; it’s pretty rare that one captures my notice because of its writing chops.
One drama I think a group could watch together and have fun playing Sherlock is Black. It has a poor ending and is often confusing. But it’s very funny, and you MUST pay attention. I loved watching it with other Beanies. I wouldn’t have caught half the plot points, clues and allusions without them. It became a watching experience on Dramabeans. And sometimes the writing was literally brilliant but that ending :((. Most of us wrote the ending better just in speculation.
Thanks @FGB4877 Same here. I’m glad to see friends in more than one place.
You’ve been contributing to the positive, thoughtful discussion over at DB. I appreciate that a lot!!
@GB and @Lily, just read the comments on Dramabeans. Yeah, something’s up. Those non-members all in a row complaining was weird, and that person attacking Lily twice in a row. Charlie was bang on with her comments.
Here’s a fun thought I posted: what if the captain reincarnated as Chang Sun’s DAD? That’s why the tree bloomed for him? And like Mira he came back as a thief! He’s older or he would have the Captain’s face? And he paid the ultimate penalty: he (unknowingly) gave his lovely son to his old enemy in atonement. The ultimate sacrifice! And it plays – slant – into the Diana/Hippolytus myth!
I’m joking but I think I would just love something none of us have already thought of.
@Barbrey, I went to DB and read ya there too. IKR? Although we are not responsible for the state of the comments, I kinda feel that our presence makes a difference. At least there will be a more balanced discussion. For that reason, I think I’ll post here first (because we get a chance to vent immediately after watching an episode Heheheh!), then I’ll copy and paste over there and see if those types of comments pop up again.
One time on one of the threads, there was ‘bullying’ going on. 1 poster was everywhere replying to everyone and insisting on interpreting the scenes. There was also a faithful following of posters who agreed with everything she/he said. That’s when I found out about astroturfing and wondered if that was what was going on.
Ooh! Would you mind expanding on the part of the Diana/Hippolytus myth with the son sacrifice?
@nrllee thank you very much. Couldn’t keep my mouth shut. But still i was worried if i was fuling it as well 😅. and @Barbrey i love reading your theories on HDL. They are really fascinating!
The Captain = Chansung’s Dad?
Hey! I don’t mind that. The dad was certainly good-looking enough to match the appeal the Captain has the fangirls. 🙂
As you said, his theory will make sense of the tree. It had flowers when he walked in. lol. He walked through a rose garden but he only remembered his son’s birthday gift when he saw the blue flowers of the tree.
He came back as a thief, like Mira.
And the snake came alive for him. The Captain was a snake.
Also, his apology fit the Captain, too. He knelt down (and the snake slithered away) and said, “No. I’m sorry. Please forgive me. I’ve committed a sin worthy of death.”
So, did the Captain.
Killing Manwol’s gang for the sake of Silla was still a) killing and b) dishonorable. He betrayed them. I would rather that he met Manwol’s people on the battlefield and killed them there. They would have been enemy combatants. But what he did in the forest, no matter how we justify it as a political exigency, remains a moral and ethical violation. He used people, he betrayed friends. As some ethicists would say, we don’t use people as a means to an end, but as an end-in-itself.
That’s why I’m sticking it out with this drama. The plot still interests me, but I’m more curious now about the Hong sisters’ perspective on morality,
i.e., what their values are and how they deal with conflicts between values.
I guess this plays into the comments above. Diana’s companion and priest-warrior is Hippolytus, who I identify with Chang Sun. Hippolytus was raised from the dead to become Diana’s companion.
Before that second life, however: he is the son of demi-god and hero Theseus and Amazon queen Hippolytus, who gives him up to his father to raise in some versions.
Theseus (Cheong Meon) was known as an abducter of women; he’s a hero that unites the country but he’s also a player. Sounds a bit like CM uniting Gogoryeo and Silla, no? And CM sounded like a player to me, too, telling MW what to expect feelings wise now she was in love, as if he’d studied it!
The main story of Theseus that was debated in ethics,like the Actaeon myth, for hundreds of years, is the story of Theseus, Ariadne and the Minotaur. You’re likely familiar with it, but let me just summarize barebones so you’ll see where I’m going with this:
Theseus seduces Ariadne, the minotaur’s half-sister, in order to gain her help in finding and killing the minotaur in Crete. She helps him find the location, he kills her brother, and he betrays and abandons her while she’s sleeping.
