Final two episodes!
Is anybody going to do a kiss analysis? hahaha.
Gifs from kdramaxoxo’s tumblr
Let’s enjoy the show!
81 Comments On “Red Sleeve: Eps 16 & 17 Open Thread”
Comments are closed.
Final two episodes!
Is anybody going to do a kiss analysis? hahaha.
Gifs from kdramaxoxo’s tumblr
Let’s enjoy the show!
Comments are closed.
Ha! It’s only you who can do a kiss analysis. Can you do the bed scene analysis instead? Pretty please? 😂
That kiss was a pulled kiss and it was called for, DI was rude there. I’m aghast at what she said to him. 😱
Thanks @pkml3. The kiss scene reminds me of how difficult it was for them to film it. I enjoyed the BTS of it and how they started out aghast that they had a kiss scene that day, which the script and PD had not mentioned before. It’s hard to do a romantic kiss with a chum, but that’s what they did, as professionally as they could.
@agdr03 did you read about the bed scene? It was so funny how unsettled they were, when they hadn’t done all that the script called for yet, and were told to stop. They wanted to continue LOL.
I count the hours before the Show is aired.
Kalimera Ladies!
Thank you for the new thread @Packmule3!
A…the conclusion! Let us see what we are going to see.
We know that we will cry in Episode 17, based on what JunHo and Se Young told to that radio broadcast. Still, “The Red Sleeve Cuff” made us ponder a lot here on B.O.D. about many things.
Tomorrow we will know… Be strong my friends!
@agdr03, @GB, @Cleopatra: I’m almost scared to view the last episode, I really really wish for a happy ending after all that San and Deok Im have gone through in life so far🤞
I’m eagerly waiting for the bed scene too😊 So sad we are in the last week of this wonderful drama.
I stopped watching this drama around episode 8 for no reason at all. I plan to binge the rest this holiday weekend—and read the comment section as I go along. Happy Birthday, BOD! thankful for you all
@Phoenix – Me too. After so much of pain and suffering, I wish that there was a happy ending. We should consider the time that DI spends with San as a happy ending and giving birth to children and being a mother even though it was short as something awesome. The fact that San only loved DI and displayed his love in his own subtle ways, without forgetting her and expressing his love would be sufficient for me.
@pm3 please do a kiss and bed scene analysis! I think I read the best bed scene analysis when you did that for 9 Tailed lol.
@GB I think since is Joseon time, they can’t do much. 😂 Watching the BTS, the director is quite careful about what they could and could not do in Joseon time. E.g. What Hawbin should do around San in a scene. She said to her in modern times you would hold his arm, but since it is in Joseon you would just stand close to him.
I think I will get up early tomorrow my time to watch it. I don’t think I can wait till nighttime! If I watch it during daytime, I have to answer questions to my kids why the characters do this and that when they walk pass.
There was one Australian show I loved years ago called OffSpring. I knew it beforehand one of the beloved characters is going to die and I still haven’t watch that episode even now. Luckily this time I have you guys here so even though I am dreading to watch the finale and I will be brave to face it. 🙂
@angelwingssf: I agree. I do consider being married and living together for few years at least and having children to be some returns they both got in life, even for a short time. And as you said, San clearly loved Deok Im the most throughout his life, so it was indeed an enduring love story, even as per history. So I will be happy if the drama shows us that.
I feel giddy just by looking at the still cuts. Not gonna lie, I’m most excited about thebed scene 🤣
At least they would have really good times together fulfilling each other’s need for their love even if it is shortlived. I felt like deep down DeokIm really loves San, after all never had any affections for anyone else. I am only going to be able to watch on sunday night and I will not look at spoilers till I have finished watching it! :O I want to enjoy every bit of it!
Also, in Hotel del Luna, as we watched we all knew this two was going to be separated but they left an open ending that soothed the pain of saying bye. I hope there would be something like that. I remember in the translations of the novel, there was a part where San was dreaming of DeokIm after she died. I also wish there will one day be a sequel of the modern reincarnated them 😛
Just finished ep 16. Such a tender and poignant episode. Lovely facial expressions shared between San and Deokim. A lovely episode. San is adorable here in his expressions of loving contentment and concern.
The writer kept it real too with the bitter sweet nature of the concubine’s status.
I am sad that she keeps some of her feelings to herself but understand her motivation in that context. I don’t quite know how she manages it personally!
ps do those of us who watch on Viki register as far as ratings are concerned? Junho said he’d re-do the bath scene and perform a song and dance there if the show achieves 20% ratings this weekend!
Can’t watch ep 17.. will have to wait a day or so. xx
ps have watched some key scenes but it’s been such a journey to get here that I can’t quite make it through the final episode. In some ways I would have been happy to leave it at ep 16.
Happy New Year Ladies!
I have also watched Episode 16 and I have enjoyed it so much!!!
Highlights: “I am Prince Sado’s son!”
The Bed Scene!
Finally, we got a proper translation from Viki regarding the Queen… 😉
I will watch Episode 17 tomorrow!
@Cleopatra – glad you did!
My highlight was the soft expression on San’s face when he went to see Deok Im and promised just to spend the night – utterly adorable.
Hey @Kate! Happy New Year!
I do hope you had a great day today! Yes, it was awesome as well!
Or the laugh harder scene! 😀
I also liked that Deok Im-Ah was kissing Yi San and she was smiling too…!
Happy new year back to you @Cleopatra!
Yes..the laugh harder scene! … I had forgotten that scene!
And yes to Deok Im smiling and sharing the enjoyment when kissing San…
@Kate,
It was so good to see happy times..
I know that we are are going to cry in 17. Btw, it is 1 hour and 40 minutes long… 🤨
@Cleopatra,
Agreed… after all the tension and uncertainty… so good to see them happy … it felt precious.
Will try to strengthen up for ep 17… This group will be really helpful for getting through it.
I just watched episode 16. I’m dreading episode 17 because it looks like it’s going to be sad, so I’m putting it off for now.
