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What bliss! This puppy has it made. His head and belly are being stroked at the same time.
Enjoy the show!
84 Comments On “Red Sleeve: Eps 13, 14 & 15 Open Thread”
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What bliss! This puppy has it made. His head and belly are being stroked at the same time.
Enjoy the show!
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Ahhh…. thank you so much @pkml3! I’m looking forward to this weekend not only because it’s Christmas but because so many shows are going to be stroking my mind at the same time LOL.
Have a lovely, blessed Christmas Eve! ๐ ๐
Wish you all a Merry Christmas Eve and Christmas day! Will enjoy watching 3 episodes this week.
Hijacking this post to greet everyoneโฆ Have a blissful, blessed and merry Christmas BoD!
Wishing everyone on BoD a merry Christmas eve!!๐ ๐ฒ๐๐ May Santa gift us with many more memorable kdramas to discuss on BoD๐
Merry Christmas to everyone!
I managed to watch Episode 13. ARGHHH! It is a slow slow slow burner so far…What is going to happen in those 4 last episodes? *frustrated*
*Cleopatra, agree! I laughed at the drunken painting episode but aside from that found ep 13 depressing. Too many historical realities and realities of royal life impinging on the romantic possibilities. I hope we see a few more glimmers and things resolved in the next few eps.
@packmule3and all of the BODers celebrating Christmas, please have a blessed, peaceful,healthy and joyous holy day. May you also experience the pleasure of your favorite K Dramas.
Given the historical events, the Red Sleeve will be tragic. I am preparing myself to cry buckets at the end. However am also looking forward to a very romantic, perhaps steamy, moment just before. This is a favorite drama that I savor and rewatch
It is a real treat and to me, beautifully done. I think we’ll be getting an extra episode. โค๏ธ
Merry Christmas everyone!
If I catch the symbolism correctly, in ep 13 I noticed San was grabbing DI’s sleeve as well as her hand. I always felt the red sleeve is a symbol throughout the drama to connect all the key emotional moments. Like DI’s sleeve is used to wipe San’s tears from the begging. San’s security is the red sleeve. Knowing that DI would be there even if, in any case, she doesn’t like him. In ep 7 he thought:
“I don’t care if you have no affections for me. You’re still a palace maid, and you’ll always remain in the same place.”
In this episode, he placed her sleeve/hand on his heart.
Also I like the choice of San’s costume. He is wearing wine red sleeves which match DI’s sleeve colour well. With the warm yellow candle light, that makes the picture very pretty to look at.
I found it sad when San was wiping his tears when he was laughing. There is a lot of sadness when the two contrasting emotions are put together. It makes the laugh, so hollow, so empty. It is just a mask for the inside.
So, the kiss didn’t go ahead and I am OK with it. I think it is more consistent with San’s restraint and respect for DI. As a Crown Prince, King, he could have DI but he chose not to for years. I am glad being drunk doesn’t change this. At least, he can be himself and have a peaceful sleep with DI’s presence.
San really has no one, he has to kill so many people even his mother and the Queen’s relatives. It is so lonely to be him. Would the courting advice (which is very amusing to watch!) from the head guardsman help him/foreshadowing why DI decide to accept him?
Preparing for sadness and tears based on the historical record. Definitely will be bereft. However I am looking forward for our beautiful pair’s actual coupling. Given how this drama has been so tasteful, I expect it to be beautifully done. This drama is painful so just call me a masochist ๐ญ
SPOILERs
SPOILERs
Episode 14 BTS – not yet subbed.
@OAL I wonder that myself too – with history as spoilers (I had a brief look in Wiki). I attribute to the captivating acting of the leads back with a strong supporting cast. With any pair lesser than Jun Ho and Se Young, I think it would be a too slow burn romance for me. San’s character worked so hard to have a better nation. He is quite selfless and seems like a rational person not big headed. DI’s character risked her own life to save his life many times, comes with some backbone of the modern values. With history as guide, I just hope that they can have some happiness at some stage and have peace at the end.
Ep 14 and 15 are heavy going. I don’t know if I fully understood the emotions so need rewatching. I am waiting to see what you all think. ๐
Episode 14
Is it fair to say there is some misunderstanding from DI’s side? I do not think San undervalues the court lady lives? San is operating at a macro level and waiting for the right moment to rescue the court lady. In his position, I don’t think he can just burst in and save the court ladies without research and planning? Whereas DI operates at a personal level and wants to save her dear friend as soon as possible?
Why does DI think San deceive her?
Also, since when their relationship become so not trusting? Especially from DI’s side? She even plans to go to the Queen, wouldn’t that a huge embarrassment for San? It is hard for me to watch.
I also found it harsh to hear that DI said she never loved and never would love San at the end of the episode 14. It is hard to appreciate her boldness out of a concern of a dear friend in front of a King whom I believe she does love. Is she borderline spoiled?
So, ep 14 is my least favourite episode so far in the drama.
Episode 15
I found DI has calms down a bit and understands the favour San has given him. With a year break, she appreciates more. Even though she has asked for punishment, San didn’t give it to her.
The conversation of Hong DR also required a bit more understanding. Why is he less angry when both of them are out of the palace?
HDR: The sight of you always made me angry. It made me even angrier because I knew why I was angry. When I saw you after you had left the palace, I wasn’t angry for the first time.
DI: What are you saying? If I go with you, you will forget that you have been stripped of your position and be happy?
HDR: Of course not. You hold yourself in far too high esteem. I have lost everything. I must suffer until the day I die. You would merely comfort me enough that I would not die and barely manage to continue on. I would have the comfort of knowing that I could possess the one thing His Majesty could not. So, if you hear of my death, don’t forget that you are the cause of my death.
Then he has a strange made smile.
I think his sentiment/anger is out of jealousy. The question is jealousy out of the love for San and San never valued him as much as DI? Or is there some love for DI, whom he thought as a lowly court lady?
I found it touching to read his final letter. I felt that he has some peace and come clean at the end. He finally offered perhaps his best advice to San not to deceive himself.
It is frustrating to see concubine Yun mistreated DI, but perhaps that makes DI realised how good San has treated her. She has zero boldness in front of concubine Yun. Quite a contrast to episode 14. When she thinks San undervalue courtlady lives, look at concubine Yun!
@GB can you watch it? I can’t due to my location. I will wait for jlml718’s subbed version.
Hope you all had a good Christmas ๐
After rewatching, I think I can understand the emotions a bit better. I think these couple of episodes are not a light watch and putting 3 all together requires a lot more thinking and digesting.
The Red Sleeve
If I catch the symbolism correctly – the red sleeve has a new meaning in ep 15. I thought it is very clever. All along I thought it is about the San holding on to DI’s red sleeve, but when DI accepted San, it is his red sleeve that she is holding onto.
The Queen (San’s Grandmother)
All along I thought she is neutral. However, she seems to plant seeds of doubt when people trust wavering the most.
Example 1 She planted that thought in San’s mind about making DI’s a concubine as rewarding himself. Fortunately Court lady Seo offered some kind advice to correct his thinking.
Example 2 She planted that thought about San not value court lady lives after their story reading session. She suddenly showered DI with kindness and affection. Posed as someone trusting. Admittedly San is always too hesitant to punish Hong DR. Best, under her plan, DI and HDR would lose their lives which will hurt San. At the end, she successfully drove an wedge between San and DI. That was a scene she was playing Go/chess with San. Is that a metaphor she is plotting all a long, and people become one of her chess pieces without knowing, like DI?
Example 3 Hong DR mentioned his sister is pushed to death by the Queen and she used a lot of dirty tricks. At first I chalked it as Hong DR’s madness. However, I don’t think so anymore. She is someone to watch out for.
