I’ll write my highlights for Episode 16 later. For now, I’m leaving my letter grade for Hotel del Luna. I’m following the US standards for grading. An A- is between 90 to 92, an A is 93 to 96 and an A+ is 97-100.
I’ll add more comments to this post as I answer questions. So check back here and the Ep 16 Spoilers Post.
1. Season 2?
No. I don’t think there’s going to be a Season 2 for Kim SooHyun. Sorry. The story is complete as it is and the Hong sisters will move on from Hotel del Luna…as they should.
If I were MaGo #100 aka the bitchy goddess, I’d tell them, in my cryptic and acerbic way, to get a life.
2. The synopsis
A new poster Leti informed us (or at least, me because I’ve never heard of this before) that there’s a synopsis about Manwol. This excerpt is from soompi. “A woman who has been cursed for a sin she committed in the past. Because she cannot find a soul who has committed a greater sin than herself, she has been forced and trapped to be the president of the Hotel de Luna for 1,000 years.”
Here’s Leti’s concern stemming from that synopsis.
See what is one of my concerns? Greater sin than MW… I won’t complain about finding it out by herself, but people started talking about season 2, which I found hilarious mainly because of: if the guy MG decided to give a drink really has committed bigger sin than MW, how many years his grudge will last? 1500 years? 2000 years? Maybe my train of thought and ability to create scenarios are too shallow, but how somebody can imagine his story? And if so, I guess it would be, after all, distinctly similar to MW’s.
And here’s my answer.
When the synopsis mentions that Manwol cannot find a soul who has committed a greater sin than herself, the synopsis is NOT referring to the NEXT soul to replace her as the next president of the Hotel.
No no no.
It means that she cannot find that Captain because he trapped himself as a firefly. He’s THE soul who committed a GREATER sin than herself. lol.
See now? We Bitches have been telling the fangirls that the Captain is a bad one and we ARE darn right.
Changmyung, aka Capt G. Firefly, escaped his just punishment because of his curse. That was his *excuse*.
But as it turned out, the punishment in which he cursed and trapped himself, was far worse than reincarnation. lol. He could have been reincarnated like Mira or Yeonwoo. But nooo. His curse doomed him to be an inconsequential firefly with a twinkling butt that nobody noticed for a 1300 years.
lol.
3. Yeonsoo’s blinking eyes
Remember? I said that he blinked his eyes when he met Chansung.
Hotel del Luna: Ep 10 On Ghost Eyes and Blinking Eyes
Yeonsoo is a person gifted with “eye” of seeing broken relationships. And he must have seen and recognized Chansung as the son of the merchant who had brought Manwol to him and his mother.
4. Chansung’s jealousy of the chubby comedian Kim Joon Hyun
I’m reposting my comment with edits.
CS has been jealous of Kim Joon Hyun. Manwol thinks highly of KJH. She fangirls him. She thinks that KJH can never do wrong. She regards his words as absolutely true. He’s a god in her eyes. lol. She’s even showed an undignified side of her when she ran for a chance meeting with KJH.
It would be very unnatural if Chansung didn’t feel jealousy for this guy. However, like a typical Harvard scammer that he is, he fakes his nonchalance. He shows his jealousy by trying to copy KJH and outdo him. It’s said that imitation is the best form of flattery, but emulation is a sign of jealousy, too.
He’s learned to stuff his mouth with food like KJH. He checks out the restaurant that KJH goes to and reserves the table where KJH sat for her. But, on his own, he’s learning to locate the famous/best restaurants (i.e., the library café), so he can recommend them to her or bring her their specialty. Like the sweet rice cakes in Ep 15.
He even gets KJH’s signature for her but “steals” – or appropriates his KJH’s “I love you” fansign as his own. He couldn’t tell Manwol directly, “I love you,” so he used KJH’s autograph as a stand-in for his own confession.
Although he can’t be an absolute foodie and TV personality like KJH, he endeavors to be the premier “food connoisseur” of Manwol’s tastes. He specializes is on Manwol’s food preferences. He’s the Michelin guide for Manwol’s food.
He’s the Michelin “star”. lol.
That’s why he’s amused when he realizes that he’s been jealous of himself all along. Sure, it pricked his ego and pride that he wasn’t getting the credit he thought he deserved for inspiring Manwol and steering her to becoming a foodie herself.
But he’s happy to discover that he’s never been forgotten. It amuses him that he’s just been “twisted” and reversed because of MaGo6’s interference. All along Manwol had been chasing the WRONG reincarnation of himself because MaGo twisted Manwol’s memory of him.
He assumed that MaGo6 erased the memory of that encounter with him 200 years ago when along MaGo6 only changed him and made him the MIRROR IMAGE of what he was.
Thus, instead of a handsome, lean guy like him who SCOLDED and nagged Manwol for her own good to sell horses and go on food trips, MaGo turned him into a chubby man who was all gracious, kind and tolerant of Manwol — the exact opposite of what he actually was during that brief encounter. But he still made a lasting impression on her. She liked him so she changed her behavior and heeded his advice.
But now, Chansung appears in front of her, in the exact opposite of Kim Joon Hyun. But the mirror image is one constant theme in this drama, right? Except for the Captain, we’ve been seeing the mirror images of the former selves of the characters. Even Manwol. She’s been slowly transforming and showing the mirror image of her old self, too.
So, there you go.
Chansung’s amused of his own jealousy and realizes that, throughout time, even in their past encounters together, she’s always fallen for him in whatever form and shape that he was in.