This is not so different from our story: the Captain seduces Man Wol to find a specific location and conquer the Gogoryeo bandits. He kills her brother figure. He betrays Man Wol. In this version, MW is tricked into betrayal of her brother and people, but otherwise the bare bones aren’t much different.
I think it’s interesting what the Greeks and Romans thought were the sins of Theseus: not seducing Ariadne or conquoring the minotaur, but for betraying and abandoning Ariadne. In some versions he loved her and didn’t want to do it but the God of wine and excess, Dionysus, had dibs on her (please notice the prevalence of Wine and excessive spending by MW in HDL) and in others he just callously walked away.
So that’s the Theseus/Captain basis, but there’s more.
Theseus has a son, Hippolytus, and also a second wife, Phaedra. I don’t think this story is being used in its specifics but the main point is that she falls in love with her stepson. I don’t want to tell this story, it’s too long and not pertinent, at least not yet. But tangentially, both Theseus and Hippolytus, father and son, are loved by the same woman.
I’ve cherry picked, and forced the narrative a few times, but I hope you can see why I’ve said there could be a myth basis for CM being the DAD, even though narratively, I don’t see that happening.
His main characteristics are handsomeness, integrity, chastity, resistance to temptation.
I left that last sentence in by accident: it describes Hippolytus not Theseus, and thus Chang Sun.
And because Chang Sun is based on Hippolytus, we can see why a captain-MW romance might seem hotter than a CS-MW romance. CS is supposed to be young, awkward, chaste, ethical and virginal. Let’s hope he gets over some of it soon!
@Pkm3, one other reference is going on with CS’s mother and father. The actor who plays the father was the main lead in a Hong Sisters drama called Couple or Trouble. He’s a redneck, she’s an aristo. She loses her memory and thinks he’s her husband. And her family keeps trying to kill her to inherit her fortune.
The drama ends happy with them together, but she almost does leave right down to the wire. So your idea she might have hidden and abandoned CS to protect him from her family, rather than because she’s ashamed of him, has support from this reference too.
Thanks for all this @Barbrey! It was what I wanted to know and now I understand better the inferences and similarities that make us think the allusions are there.
Now I really wish someone could interview the Hong Sisters in detail about how they got their ideas for the characters.
Catch ya again!
Thanks GB. I feel a bit like I’m in a labyrinth of my own. First I identified Diana, pretty easy,and brother Apollo, then realized they were making use of the golden bough ritual. The golden bough ritual includes a warrior priest, Hippolytus. So Man Wol, Yeon Woo and Chang Sun.
Then the show focuses on Chang Sun’s parentage. So who were Hippolytus’s parents. First a Amazon queen who gave up her son for his father to raise, and secondly Theseus whose story rings so true with the captain’s its undenuable.
Is “Couple or Trouble” a Hong sisters drama?! I didn’t watch it because I thought it was a remake of that Goldie Hawn’s movie, “Overboard” or something.
Come to think of it, the actor does remind me Kurt Russell, the male lead in “Overboard”!!! You know, the same flannel/plaid shirt, the physique of a lumberjack, the diamond-in-the-rough demeanor, the square jaw…
Ahhh! That makes sense. That’s plausible. 🙂
No worries. We’re with you in the labyrinth. 😂
I’ll respond to this on the blog. Give me time to think about this. 🙂
Dear @barbrey and @growingbeautifully , I am glad to find you both here. Thanks for presenting me this site with Chang-Sung’s leafs discussion. Regrettably I don’t read as much as I used to do in my high school years (I was a loner, and still remember fondly the looks of horror of my classmates seeing me reading Thomas De Quincey’s “On murder considered as one of the Fine Arts”… I think that prevented bullying) so I enjoy your comments a lot. Curiosity is good for the mind and soul. Please keep posting!!!
@growingbeautifully , we have the same issue: it is hard to find shows that has that magical quality like “Goblin”, “Master’s Sun” or “Flowers for your Life”.
@Lily , you replied to me and I didn’t respond. Sorry. Since the bullies on DB the other day were unregistered I took you for one of them. I will be more careful with you in the future.
@packmule3 , yes “Couple or Trouble” is a Hong Sisters drama and I like it pretty much (I don’t regret saying it is a guilty pleasure for me). It has low stakes and part of the hook is seeing the haughty Johanna take VERY big chunks of Humble Pie. Seeing a rich girl who had fur coats at the beginning have a cockroach killed at her butcheek was very satisfying.
