Izumi Opialda asked:
Hi packmule3,
Do you think Shin Jae is somewhat related to Lee Lim? I have observed that Lee Lim cares for Shin Jae and one of the men of Lee Lim told him that he couldn’t kill him because he is supposed to stay alive. Do you think they are related somehow?
In my previous post on King Arthur, like here, I wrote that:
In Ep 9 at 59:03, when Lee Lim’s henchman suggested killing both ShinJae and TaeEul, and burying them elsewhere, Lee Lim flew into a rage and threw him toward a burning barrel. Lee Lim then said that Shinjae was “the wrong move I made.”
His statement here can be interpreted in two ways.
One, it can mean that he regretted his temporary weakness. He helped a child he found crying in the street, then transported him to Korea and gave him a new family OUT OF THE GOODNESS OF HIS HEART. He regretted that moment of kindness.
Two, it can mean that he fathered a child, Shinjae.
Judging from LL’s unrestrained fury when he threw his henchman, I think ShinJae meant more to him than just a strange kid he casually encountered for the first time on the street. And a “wrong move” could be interpreted as a sexual “indiscretion” which resulted in an illegitimate child. Just like Lee Lim was an illegitimate child, history can be repeating itself.
That’s my wild guess here, and as wild guesses go, I’m basing this on my intuition more than actual proof so take it or leave. 🙂
However, I’m also aware that doppelgangers are supposed to have the same parents. And Lee Lim doesn’t look like the Shinjae’s dad here in the photograph. lol.
I also think that despite ShinJae being regarded as a “mistake,” he’s an essential person in the scheme of things, just like TaeEul’s essential answer to Lee Gon’s problem. In Episode 12, it was revealed that ShinJae’s real mother was involved in a conspiracy in the palace. Pictures of ShinJae were used as some sort of reward for his mother’s cooperation with Lee Lim’s plot.
It was fortunate that Lady Noh found out about it.
Noh: Did you find out? I hope it’s news that will put be back on my feet.
Guard: I checked the alibis of the court workers who changed their shifts. And there was nothing in particular about Lee GiYun, Yun Dogyeong and Kim Sua.
Noh: So, there was something about Park Sook Jin?
Guard: She only went out twice recently to a bookstore in the slums. And the days she left were when His Majesty’s schedule was empty. After she left the bookstore, she was burning this.
Having said that, I’m not 100% confident that Court Lady Noh realized that a) this was picture of Park Sook Jin showed her in a different appearance, and b) the location of this restaurant was in the parallel world where Lady Noh herself had come from.
Guard: (continuing) And the reason I’m reporting to you today is because the bookstore was where the traitor’s followers were staying.
Noh: What? How could somebody like her have worked here at the palace?
Guard: She was hired as a descendant of a national contributor, and her contributor was her grandfather, Park Dongu.
I’m guessing “national contributor” mean a political fundraiser or a donor. Since she posed herself as a granddaughter of an influential person, she wasn’t rigorously vetted.
Guard: But she was not his real granddaughter, Park SukJin.
Noh: What in the world are you talking about?
Guard: The real Park Sukjin is living in Pyongan Province under the name of Min Seonyeong. And there’s a record of Min Seonyeong having lost her son a long time ago.
Noh: What? Min Seonyeong?
Note: This should also tell us that the Park SukJin living in Pyongan is a part of the conspiracy, too, because she willingly traded her name and identity with someone else.
Without wasting time, Lady Noh went after the traitor.
Noh: I was so thorough when hiring workers in the palace, but it was you? What is your real name? Are you Min Seonyeong who lost a son a long time ago?
The name of ShinJae’s (fake) mother in Korea is Min Hwayeon.
Min HwaYeon.
Now, do you also see the time loop, Izumi Opialda?
Six days after Lee Lim killed his brother to steal the flute and escaped to Korea, he was already back in Corea, dressed up as this gentleman.
Why do I say it was six days?
ShinJae was abandoned by Min Seonyeong on the 6th day of the funeral. The news report on the tv said so.
This means that six days after Lee Lim killed off his brother and fled to Korea, he’d already returned to the Kingdom without fear of being caught. That didn’t sound possible to me.
Furthermore, six days after he fled his home, he “accidentally” rescued the abandoned ShinJae, and switched him with a Korean doppelganger who’d been sick for a long time.
Remember? That’s what Kang ShinJae’s mom said in Ep 8 at 31:00. He’d been sick for a year before regaining consciousness.
His (fake) mom: You were ill for a long time, you know. When you regained your consciousness, I felt like the whole world was mine.
Then his mom mentioned that he’d been sick for a year.
To me, it wasn’t possible for Lee Lim to find a home for Shinjae so quickly after his arrival in a new world. This scenario wasn’t possible in a LINEAR time. To me, a time loop would explain the logistics in which he was able to find a family for him.