That’s important because it’s reassuring. But I already mentioned this in my Ep 15 Quick Takes. I said that he learned an important truth when he went back to 200 years ago, met Manwol for a brief time and she confessed to liking him instantly. He learned that through time immemorial, she’s always liked him, and him alone. And that should reassure us that he’ll meet her again sometime in the next life.
Gotta run.
More later.
What fun… grading. I’d have given show the same grade, I feel. It hit the mark for me in the areas I tend to lay emphasis on such as a good, coherent plot, character growth and consistency and my own preference in plot movement ie characters who become more a team than not by the end of the show, as long as it makes sense. Oh, and also an ending that is ‘logical’ for the plot. Maybe for all these alone it would have been an A- but the music and the beauty of the show pushed it up to A or even A+.
I was wondering whether it was the logic of the story that brought on this particular ending. A couple of us were hoping that it would also be logical if MW could have lived out her remaining days with CS, not as hotel owner but ordinary mortal. But when I think how her existence was lengthened unnaturally by the energy of the moon, and that from the beginning it was said that she was tied to the hotel and the tree (or vice versa), then I suppose it makes sense that as the tree and hotel were not meant to continue, then neither was she. Still, being a fantasy, the Hong Sisters could have written in some fantasy logic to have given a happier ending.
MW was given a reprieve thrice,… once as a child when Grim Reaper was eager to take her, and again when she searched for the hotel that CS as a boy had mentioned to her (which just happened to fit her name). He said that a granny selling medicine (Herbalist Ma Go?) had told him about that hotel. And a third time when Yu Na passed her the wine, so three times’ the limit, I’d guess.
I like what you say about the going back 200 years was to show CS that regardless of when it might happen, a meeting between MW and CS would result in her liking him. So the early episodes’ scenes where she says to him more than once: “You have completely caught my fancy” actually have their callback at the end. I did wonder why she said that before when she’d only just met him.
About things like a synopsis, etc found elsewhere and not as part of the show, I understand that besides the ‘fake’ Hotel Del Luna website there is also an Instagram account. Show has either people doing a whole bunch of publicity or avid fans who are creative, or both. I wonder if there are a whole bunch of synopses on each character out there as well.
One thing that amused me … there are so many Ma Gos, and generally they work in tandem but there is the rich Ma Go who brings wealth, and there’s the hungry and super poor Ma Go who brings poverty. MG can actually work at cross-purposes to herself. Similarly with ‘Rest House’ MG1 and ‘Dead Should not Waste Time on Earth’ MG4.
I liked that at the end, Man Wol walked the bridge at first sedately with a lily, then that she held the lily across her chest, like the branch across the moon logo… and that she turned around still able to remember and then walked off jauntily into the Afterlife with a smile. At least for her, in her lifetime, a perfect ending.
Using my old convoluted formula for judging stories, I hesitantly give HDL 96 out of 100. This is an absurdly high score from me, especially for something which normally has so many elements I’m not interested in; for context, stories that most would rate “good” and “solid” I typically give out a score of ~15-30 out of 100. The point detractions were for plot elements mainly in the first half of episode 14 that were executed poorly (I even considered dropping it to 92 solely for episode 14, but the clever writing saved this), along with some plot and worldbuilding that doesn’t make sense if you think about it too long.
The main reasons for my high score are: 1) great tight writing, i.e. use of parallels, symbolism, etc and connecting them to the themes – as a writer, it’s intellectually orgasmic (the closest thing I can think of in clever, tight writing is Back to the Future, of all things, but that’s a 1.5 hour movie and not a 24 hour drama); 2) good characterization and a chaste but thoughtful and loving romance between a couple who trust and protect each other and communicate from the beginning; 3) good atmosphere, especially after the story focused less on the Exorcism/horror shenanigans and more on the romance and MW and CS’ issues.
Anyways, about CS being jealous, I didn’t think we’d get to see that given how angelic he is, but I’m glad we did – it there all this time, in front of our faces (not to mention the mirror image sort of parallels the cool vs uncool topic – MW sees CS as cool and uncool!). Even selfless people, like CS, will feel jealousy when love is involved. Especially someone who’s proud of his Harvard MBA. And it fits his calm, collected manner too. I love how CS being jealous of himself parallels MW being jealous of herself in the previous episode – as KJH = CS, he’s been jealous of himself for longer! The writer in me cannot help but sigh in admiration at how the parallel is deftly woven into many other aspects of the story. Yet while MW and CS feel jealousy that sometimes makes them act silly, it never causes long-term harm and hurt – this is an ideal mature couple.
Season 2 might happen as fanfics lol. For instance, some post-apocalyptic 2287 fanfic where badass MW and choir boy CS somehow meet at Hotel Blue Moon.
@GB The happiest ending was unlikely, so I was hoping perhaps the story’s logic would lead to MW and CS walking on the bridge to their next lives together (guess CS feeling chest pain was a red herring in regards to him potentially having poor health). The one we got worked well too. There is something touching about MW’s “death” – that someone knows their hour of doom, but takes that step to move on contentedly. Of the main characters, CS is left with the most bittersweet ending (Yuna at least chugged the pill) – but even happy memories and hope for the future is better than a lot of endings out there. Irl, he’d probably get over MW and find another girl, but in this fantasy logic, I see him as living a fulfilling life for MW’s sake and staying true to their promise to find each other in another lifetime.