I don’t understand DI’s status in this episode. Was she still just a court lady after the king bedded her, without any special status? If so, was she in the situation he had threatened her with in an earlier episode, that of being set aside and a point of ridicule among the other court ladies (except her friends)? The king had said she would be kept in a back room and made available to him once he bedded her–and she was in the annex, seemingly alone and without anyone serving her. The only indication that things were different was that her hair was up and she wore two rings (don’t know the significance of those). She was still referred to as Court Lady Sung.
I was really hoping for something more romantic–like a ceremony making it official before they slept together. I wonder if it was presented this way because that’s what happened historically?
It’s still hard for me to see this as a love story I can fully embrace, knowing that the king had a queen and probably still that other royal concubine while he was bedding DI. I’m going to be angry at the king if he doesn’t attend her funeral, per the tradition his grandfather followed.
Hey sisters, I finished ep 17.
Spoilers
I think the ending is as good as it can be. Given with the historical events.
Is it the past? Is it a dream or is it his death? I guess it comes down to what we want to see. I chose to see it as his death but with happiness. No one knows what it is like after death. With the rainbow they put on the screen, there is some space to indicate this is the place after the rainbow. I like to think that behind the rainbow is their eternity of happiness.
There is a lot to process. They have planted a lot of openings in the drama and now we are seeing the closings.
The snow and the book of Odes
The poem reading has always been my favourite scene. It was good to see it earlier, (in ep 4?), it is good to see it again now in ep 17. I also felt it is used to lay down the opening of San and DI’s partnership, her death, his death and the closing scene.
DI: The north wind is chilly, the falling snow is thick. If you are affectionate and love me, I will hold your hand and go with you. You are so modest, you are so slow, but oh, there is urgency! The north wind is chilly, the falling snow is voluminous.
San: If you are affectionate and love me, I will hold your hand and go home with you.
DI: Are foxes only red and ravens only black?
San: If you are affectionate and love me, I will hold your hand and go in your carriage.
So we get to see San walking out of the palace, snowing. Just like the poem setting where the snow is thick. He knows DI loves him, he has his closure, he wants to hold his hand to go home (which we saw DI’s residence), go in her carriage (to me it means leave, leave the world to join her)
The flowers
Notice the branch of on the vase at the last scene has no flower but branches only at time stamp 1:27, but suddenly have flowers starting to blossom again at time stamp 1:30 We talked all along flowers are their love story. Although the love story in this world has ended, it seems blossoming again after he closes his eyes
Has he forgotten about her?
I’d say not, however he does what he needs to survive which is San’s character. Is that place her grave where we see the time lapse? Let’s see if there is any explanation later. If that’s the grave, it shows he never forget about her.
Does DI love him?
Just like DI said, “Do you still have to ask? If I hadn’t wanted you, I would have run away no matter how. Do you not understand that it was my final decision to stay by your side?”
I think she does. The golden colour scent porch is something she made when she was outside the palace. She was thinking about him even when she is outside of the palace living a pretty good life. She kept all those letters when they first met, and that book that reminds her of Crown Prince San.
I think it is fair that San doesn’t get to hear “I love you” because he can’t give her his everything. DI is entitled to just save up that little, so she doesn’t need to give him everything.
Let me process a bit more and wait to hear what you think. 🙂 I sobbed here and then. The part I cried the most is concubine selection when Court Seo cried for San, asking Head Guardsman to stay by San’s side after DI’s death. It’s so empty, he still has to choose someone even though his true love dies. He may have someone but Court lady Seo understands how angry, lonely and helpless he is.
Still crying when I typed T_T
Hello again! (Spoilers below)
I just finished watching Episode 17 and here is my first phrase that came into mind when I saw Yi San in that bed…:
An Ode To Their Love.
What we have witnessed from the beginning until the ending is an ode to their true and everlasting love. I am obviously talk about the Historical figures, but we saw their historical fiction counterparts over here and it was so beautiful executed!
@Viva I cried in that scene too. Court Lady Seo was amazing. She won that Prize fairly! That scene had so much depth…
Basically, I was crying after all the emotional scenes and as like you, I am emotional now as well as I am typing those words.
The Last episode had everything in it. We cried, we laughed and we smiled. I was happy for that ending. It is hopeful for them and for us!
Se Young was amazing in all her scenes in the first part. She stole the show. I am glad they used the foreshadow phrases and scenes before the actual passing of Deok Im’s because it would be too sad for me.
What to say about JunHo? I think his portrayal of Yi San was everything. His crying scenes were so pure and heart wrenching. I am glad we got to see him like that.
This is the best Historical Tv Series I have seen by far!
My second one is Faith:The Good Doctor.
@Viva lots of hugs. We knew that we will cry tonight!
I am glad it was made with such love that we cried tears of a Great Love! Because such a Love exists and it is good to be witnesses of it.
Kalinixta with some tears of happiness, sadness and joy.
I will return tomorrow for more!
@Cleo thank you! Holding hands and lots of hugs. I am still emotional thinking about the scene where San went through DI’s belongings and seeing those apology letters. How they were happy and carefree when we first “met” them, how cute and fun, and to their inevitable ends in line with the history. I think those time with Crown Prince San are precious moments in DI’s mind, and us as viewers too. T__T
Ahh, correction about the use of “little” in my earlier comment. I think the golden scent porch represent DI’s “I love you”. It is not something little. It is something huge. Just like having San 100% is important to DI, hearing “I love you” is most important to San. DI is holding on that very last part to live on. She almost gave the porch to San on the day of finding out her pregnancy, however given San’s King’s duty to see the Queen, she held back. So, like San can’t give her 100%, she held on to that and wouldn’t give that verbal confirmation to San. For her, at least there is still something that is within her control, to live on. Her actions speak of love though. She went to see the King even she was ill herself and read to him. Her last words are “Do you not understand that it was my final decision to stay by your side?” T_T
The saddest part about their love story is both can’t do what they really want. They both want to give each other 100% but couldn’t due to San’s role as King. San understood his duties and do not dare to think otherwise. I hope in that last scene they can do what they want. He can escape his King’s duties and just stay by her side watching flowers, just as DI requested after the death of their son.