Furthermore, a time loop (an ENDLESS time loop, mind you) would explain why Lee Lim had more than one umbrella. In Episode 3, Lee Lim left one umbrella with the Manpasikjeok flute at the fish market with Prime Minister Koo’s mother. Then, in the next scene, he was seen strolling around Busan in Corea with another umbrella.
Also, in Episode 12, Luna was seen passing an umbrella stand with 5 umbrellas that resemble the one he had.
In comparison, Lee Gon has only one riding crop….
Anyway, there are four more episodes left and let’s cross our fingers that the writer will successfully tie up all loose ends.
Moving on…
To me, ShinJae’s character is interesting because of his identity crisis.
He forced himself to RE-BOOT when he woke up in a strange bed with a strange mother crying over him. He knew this woman wasn’t his mother because she smelled nice. He told the psychologist so, in Episode 10 at 1:43.
SJ: Was it a really long dream? It was my first time seeing a house like that. A house with a gate and a sofa. And my mom smelled really nice. “I really hope Kang Hyeongmin is just a dream.” I thought to myself.
What he meant was his “new” mom didn’t smell like his “old” mom.
BTW, that’s Kang ShinJae’s name in Corea. Kang Hyeonmin.
I thought (and Lee Gon thought so too) that when TaeEul called him “Hyungnim” from the window, she was simply using an honorific.
From Episode 2, 1:01:28
The Netflix didn’t sub the word, but TaeEul actually called out, “Hyungnim! Eunsup is waiting. You go on ahead.…” I assumed that since they were colleagues, she didn’t call him “oppa” but “Hyungnim” which is an honorific a BOY would use to call an older brother.
And Lee Gon also thought TaeEul was using honorifics because in Episode 3, he asked her.
“What’s his name? You’re an only child but you call him your brother?” Lee Gon was asking TaeEul why she was using honorifics for “elder brother” when she was an only child.
Looking back now, this should have been alerted me to pay attention to his name because TaeEul mentioned his name, Kang SinJae, twice after that.
Once, when she were pretending to be a detective from that hit kdrama, “Signal.”
Then, later on in the same episode, she referred to him again as 2019 Kang Sinjae, lol.
When ShinJae told his psychiatrist about his dream, she insisted that he was dreaming.
Didn’t I tell you she was shady?
Psychiatrist: It could really be just a dream. Why do you think that Kang Hyeonmin is a memory?
SJ: I met someone. Someone from that world.
Psychiatrist: Did they say that they’re from a different world?
SJ: Do you think I’m delusional?
Psychiatrist: Well, the symptoms… enough about the nightmare. Tell me about the beautiful dream that you’ve been having.
I hope he didn’t his shrink that he was fantasizing about TaeEul because this kind of disclosure could be used against him when he encountered Luna.
Aside from his visit to this psychiatrist, his conversation with TaeEul at the cemetery showed how conflicted he was with his own self that he imagined killing himself should somebody asked him who he was. His lack of self-identity engendered self-hatred.
SJ: Do you know why I became a cop? I hoped I’d be holding a gun in my hand when someone asked me to identify myself. So that I can either shoot myself or him.
TE: What do you mean? Who are you, Hyungnim?
The Netflix didn’t sub it “hyungnim” so I’m pointing them out to you.
SJ: That day when Eunsup wasn’t the Eunsup, I called the name of the man who claimed he was a king.
He wasn’t supposed to know who Lee Gon was. However, it must have been a life-altering moment when he found out that he knew Lee Gon’s name. It confirmed that he wasn’t delusional. He’d been repressing his memories for the past 25 year. All along, he’d been forcing himself to live a lie. He was “misfit,” a square peg forced to fit in a round hole.
Remember how he practiced a smile in the mirror based on the child in the photo album? He was copying the smile of the real Shin Jae.
That’s why his personal motto was “perseverance.” He had no choice but to persevere in this alternate world he found himself in. This is what Lee Lim had done to him.
TE: His name? You mean, that unidentified man told you his name?
TaeEul knew that Lee Gon wouldn’t have given his name to ShinJae. He had resolutely withheld his from her to the point that he was jailed for refusing to identify himself.
SJ: No. I just called his name. The name that I remembered. Lee Gon. And I was right. It’s because I was here…in this world with you. I was the reason why you couldn’t find me in the world. Me, Kang Sin-jae.
Meaning, his presence in Korea is the reason he didn’t exist in Corea. TaeEul couldn’t find him in the Kingdom of Corea because he’d been kidnapped from Corea and brought to the Republic of Korea. He’s a child abduction case because of Lee Lim.
SJ: (continuing) That is a fact. But as for who I really am…I’m not sure yet.
TE: (crying for him) You were here. Hyungnim, was here all along.
Note: she used “hyungnim” again as an honorific. He didn’t tell her that his name in that other world was Kang Hyeonmin.