I think it was very likely herbalist MG who told CS. Out of all the MGs, she isn’t the most interesting or quirky, but conversely she seems to be the most sensible and straightforward (I mean in episode 14 when the other MGs were trolling poor MW and literally driving her to suicide, herbalist MG calmly tells CS “yo dude, who cares about captain firefly, your girl’s in danger, she needs an intervention pronto so gtfo and save her”). Kind of makes sense as the MG of healing.
As a writer and former English Lit teacher, I have to give HDL an A+ (according to my Canadian university where you just need over 90). It had its flaws but they were so outweighed by originality, plot integrity, and charismatic performances by mains and sides alike, that I would be remiss to take off more than a few percentage points. (And honestly, if a student actually gave me a script like this they’d have got 100 for sheer ambition of scope).
My breakdown:
Story/Writing: 95
Directing: 98
Editing: 95
Cinematography, sets, etc: 100
Acting: IU 100, YJG 90, Side characters average of 95. (90 is still an A+, I just found him too stiff in the love scenes).
Finally, my thoughts on the ending and Existence and Time. So difficult for me to understand and grasp so almost impossible to convey what the reference means to me to you!
First, the painting where the tiger entered temporarily: this is our transition into Chang Sun’s own painting or alternate world of the happy hotel employees. This is not reincarnation, MW “comes early”, but she and the others are as real as the imaginary friend ‘ghost’.
Relationship to Heidigger: death is final to the existence and time of every human being. Man Wol ends once she hits the afterlife.
Chang Sun, however, is still alive, dreaming his future. Why is this important? Because according to Heidigger, his future is based on his experience of intellect, events, objects, people and feelings. His dreams, if grounded in his experience, have a high likelihood of coming true.
So what did the HS introduce to Chang Sun’s past experience that Heidigger had not dreamed of, so that perhaps death is not final?
1) Existence after death – reincarnation.
2) Soulmates
3) Recurring meetings with the same important people from past lives
4) Better lives for people who have expiated sins and left behind no grudges. A once-restricted scholar running, a desolated mother delighting in her child-substitute, a boy killed too young enjoying his youth to the full, and a betrayed lover finding her true love.
This is what Chang Sun worked for. It was his purpose. It’s what he learned.
SO if we choose to believe Heidigger, Man Wol is dead – the clock stopped, never to run again. And that was kind of a happy ending for her 1300 year self.
BUT, also if we choose to believe Heidigger, everything Chang Sun experienced – this is why he cannot allow his unique memories (past) and unique sight (present) to be deleted – dictates his future as represented by his dream. So his future, because his past does include all the things numbered above (which he would not have known without that potion), will be a variation on his dream.
Moreover, we’ve experienced all these things with him. So have the Hong Sisters. Based on my experience then of this story, there really is no doubt in my mind that Chang Sun’s future with all his friends and MW will look something like his dream, and that he fulfilled his hero’s journey admirably. (Got teary again).
Oooh. I like that POV, @barbrey. Will get back to you on this.
I’m still stuck halfway through the drama. Y’all have been telling me it’s a teary episode so I’ve been saving Manwol’s goodbye till I’m safely back home in the privacy of the bedroom, study, bathroom or my walk-in closet where I can cry in peace. 😂😭😂 lol. I don’t have a man-cave like my husband.
Dear @GrowingBeautifully, @Barbrey, @Packmule3 and @TheScholarGentry , using the Simón Bolívar University (Caracas – Venezuela) score:
5 : 85/100 to 100/100
4 : 70/100 to 84/100
3 : 50/100 to 69/100
2 and 1
This Drama gets a 5 (with a solid 93). It is very tight in its logic, and the main plot gets a lot of meta comment, exposure and resonance in the “ghost of the week” sections.
It is also very well written with characters that at the end of the day are still the people that started in episode 1 but changed in their perspective. We are also witnesses of the changes in them. So character-wise they are fleshed out. Hong Sisters also were able to make me care about the Hotel del Luna bunch.
They made us guess where they were heading, and they made us THINK. Personally this Forum made me appreciate this gem even more. Hope to see something special like this soon with all of you.
My personal gripe was with Captain BrightButt. He was written as a moron instead of a tragic character, but I am rumiating my displeasure at how his story in the past developed. Even if I facepalmed with him, I would let it pass.
It also had that unusual magic quality that made 1:30:00 episodes a breeze to watch or even rewatch. Believe me, there are few movies able to do that.
Loved UI’s Man-Wol. She was able to sell me her character through her delivery and her face expressions. At moments I felt I could fall in love with her Man-Wol (even with all her quirks!!!). The actor that gave life to Chang-Sung was very good, but since he played the straight man to Man-Wol’s crazyness I guess he was written like that.
I’ll give it an A.
Btw, here’s a translation of the Hong Sisters interview about the ending, the actors, the lack of intimacy, etc.
https://twitter.com/melloviciousiu/status/1168529735820791811
Read the entire thread because the translator has been translating question by question. Some added later.
Thanks, @sph_7! 👍
@sph-7, thanks for posting that link! Did anything surprise you? I don’t think it did for me. I’m really glad they made note of how YGJ seemed to get older the past few episodes. He truly seemed more comfortable, accomplished and yes, older. I’m not sure if he grew into the role or that was done purposefully; either way it was effective.
A+ for the discussion here. For me, The experience the drama would not have been close to what it became with all of you. Thank you!