Value of a court lady life
DI and San’s fight at the end of ep 14 is a lover fight, not a master/servant fight. It’s just that DI didn’t realise that and thinking she is merely standing up for herself. She said she didn’t love San in the past in the future. She doesn’t understand “substance over form”. Although it is not spoken in words, all the emotions and actions that they shared are people who are in love, not a master and servant relationship.
That’s the part I found the most frustrating and hard to watch. Fortunately, ep 15 comes right after.
Not until in ep 15, I felt she doesn’t understand what it really means about “not valuing court lady’s value” until she served concubine Yun. What is it really means about “deceiving a court lady”. What is it really means by “punishment”. What a court lady life can be like without San’s love.
So after rewatching, I can appreciate their reconciliation at the end of episode 15 more and appreciate the Red sleeve connection more. San might have waver about his love, but I am glad he is as persistent as usual and finally found his happiness. DI finally understands what is it like without San’s love and she wants to hold on to his red sleeve.
Happy Bank Holiday!
@Viva, thank you for your enriching perspective on eps 13 to 15.
Yes, good points re the Queen… she is a tricky customer, led by her head not her heart, and her encounters with San left me feeling depressed. Especially her downplaying his achievements – heartless!
I shared the sense of romance being endlessly thwarted in this set of episodes – although I enjoyed them and there were moments of resolution, I felt I was starving for more.
I do feel that extending the romantic tension – while necessary for the actual historical timeline – was tricky for the writers and created something of a frustrating experience for the viewers. Especially when I think about the early ‘meet cute’ devices which heated up the romantic narrative in such a heart warming and sometimes comedic way.
I also struggled with the sense that San’s love may have wavered or moved to doubt. I also struggled with not believing Di’s motivation any more … how could she, humanly speaking, retain her stance in the face of San’s desperate situation and passionate regard for her?
But I think in order not to ignore the history… the writers had to take us on a windy windy route.
I am looking forward to ep 16 and curious about what they will do with ep 17.
Anneyong!
I managed to finish Episode 15 as well.
@Viva you wrote what I had in mind! In Episode 13-14 I felt that they were dragging it a bit. Also, I really don’t understand how Deok Im would change her mind about San so easily, just because the Queen Dowager said some words to her.
We are watching their love story over a span of at least 7 adult years. I believe that Deok Im’s behaviour was out of proportion. It’s okay to say that she doesn’t want to become a concubine and another to hurt San by saying she didn’t love him at all.
@Viva you are right, she was too bold with her language for her status. Yes it was a lovers quarrel, but in a weird way. In the end Deok Im hurt Yi San so very much.
Yi San as the King had the best of interest in his mind and wanted to solve it in a way that wouldn’t hurt Hong DeokRo and basically what Deok Im told him is that he doesn’t know how to treat urgent matters, not only for his people outside, but also inside the palace.
So, she would just go to Queen Dowager to solve her problem? Just because she said so?
This is a character flaw for me, because we see a severe change of attitude by Deok Im-ah and seriously, I didn’t like it at all.
It is another thing to say I want to my freedom. I don’t want to share with you other women. I want you for myself and another to tell him he is not a good king because basically that is what she told him.
Deok Im knew Yi San treated everyone in the palace with respect and was not a bad ruler. I am not talking here about the rebels or those who wanted to assassinated him.
As for Concubine Yun, that one is very sly. As a woman, she realized that something was happening between Yi San and Deok Im and she punished Deok Im and she would continue doing so, if Yi San didn’t find out and scolded her out it!
Overall, I feel that the ending won’t be happy for some episodes now.
We know that in History things didn’t end up well for Deok Im, but all those episodes until 15 were too much for me.
After Episode 13, I was frustrated and @Kate agreed with me.
Episode 14 got into my nerves and Episode 15 calmed me down a bit, but all three episodes together were too much. That’s all for now…
I had no idea there was a place to discuss RSC. I should visit BOD more often, I guess last I was here was HP 1. So… I’m overall disappointed in the show and San’s behavior this past 3 episodes regards to DI. How many times has he threatened her already? I’m actually conflicted because some of it maybe historically true and that’s what the show was set out for from the beginning. But it’s hard to see the Male lead acting that way. Also I couldn’t figure out why DI agreed all of a sudden? Was it because of concubine Yoon? Or what really. This drama has had a problem of neither showing nor telling few important things. Tbh I could never buy that San liked DI this soon. He was already head over heels by the 3rd episode. But throughout all these episodes, I can’t really tell if DI likes him and what San does is pure love. For the last few episodes it just feels like he’s lusting over her. If not for all the actor’s wonderful performance, I may have left the show long ago. But I’m glad I came here as I can see a few comments are showing a different perspective than what I had regarding the San and DI conflict in ep 14 so I’ll catch up to the previous OT’s now.
@Viva I believe the one DR tried to frame was The Current Queen (Queen Hyoui, San’s wife) because in Ep 13 (or 14?) DI specifically asked if he had proof that his sister was murdered by jungjeon mama, not daewang daebi mama (Grand Queen Dowager).
But I agree that she is indeed very manipulative. We only have two episodes left, so I hope she won’t cause any more problems.
I am a little disappointed that the show did not include Queen Hyoui at all. She and DI are said to be very close. I think it would have been interesting to watch their dynamics.
From the preview it seems like the show is really gonna jerk our tears. There are some reports on twitter saying they even went to shoot the drama at DI’s tomb. Are they giving us one extra episode just to let viewers suffer? I wonder what the original ending would have been like.
@Goldenashes97,
In the timeline of the show, there was not Queen in that specific time.
Historically speaking Yi San has a Queen since he was 15 years old, but on the show we haven’t seen that at all. He was alone with no Queen and he was appointed with Concubines.
Hong was accusing Queen Dowager for his sister demish, that’s why he was abducting Court Ladies and Nurses from the Queen’s Palace.
As for the ending. I think it will be sad. I have read a comment that the novel’s ending was sad as well.
Hi, this is your sometimes resident contrarian. I think, having learned the hard way, that we look at the main relationship from the perch of our times and cultures. I think that DI had to be de,iberately cruel to San based upon her place in society(most court ladies came from the slave class and she started out as a lowly servant girl-see how she first saved San).She was also un h small because of her inborn intelligence, being able to read and write a d hundrrstand the material. Her job as a court lady was quite specialized. She also understood the cruelty of the palace. Although San thought he was playing with her, the early incidence of the numerous apology letters was not kind. She also knew about her place, where she could walk, what she could look at, when she could speak. Hers was a life that was primarily one of self-preservation. If she was driven from the palace, would she not know starvation(rhetorical).And given her place she could probably not even imagine the love of a prince/king. My point here is that DI is remarkable in her ethics, bravery, compassion, I n telligence, accomplishments, given the context of her place and time. I hesitate to criticize her choices as some BoDers did based on all of the societal constraints placed on her. She also is truly goid-look at her friendships.
I am looking forward to see her fleeting moments of happiness, but am preparing myself for a tragic ending and a good cry. As DI foreshadowed, it is the Higher Power that determines the number of our days. Ugly cry….
Dear @OAL,
Here are some of my thoughts on the last episodes.
Deok Im in the series, I cannot say about the Historical figure, was the daughter of one of the swordmen of Prince Sado. The day the Crown Prince Sado died they were all killed as traitors. She was from a good family who fell from grace.
The thing we are stating is that in Episode 14 she spoke to him out of her place. And to me that was not a brave Court Lady acting bold, but a woman in our times that could talk freely her mind. It is anachronistic and out of character for Deok Im from what we have seen until Episode 13.
In the first episodes, Yi San was indeed cruel to her, but she did throw him salt and even used that broom in order for him to go away from the library. She didn’t recognize him and he wanted to punish her for that. Did I like that? No.
Their relationship is a push and pull. We have witnessed that in many incidents in the series. What I didn’t like in Episode 14 is that there is character flaw in the script.