Waiting to hear more tomorrow @Cleo. Indeed it is the Ode of their beautiful love. T_T
I like the poem and flowers blossom symbolisms. It gives us a lot of room to interpret that they are happy somewhere.
I haven’t even watched Ep 17 yet, and I’m already starting to cry. 😢 I will take a short break and come back in a couple of hours to watch the finale. Gotta pace my emotional self. 😓 😣
@GB holding hands sending hugs. It’s OK. We can get through this. It’s OK to face it and it is emotional rewarding 😭😭😭
Hugs 🤗 🤗 all around to everyone! 🤗 🤗
That was a good ending. I found myself cry-laughing at the dumpling meal DI practically forced San to eat. I felt that our couple were not just acting but impishly playing the fool in front of the camera. Those dumplings looked like the ones I tried my hand at LOL.
I applaud Show for sticking close to history while focusing so much on the main love story. We are slightly comforted for San that he accomplished quite a bit of what he planned to do, and that despite personal loss, he stands out as a good king, who put his people first.
I liked the little side note that DI’s brother managed to have a son who was taken under the wings of the royal guard.
If nothing else, these end episodes have highlighted clearly, the great constraints under which the people in the palace lived. I can’t help considering that death, was among other things, a happy release.
The awards to the actors were well deserved over and over and kudos to the PD and crew.
For a warm perspective on the choices, (or lack of), of the characters in The Red Sleeve Cuff, here’s Mimi’s thoughtful and touching article:
https://thetalkingcupboard.com/2022/01/02/the-red-sleeve-an-ode-to-choice/
Very very moving. Watched in tears with lump in throat.
Very good to read the helpful reflections here – all of you who have seen it.
I did read somewhere that San visited her grave 265 times during his life… not sure about this King forgets Uibin narrative… perhaps it was designed to underline what a dutiful man he was.
ps also very well done… it was a good watch as well – the same high quality of story telling with changes of pace and perspective. Beautifully done. I am very glad I watched it.
Yes… looking at your comments @GB and @Viva and &Cleopatra…did enjoy the retrospective dumplings and the foreshadowing function of the Ode… that was comforting.
I felt the writer weaving meaning in to this narrative – responding to the sense of powerlessness and transience of joy and love it conveys and hinting instead at something beyond or, at least, choosing what our lives are about even despite ‘ the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune’.
@Kate, Yes, the theme of choice runs through this Show. I recall an earlier scene where DI chose to have her friends help with transcription, even though they made mistakes and she had to spend the night re-doing their work. She said that she chose to do this because they were happy to work together on the transcriptions and it was a choice among very limited choices, that she could make.
Her friend, Son Young Hee, before her execution, spoke of knowing the price of her choice, but not regretting it.
The other theme that is connected is the acceptance of one’s role in the life one is given to live. Instead of rebelling at the responsibilities, or chaffing at the lack of choice, one needs to reach peaceful acceptance and do one’s best. Even the Queen Dowager felt herself in an impressive prison, while living in the palace. But she endured and history has her as regent for a while, later on.
San was the best model of this role acceptance. The most mature young boy, who embraced his role in all seriousness. He took to heart his position of sky to his people, considering his subjects, his children as well.
Show comments on how life is not lived alone, but in community with friends. In kdramas we are used to seeing the extended family of friends, and in DI’s case, her friends were even closer than family. Her loyalty towards them never flagged. I liked how loyalty was a seed sown, that brought in a good yield at the right time. DI’s continued attachment to Hyegyeong, with her services that saved San more than once, bore fruit multiple times as well.
I felt that despite the misfortunes that DI had no control over, she lived a successful life. Her earliest goal to save money for her brother, and to see him installed as a Royal Guard came to pass. She carried out her plan by applying hard work and her talents.
She did always have a choice, though limited, and she made her choice when she had to. Like most of us, not every choice was without some regrets, and sacrifices, but they were also not without their rewards. She calculated her gains and losses and made her choices, and San did too, as man and as king. They took in their stride both the pain and the joys that came with life, and carried on unfaltering.
I applaud a Show whose writing and execution, clearly brings forth the history of the times, without reducing the characters to puppets, and at the same time offers us words of wisdom to take with us for our own lives in the 21st century, wherever we are.
@GB… beautifully put! I really like your overview here. So helpful.
Two misfires for me in Ep 17… need to express them while they are in my mind:
I think it highly unlikely that a court lady would dare to say to the King ‘I thought you had forgotten her’… even if this was his formally expressed intent.
I found Deok Im’s expression in the final scenes…the fixed smile …somewhat glazed/wooden… was she trying to convey that she was at that point communicating with him from the perspective of eternal contentment? It detracted a tiny bit from Junho’s wonderful emotive performance at that key point.
Just found on another discussion that eunuchs would ask three times for a king to come back to life… Deok Im asked the King three times to return to his duties in his memory/dream/vision. This time he chose to stay with her and prioritise their love for one another.
@Kate,
I mentioned this in “The King: Eternal Monarch.” The rite is called “Chohon.” Or “Invocation of the Dead.” You can use the search bar. There’s a poem by Kim Sa Wol with the title “Chohon.”
I interpreted the persona in the poem as refusing to call the lover three times (by deliberately avoiding to call her name three times) because he refused to let her go.
I didn’t tell you all about this lest it would depress you then, but when I heard their poetry reading session, it reminded me of Emily Dickinson’s “Because I Could Not Stop for Death.” That is, he would not, or could not, stop for her, but he would stop for her death. 🙂
Kalispera @Kate and @GB Unnie!
I am not typing so far, because I wanted to calm myself down from last night’s Ending.
Here is a wonderful FMV Ella uploaded just a while ago and it is a masterpiece…
https://youtu.be/plUm6QsJSss
Enjoy! <3
@Packmule3… thank you for kind restraint!
I’ll check out both the poems you mention. This is proving very educational!
[As an aside, I didn’t get very far with The King the Eternal Monarch when it first came out, but may be able to enjoy it more with commentaries from the BODers.]