Thanks once again to all of you for your intriguing thoughts and generous sharings. I hope we have many more opportunities to share our ideas and opinions about other shows. It has indeed been a far more enjoyable and thought-provoking ride for me through this series because we rode together. Catch you all again! 😄
I just realized something to expand on your point about the Captain, and how he compared to CS. This is also to expand further on the story’s influences from East Asian and Buddhist mythology/cosmology I discussed before.
When it comes to CS, because of his noble and pure heart, he is willing to endure immense suffering to ensure MW does not accumulate anymore negative karma after what is essentially 1300 years of karmic purification through her work at the hotel of helping ghosts heal. For example, the end of episode 8 when he takes on the curse intended for Mira could be interpreted as him deciding to literally take MW’s negative karma and suffering for himself to ensure she can continue with her karmic purification, which bears similarities to a class of enlightened beings in some forms of Buddhism (particularly East Asian Buddhism) called the Boddhisattva, who, though they have what it takes to become enlightened, delay their enlightenment to help others, even if it means taking on others’ sufferings and bad karma. And of course throughout the series he’s encouraging her to do good things to add more good karma to her karma bank account, or at least helping alleviate her suffering – literally from the first time they met 1300 years ago as kids.
So how does relate to the Captain? Well, unlike CS, the Captain – whether through stupidity, ineptness, lust, confusion, or genuine assholery – caused MW to accumulate bad karma through his actions. From the story’s perspective, CM is the one with even worse karma because on top of causing an otherwise innocent and not evil girl (relatively) to do lots of bad things, he also got bad karma himself for causing the deaths of a lot of people on all sides that could’ve been avoided.
TLDR: From a Buddhist POV, the Captain is a douche and CS is a saint, and I think what is implied with the “worse sin than MW” is being the one who caused so much suffering to even begin.
sph_7: Thanks for the links! The part about them choosing not to have happy bgm during CS and MW dates or other romantic moments is really sad but makes sense – even the people making the show felt bad for them!
There is a cruel question I have to ask in regards of DramaBeans. After the big slump they experienced last year it has been not the same. They say they are recapping 8 dramas, but Arthdal Chronicles is in hiatus, they have just posted (today Tuesday 9/3/2019) Hotel del Luna Episode 15 recap, a show that aired on Saturday, and before that they had a post that endured 4 full days before this one came about.
What is happening to them?. Are there ways for them to recover?. I used to love the site, now it feels like the old friend you don’t want to let go since you have lots of good memories with him/her.
Where can I find good recaps?, are there other blogs similar to this one?. Can you direct me to other sites doing what DramaBeans used to do?.
Thanks in advance!!!
@FGB4877, you may want to check this out. 🙂
https://www.dramamilk.com/tag/hotel-de-luna/
@FGB4877 I’ve found a few recap sites, like thereviewgeek.com and dramaobsess.com, but they’re mostly summarizing the main plot points rather than in-depth analysis, though it’s still nice if you want to refresh your memory.
For more detailed discussion there are some reddit threads on /r/Kdrama but that’s it. Otherwise, I’m surprised at how little good discussion there is. There is Soompi forums, but looking through the Soompi thread about HDL I can understand why some of this blog’s commentors are frustrated with it – it seems after the series finale, for every thoughtful comment there are 10-20 comments about “muh oppa” or “MW and CS should have had hot steamy monkey sex, HS ruined the story”. The latter especially makes me feel, well, super bitchy, because as I’ve mentioned in other posts here, I strongly admire and respect the chaste portrayal of MW and CS as an integral element of their mature love – it’s refreshing and makes their romance all the more bittersweet and poignant.
@the scholar-gentry, on CM “whether through stupidity, ineptness, lust, confusion, or genuine assholery”, I’d pick the first: STUPIDITY
Searched for its exact meaning in google and wow, found my exact impressions of him. lol
STUPIDITY
1. behavior that shows a lack of good sense or judgment
2. the quality of being stupid or unintelligent
synonyms: lack of intelligence, foolishness, denseness, ignorance, mindlessness, dull-wittiness, dullness, slow-wittiness, doltishness, slowness, gullibility, naivety, dimness, dumbness, dopiness, irrationality, absurdity, ludicrousness, ridiculousness, fatuousness, fatuity, asininity, pointlessness, meaninglessness, futility, ineptitude, fruitlessness, informal craziness, asininity, injudiciousness, idiocy
@Barbrey, I was and wasn’t surprised by the interview.
For the ending, I posted my interpretation on Reddit before the interview was published and it was just what the writers wanted us to see.
I was surprised by how little the writers contributed to the emotional development of Chan Sung and how much effort YJG put into shaping this perfect make lead. For more details you can read my DB wall. I can’t post pictures here. http://www.dramabeans.com/members/geliguolu/activity/866187/
*male lead
I agree that it’s really frustrating when you are looking for meaningful discussions and most of what you read are oppa, oppa, oppa and how bad YJG’s acting was just because he looked so awkward and stiff. I felt a little sorry for them that they didn’t get him. It’s sad that they missed to enjoy what we fully enjoyed. I even stumbled on a comment that says this drama is so ordinary and over hyped. I know there’s not a single drama that everyone would appreciate but I smirked when she added “What I want is a drama that will leave me thinking and challenge my intellect.” Now I’m laughing loudly while typing this because I’m getting curious how she watched the whole drama without exercising her brain muscles. 😁😅😜
@The Scholar-Gentry
I also made the connection of Chan Sung being a person on the path to become a bodhisattva (and someone criticize me for it😏 because she’s on Captain’s ship). Since the beginning I have seen Man Wol as Sun Wu Kung (did she have 72 changes of clothes?) and Chan Sung as Tang Samzang. After reading the interviews I think the HS actually had a monk in mind when they wrote Chan Sung.