You cannot have Deok Im act in a specific way up to a point in the series and then suddenly just because Queen Dowager put said something to her. She started having doubts that were translated out of the blue as trust issues about Yi San.
Deok Im got there by stating that “she cannot trust the King.”
The Crown Prince she sworn to protect until the day she dies?
The man who saved several times over?
The man she deeply loves? It makes no sense to me…
Yi San may be many things, but he cherished Deok Im and she knew that. What DeokRo told her was true. Deok Im knew that she was Yi San’s favorite. She knew he loved her and she deliberately hurt him in that scene.
I agree with @Viva that it was a lovers fight, but for me the execution wasn’t right. She was pushing Yi San away and they were not talking as they used to. He had to act as a King and save both the Court Ladies and make Hong DeokRo to understand what he did wrong.
I am not talking about her intelligence and her bold character and how loyal she is. I am talking that what I have watched in the last minutes of Episode 14 wasn’t making sense.
And after all that happened, in Episode 15, Deok Im learns from the Princess that her Brother sent her there. Even though Mammanim wanted to assure her that he does that for every Court Lady. The truth is that Yi San sent Deok Im to his sister’s house, in order to be somewhere safe.
The thing is that Deok Im is strong headed, we all know that and we kinda love her for that. BUT finally she realized that she was out of her place and that she indeed hurt Yi San deeply. Not only as a man, but as the ruler of this kingdom.
I am now certain that the story will end with her death. As you have written that last phrase was a foreshadow and we are indeed going to cry…
I think ep 14 is probably served as a turning point of San and DI’s set paths in their minds.
San is a master of give and take, and waiting – His character is used to enduring bad treatment for the greater good and result:
1. Grandfather – San put up with his abusive behaviours to ascend to the throne so he can implement his plans for the country. When he died, he chose to still love him and remember his good.
2. Hong DR – San put up with his corruptions hoping he will be truly loyal to him. He remembers HDR’s goodness from childhood and that keeps him going. He hardly knows when to stop giving him chances.
3. DI – San put up with her rejections hoping one day she will marry him. He remembers all the times she saved her. He probably not going to stop until something dramatic happens.
That brings us to episode 14. He finally gave up on Hong DR and let DI go. They finally did something that push San to his limits.
Substance over form – DI’s love for San
I learn this concept of substance over form. This is when we have to make an accurate assessment of the transaction that goes beyond what said legally. I think the concept can apply to DI’s love for San since her rejections to San are so adamant. From all her behaviours I think she loves San. If this is not love, what is?
1. She always wants to get him out of trouble and doesn’t give up easily. This is most apparent in the time when he was in danger. She puts him first. Asking for the King to forgive him. Running back to see him after his assassination. Asking the Queen to speak to the King a few times. Even at times, that puts her in danger.
2. She misses him and cries for him when she is relaxed in her dreams
2. She gets angry and sad because of him. She cares for him deeply. In ep 13 “I see the depth of your pain and suffering. Ever since you ascended the throne, you have been suffering, Your Majesty. Never have you seemed at peace since then. I want to help you. But there is nothing I can do. So I feel more and more helpless every day.”
So we can see it is easy for her to action her love when Crown Prince is helpless. Now San is the King, there is no space for her to protect him the way she used to do. She goes back to her default plan and at the same time, San let her boldness to grow to unbelievable and unacceptable level. She takes San’s love and tolerance as granted. Episode 14 lets DI does what she always wanted – rejects San, lives her life, have freedom, no need to share. She has the freedom she never had. After that, does that stop her from loving the king? Is she, happy?
After San let her go in ep 14, does that stop San from loving her?
So I felt ep 14 is used to introduce that a one year break and separation for character growth and reset, mostly on DI’s side. She has only ever been a court lady for San and under San’s love and protection. She never knows what it is like not to be a court lady, or a court lady without the love and protection of San. In ep 15 she said, “Now that I know of the favour he granted me, I feel even more wretched than before.”
So yes, agree @Cleo and @ Kate. How could she say those words to San? If I have to see the good out of it, is ep 14 that let DI did what she thought would work and would give her happiness, but it doesn’t.
Hi @Viva and @ Cleopatra, I have a problem with your initial assumptions. You cannot assume that DI and San are equals. DI is essentially a higher level slave. If you hear her speak, she does so by as,ING permission to be frank and knows that what she says could result in dire consequences. Zconcubine relationship is not a marriage and does not necessarily come with those privileges. Even in marriages in the aristocracy, women are not equal and much of their power comes from whether they have given birth to an heir to thevp throne. If they have girls, they have lower status. That’s on of the reasons why you see all that intrigue from the various Queens and noble women. DI can’t count on San to protect her. The drama shows her going through a variety of punishments without San’s intervention-another bad assumption. Ultimately DI must depend on herself. The king(San) drive her from the palace in part to protect himself. His kindness was to pace her where she could survive. If he didn’t see her, she might have lived fairly well, perhaps marrying a merchant. I’ll respectfully agree to disagree with you. I just have a hard time attributing any blame to DI for San’s issues. He holds the lion’s share of the power. She has to use her wits for her very survival. And she knows the pitfalls and benefits of being a concubine are. Being a concubine isn’t all it’s cracked up to be.
I also have to say that she humanized San in the way he chooses to be king. He wants to better the water system. But more important, he wants to make improvements by building a fort using paid labor, not enforced labor. I truly wonder where he got that idea. His people would not even think that way. Our kings enlightenment had to be influenced by DI. His group of councilors wouldn’t even have the germ of thinking that way. Theirs is to increase their wealth and power. That’s why they all plot. The most honest of San’s inner circle is the Captain of his guards. And the captain is more attuned to DI, being another source for the “commom” people and their hardships.
Hi @Viva, in EP 14, we can see that after Deok-Ro was arrested, Yi-San threw the book at DI and then stormed out. DI’s facial expression showed that she knew she had hurt Yi-San again.
On one side, Yi San was angry because while DI said she would protect him, she didn’t go to him when she needed help, and worse yet, she didn’t go to Yi-San this time because she simply didn’t trust that he would resolve the court ladyโs kidnapping any time soon and rescue her friends. On the other side, Yi-san was furious at the fact that DI not only nearly sabotaged his plan in respect to Deok-Ro, she also nearly caused a political tussle/battle should the queen be dragged into this. It’s a known fact that Yi-san had been coddling and tolerating Deok-Ro offence, so obviously DI couldn’t go to Yi-san for help. The queen was the suitable go-to person because not only did she willing to help, she was also in charge of all matters concerning court ladies officially.
I believe DI had thought it through before she made the move, knowing that she probably wouldn’t be able to get away with this political โinterferenceโ. On top of that, I believe DI had somewhat reached a point that she just couldn’t reject Yi-San anymore, as it pained her when she saw him suffer from her repeated rejections. She wasn’t able to push Yi San away herself, and therefore she deliberately said all the presumptuous, bold and hurtful words to Yi-san so that he would finally push her away himself, or at least when he became furious.
@Cleopatra personally, I think the show wants the viewers to just assume that San is already married to Queen Hyoui, and they just decided not to show her face. It’s strange for a king not to have a queen, no? Not only for the sake of an heir, a King also needs support from his Queen’s clan.
In episode 13, during Jeongjo’s convo with Grand Queen Dowager, they were talking about how Jeongjo hasn’t been able to produce an heir. At this time, Jeongjo doesn’t have any concubine yet, neither in the history nor the drama. So I assumed they were referring to Queen Hyoui.
Pardon my poor translation. I watched the drama with Indonesian subtitle.
Jeongjo: Are you saying that you are picking a concubine for me?
Queen Dowager: I have not hear good news from you. At this rate, I will be very ashamed to face the late King. You need a concubine to produce an heir, and that is my job to pick one.
Jeongjo: I will decide who will be put next to me.
Queen Dowager: Then hurry and pick one. Is there any woman in this country that you cannot have?