@Cleopatra…Thank you.
‘Were you swayed by me… or was I swayed by you?’…
Just watching and being reminded of one of my favourite moments… the early, unvarnished interest of San in Deok Im…
@Kate I noticed Hwabin is in the same outfit (hot pink top, white dress) all the time so I can’t really tell the passage of time. I wish they give her a different top at least so we can differentiate.
Thanks @pm3, what a beautiful poem! I didn’t watch TKEM with BOD back then so missed so much details.
It is a show worth rewatching as they always planted some details that I have not noticed during the first watch. In ep 16, when San spent the afternoon with DI, he said he wished that he could stay in that moment forever. Then in ep 17 he got what he wished for. Despite it is the same location and they are supposed to repeat what happened in the past, I notice in ep 17 where San walking in the garden they included flowers in the scene but not in ep 16 for the same scene. To me, that indicates it is not exactly the past. With the “Chohon” pm3 explained above, plus the history, this is his death. And yes agree @GB, death is a release to them.
In a way I understand why we have ep 14, so when DI said those things to San before her death, I am not surprised. Also we can see how San started from thinking she loves him, thinking she doesn’t love him, think it doesn’t matter anymore but always hope there is some love there for him. He spent all his life waiting for an answer and he got her kiss at the end.
That moment is not just San wishes for. DI said the same too:
DI: Will the flowers bloom again when spring arrives?
San: Are you talking about that tree in the garden? That tree…
DI: Will blossom once more, some day. Some day. And when that happens everything will be okay. I would like to go flower watching with you. Just like the days when you were still prince, and I a court lady. Just like those summer days when everything was Okay.
@Cleo thanks for sharing the video. It reminds me that they often use their hands to say “I love you”. San always wanted to touch DI’s face but couldn’t. So does DI, San’s face is always so unreachable for her, started from the dream she had when facing San in the library. The first thing we saw in the morning after the first night is DI touching San’s face. Right before she fainted visiting San, she reached to San’s face. Right before she died, she wanted to touch San’s face too.
Chasing happiness in a situation beyond our control is universal, isn’t it? We won’t be in the exact situation but there are always things beyond our control no matter how hard we try. @GB beautifully written! San never complained and understood his duties and made the best out of it. I like what you wrote, “They took in their stride both the pain and the joys that came with life and carried on unfaltering”. It gives me some closure after you remind me that DI was successful in her life. So was San.
Thanks for the reminder about Chohon @pkml3.
We saw it when Young Hee died. DI called her name not three, but four times, she let go of her friend, plus some and grieved.
I felt it was also beautifully rendered, sort of in reverse, by DI’s spirit reminding San 3 times plus 1 that he had to go back or could still go back to where he belonged.
In his mind as he dies, San sees himself waking up with a start, with his head on DI’s lap.
DI : “Were you having a nightmare?”
San : “You are here.”
DI : “I was since earlier. You were sleeping on my lap the whole day, were you not?”
She wipes the perspiration from his face and holds his hands.
DI : “It is time for you to leave. You were here for too long.” (First time he’s called to leave.)
He agrees while staring at her. The trees are in bloom as she walks him to the gate.
“Deok Im-ah, I will never love like my grandfather. Until the very end, I will protect the one I love.”
DI : “What are you saying all of a sudden? … I understand, so hurry up and go. You are really late.” (Second time he’s called to leave.)
He turns to go and reaches for the gate. Then he seems to remember how DI died before her hand reached his face. He made a choice to turn around. DI was still standing there unmoving, waiting for him with a smile.
He retraces his steps to her with tears in his eyes. Taking her hand, they walk around the pond to stand under the flowering trees.
DI : “Why are we suddenly viewing the trees?”
San : “The flowers have bloomed again. I did not think we would be able to see them again.”
DI : “Look at the flowers later. You have to be on your way.” (Third time he’s called to leave.) DI “Everyone is waiting for you, Your Majesty.”
“Deok Im-ah, years have passed and at times, I was not sure myself. Do I really miss you or has the past been fondly glorified? Now I know. I missed you and the days I spent with you.” He takes her hand. “I will never let go of this hand again.”
DI gives him the fourth and last chance to return to the land of the living : “Do let go. You can still go back. Go back to the place you belong. You have become a great king all along until now.”
San’s choice : “This is where I should be. It turns out we do not have much time. And we cannot afford to wait. So love me. Please. Love me.”
She touches his sad, yet smiling face and embraces him as her response. Then she kisses him.
His thoughts : “If this is a past memory, it is fine. If it is a dream, it is fine. It does not matter if I am dead. I will always choose this moment with you and hope this moment will not change. For this moment to be forever.”
DI’s voiceover : “So the moment became forever.”
San had heard the Chohon to return to his people whom he had put first for decades, and it was only in death that he could choose not to return but to stop for his own sake.
Binged the last 9 episodes in the last 48 hours. Now I remember why saegeuks aren’t my favorite—- If it’s happy/funny/contains too modern elements then it takes away my enjoyment because it feels too inaccurate. If it’s actually accurate then I really can’t enjoy the love story because usually polygamy and/or class differences are involved and that just makes me feel sad.
The actress playing deok im never really grew on me but I started to not mind her as much. I feel like comedy is not her strong suit. Junho is further cemented in my top actor category.
Usually I’m one for trimming the excess but I’m glad for the extra episode and didn’t even mind too much the weird court lady cult—although that’s probably because I made use of my ffwd button.
I feel like this show and the people involved wanted to show the love story in a more realistic way vs the fairytale that I imagine people turn their story into during retellings so really my only quibble is why his wife the queen was left completely off camera. I feel like that would’ve also highlighted a role in the palace that is also fraught and precarious and adds even more to why their “love story” is interesting for its time. I do appreciate that they mentioned her after the pregnancy announcement and it definitely made me want to wallow in the despair and unfairness of it all but I just wouldn’t have minded knowing her character. Just a tiny bit of her.
Anyway, glad I watched the show. I learned a lot. Also glad I didn’t go into it expecting warm fuzzies because that’s not what this was.