@Storm Moon On the stupidity thing, this just made me realize something. Previously I talked about the hell and hungry ghost realms that are present in most varieties of Buddhist cosmology – the third “lower realm” is that of animals. Hell realm is symbolizes anger/hate, the hungry ghost realm symbolizes greed/desire, and the animal realm symbolizes… yup, ignorance and stupidity! No wonder the Captain got stuck being a firefly for so long. Bit of a stretch, but it fits I think.
I can tolerate the oppa thing, perhaps as I’m a straight guy so it just comes off as funny, but not understanding how MW and CS characters and relationship work irks me, since to me it shows a shallow understanding of sex and love, and now it brings to mind issues of masculinity that anger me so I’ll stop myself. I am impressed with both IU and YJG’s acting, and together they worked so well as per sph_7’s post. For YJG to bring all that pathos in a subdued way to the role of the calm, collected, straight man to IU’s wilder character is no easy feat. Personally, I love male leads like his – to me they embody a healthy masculinity – so this has been a real treat.
@sph_7 CS and MW inspired by Tang Sanzang and Sun Wu Kong makes sense, and that’s a clever observation. Well, a Sanzang and Sun Wu Kong with a romantic relationship lol. Sun Wu Kong as a being trapped for a long time, Sanzang as the one to help them purify themselves and become good. I can see a monk in mind for CS – obviiously not so much the religious and celibate aspect (CS and MW are romantic, not platonic at the end of the day), but the purity of heart and willingness to sacrifice for good is there.
“For YJG to bring all that pathos in a subdued way to the role of the calm, collected, straight man to IU’s wilder character is no easy feat. Personally, I love male leads like his – to me they embody a healthy masculinity – so this has been a real treat.”
Yes. His was the harder role to play. It’s actually much much harder to emote when subdued and convey pathos to the audience. IU had the flamboyant character (and easier) to play with lots to work with (and her wardrobe changes to embellish her extravagance and allusions to icons like Audrey at Tiffany’s). So whilst many thought him boring and lacklustre compared to IU, personally I thought he outshone IU. He acted in such a way to make her shine. Much like a pa de deux in ballet, the male partner dances in such a way that brings out the best in his partner. His understated portrayal was his strength.
Spelling error “pas de deux”. 😂. It’s very hard to play ordinary. He did it with aplomb and grace. I dearly hope this sends the right messages to boys wanting to become men of character. CS is the one to put on a pedestal and aspire to become. Not Captain Twinklebutt.
@nrllee The difficulty for IU I think came from making sure her character wasn’t so over the top it became ridiculous, and making sure her mood swings and the like flowed naturally. A different kind of challenge to the more internal challenge YCJ had. And of course to play off each other’s characters, which is another challenge in itself.
The pas de deux is a good analogy for both the acting of IU and YJG, *and* the relationship dynamic between MW and CS in the story, in my opinion. My preferred analogy for this kind of ideal relationship is that of a good king and a strong but loyal minister – the king is the public face and rules capably, while the minister is loyal (but not a yes man) and provides wise support – one cannot do well without the other. External and internal. Yin and yang.
And yes, I think CS is a great role model, especially compared to the usual drama lead who’s the hot brooding jerk with a heart of gold who takes hot brooding showers. CS and MW’s relationship is generally a good model too at least compared to the usual drama couples – solely being a hot oppa (or a pretty girl like IU) can only take you so far, at some point you’ll need your devotion and trust and communication too.
(Actually, I’m amused there was no hot brooding shower scene for CS. Are they so cliche now they’re not in vogue anymore?)
@nrllee, I know your hero type. Kyungsoo Do, Siwan and YJG’s Chansung.
You like men who can be described as “still water runs deep.”
I like IU’s acting. For the most part, she’s spot on. She has many different facial expressions so she’s able to emote her character’s feelings well.
I like YJG’s acting, too, because he conveys the right emotion (or at least I get what he’s trying to communicate) with a minimum of fuss. He doesn’t have to exaggerate or overdo the facial and body mannerism to get it done right.
I’m glad he didn’t have to do a lot of aegyo or shower scenes. lol.
I wrote in one of my pet peeves blogs that many “shower scenes” don’t enhance the plot. They’re written as fan service, to titillate the girls/boys.
I understand fangirls like those but often they’re just gratuitous and cheap. It atells me that the actor isn’t that well-known (not an A-lister!) . He can’t yet leverage his acting or popularity without nudity.
Really. If I were the actor, I’d find it insulting that a shower scene had to be stipulated in my contract. That means the director don’t expect the audience to be impressed with the story and/or my acting and that my body is required to “sell” the show.
@packmule3 I think my ideal masculinity is a benevolent form of “still water runs deep” as well – in my writing at least my male leads try to gravitate towards that. Anyways, after typing that comment i searched your blog to see if there was a post on one of the greatest Kdrama cliches, and I wasn’t disappointed. I agree with your assessment on them. That’s the nature of fanservice for better or worse. Since I’m not the intended audience for shower scenes I find them hilarious but I digress.