Same thing goes for Prince Eunjeon. We never saw his face, yet the show included him only in passing.
@goldenashes97,
I understand what you are saying, but in the series, I cannot make that assumption, due to the narrative they have showed to us -the audience- so far.
We have History Vs Script in this one. Although, Queen Hyui is an integral part of the historical aspect, in the series we haven’t seen her even once, nor we have heard a reference about her, while on the other hand we are familiar with the two Concubines so far.
Since, I cannot read the novel, I cannot say why they haven’t showed us the Queen.
I assume that they want to focus on the love Yi San has for Deok Im and vice versa. As we know, Yi San states that the only woman for him is Deok Im-ah.
That’s why he asked her to become a family.
For all the above, since Queen Hyui is invisible for the audience, she cannot exist in the series. That is my interpretation. ๐
Dear @OAL,
Of course, we are not going to agree on everything and that is okay.
After reading your comment though, I was thinking how to answer to you, mostly because you wrote some things that I havenโt actually said.
I never stated that Yi San and Deok Im are equals. Since Yi San is the King, he is above everyone. I wrote though, that Deok Im is from a good clan that fell from grace and that is not the same thing.
Since I have studied about slaves in ancient Greece, I cannot see that Deok Im or all the other Court ladies as higher-level slaves. Some of them come from a poor background, while others are from well-off clans. Thatโs why I didnโt write anything about that matter.
I donโt like intrigue at all and those who really know me, know that I donโt like Byzantium for that reason. What was happening in the Royal Court is not of my liking, nor what is happening in those Sageuks I am watching, but I continue to do so for the sake of informing myself of what was happening and keep an open eye.
If I take into consideration your argument that Deok Im is a higher-level slave, then what she did tell to Yi San in the end of Episode 14 is even worse than I have written previously. Since Yi San is typically her owner, he should have her executed immediately for her transgression and not let her live.
Since I am not into that train of thought, I still say that Deok Im shouldnโt talk to Yi San like that. I agree with @Viva that she did so, because DI knew that she was The King’s Favorite and the punishment wouldn’t be severe. Something that Hong DeokRo told her in Episode 15.
@Viva also, got the spirit of what the show wanted to tell us. Yi San was letting both Nari Hong and Court Lady Sung get away (with murder), because he had history with them both. He knew them since they were children, so as they were his people in all the bad and the good, he was waiting for them to realize their mistakes.
In modern terms, Yi San was not setting boundaries and when he did things changed for the three of them.
Technically speaking the incident that gave us Deok Im’s outburst is not well written and I cannot understand the part why Deok Im suddenly doesnโt trust the King. She got his word that he will bring her friend back. For me, when I see a specific narrative and then the narrative changes suddenly, that means there is a glitch in the script.
Historically speaking, Yi San was a very good ruler and he was so highly educated that he trained his advisors himself. He was innovative, because he wanted Joseon to become a better place.
And thatโs all I wanted to say. ๐
@Cleopatra, I think BOD commenters misunderstand me. My comments are not meant as criticism of individual commenters but are meant more universally. My impression oftentimes is that I’m looking at the forest but many of the commenters are looking at the detail of the trees. I also think that we all come to the discussion with different life experiences, cultural backgrounds, etc. So I have the perspective of my life to date.
For The Red Sleeve, my main sympathies are with DI so I view her words and actions more positively. My view of the CP,/King is harsher mainly because of his status. Although he is subject to all manner of intrigue with assassins lurking, she is always subject to the whims of all of her superiors. He has the palace guards for protection. Ultimately, even though she has his favor, she must depend upon herself for survival. And if you think of it, when she does become a concubine,her main job is procreation. That means the perils of childbirth at that time and maternal mortality. So these are some reasons why I view this drama with a preference for DI.I want her happiness above all, and know that will be fleeting.
One of the things we are all having to deal with as we respond to this drama – some people have mentioned this – is the modern perspective overlaying the motivation of historic figures and sometimes seeming to intrude…
For me when Di says – on one or two occasions = she is afraid of losing herself, it rings uncomfortably 21st century to me.
Is this just one of the creative liberties that the dramatist has taken in order for the San/Di relationship to have meaning to the contemporary audience?
It rang hollow for me … and, on the other hand, the reluctance to give herself to him completely when he couldn’t do the same back… rang true.
I am curious…I don’t know if anyone has researched in detail the reasons Di gave for turning down the prince? Perhaps I am wrong and she did use this type of argument for refusing the Prince/King.
@Kate, I liked your points. I think any historical drama, no matter what cul/use it is from is made with the sensibilities of the time it’s produced. I like to compare how Jane Austen novels have been done. There are always anachronism. The old Hollywood Pride and Prejudice is very different stylistically (check out the diction, for instance and a olivier played D a rcy) with the two BBC versions(there was one before the Jennifer Ehle, Colin Firth(wet shirt?) Version, and the later version with !Israel Knightly and Rosamund Pike. Even with the use of Austen’s actual dialogue, the contemporary differences are evident. Perhaps this is done to make these palatable to same time audiences. It’s fun to see. There are several Emma’s, Sense and Sensibility and Persuasions. At this time of year we get lots of Christmas Carol’s.
And then, we have us, the viewers. We look at these through our own experiences. When we read a novel, we each bring something different to the table. And many times, one can wonder if we all saw the same thing. At BOD, the safe place for Flower Gardeners, we certainly were not part of the majority Winter Gardeners and few saw any redeeming qualities in our Maggot doctor. In that respect, this group or the more vocal participants marched to the beat of a different drummer.
I hope somebody responds to your question @Kate. This drama is based on a novel that is a fictionalized account of history. It would be helpful to know what motivated DI to turn down the King. We do know that there are records of the Joseon era but I doubt that we’d know about DI pre-her concubine days.
My dear @OAL,
You are right, we all have a different perspective, based on our cultural aspects and our different paths in life and that’s makes us B.O.D’ers so unique in analyzing these stories.
Don’t worry, I understand your logic. It can happen in a written argument. It is not verbal. I cannot see you and you cannot see me, although you can picture me now, as I am typing this answer to you.
I know that you are fond of Deok Im. We all are, but as @Kate pointed out in her comment, there are things that are more friendly to us, than what was happening in the 17th century. I feel this is might be happening because of the novel mostly, since is an adaptation.
It is not an easy thing to write a historical fiction. You need to know many things to cover up such a period. The etiquette, the intrigues, the historical figures. The historical facts are there and need a lot of digging.
Why am I saying this? Because one my Teachers has recently written one and I know that she did a lot of research in order to write her book.
I got frustrated with the ending of Episode 14 because this conversation could have happened today, but in 17th century I don’t think so, not in that form.
@Kate, if I remember correctly, I think @grace posted a lot of historical info in the earlier threads about Deok Im. She indeed didn’t want to become Yi San’s concubine because she wanted to be free.
Historically speaking, in every period of time, women could not talk freely like men did.
In ancient Greece, I am talking about the Classical Period mostly, they were rensposible for their House (ฯฮฑ ฯฮฟฯ ฮฮฏฮบฮฟฯ ). Those who do talked, might be truly educated and mostly had an another status, like a Priestess or an Etaira (the modern word could be a Courtesan, but it keeps away how talented and educated those women were.)
In Byzantine Empire, the mother of the Emperor would do a test in order to find the perfect wife for her son among the most beautiful girls from well off families. Beauty was one of the particulars needed. The Ladies should be educated and yes there was a Court and many intrigues I don’t like! Yes, the Roman Emperors did many good things, like the Justinian Law (Code of Justinian) we are using until today.
If we follow the European History we would find similar things happening also to the West.