I’ve caught up with all your commentary on the posts as well and I thank all of you for your brains and knowledge and willingness to do the research and transcribe the dialogue.
@Cleo, Thanks for the video by Ella. As usual she gets the most appropriate scenes and sews them seamlessly together. The only thing I’d prefer is if she used a lower volume for the background music, since I’d rather hear the dialogue, rather than loud music.
She did a couple of nice ones for ‘Our Beloved Summer’ too.
@Viva, Thank you for transcribing the words of DI and San that would determine San’s wish in his dying. Yes, I don’t mind re-watching this show, sad as it’s ending is. You’re right that the second time we see the scene of the flowering trees, it was no longer in reality. But San recalled DI’s wish to walk in the garden with him and it was the predominant memory of their happy time as he died.
I liked the non-verbal communication with the hands. When words were said, they could not be taken back. Actually DI had said loudly that she liked San. She told her friends and San had heard her, but she covered up the truth with a bluff. That was what Kyung Hee explained to San, as she gave him DI’s keepsakes, but he might not have understood this fully. However, when DI responded with touch, there was no prevarication. She was all in.
I felt DI was true to herself all along. She held herself as the dearest person, and one she would not blithely push herself into a situation of suffering, but at the same time, she did not want to be separated from San forever. The separation would be a greater suffering for her, perhaps. She accepted every decision she made, with their drawbacks with grace.
I note with interest that among her keepsakes is the pouch she made. Each of her friends who made a pouch had someone they each wanted to give their pouch to, but when DI was asked who would get her pouch, she was silent. We see in the end that she kept the pouch for herself. She gave it to herself as the most precious person. However she also kept every letter of apology she wrote to San and the first book that they’d squabbled over her writing, even before she knew that he was the Crown Prince. So the degree of importance of one person over the other varied, but became moot because DI chose happiness no matter how fleeting. 🙂
I enjoyed watching both episode 16 and 17 back to back. Cried, and laughed watching it. I am with you guys about death and that no body could have stopped it. I guess when San was sleeping on DI lap, he probably had a dream about losing DI and that is why he was so startled to see her.
I had watched Yi san before and hence knew the story but was curious as to how the director and writer would spin the tale. Since this was more about DI and San’s love story, it was beautifully done. I enjoyed that the ending was neither a definite yes (san died) or no (he was just dreaming ) kind of ending with the rainbow in the sky and the flowers that bloomed in the garden.
I was a bit miffed that San had to question DI about her loving him repeatedly and don’t know if it probably was the case with her rejecting him (as in history), but she should have voiced her concerns to him about what she felt and stuff. But him being the king and her holding her tongue, it became difficult to see that. In the end, I did see that there was a scene where she tells him if she did not love him, she would made any excuse to run away.
I am glad I don’t live in that time period or environment where you are stifled to contain your thoughts and actions.
I would have liked seeing their child and them being parents for a short bit of time, since San and DI’s child lived for 4 years. That would have been exceptional addition to the story which would soften the blow that both went through afterwards.
for the most part, I felt pity towards San – he had a horrible childhood, adolescence, no friends, scummy family – and in-spite of all that, he turned out to be kind, caring, and a just KING. Loved that about him.
Even the friends he had, one (DI) kept pushing him away, since her independence was more important to her and also, him being king was a problem since she had to share him with others, not being able to see him whenever she wanted (all could have been worked out had she spoken and discussed and negotiated with him), the other (Hong) who would go out of the way and work to benefit him and his family – and hence turned rogue since lying and deceiving came so easy for him. He could not even give credit or tell the truth about issues till his deathbed. the third (bodyguard) was the only one he could count on – though not smart, was the most loyal and San knew that about him. Both the Eunch and the court lady were extremely loyal to him. I truly wish that DI would have lived and had children and San and DI live a very happy, healthy and long life. Just imagine what all San would have achieved, had he had DI in his life. Even without her, he achieved plenty – With her it would have been four fold. He had a good brain and an open mind.
DI grew up with her friends from a very young age and they were all in the same standing as others. All court ladies and all serve the King or the crown prince. so, they could share and be great companions for life. San missed that. Even with DI it was be a King and a court lady – a difference in Status and that plays a huge role in everything in life. The most he had were his brotherinlaws, but since he was king, they were also at a lower stature than San. I felt that he was more free and a normal brother with his sisters.
San was envious of DI’s friendship with her court ladies and always had to need to feel wanted. “Love me, Love me, Love me” was what he was asking DI. When his mother told him – that she wants him to be happy, and nobody would care if he was happy or sad as long as he was a good king, it was so well done. Even in the end, when DI friend brings DI things and wanted to tell him how much DI loved him, he would not let her. He always wanted to hear how much she loved him. (This reminds me of “Our beloved summer” where the FL is questioning the male lead about how much he loves her….). People want to hear those words. It should have not been avoided by DI.
Sorry – rambled a lot.
I came across another blog who’s owner seems to also have kept up with Jeongjo’s life in history, and who adds in what might have happened in history compared to the Show. It’s a long but interesting read. I skipped parts and read the parts on Jeongjo and Uibin/DI.
https://vanbun.blogspot.com/2021/12/the-red-sleeves-differences-between-k.html
It’s interesting that accounts do not agree on what caused Uibin’s death. I read somewhere that she had a miscarriage (actually it seems there may have been earlier ones?) and in Wikipedia that she had liver cancer. So we are not sure.
Enjoy!
@GB, I have a different interpretation on the scent porch :). Back in ep 14, the princesses made their scent porches for their husbands. With her choice of golden colour (the King’s colour), I interpret DI made it for San but San is not her husband to give. In ep 16, the night that she was hoping San can come to celebrate the pregnancy news, she took the porch out again. However he must go to the Queen because he is the Queen’s husband. That is the bitterness of their love. She took the porch but didn’t and couldn’t give it to San because he didn’t come that night. I don’t think she gave it to herself, but I think the porch bag carries all the “I love you” she couldn’t say to San because he is also someone else husband.