And agreed on both counts for both actors – IU really brought out a wide variety of expressions and made them all seem consistent with her character, and YJG used his relative minimalism well. So much, in fact, that it made scenes where he wasn’t restrained stand out too. The most famous one is the crying scene at the end of ep 14, but I liked in Ep 15 when he runs to the returned MW and wildly hugs her – it’s not his usual hug to calm her, in a way he was calming himself.
“@nrllee, I know your hero type. Kyungsoo Do, Siwan and YJG’s Chansung.
You like men who can be described as “still water runs deep.””
Busted me big time. 😂😍
PS I have recently added Ji JinHee to my favourite actors list and yes he falls into the same “still waters runs deep” category. Actually for them to get on that list they actually have to be men of character in real life. Otherwise they just stay as actors to watch but not to fan girl. So far Do KyungSoo, Yoon ShiYoon and Ji JinHee are on my fan girl list. SiWan nearly makes it but not quite in top tier.
I’ve never really understood the naked abs thing in showers or out. Don’t they have public beaches in Asia where the guys are shirtless? You can see dozens of guys with great bodies no different from kdrama stars. Or at least I can where I live.
Same with all the squee-ing over kisses – makes me think people have never had a relationship if they get so much vicarious enjoyment out of an awkward lip meet, which is what most kdrama kisses look like to me.
Don’t get me wrong, I love a slow burn romance, and there should be some acknowledgement of sexual attraction in any romance in my view, but the reason I like k dramas is because the emphasis is on romance not sex and I get a little oxytocin high with the delayed gratification!
We can all find porn elsewhere on the internet, but it’s hard to find 16 hour serial romances other than in Asian dramas that are also a number of steps up, in terms of plot and quality, from soap operas.
One of the reasons Scarlet Heart Ryeo got terrible backlash in its first episode was all the princes lounging around shirtless in their communal bathing pool. And the actors were self-conscious too! Over the top fan service and lots of people stopped watching from there. So the shirtless thing can be overkill.
I commented on @scholar-Gentry’s post about “nekkid” men showering last night but I don’t know where my comment went. 😂🤪 Did I censor myself?? Lol. Weird.
Anyway…
I like kisses. But I like them when they do something to move the story. And like you said, as an “acknowledgement” of emotional and mental connection. I don’t like kisses to be the driving force of the story.
Oh I like them too! But not driving force as you say. Still, HDL was missing the sexual tension of – I think Master’s Sun had it – a romance, and I respect that choice for the writers’ reasons but don’t really value it. They could easily have made the romance hotter without jeopardizing the story or situation, and therefore it just missed being the crack it could have been as well as an excellent production otherwise. I won’t be rewatching scenes for romance, though might for figuring out story puzzles or comedy.
@packmule3 Thinking about it from a guy’s PoV, I guess a shower scene would be like if HDL had IU running around in her underwear. That would be an insult to me (and the story) since I don’t need that to know she’s damn attractive and it’d make me feel voyeuristic. I am glad we had no YGJ manservice scene either, even if they could’ve stuffed a brooding shower scene, say, when MW was gone for a month and he was a sad puppy.
@nrlleee Do you have an internal database for good Chinese and Japanese actors with that “still water runs deep” feel as well? I need a good database of potential references for the characters in my own stories.
@barbrey HDL had awkward kisses but they made sense. The one in front of ghost 13 was awkward as MW needed CS to shut up and keep an eye on the ghost, and CS is probably thinking “my boss is hot but wtf is going on” (though it was a bit forced – couldn’t she just clamp his mouth a la Ep 1 with the blind ghost?). The second is intern and Bellhop, but it makes sense given they’re awkward teenagers experiencing first true love.
I do feel there’s some cultural reasons with the prevalence of awkward kisses and hot brooding showers in these dramas, but it’s not a topic I’m an expert on (nor are most people online anyways – too many discussions of Asian culture are filtered through Orientalist lens). Though love in Asia is often reserved in public, that is a gross generalization. My parents for example were/are openly affectionate with each other (in a way that reminds me a little of MW and CS more couple-y moments), and my grandfathers wrote eloquent love poems. Anyhow, I’m digressing again.
Out of curiosity, as a writer’s exercise of sorts, if you could change HDL’s story, how would you integrate more steamy elements without ruining the chaste nature of their relationship and characters? I can’t really think of for example another situation where they could’ve kissed that would make sense. I do think a few chaste cheek kisses and the like would’ve been okay and within their personalities and their chaste relationship.
@scholar-gentry Alas my favourites list currently is limited (and it’s very limited because I only stepped into the KDrama world late 2017) to KDrama only. I haven’t ventured into JDrama or CDrama. I only have so much “leisure time” at hand and I need some sleep to stay relatively sane. 😂. I don’t know how PM3 juggles so many balls. She must have a time machine or much more energy than I to spare. Or perhaps she is the Time Lord and flits between different universes at a whim.
@scholar-gentry, I was disappointed with the HS explanation as it was something I had considered as early as episode 4 – that he was treating her as a terminal patient – but discarded until taking it up again in episode 14.
Kisses aren’t needed to show passion/attraction. Attraction can be shown in body language throughout. Hyper-awareness of the other person’s presence or touch, staring at lips in anticipation or memory of a kiss, flicking lint off a lapel as a sign of possession, becoming awkward, blushing or unable to meet someone’s eyes because you’ve fantasized about them – there are cliche and not-so-cliche ways to heat up scenes between actors. Directors know how even if actors dont.