At the end even if the character hasn’t changed her delivery she has opened a lot to other people. A cute series and an easy watch.
Thanks for this Forum!!!
You made me laugh, @FGB4877.
If reading Thomas De Quincey’s “On murder Considered as One of the Fine Arts” preventing bullies from having their way with you, can you imagine the effect of reading “Lady Chatterley’s Lover” on my peers?
[edited]
Anyway, I’d like to think that I got girls reading “banned” books on the sly.
I’ll have to put “Couple or Trouble” on my to-watch list.
“On Murder considered as one of the Fine Art”!! Why have I never heard of that one? I know his Opium Eaters but Must read this one to impress my nephews!
I now have a vision of you as Ally Sheedy from the Breakfast Club!
I myself was a mongrel in high school. Read five books a week, honour roll but total party girl, played bass in a band, track star and softball pitcher, dated half the rugby team and had 108 absences one school year cause I was debating philosophy with the shrubs and stoners at a nearby cafe. Yep, I was the Popular (but never mean) girl who would have flaunted Lady Chatterly’s Lover or Murder as a Fine Art until they were popular too. I bet you all thought I was an absolute swot! I remember high school with fondness. I went to seed shortly thereafter lol.
LOLOL @Barbrey Thanks for sharing!
Dear @packmule3 and @barbrey , yes, I was very similar to Allison Reynolds (Ally Sheedy) in some aspects. But I didn’t put my problems on the forefront like her and had a hard time learning to trust like Man-Wol. Her character didn’t want to hide like me but to impose her history on the other four students.
I did read just a couple books a week back then (mostly Science-Fiction), and I don’t imagine most of my classmates reading something like “Lady Chatterley’s Lover” at that age if that was not in the curricula – and then they would look for the analysis books or summaries rather than reading the whole thing -, but it was early 90’s Venezuela and since being leftist was “cool” then Gabriel García Marquez’ “Cien Años de Soledad” (A Hundred Years of Solitude) was imposed on us. God I learned to hate that book even if everyone praised it like if it was the Bible’s New Chapters (most probably I didn’t get it).
Loved Biology back then, Literature and History. But I ended becoming an Engineer with a Master’s Degree… in a country that doesn’t even produce steel nor oil anymore u_u .
So in a nutshell for what pertains the discussions in this site (that I am learning to like very much) I must confess that I have some peculiarities:
1.- My Mother Language is Spanish, not English. My English is mostly self-learned so be aware that I might commit misspelling or struggle with words or grammar occasionally.
2.- I am an heterosexual male. Misandric comments irk me as much as mysoginistic ones (my family is composed of lots of ladies), but it is only fair for women to vent their grievances: we also do so. It is only natural since we are all human and at the end of the day Dramas are written -I think- mostly for ladies. So I am the odd one here. I will try to be very polite in my rebuffs since my main goal is not to emotionally discharge myself but to make my point across. My final goal is to understand.
Note: If I step on a landmine, please let me know. Here we have so many problems that the #Metoo seems like luxury to us and we are kind of candid in that regard.
3.- Personally I think that Internet Anonimity is a right but also one that must be administered wisely, so…
3.1.- I assume that the people across the keyboard has the best intentions like I do. That is why even if I don’t know Lily I apologized for not answering her (and also confounding her for the DB Trolls).
4.- As I told you I am Venezuelan, so it is possible for me to dissapear into thin air since there are lots of things I must take care off before sitting here. That also mean that some things non-survival related could slip out of my mind.
Thanks and sorry for the long post. As José Ortega y Gasset said: “I am me and my circumstances, and if I don’t change them then they will change me” =)
Dear Moderator, please use your judgement to decide if this post is relevant or useful, and discard it at your discretion if you decide so.
Thanks for sharing about yourself @FGB4877, I’m glad to know we have a man’s point of view over here and at DB. There are too few men who are commenting.
Your English is superb and all the more kudos to you that it’s mostly self-learnt.
I’m an Asian Ahjumma based in Singapore and wishing I could spend more time and brain energy on such rich shows as this and that I could be adept at catching all the undertones and innuendos, and be prolific in thinking and expressing what I discover.
My great love for discussion over dramas stems also from wanting to understand, ie wanting to plumb the depths in order to appreciate the art of show making more, and at the same time garner the show’s message of truth if any, that I may apply in life.