I also come to terms about the harsh words DI said to San in ep 14, ep 15 and ep 17. She uses those harsh words to get San to stop loving her. In ep 14 and ep 15, after all the harsh words she said, San asked not to see her again (sent her away from the palace, left the princess’s house). So when in ep 17, I interpret that after her death, she wants San not to wish to see her again. She hopes he can move on with his life, whom she believes has a strong heart, would live a long life to protect his people, his nation.
Also, behind those harsh words, I came to understand how important freedom is to her. Yet, she was willing to sacrifice that to be with San! San’s greatest fear was spoken out by the Queen Dowager – he worried that she only stayed by his side out of fear. But remember, DI never fear San, or death. The most important thing to her is her freedom to do what she wants. However, she can’t bear the separation from not seeing San again and knowingly give up her freedom. If this is not love, what is? She gave up the most important thing to her to stay by San’s side. T_T. So I can understand her sentiment not asking to see San if there is a next life, so she doesn’t need to face that painful decision again and choose San again which she probably would.
San repetitively said he wouldn’t love like his grandfather. How does his grandfather love? Exactly which part? I went back to the conversations I can think of:
In ep 1, there is this conversation the King grandfather has with the child DI:
King Grandfather: That person, went through great lengths for me and our future. But now, I can’t even stay by her side in death. No king has ever attended a concubine’s burial. How cruel is that? What do you think?
Child DI: Your Master is Right
King Grandfather: Is that so?
Child DI: Your majesty is certainly right!
King Grandfather: Evan a young apprentice maid like you knows loyalty. You are here to pay respects. Let us both spend some time with Royal Concubine Yeong.
She used to be beautiful in her younger days. She was a court lady, like you. The ends of her sleeves were very red. Every time I saw them, my heart ached so much. Why did it hurt? When the court ladies dye their sleeve ends red, it shows that they are the king’s ladies. At the time, I was just a lowly prince born from a concubine, I never dared to dream to be throned. However, as time passed, I received Heaven’s will and became Ling. I was awarded the crown, and she came along with it. I deluded myself into thinking I could do anything I wanted in this world.
Child DI: Why was that a delusion? Since you are the king, can you not do anything you want?
King Grandfather: Do you know how many things a king cannot control?
Child DI shakes her head.
King Grandfather: You would be stunned when you eventually find out.
King touched some ice sculpture.
King Grandfather: Even ice can’t be colder than my heart. I .. have finally lost her. Now she won’t even come back.
In ep 7, After the fishing session with King Grandfather, San thought:
” What is the King affection? Is it to kill the child of his love so that woman lives as a ghost of her former self? I’m different from you, Grandfather.
I am going to protect those I love no matter what. I am never going to love the way you loved.”
Not sure I found my answer, but now finishing all the episodes and went back to ep 1 to hear King’s grandfather conversation, it is a completely different experience.
Lastly, it was very moving to see San crying over the DI’s courtlady’s outfit. It is very moving to see San asked DI to love him at the ending scene. My heart sank when hearing him asking her. Who would not be moved?
Slightly off topic, is this the same San whom I cried a river for? 😅
https://youtu.be/3wdKVGglp8c
Ahh, correction. it is episode 15 that DI made the scent porch with the princesses not ep 14.
Hi @Viva, thanks for the reminder about the pouch being meant for San upon the receipt of good news. I’ve omitted re-watching the 2nd half of this show, and have quite forgotten.
What does it mean though, that she never chose another opportunity to give it to him? If it was meant for him, was it meant for only that one occasion which he did not/could not spend with DI? Holding on to it, was a sign/a reminder that San was never fully hers. Perhaps that was why, although she gave herself to him in all other ways, she always held back the words: ‘I love you’. That was the only area in which she could exert her ‘free choice’.
I like that San’s epitaph for DI says unreservedly (I can’t find the exact words yet) that he loved(s) her. If one of the blogs I listed above is correct, he went many times to her tomb and he did not ‘forget’ her as the show implies. He considered her the only woman he ever loved.
To bring a lump to our collective throats, here’s a link to the lyrics of ‘Letting Go of Your Hand’ by Lee Sun Hee. With much thanks to jlml718 who subbed it and more!!
https://jlml718.home.blog/2022/01/04/lyrics-eng-trans-2pm-junho-the-red-sleeve-ost-part-8-%ea%b7%b8%eb%8c%80-%ec%86%90-%eb%86%93%ec%95%84%ec%9a%94-letting-go-of-your-hand-lee-sun-hee/
One thing I forgot to bitch about. The actress playing DI is not a good kisser. Unless she was expressing herself as being closed off even in those instances.
Just between lovers is in my top 5 favorite of all time shoes. So deliciously melo and also based on true terrible event. However, I did not like watching their kids scenes. I was afraid that meant Junho was bad but then I saw a clip of him in …must do research to find name of drama… and whew, he’s not the problem.
The actors’ greeting and thanks to us and farewell speeches to their characters at the end. *Sob sob*
https://jlml718.home.blog/2022/01/04/eng-sub-2pm-junho-the-red-sleeve-the-final-behind-stories/
Credit: Sel from twitter did a comparision of the dream scene in ep 16 and 17.
https://twitter.com/loeydeux/status/1478403573226479617
I can spot 3 differences:
1. When San woke up in ep 17, he has tears. I am very impressed Junho has subtly changed the emotions!
2. Flowers in ep 17
3 Also the colour of the scenes. Ep 17 version is brighter, lighter and whiter. Ep 16 has a warmer yellow tone.
Also the an eng sub version of BTS of ep 16 and 1, credit to filwuju
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ERC7wHHReJM
In here we can hear about the director and Junho thoughts about the ending scene in their bypass comments.
@GB, yeah she would have many chances, but my interpretation is the show uses that particular event to highlight the bitterness, expected regrets and imperfection in their love. Her shared husband cannot appear in key moments throughout her life due to conflicting duties, even though San much rather to be there with her, he couldn’t.
Thanks for the song link T_T.