So, with all that in mind, I am very careful when I write something about a Sageuk, mostly because there are Historical facts I totally ignore. Since I don’t know those details I am trying to maintain a neutrality.:-)
An interesting snippet! but perhaps someone can attest to the quality of the web site? https://peoplepill.com/people/royal-noble-consort-ui-of-the-seong-clan
‘Royal Noble Consort Ui of the Changnyeong Seong clan (6 August 1753 – 4 November 1786) (์๋น ์ฑ์จ) was a concubine of King Jeongjo.
BIOGRAPHY
The future Royal Noble Consort Ui was born on the July 8, 1753. Her name is Deok-Im (๋์). She was the daughter of Seong Yun-u and Lady Im. Seong Yun-u was the slave of Hong Bong-han, who was the father of Lady Hyegyeong. In 1762, At a ten age, Lady Seong entered the royal palace to be trained as a palace maid. She then became a personal maid of Lady Hyegyeong, who was the mother of King Jeongjo.
In 1766, Jeongjo proposed to the Lady Seong. But, She refused it. In 1773, She transcribedใgwagjangyangmunrogใ(๊ณฝ์ฅ์๋ฌธ๋ก), which was the korean novel, with princess Cheongyeon and Cheongseon, who were little sisters of Jeongjo. In 1782, Jeongjo proposed to the Lady Seong again. But, She refused it again. So, he punished her slave. After that, They were married.
…..’
!
@OAL thanks for sharing your perspective.
For me to understand the plot, I often look for pattern and consistency to “know” the character. I share @Cleo’s thinking on this.
My view is if they need something dramatic for San to set the boundaries, the plot device used may not be very consistent to the design of DI’s character. I have no problem believing Hong DR would do something like this and think he can get away with it. I also have no problem believing that DI have to think for herself and use her own avenues to save a dear friend. She is loyal, she is brave, she knows how to read the situation to her advantage. However will she risk bringing a political war for San who is also dear to her? Just in ep 13 she said she doesn’t know how to help San and feeling helpless. Then the next episode she doesn’t trust San and worked out that risk is OK to take.
She was caught by Hong DR eventually. Her worry is that San’s waiting time may means her friend is dead, but also in the meantime, she could die without saving her friend but waiting till the next day to tell the Queen.
I am just sharing my intuitive first impression when watching this rapid transition. However, to get into the spirit of the show, I can see the perspective that San has no proven records that he would punish Hong DR. The court ladies, like the officials that got fired mentioned in the beginning of 14 (Hong DR wasn’t fired) could end up as collateral damages in DI’s eyes. I also get that DI have to completely utterly did her rejection and behaved in a way that San to accept it.
That’s when we get the separation. DI got to experience life free of San.
I do feel that is the show way of transiting and laying the explanation why DI finally accepts San despite the less than her ideal situation. Happiness – the question of how to find happiness in the limited circumstances they live it. The struggle of finding happiness is somewhat universal. In this story, the limits are the King’s duties. There is no doubt the King only loves her, and she always have that surrounding her whether she wants it or not until the complete separation.
The separation, is the life without the King she loves, happy? Or, is the happiness that she can have when being with the King she loves, enough to pay the price and pain to live with the king she loves?
Thanks @wondrous, for sharing another perspective of this.
@goldenashes97, one translation I found different when I watched the Chinese subbed version is โfirst nightโ. I think in Viki they translated the night spent together as โfirst nightโ. I didnโt fully understand why it is still โfirst nightโ (the date of first night DI needs to deliver) when the King and the concubine Yun have spent time together already, so I went to watch it in Chinese sub and they translated it literally as โjoining roomโ. Did they say โfirst nightโ or โjoining roomโ in the Indonesian sub? Currently I would go with the Chinese sub and interpret as spending the night together.
By the way, I am all prepared cry. (T_T) I thought without the extending to ep 17, we may have a chance for the drama to end in their happier times. With one extra hour and what @goldenashes97 saw in twitter, T_T, they probably have to show us the ends of their respective deaths. Even in drama world, nothing is certain except death and taxes?
@Cleopatra but she is in the series. We can see San and his mother mentioning the Queen on Episode 13. Right after San’s meeting with Grand Queen Gowager, San went to his mom to question her about concubine selection ceremony.
This is my rough translation:
San: How come you joined hands with queen dowager?
Mother: When the King (she said jusang, so she means San) tried to kill my relatives, I hoped the Queen Dowager was on my side. That’s why I was not against the ceremony. I had no reason to be. Besides, the ceremony is only formality. Your concubine has been decided.
San: Who? Is it HDR’s sister?
Mother: The Royal Secretary is a loyalist, so it will be good for you.
San: That loyalist met you without my permission. Is that why you arranged a meeting between him and the queen dowager?
San: HDR is from your clan, so you must be happy, mother.
Mother: Jusang…
San: Right. Everything is going the way you want it to be. The daughter of a noble family is my queen. And now the concubine is from your clan. Are you satisfied now?
So here, San is explicitly saying that he has a queen, although we can’t see her face.
@Cleopatra I went and rewatched the scene where Seo Sanggung was telling DI about the disappearance of court ladies, and there, I can hear her mentioning the queen.
Lady Seo: Gosh. Kyunghee went missing as well?
DI: what do you mean? Did someone else go missing as well?
Lady Seo: The uinyeo in charge of preparing jungjeon mama’s medicine also went missing. That’s not all. This is something only known by the senior court ladies. Some court ladies started going missing for the past few days. There are six of them. All of them are the court ladies of junggung jeon.
Jungjeon: queen
Junggung jeon: queen’s living quarter
So as per history, DR was framing Queen Hyoui.
Thanks @goldenashes97 I, too remember the first dialogue that you transcribed. I know I heard mention of the Queen as in San’s wife, the queen. It’s amazing that Show is able to keep her totally off camera LOL. I estimate that she was 23 years old when San became king. She lived until the age of 67. She adopted the son of Deok Im and of another consort (according to Wikipedia, Consort Su) as her own.
By rights, I feel that she should have made a few appearances. She’s the more important personage in royal life, than the concubines, so it’s been strange that she is sidestepped in this drama. However it could be because history itself says so little about her. She probably just lived a quiet life.
To be honest, these three episodes bummed me out. They showed me that DIโs life outside the royal courtโand away from Sanโallowed her to be independent and to do what she loved (calligraphy). She had learned to barter with merchants and to negotiate fair pay for her work. She was no longer under the constant threat of potential punishment if she broke a royal rule, etc.
But she is a pawn that can still be moved at the whims of the royal court. Sanโs mother orders her back to the court because her son is unhappy. Never mind how well DI ultimately could have lived without him.
I was always uneasy with the idea that this a supposed to be a great romantic relationship when itโs really a woman who is just going to be one of the kingโs concubines. But he LOVED her we are supposed to think. Yet we see him being threatening towards her when they meet again at his sisterโs palace. โI could rape you,โ he insinuates, โthen discard you, leaving you to be humiliated by your peers.โ Not exactly the pillow talk I want to hear in order to persuade me that DI should rejoin the king at the palace. (Sure, as someone has pointed out, he said this in anger, and to point out how well he had protected her before. But said just before she is to reunite with him made me uneasy and had me whispering to the screen, โdonโt goโrun away!โ knowing the ultimately tragic end that awaits her in the palace, according to history).
One question: where is DIโs brother who had wanted her to leave the palace a while back, and promised he would take care of her? Why did she end up working for the princess as if she had nowhere else to go?
@Viva it was also translated as “first night” In Indonesian subtitle. The word I heard in that scene was ‘hapgung’ which basically means to have sexual intercourse.
There are two terms that are often used when a King spends the night with a woman wheter it’s the Queen or a concubine: hapbang and hapgung. Hapbang is more subtle, as it could happen anytime and does not explicitly imply that the king had sex with the woman. Hapgung is more formal, and specifically used when the king wants to produce an heir. Usually, the queen dowager as head of court would pick the date for hapgung.