And the show was lacking. Whether it was the HS, the director or the actors, I don’t know – it seems to have been a decision by the writers – but for me it lacked meaningful romantic tension until the last few episodes and then that came as grief.
As I said, I respect the writers’ decision, it’s their story, but the love story felt forced from the beginning. How much more impactful it would have been for me if I truly believed in a developing love story of sexual attraction and a partnership in mind and emotion? I never really got that, it was more like poor Chang Sun fell in love overnight because those flowers were forced into his heart. His ‘I trust you’ and ‘I’ll protect you’ declarations in the early episodes seemed to come from nowhere.
Ah well, each to his own. The last episodes partially redeemed the love story for me, but by then I wasn’t watching this show for a believable love story and was thankful for whatever crumbs were thrown in my direction.
You know, it’s just occurred to me that the flowers in the heart really were what caused him to fall in love. Why? Because that’s a feature of other of their stories, variations on a love potion, enforced couple, and we actually see it done in this one with Mira and Yeon Woo in a different way. But also in Greatest Love, the male lead falls for the female lead because he hears her song on the radio as he goes for his heart operation and gets a Pavlov’s dog love reaction to her ever after, or in A Korean Odyssey, Monkey is cursed to love the girl with that thing. They fall in love eventually anyway but it’s not a natural beginning. This kind of thing always cheapens the romance, in my opinion. HS weren’t explicit about it in this one but I did wonder about it when we found out about that flower insertion, and it explains a lot.
@The Scholar-gentry @Barbrey
While the rather lackluster romance didn’t actually bother me, I did wonder why the simple expedient of just having him or her at least want to hold hands sometimes, or want to snuggle a little after those conversations and silences. They spent so many scenes together, working in cooperation, but they never really came together to congratulate each other. No pat on the back or high 5 even.
Well it could be argued that MW always was a cold stick with never a warm word for her staff, and CS was pretty formal and reserved throughout. However, as an ‘in-love’ couple, that should have melted away.
I do agree about the lack of romantic tension, because before we knew it, MW was acting jealous, and CS was just going along with her without acknowledging it one way or another. I did of course expect the couple who spends so much time together to ultimately fall in love, but we didn’t see it happening, only that it already happened before anyone was aware (almost like Bartender Kim!)
@Barbrey if it is as you say that the love was forced, then it’s such a pity for the romance. (Maybe we’d have been happier if they’d just become best chums!) I keep coming back to saying that matters were ‘engineered’. It may have been a coincidence that CS and his dad happened upon MW as a child before she died, but after that, MG’s engineering determined that CS’s future self would meet MW and that he would dream of her past and become connected to her in a deeper way. I believe they’d still have fallen in love as they were so compatible, however show did not deliver those scenes.
It’s interesting what you say about the habit of the HS to insert ‘love potions’. I’m not sure that the purple flowers were meant to be exactly that, but as they were meant to make him dream of the moon … that comes pretty close!
What are we watching tomorrow?
Now that HdL is done, what’s to watch tomorrow? I’m not into that Song Joonki show.
@packmule3 I’m thinking of waiting for Melt Me rather than starting another show right away. I’ve got to get one project out of the way (finishing after 23 Sept!) before I shall feel free enough to start a show. HDL’s finishing when it did was actually a relief!!!
Nothing grabs me except I’m still watching with great pleasure the Youth slice-of-life A Moment at Eighteen. Now here’s just the right amount of romantic tension that’s missing from HDL, and the awkwardness is fine because they’re kids. Even the adults are awkward, but they’re cutely so. Characters have become a little layered although they are mostly uncomplicated, at least from the outside. Best part is that roles are well acted, even by those who are not veterans. There’s nothing else I can recommend. Catch ya again!
I do think this couple was “engineered” as you say, GB. What I’m not sure if is whether there was ever any red string between them. Was it the flowers as substitute?
I wish I could remember Gummiho but it’s a blank. I didn’t like it much. But I think it might have had a love potion variation too.
@scholar-gentry, you might want to watch another Hong Sister’s production since you’ve seen so few dramas. I loved a couple, liked a few, loathed a few, and dropped a few. Here are my recommendations from best to worst:
1. Master’s Sun – the best, most consistent production, most like HDL, great plot and acting, fun ghost of the week as well as bigger arc, good romance, weird near end but happy.
2. The Greatest Love – very fun, good plot, good comedy. I HATED the alpha male lead at first, Dokko Jin, loved him by the end – great performance by Cha Seung Won.
3. My Girl – fantastic first half, bogs down in second.
4. Delightful Girl – really old but I tend to like the older ones. The chemistry between leads is stellar but nothing happens till the end. Drags in second half.
5. You’re Beautiful – this was one of the best in terms of production, and would be #1 for a lot of people but the girl was too stupid to be believed so it never won me over.
6. My Girlfriend is a Gumiho – kind of like You’re Beautiful, this would be #1 for some people. It was just okay for me. I remember thinking it okay but remember no details.
7.Hong Gil Dong – inconsistent mess but I liked the first half a lot, the second half gets sad and somewhat draggy as if a different show.