For exit therapy I watched a variety show with 2pm (Junho’s band) in it. Very funny! Netflix Men on Mission season 6 ep 26, 2021-07-03. Enjoy!
For Lee Junho fans, here’s his last vlog as Yi San. Cute how he tried out his limited English.
Thank you for all the wonderful insights into this drama. I finished it the other day and up to now I’m still pondering. 🙂 I cried, my heart fluttered with the sweet scenes and I cried again with the pain that YiSan and DI had to go through.
I wondered how many times YiSan showed and said that he loves DI but she turned him down all those times except when he was asking her for the last time. I liked that right till the end he was giving her the freedom to chose and make a decision. Her reply was holding on to his hand, no words and I thought that was enough. But then after her acceptance of him, she still kept her inner thoughts and didn’t say it to him. She never said to him that she loves him, she had her way of saying it in her own way. Maybe it’s just me but after giving birth to their kids, it felt like she didn’t really embraced him fully. I thought she understood and accepted the life that she chose but even at the end she couldn’t say to YiSan that she loves him. That’s probably her way of keeping a bit of herself. I’m just whining and just being picky, I know her life as a concubine was very hard but YiSan tried his best too. That’s why I was feeling for YiSan when in his death he even asked her to love him.
Anyway I’ll just think that the real story is different, that DI did say to King YiSan that she loves him. 🙂 I just happy that I was able to have a glimpse of their love story, and it was a happy and a sad one.
I love episode 16 and this kdrama is my highlight for 2021. Lee Junho, wow! Those tears, where do they come from? I am officially a fan.
Here is my favourite ost from the drama.
https://youtu.be/_GhGgxA64EQ
https://youtu.be/JHf3TZVNVBY
Let’s watch this. ☺️
https://www.soompi.com/article/1506932wpp/2pms-lee-junho-and-lee-se-young-are-in-talks-to-appear-on-radio-star
Howdy! Not sure if it’s been posted here but I thought I’d share it. ☺️
https://www.soompi.com/article/1507360wpp/2pms-lee-junho-discusses-potential-to-reunite-with-lee-se-young-in-a-modern-day-drama-winning-awards-for-the-red-sleeve-and-more
Thanks @agdr03, Junho is such a personable young man. I trust that in his ‘ambitious’ plans, he will factor in having a wife and family! 🙂
Thanks @agdr03. Not long to go to see their dance now 🙂
Hopefully @GB! A lot of good news around other entertainers lately. Like Park Shin Hye and Hwang Chan Sung. They are all getting married and have kids. The fame of being a successful celebrity seems to make that path harder for them. I am sure they know their price, but still hope they can have some sort of normal when it comes to family!
Have you checked out the latest eng subbed NG cuts. Very funny!
https://youtu.be/rM3A-Ti7FC4
Welcome @GB and @Viva ☺️
You and me were thinking the same @GB, I thought his career goal won’t be too hard to achieve especially now after TRS but then where’s the bit about settling down. Maybe not yet for him and his happy with his cat family. 😃
Hi @Viva, thanks!
I keep getting nice notifications for English subbed BTS but I’ve not had time to watch the last few. I’ll have to save them for later to enjoy. I know that even when I caught some unsubbed ones, I found them hilarious too!
IKR @agdr03… I am especially of that ahjummah age where I worry that nice young people don’t get married because they’re too focused on careers. LOL. I did watch a video that mentions K celebrities who are married. Some of the info surprised me LOL.
I’m with you @GB. I guess it really depends on their life goals. I mean we’d like them to get married but for some reason having a relationship in K-ent is never easy. I feel for them when it gets hard.
I prefer a straight out statement rather than being caught by Dispatch. 😂
Hi Everyone,
I saw this a while back but could not post a comment. I had to digest too many emotions. Also, I wanted to read other’s views.
I was a bit frustrated as others had mentioned with DI not fully giving her all.
-DI never actually said her “I love you,” while I understand (based on what others have commented) it was hard for me to fully accept it. To accept a love story when someone holds out their feelings seems lacking in something.
-I was sad for San. A hard life, a sad ending for his children, and he stayed behind to remember his love and his children. This was my biggest cry of all.
-I like the Show’s ending. If it was a dream, death, or past, it gave San an okay ending. I did cry when he asked DI to love him. Till the end he has to ask.
-I don’t think DI has a good ending, I mean in the Show. Meaning it is not a HEA ending for her, for him it is. She wanted San for herself as equals. How does the Show’s ending accomplish that? No kids? Is it in that small space? lol
I’ll take the reincarnation trope for $500 Alex. DI as equal partner with San and full grown kids in 2030 😉
I think the Show was really good despite my picking things apart and wanting a different ending lol I was a bit mad at myself for not being happy with the show. LOL Like why can’t I be happy.
Thank you all for your POV, it helped me decompress after the show. I am now on a hiatus from k-dramas (except for Goblin) or other dramas that do not give me a full blown Hollywood/Lovey dovey Happy Ever After ending. I usually like crying for a good drama but I need a break.
Hi @Carolina
Before the ending, I looked up DI and San in Wiki and saw their ends in history. I was wondering if the show would follow history or invented a different ending. Sadly, in history it is not Happily Ever After for them. So, I guess the show chose to follow history but be creative about afterlife (my choice of the interpretation of the ending, but I understand it can be a San’s dream if viewers choose to interpret that way too).
Since the show ended two weeks ago, I read a lot of Junho, Se Young and PD Jung interviews translations on Twitter. I felt that the team’s intention is for DI and San to reunite at the end and San finally got the confirmation that he has been chasing for (by DI kissing him first not the other way round).
filmwuju from twitter (thanks filmwuju!) has started translating PD Jung’s interview, so that may give us some insight of her direction of the drama is.
https://twitter.com/filmwuju/status/1481239024836935680
@GB, further to our discussion earlier about the bed scene, PD Jung provided an explanation why she cut out some. There was a part where San supposed to kiss DI’s tattoo but apparently it wasn’t pretty enough when they tried it in rehearsal. She wasn’t happy about the hand gesture and untie the ribbon may be associated with San’s threat earlier on in ep 15, a bad memory for DI. They did the kiss in the morning instead. DI never got to touch San’s face but she could now. PD Jung wanted to show that it is not about the King and the Court Lady receiving grace, but a man and woman who are affectionate to each other.