In that scene, as DI stares at Hwabin’s room with teary eyes, the frame cuts to San furiously walking into Queen Dowager’s chamber the next day. The queen dowager had just woken up, but she let him in anyway. San then asked her why she called DI back into the palace.
To me, this shows that he was so disturbed by DI’s presence that he had to ask about this first thing in the morning. I’m sure he could not do anything with hwabin last night if he was that distracted. No wonder why hwabin got really suspicious and later specifically asked DI to give San the hapgung letter.
Hey @Cleo, @goldenashes, @GB
I think there is a translation difference in Viki.
Ep 13 timestamp 51:26 in Viki
San: Everything worked out as you intended, Mother. My Queen will be a lady from the highest aristocracy. The new concubine will also be a member of the aristocracy and also a member of the Hong Clan as yourself.
However when I watched the same part in Chinese sub, it roughly translated to daughter of the aristocracy is my “Central Palace” ( which I think refer to the queen), like @goldenashes said.
Viki translation uses future tense, which can lead to viewers to think the queen hasn’t been chosen yet. Chinese sub uses something similar to present tense, which would be more like what @goldenashes said, a bypass reference to San’s Queen.
E 14 timestamp 1:03 in Viki
HDR: My sister was murdered! How else would she have died so suddenly? It’s the Queen Dowager who killed her. Her cruel acts of discipline caused my sister to perish.
Again, the same part in the Chinese Sub, it refers to “Central Palace”. The same term used in the conversation with San’s mother when talking about San’s Queen.
E14 timestamp 0:28 in Viki
Court lady Seo: The nurse who prepares medicine for the Queen Dowager has also disappeared.
Chinese sub used the term “Central Palace” again.
I don’t understand Korean, however, there are certain terms that are translated literally in the Chinese sub. For example the Crown Prince Palace is translated as “East Palace” in Chinese. I worked out Central Palace typically refers to the Queen.
I haven’t quite worked out which “palace” they would use for Queen Dowager though as I didn’t watch the entire drama in Chinese. Chinese sub just translate it to something like “Big Queen”, without any reference to “Central Palace”.
So I think if we only watched it in Viki, the bypass reference of San’s Queen is almost erased due to the translation of “Central Palace”. In Viki, it seems there is no differentiation between Queen Dowager and Queen.
Fair to say, it is a very hard thing to interpret without the language and historical background of the terms! I can’t be sure too as I don’t have any knowledge on this. Very interesting discussion here ๐
H8 all, This is just curiosity. The queen dosages picks the date when a concubine would copulation with the king for the purpose of procreation. Without knowing modern science, I wonder if there was a way to determine when a concubine would be most fertile. This, of course, is rhetorical. Here’s another-what if the king was not fertile (to be crude, shooting blanks). 8 wonder if fertility prediction has a flace in Asian medicine . Also, did they know when a concubine was menstruating? 0art of my curiosity has to do with whether aconcubine would get “fired” for failure to become pregnant and/or produce an heir. When I see these dramas, part of me thinks of the practical life of these women.
@GB unnie, i know right? The show is telling yet not showing us about these important characters is both offensive and funny at the same time. They expect us to just buy it. We kinda mind, but then again we really don’t. LOL.
A conversation between the director and viewers would probably go like this:
“So where in the world is San’s wife?”
“She’s there somewhere.”
“…. Where?”
“She’s from a noble family.”
“Okay…. But where is she?”
“… ”
“… ”
“Hey, did you know that San has a half brother called Prince Eunjeon? ”
“Oh. Which one is he?”
“Right. He committed treason.”
“Hhm. What does he look like?”
“Poor Prince Eunjeon. San just killed him. ”
“…..”
“K bye”
๐คฃ๐คฃ๐คฃ
LOLOL @Goldenashes, I can actually imagine that conversation!
Shall we just appreciate the fact that Show has not confused us with too many ‘small’ characters who don’t add to the main plot? ๐ Yeah, I don’t mind as long as the main romance sails along to its logical end.
@OAL you asked and I asked ‘uncle Google’ LOL. This well researched paper does not give us the answer as to whether they knew how to determine when a woman was most fertile (I kind of guess they might, actually… just from observation and all) but it does give a wealth of information of the concerns that were connected to Korean royal women in the 19th century.
https://www.usfca.edu/sites/default/files/pdfs/app_xii1_4_kim.pdf
@GB, Oooh Thank you-will enjoy reading
As to the telling/not showing, if they did that and added characters we’d be seeing maybe a 20 to 50 episode drama ala Empress Ki. One of my guilty pleasures is The Second Husband (very Predictable but fun). I’m now up to episode 80 something. So I guess our shoe didn’t have that kind of money.
Also a lot of issues arise for no Koreans in what’s lost in translation.
Our dear BOD contributors have done a wonderful job covering more territory than anyone else. I love all of this enrichment.
Kalimera Ladies!
Thank you @Viva for pointing out that there is a difference with Viki Subbers.
I was going to post the trascription myself, when I saw the first message @goldenashes97 posted earlier today and then @GB Unnie’s one.
So basically we are both right, since I only watch those episodes with English subs. Our Greek subbers would have translated the trascription from the english one, so the meaning of the phrase would be the same. Only if among them is a Korean speaker that would change.
Anyway, if they kept the San’s Queen invisible, that is silly for me. They could have refered to her or even show her in one scene. I don’t understand why they have shown us the Concubines and not the Queen.
@Viva I agree with you. Since we don’t speak Korean, we are missing all the good stuff.
@OAL we are learning a lot of new things, aren’t we?
@Viva ah I’m loving this discussion about translation! I myself cannot speak Korean. I only know a little from watching too much kdramas ๐
From what I gather, there are two ways that this show use to call the crown prince:
1. JEOHA; this is used by people whose status is below the crown prince.
โข SEJA JEOHA for the son of reigning King: Crown Prince Sado
โข SESEON JEOHA for grandson of reigning King: YiSan
2. DONGGUNG; this is used by people above the Crown Prince: The King, Queen, His Mother, and Aunt.
The word ‘Gung’ in Donggung actually means palace, so I guess that’s where translation “East Palace” came from.
In Episode 14, if we listen closely, HDR used the word hu-gung. I am not familiar with this word, but this could be where “Central Palace” came from.
Later, as DI ask for proof, we can hear DI say “jungjeon mama”, which is a term to address the Queen.
Thanks again @goldenashes!
And LOL, believe it or not, it was my husband who drew my attention to this little article, on the bed scene that was edited to be less errr… interesting, and he’s not even watching this show!
https://www.allkpop.com/article/2021/12/junho-lee-se-young-hilariously-recall-how-the-director-stopped-them-during-their-bed-scene-in-the-red-sleeve-so-the-drama-wouldnt-be-rated-19
So this explains why the kiss was not easy to do. They’d gotten so chummy and thought that no kiss was required … now really, how could they ever have thought the viewers would be happy without a single kiss???
@GB… I watched this show when it came up in my youtube feed.
I wished so badly I had a grasp of Korean… I could hear them talking about the show + having fun…it made me smile a lot neverthless….https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nVehLrQZglw
Perhaps a super fan with good Korean would be prepared to watch this and let us know the gist? It looked so much fun!
I feel that we are all immersed in a significant piece of Korean modern cultural history!
Thanks @Kate, I FFDed through the almost 2 hour radio show. It did look like a lot of fun, and it was good that they had the in between times to rest and chat. Still, it must be somewhat stressful to know that there were cameras trained on them at all times.
Loved Junho’s long black coat! Se Young looks nice with that simple hairstyle. It probably made getting her into the wig easier.
@GB… Yes indeed to the ‘somewhat stressful’. The way the public eye is trained on its young stars over there… forensic attention to what they do.
But they did have fun nevertheless…especially Se Young…he seems shyer than her… What a good team they really complement one another!