8. A Korean Odyssey – boring despite great actors. This needed the love story, which fell flat.
9. Fantasy Couple – has its moments but overall not great. Dropped it.
10. Warm and Cozy – boring. Dropped it.
11. Big. Bad. Dropped it.
@barbrey
I can better see where you’re coming from, then, as there was a forced element to the romance (not in the sense the writers were pushing to get them together, but in the sense that if it wasn’t for the story they might not have hooked up). In early episodes, as GB said, I chalked it up to MW being a cold stick and CS being formal and reserved. At the risk of getting personal, I can see CS’ falling in love as believable as it reminded me of myself once – my (female) friends were bewildered at what happened to me out of the blue given I come off as formal and reserved. But though I *felt* awkward, I didn’t *appear* awkward – my friends only knew how crazy heads over heels I was when I openly talked to them (and when drunk). In short, from what I know, irl awkward is often seen as being cold and reserved. I do think this is also a consequence of CS being a secondary character to MW, and YJG needing to emote less per his character.
I interpreted the flower, dreams, and so on as a symbolic take on CS and MW getting to know each other, which normally would be done through mundane conversation and other interactions. A love potion plot device is easier for me to accept for cultural reasons if I see it as symbolic of a longtime karmic connection between two characters (my mother always said stuff like “lol that couple is nothing alike yet they are in love, must be their karma”). At the least, I prefer it over love at first sight.
I think the middle episodes ~5-10, in between the initial spark of interest and becoming a proper couple, was when the love story was weakest. I agree we could’ve had more awkward cute moments, but if there was a problem, then I think it’s that the show tried to balance three main stories: 1) exorcist shenanigans, 2) MW and her grudge, and 3) MW and CS tragic love story. In the middle part (1) and (2) took precedence over (3). (1) took a backseat around episode 11-12, with (2) and to a lesser extent (3) being the focus until halfway in ep 14 when the focus finally settles on (3).
I will admit that episodes 12, 13, and 15 were my favorites mainly because the focus started to go away from (1) and (2) and more on (3). Those episodes alone sold me on the romance, and are probably the only reason why this is probably my second favorite love story in any medium I’ve come across in the last decade. ie for me it’s not so much that the first half of the romance was lacking and the second half saved it as for you, but it was that the first half was okay and the second half elevated it. I guess it checks off my preferences at the end of the day, and to each their own as you say.
Thanks for the list anyways! I’ll have to take a look through it carefully. I’m extremely picky when it comes to any medium and genre, heh. I want the fluffiest, most slice of life, but not vapid story. Drama, tension, and conflict annoy me irrationally. Probably why I liked the later episodes in HDL, because it could focus on MW and CS being cute.
I’m appreciating this discussion either way, given I’ve resigned to writing shitty love stories as I mentioned in the other post so it’s good food for thought. It’s much better than “muh OPPPAA chemistry manservice” discussion elsewhere (even though ironically this is basically the same topic and issue, just less “MUH OPPA”).
So have to ask: what’s your first favorite?
There’s a term for potion type – unnatural and forced- romances if I remember correctly. The oldest one I remember is Tristan and Isolde. Anyway, the trope is called the love-death. Apropo, no?
Yeah, it’s funny but I had no issue with Yeon Woo and Mira’s enforced connection, I could definitely see that as karmic, but not so with the flowers and CS, which shouldn’t be different but are somehow.
@barbrey
My favorite is one of Pu Songling’s short stories I mentioned on the other post about dreams = reality. It’s about two lit nerds – one a lonely handsome young scholar, the other a lonely cute ghost girl. Like in HDL, they have a chaste relationship which contrasts with some of Pu Songling’s other love stories which read like 17th century Chinese Tinder hookups with ghosts and fox spirits (though they do consummate it in the end so she can become alive*). A line from the story says, and I paraphrase, “they never had sex but were more intimate than many married couples.” I liked its thoughtful simplicity. (I have a feeling by now my tastes are obvious lol)
I had a similar chat with someone on Reddit about Mira and YW’s reincarnation romance vs MW and CS. We agreed the former connection was more shown and explicit, while the latter was handled briefly. The other guy/girl liked the former for those reasons, while I preferred the latter for those same reasons. For me as it is such a common trope, especially the reincarnation sub-trope in Asian culture, I preferred the ambiguous, vague nature of the latter, while with the former if it weren’t for MG3 as a personification of deus ex machina it would’ve come off as heavy handed to me. But you are right, they’re similar. Different strokes for different folks I guess.
*Amusingly, if HDL were even closer to some of these older Asian stories, MW might only need a steamy lovemaking session with CS to become alive again. The logic is that the dead spirit absorbs the life essence of the living person. It does come with consequences in many depictions such as the living person dying or at least getting super ill. (In the story above, the initial reason why they are chaste is the girl doesn’t want to kill her bf. Once she’s been in the living world long enough, they can do it without killing him, though he still becomes deathly ill for a while.)
That’s the same as with a vampire or succubus/incubus sucking blood or energy. I don’t think you’re that far off, MW is definitely of a type,the immortal undead. The HS have just chosen not to emphasize that aspect of her.
I was actually pretty meh on this even though I enjoyed it a lot. The execution was very very well done. But everything felt kinda textbook. It’s like the Hong sisters were thinking “we need to put everything that can make a hit show into this one drama” lol there was nothing wrong. From OST, to cast, elements, plot, scripts, costumes, directions, etc. everything was so calculated to not offend anyone to a point that’s a little bit boring. I was able to predict almost any of their actions and scripts. They are saying exactly the right lines so you can only fall in love with these characters to a point that I felt disconnected. As if I am very aware that I am “watching” a “drama”.
It was a good show, but sometimes I might rather watch a drama with more false but willing to risk and surprise the viewers than a textbook good student show lol Like arthdal chronicles. It is such an amazingly written and directed drama.