Dear @GrowingBeautifully , I would LOVE to have my PhD in one of your Universities, regrettably I don’t make the cut =( . It is wonderful for me to hear asian voices since all we had here (for a little while) where Chinese people with no English nor Spanish under their belts. It was sad to see all those people with so much things to say being muted by the language barrier.
I don’t usually say directly I am a male. Two years ago I had this unpleasant encounter in DB:
http://www.dramabeans.com/2017/06/han-ye-seul-considers-offer-to-headline-no-sex-and-the-city/
As I said before, here we are very innocent to the #Metoo movement and its implications, and that person decide I had the worst intent in my heart. Since I couldn’t reach her nor appeal to our shared humanity, I decided to let her pass.
But as you could imagine I come to Asian Dramas to have a break, not to have a hard times. Those I have in spades.
And @barbrey , this is the least thing I could do since you generously (even if by accident) gave us your actual name 😉 . To make myself a little bit more human to you =)
Dear @GrowingBeautifully , “My great love for discussion over dramas stems also from wanting to understand, ie wanting to plumb the depths in order to appreciate the art of show making more, and at the same time garner the show’s message of truth if any, that I may apply in life”.
That is also the role of High Literature, to reframe human experience in a way that can touch us and by doing so make it relevant. Sometimes an odd show gets to that level. For me it is “Flowers for my Life” (2007) .
@FGB, I don’t worry re my real name cause everything important – writing for the most part – in my life is under a pseudonym! For the rest, I’m pretty much an open book. Thanks for sharing. I have been wondering about your country – you’ve mentioned it a few times but not it’s name. Venezuela. My heart hurts for what has been happening in your country recently. Stay safe, chingu.
@GB Are you as warm and lovely as your name? Cause that’s what you seem like. I’m Canadian but I spent years of my childhood in Malaysia, KL, not so far from you! I noticed your posts on dramabeans from the get go. Reflective and interesting.
“That’s why I’m sticking it out with this drama. The plot still interests me, but I’m more curious now about the Hong sisters’ perspective on morality,
i.e., what their values are and how they deal with conflicts between values.”
Ditto. They seem less likely than most to bow to popular opinion so I wager their writing is therefore more reflective of their moral code than most. I will keep reading 🙂
@Barbrey Thank you for your kind words. I chose a name that would remind me to be life-giving. And as one continues to grow regardless of age, one might as well grow … beautifully 😄. Someone once asked me if my name was chosen because I was an expectant mother LOL.
Ah yes, you’d have been very near me if you were in Malaysia. I do still make short trips up to places there, although not too often.
I too noticed your thoughtful and insightful posts and that’s why I responded to you on DB. I was excited to know that you’re also in the business of show-making, so to speak, and therefore speaking from a position of experience. Your insights are very much appreciated! I’m glad to see you here and on any blog that you care to post in. I hope to read more of you and often in shows to come! 😃
“I don’t usually say directly I am a male. Two years ago I had this unpleasant encounter in DB:
http://www.dramabeans.com/2017/06/han-ye-seul-considers-offer-to-headline-no-sex-and-the-city/
As I said before, here we are very innocent to the #Metoo movement and its implications, and that person decide I had the worst intent in my heart. Since I couldn’t reach her nor appeal to our shared humanity, I decided to let her pass.”
@fgb4877
I am appalled at how your comments were taken out of context. Your intent to assure was totally twisted and no amount of groveling in your part could’ve appeased the respondent. She was looking for a fight and she picked on you because you were male. Totally uncalled for. She was being unreasonable and downright nasty. Kudos to you for taking the high road and behaving like a gentleman. 🙂
Dear @GrowingBeautifully , that is an excellent name. I always thought that for a young person to be beautiful and candid is mostly natural, but for an older person having both the experience of life and its implied burdens to be beautiful is a work of art: one where your canvas is your own soul. An edelweiss like in “The Sound of Music”.
That is why I loved “Dear My Friends” so much. Those people had gone through so much but still had the energy to pursue love, justice, their dreams and to protect their loved ones.
And @nrllee , yes I thoght so… but also sometimes the best you can do for someone you can’t reach is to let them alone.
Thank you FBG4877. What a lovely compliment!
I’m facing, not sour commenters, but dissent over something of great importance to me, closer to home, and I find that I have no choice too but to leave ‘them’ alone or end up driving them away. Therefore I hope what you say is true ie the best is to pray and ‘appear’ to do nothing.