His voice is gorgeous btw… my elderly mum commented on his voice when I was visiting her recently and watching the Red Cuff in the family living room.
@Cleopatra, Yes indeed! BOD is full of great learning experiences.
My take on making San’s queen invisible/extraneous is that she wouldn’t further the plot. The main story is about our particular future concubine and our prince/king. It would be interesting to see any interaction between the queen and DI, but I guess the historical record does not contain much. This brings to mind the drama, Rookie Historian that shows so much about how the record was recorded and what was omitted. From that drama it seems that the life of women, whether well born or not isn’t recorded. And the whole purpose of that drama was to show how a few women actually were able to become the recorders of history much to the dismay of men. I was happy to read somewhere that the queen and DI got along. I imagine, in that society, the king’s priviledge was to have a choice of women to whom there was a continuum of fidelity(emotional, political, sexual). The women understood this. I also guess that because of maternal mortality, women may have been wary of sexual intimacy but could have craved affection. Another though along this line is how did the gisaengs prevent conception? I think I’ll ask our sage Google.
Also have to say I’m shipping our two leads. There is something intelligent and electric about them that the BTS footage captures. They did say that they like to work together again. A part of me wishes that they’d follow in the footsteps of Son Ye Jin and Hyun Bin, but not the Song Song couple. I know film sets create a sense of intimacy that is fleeting,, where peoples’emotions are tested and where eight away from family and friends takes a psychological toll. BUT, Ah, the romantic wishes/ fantasies of an elderly lady……
@Kate @GB I think dear jlml718 is working on translating the radio show looking at her Instagram. Thank you very much jlml718! @Grace and a few of us have shared her links before and I will share again:
https://www.instagram.com/jlml718/
https://jlml718.home.blog/category/2pm-members/junho-%EC%A4%80%ED%98%B8/
I think I will go back and read her translation of the Red Sleeve novel once the drama is finished.
@OAL watching the radio show they seem to have a lot of fun! Junho seems quiet and Se Young is very sweet and lively.
* light spoiler starts
The article here give us enough spoilers to warn us about the sad ending.
https://www.soompi.com/article/1505952wpp/lee-junho-and-lee-se-young-talk-about-their-kiss-scene-in-the-red-sleeve-mbc-drama-awards-and-more
On one hand I am looking forward for the sweet romance but on the other hand I am going to be very sad to watch to inevitable. I am very invested in their happiness after 15 episodes. I think sad endings often imprint a bigger impact on me so I am learning to accept that in the next couple of days.
* spoiler ends
@goldenashes @Cleo I feel that they left the Queen out to let the viewers just focus on the romance between San and DI. I suspect the Queen is a political alliance rather than true love. This on one hand make it over simplified, at the same time, take away the not so romantic conflicts so we don’t need to process. Out of sight, out of mind.
Yes I tend to interpret nothing could happen that night with Hwabin. It is too distracting for San.
@Viva – fab! Thank you for letting me know and I am grateful in advance to jlm718 for her work on this.
Thanks @Viva! I look forward to watching the subbed radio show if jlml718 does put it up. I’m so grateful for her hard work!
Yes, if both Junho and Se Yong end up crying when the read the last episode script, we can imagine that it stays true to history. Just reading about how Se Yong is going to watch it alone at home, with her pet, makes me tear up.
What a lovely Show. I’m glad I didn’t bypass it. I look forward to a ‘sad’ New Year. LOL.
@BethB, Agreed! DI had far more autonomy and agency outside the p Alice and away from the king. Extrapolating, had the king not seen her, she may have gone on to establish herself outside of the princess protector. She was literate, could write and made her own money. She was not subject to the c whims of royalty, including the king, who could be cruel to her, especially when it was in his interest.
I have susspended disbelief when it comes to the romance. We view DI’s life from a 21st century perspective. Given the lens of her time, DI could not be faulted for loving a powerful man who showed her favor(a relative term) and actually heard her at times. I think about the sheer amount of bowing and scraping that the king was afforded. I am pretty sure DI was dazzled.
From a viewer’s perspective, I love our leads who show a range of emotions so well. They are great scene partnerss and are part of my pleasure enjoying their work reacting to each other.
@OAL oh no, unnie! Please don’t wake up my shipper cells! It’s been so long since the last time I shipped two actors, and I don’t want to fall down that rabbit hole agan ๐
Tho I have to admit, I enjoy their interactions behind the scene as well. Watching Junho and Seyoung off screen helps me calm down when San and Deokim’s story got overwhelming.
@Viva lovely! I shall wait patiently for the sub by @jlml718. ๐
@Kare, Love these two. It looks like they had a very happy set. Did not get any prima donna vibes. From what 8’ve seen of K Drama v and movie behind the scenes footage, there seems to be a better work ethic among the csts with much harsher working conditions. Looks like a lot of night shoots (that screw up one’s circadian rhythms), work in very cold or hot conditions in either very light or heavy costumes, lots of a g e and experience related hierarchies, etc. AFew years ago, wh e n I first started watching these dramas, I was surprised to see the condensation coming from the actors’ mouths ( in very cold temps.
Our two leads also were so funny on the radio show. I don’t understand Korean, but I got that they were doing fan service with a certain amount if joy. Loved SecYoung being game about dancing, putting on the wings and bunny ears and waving around the props. You don’t get this good attitude from our Hollywood types.
@goldenashes97, Guilty as charged. Remedy-please ignore tholis ahjumma…
@OAL – could not agree more. There is a delightful hard-working – game for anything – humility here. And as you say it is the case with so many Korean stars. I loved the lack of ‘cool’ with which See Young approached this and she encouraged the slightly more reserved Junho to do be silly too!
My feeling is that they are relaxed friends rather than potential romantic partners… just a feeling … they seem to josh around in a way which suggests a lack of the tension that might be there if they were developing something of a romantic relationship under the public gaze. But I would be so happy to be proved wrong! One of them could be keen on the other and masking it??? It would be great to see them work together again on another quality production.
They are talking here about the songs they use to get into the mood for their roles: https://zapzee.net/2021/12/28/what-songs-do-lee-junho-and-lee-se-young-listen-to-in-order-to-get-into-their-roles-in-the-red-sleeve/
and they just won the Best Couple Award at the MBC 2021 Drama Awards…
Hi @Kate, Thanks! I went to check. What great news! Congratulations to our OTP!
https://www.ibtimes.sg/mbc-drama-awards-2021-winners-62012
And here are some photos…
https://www.soompi.com/article/1506218wpp/stars-rock-the-red-carpet-for-the-2021-mbc-drama-awards
@GB… I should have added that Kang Hoong won best new actor, I think our lovely supportive court lady, Jang Hye-Jin won best supporting actress… can’t tell for sure from the pic… and there was a lifetime achievement award for Grandfather King actor presented by Junho…
Apologies, was too excited for lead couple!
ps just saw your link @GB above the link to pics! All the details there for everyone else…
@GB just saw your link to the results above the pics link… wow! So many awards. It was an achievement award – I think – for Grandfather King – for the Red Sleeve.
Clearly too excitable to be an entertainment reporter!
Catching up here after taking some time off kdramas, and also because I want to have a good closure for The Red Sleeve this weekend with you all. Actually I haven’t watched episode 15 because I have seen spoilers and I want to savour it slowly.
@Kate, I feel the same with you about the Best Couple, that they are relaxed friends rather than potential couple. But we never know. I love how SeYoung is such a fun mood maker and makes Junho be more fun than he seems to be, I’m not sure. I have not seen him in other settings before Red Sleeve.
I will prepare my heart for the tears, it is something that I expected because they said “history is the spoiler” and I agree. Reading @jlm718’s translations of the novel, it will be not too far from the novel. Yet it is not a tragic one like Moon Lovers. It is one where they had the opportunity to love, just that fate worked against them.