I really appreciate how much thought Jung PD has given about each shot. That’s why we can find a lot of details for discussion and it is a show that lingers on.
Also, I wonder if the real-life San and DI would ever imagine after 200 or so years, people are still mourning over their deaths, beyond the boundary of Joseon.
@Viva LOL, I’m imagining that the real San and DI are laughing their heads off in heaven/the afterlife, at providing us with so much entertainment and grief.
Thanks so much for the link and for the info on the bed scene. It’s nice to know that so much thought and care was consistently given to the show. The PD did a good job, laughing all the way (I like her amused cackling).
I’ve actually got several jlml subbed videos to watch, on Junho and the comments/interviews etc made after the show. I’ve just put them on hold. I too needed a break from ‘The Red Sleeve Cuff’ after all the emotional investment. I need energy for my other shows!!! 😉 😆
Thanks @Viva for the link! Will go check it out! It is a beautifully directed drama. Like @GB I am so many subbed videos to watch but I don’t know why I am hesitating. It is a heavy drama with many angles and thoughts to delve into and I am not ready to absorb it. I think I like dwelling in happy stuff. I like where they ended nonetheless.
Howdy! Here’s something to look forward as well. It’ll be nice to see Junho and LSY again. ☺️ I want to see them in a modern drama. 🤞🏻
https://www.koreaboo.com/news/red-sleeve-junho-2pm-lee-seyoung-reality-show/
Have a good day everyone! 💐
Thank you, my dear @agdr03. What an honour to have a variety show just for the two of them. MBC is quick to take advantage of their phenomenal popularity. 😉
If we haven’t had enough of The Red Sleeve Cuff, here’s a link to jlml718’s Red Sleeve blog. She’s done a heap of work subbing the videos, interviews etc. Much thanks to jlml718!!
https://unlocktheredsleeve.wordpress.com/
Kalimera Ladies,
I do hope you are all okay. I tried to distance myself from “The Red Sleeve Cuff” a bit because it got under my skin.
I have read your comments and I have saved them in order to watch the videos later on.
Here is my contribution to you:
The Red Sleeve OST Piano Collection by Shin Giwon Piano
Thank you @Cleo. The music sounds so nice. I too have to distance myself. Right now I’m buried in Just Between Lovers. It takes a lot of energy. And tonight there’s Our Beloved Summer. 😉
Hey @Cleo! Thanks for the music. I started listening it but got too emotional. Funny I am OK to talk/analyse the interpretation of the story and the production details but I can’t do the music. Music bought me back to the first hand viewing experience. T_T
I have just joined the Our Beloved Summer thread, see you there 🙂
@agdr03 is it this one here?
https://www.soompi.com/article/1508703wpp/the-red-sleeve-to-air-special-program-over-lunar-new-year-holiday
Hey @Viva!
I wanted to take a step back. I was listening to the piano version up some time until an hour ago. There are some stories that do that to me.
Yes, we – @GB and I, have answered to you on “Our Beloved Summer”!
See you there !
Great to see this…Jun-ho and Song Joon-Ki together at Jun-ho’s fan meeting this weekend – a surprise for Jun-ho!
http://koalasplayground.com/2022/01/22/junhos-fan-meeting-has-surprise-guest-in-good-friend-fellow-top-star-song-joong-ki/
Thanks @Kate! I saw the video of it today. Junho was really so surprised to see Joongki. LOL.
@GB – delightful eh? Junho is quite thrown isn’t he?
I had no idea they were long established friends. I am quite a Song Joong-Ki fan so really pleased about this friendship.
Two for one etc!
I saw photos yesterday and I found out about it. What a cute video!
Thank you @Kate and @GB!
@Kate @GB @ Cleo It was nice to see that! Especially when their friendship went way back. Now I have a growing appreciation of SJK and felt I should go and pick up Vincenzo again. I think I stopped in ep 5 or something.
@Viva @Cleo @Kate and all Junho fans,
Here’s a blow-by-blow on the Moment fan meeting. It was the 2nd day ie the day without Song Joongki’s surprise visit I think, but still, it gives an idea of what Junho did (ie the amount of work and energy he had to give) practically on his own. I got the idea from this that he had a 2-day fan meeting and this was the 2nd day.
It was an eye opener to me and I only read part of it and scrolled down quickly to the end. I think a more leisurely read and viewing of the pics are in order when I have more time.
Enjoy!
https://thefangirlverdict.com/2022/01/24/thoughts-on-junho-the-moment-fan-meeting/
@GB…. this was so helpful to have. Thank you.
Makes sense too of what struck me as an oddly subdued response when Song Joong-Ki arrived… polite clapping!? It must have been exhausting for Junho to carry this off! I hope he gets another fan meet sometime soon when he has more support and the fans can be noisier…!
Just to clarify I meant *on stage* support, other performers/presenters… rather than fan involvement. I am sure it was very well attended. He is at peak popularity.
An interesting interview with insights from Lee Se Young for those of you still reflecting on the show:
https://thetalkingcupboard.com/2022/01/30/lee-se-young-allure-january-2022-interview/
https://www.hancinema.net/hancinema-s-news-lee-junho-and-lee-se-young-talk-about-the-red-sleeve-157762.html
More on the January 31st Red Sleeve special episode…
Does anyone know where we can see this? Many thanks!
Hi @Kate
I’m not sure but maybe the hancinema news is about this video that jlml718 kindly subbed. This was an iMBC show “Holding on to the Red Sleeve”, a show held after the series ended. I hope the link works for you. It’s a link to jlml718’s Google Drive folder and file.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/18YvPmHcTU2efGKhdAPGHEn1I5uanujpf/view
@GB I really enjoyed this. It’s a 6 minute extract but great fun. I love the way the Koreans celebrate a successful drama!