I am perplexed by DeokIm’s stand on how she wants to love San…or not love him. Probably it was her first encounter with Royal Concubine of the previous king that sealed her impression of how a Royal Concubine has such a different life and treated differently. She doesn’t care about being sent off in a humble funeral, unlike Head Court Lady Jo who wanted it.
@Kate, The Red Cuff Sleeve swrp the awards-our two leads separately and as best couple, new actor, supporting cast, best miniseries. In the immortal words if Homer Simpson, Woo Hoo. I love this series. This is a highlight for me e and I’ll be sad to see it ending.
I also watch the daytime drama, The Second Husband. It is pure soap and a guilty pleasure. It’s two leads also won best actor and actress here is I think Viki will stream the show. I will definitely watch to see our actirs’ speeches and also as best couple.
@OAL…thank you for this and will check out the show you recommend when it comes to Viki.
@Kate, The sho2w is lready on Vik8 Kokowa.,So far it has over 90 episodes so it demands something of a commitment. My recommendation for this show is to skip episodes because the story repeats a lot. It is good to use as a filler show. Some is downrightvfunny. Lots of dirty tricks by the female villain who tends to throw things. Some stuff is downright tacky. There are funny side characters like a mother-in-law, her friend/boarder, and the prodigal son of a bakery owner. You get comic relief. Also it seems like these people wear a lot of coats indoors. My bottom line is that The second Husband is not a recommendation f o r anyone looking for something more serious and if one chooses to watch, skipping episodes is recommended. The c show is still airing but at more than 90 episodes in, it’s easy to 2atch and keep up with one in five episodes, for example. I think this show will go to 120 episodes.
@OAL – thank you – I just checked though and it tells me it isn’t available in my region (UK). Booo. It may become available later. I’ll keep an eye out for it.
@Kate @Grace I also feel they are relaxed co workers who got along well too. I was watching Rain or Shine (Netflix’s name)/Just Between Lovers (Viki’s name) back to back when watching TRS. The romance there is just as heart wrenching and easy for me to engage. So I figured Junho and his co stars are top notch professionals who are very good at portraying the love line naturally making it believable.
By the way I recommend Rain or Shine. It is a project Junho did a few years ago and his acting was already very natural and convincing even back then! In that story he is someone who has nothing. It is not light-hearted but very emotional rewarding. I think @GB likes that show too. Very different to San who almost have everything. I am glad to see his and Se Young hard works and strong performance were recognised last night! I felt long before the recognition, their abilities are already up there.
I have read up more Chinese articles about the details of the camera work in TRS. I think that helps me to understand the dynamic of the relationships between San and DI better, and Grandfather and San. Credit to https://www.beauty321.com/post/45718
I am not sure auto translate would work so I briefly translate and share the key points here. You can scroll through the screenshots they try to explain:
1: The camera angle of is tilted to show who is in the power. The one holds higher power is higher in the picture. For example, the King Grandfather is higher than crown prince. However when he lost his memory, the crown prince is higher than him. Like wise, when San was talking to DI as crown prince, he is higher in the master/servant relationship. But when it comes their love, DI is higher, as she is the one who holds the power.
2: King’s path: In ep 13 when San needs to select concubine, DI was watching the candidates, San was watching her. This picture shows in their paths, there is no one between them. What stop them is their different paths of in life. DI can’t reach San in her path. San is the proactive one who tries to walk out to reach DI. However, Queen Dowager stopped him. Also the Queen Dowager wanted to walk the King’s path with San. This is hinting the relationship between San and Queen Dowager.
History Spoiler**
According to history, she has become powerful after San’s passing.
History Spoiler ends***
3: Where crown prince is surrounded by the dragon screens – San is always stressful and helpless, trapped under Grandfather. Grandfather looks relaxed, but San is scared, because King Grandfather is always so unpredictable.
7: The lanterns: DI is San’s light. When they were little, San was surrounded by warm light and accompany by DI in that walk to see his grandmother. However they separated after a short time together. Little DI ended up the one walking in path with the lanterns, missing and wondering what San was doing.
When San got given the King position, there were lanterns.
When they met again in ep 15, they were also surrounded by lanterns.
These lanterns/warm light symbolise their encounters in life. In San’s dark life, DI appears as the warm light, accompany him to walk his path so he is not lonely. Tragically, although DI’s heart is always thinking about San, she can only walk with him for a segment of his path, shine a light for that part of the journey. At the end, King San has to face his life alone.
Also, I have also read some explanation why DI and San behaved so badly to each other in their fights. Their fights are โloverโs fightโ. They stabbed each other at their worst possible spots. For San โ the most important thing is DIโs love, so DI said the worst possible thing to attack him saying she doesnโt love him. For DI โ the most important thing itโs her freedom and pride (not death), so San said the worst possible thing to attack her weak spot to say she will need to stay at the back of the room.
However, they both love each other. San always runs away when he behaved badly (asking DI to leave or leave the princess’ house). DI still thinks about San, looking tearfully his way when he is not looking.
@Viva – lovely and interesting info and thoughts re use of camera angles and the symbolic use of lights + the wounds inflicted during the lover’s fight. Thank you.
@Kate, Today, for the first time my Viki feed had the wrong video with partial translat8ons.instead they presented a food show with a couple 9f Americahdns and Europeans with Korean translations over the English with the Seco n d Husband c translations superimposed over that. I went back several times to make surecI wasn’t hallucinating. 5urns out, I was sane…
@Kate, I love the UK. I visited when I was a younger adult and have wonderful memories. I loved the railroad and traveled from London to the Isle of Skye, mainly staying at B&Bs. Met a lotnof wonderful people on the railroad. Please stay safe..l
@Kate – Check if it available on Kissasian.
https://kissasian.li/Drama/Second-Husband
I see upto Episode 75.
You don’t need a login to watch on Kissasian. But I created a login since I wanted to download some stuff to watch on international travel.
It is nice to see that the drama and the actors got so many awards.
Awesome!!
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Kalimera Ladies!
I am glad that JunHo and Se Young won the best couple awards !
I have enjoyed your comments but I cannot participate at the moment!
Be safe!
@OAL – good to hear. I’ve never done that journey – I like the sound of it. Have been to Skye but travelled from Oban. I am in one of the UK hotspots for infection at the moment..so am being super cautious. Thank you for concern.
@angelwingssf – Thank you for this… I just checked Kissasian and it started ok but when I clicked on ep 1, it took me all over the place to investing platforms and other sites..I ended up on Amazon Prime! I don’t know if it is my being here in the UK.. or something about my search history but I decided not to follow it up for now. I may try again next week when I am feeling more alert after the holidays!
@KAte – what I have learnt with all these free sites, is you have to have some protection from their ads. I have installed these on my chrome and use mac os. This works on Windows too.
I have ghostery, Standsapp, Adguard Adblocker, uBlock Origin and poper blocker. Just google on chrome extensions to install and Kissasian works beautifully and the quality of the content is also great.
@angelwingssf, the two leads if this daytime drama won Excellence Awards at the MBC drama awards. The in drama is a so AA pybfun in ride.
@angelwingssf = thank you for the tip – will check out these resources.
On another matter… we have been discussing the leading couple’s chemistry in Red Sleeve… Lee Seeyoung said, rather sweetly that Junho graciously went along with her sense of fun and that was what created the chemistry that people observed between them. He smilingly agreed.
@Kate, Lee Seyoung also called him Big Brother-Well there sails my ship. LOL๐ฅด
@OAL…commiserations!
I have this feeling that her free-spirited nature may need someone a little less conscious about how he comes across… not said as critique more thinking of compatibility…
ps… doesn’t tell you much about Junho’s type but he does seem to want to put her on a pedestal: ‘Junho described his ideal type as โa person that I feel good about.โ He went on, โIt’s really hard to find someone like that. Even if you manage to beat the odds and meet someone like that, it’s not easy to approach her.โ26 Jan 2018’