SJ: But am I supposed to be here? Will you welcome me?
TE: (hugging him)
It’s Lee Lim’s fault that he was transported to Korea and placed in another family. His doppelganger in Korea must have been disposed off so he could take his place.
To me, TaeEul and Shinjae are “fated” to solve the murders that Lee Lim committed in both their world and Lee Gon’s world. That’s why the beginning scene show us TaeEul and Shinjae interrogating a bloodstained Lee Lim.
He was the one who mentioned a nephew who had to face this legend of the flute.
However, TaeEul and Shinjae have to be careful not to erase Lee Gon’s world from reality. You see, if TaeEul and Shinjae were to believe Lee Lim’s story that there’s this powerful flute Manpasikjeok who controlled two worlds, and that he killed his own brother and sacrificed so many men to acquire the magic flute, then Lee Lim couldn’t stand trial and be guilty by reason of insanity. His stories would be deemed delusions-of-grandeur by a madman.
However, if TaeEul and Shinjae were to reject Lee Lim’s crazy story and charge him with multiple crimes, then Lee Gon effectively disappears from reality because he, too, was part of Lee Lim’s delusion.
Do you see what I’m saying?
Fascinating, right? It’s just like “Signal.” lol. The female lead detective in “Signal” had been searching for her mentor, JinWoong, because he suddenly vanished as if in a dream. They were able to find each other and communicate through a walkie-talkie.
And it’s also similar to the Red King’s Dream of Alice. In the book “Through the Looking Glass,” Alice couldn’t tell if she dreamed the events or the Red King dreamed it for her. Anyway, let’s just file this under Crazy Packmule3’s Red King’s Dream theory. If it happens, it happens. If it doesn’t, then it doesn’t.
LG would have liked JY to kill LL, he said. I think that he would also prefer to have LL back as a captive in KoC so LL would be punished under KoC law for treason. The RoK wouldn’t be part of the prosecution, but how to accomplish that, and is it too late for non-involvement because of the number of crimes committed in the RoK?
Yes, it’s like a chess game with one king blocked by a queen and bishop or knight, but it’s the other side’s turn.
Can you please post your reviews and feedbacks on episode 11 and 12 please? I’ve been visiting this blog these days and I just loved all your theories and I also enjoy reading through the comments you guys have the best mind!
Okayy. So I’m one of those people to whom these aspects of the drama aren’t clear no matter how hard I try. But I keep up with it only because of BoD and you know, have people to talk to 🥰 so please bear with me while I ask the following stupid questions.
1) @Fern
“Yes, it’s like a chess game with one king blocked by a queen and bishop or knight, but it’s the other side’s turn.”
Ahm. I found this a very intriguing thing to say and in spite of being a level “non-terrible” player at chess, couldn’t relate it to the drama 🙈
2) I am unable to fathom the time line of the interrogation of LL. Maybe you explained this before already @pm3 in which case I’d request you to direct me to the article because clearly I read it but didn’t understand.
That’s why this drama frustrates me. As noted by another person in the comments before (probably @tomato101) I’m not this dense as to be so confounded by an entire production that I don’t get the head or tail of it.
And the most important question. What is the implication here ?
Is LG a figment of imagination? That he will disappear in a poof with a disbelief? Or
Is Tae Eul a figment of imagination?
Since the red king’s dream posts are now closed I’ve nowhere to refer !!
P.s. I apologise for these questions at such a late stage in the drama. 🙊
@Ahrisi, ref chess, I was only referring to LL (a king?) being blocked (arrested) by Tae-eul and Sin-Jae, but I have a feeling that LL will get out of it somehow by some strategy or move by another from his side. Apologies.
This is where this show and your awesome analysis are too smart for me. I’m a bit confused by the ending of your post here—I see the conundrum of how JTE and Sin-Jae couldn’t really arrest LL in the ROK without opening up all the drama of the parallel worlds and how this is problematic because it is really injustice in consideration of all the people he killed in ROK. But, what do you mean about LL and LG disappearing from reality? You don’t mean literally do you? Or did you mean it’s more something that has to do with having to send LL to the KOC to face his punishment and having then to once and for all close the portal between the two worlds, effectively erasing LG and LL from JTE’s reality in the ROK? Thanks for your awesome analysis once again!
Thank you so much @packmule for your amazing theories. I have not yet read all of your theories per episode, I think I should read all of it first in order for me to understand the possible questions. One last thing regarding the lady who looks like Lee Gon’s mother which is keep as a hostage of Lee Lim do you think she is really from Republic of Korea? Or a part of parralel universe? According to Lee Gon her mother is a scientist but she died after she gave birth to him. We don’t have any backstory of her mother but Lee Lim said to the lady who is the mother of young Lee Gon in ROK the reason she keeps her a hostage because she’s a goo bait to his nephew.
Good one @pkml3. (This reminds me that I should finish up on Ep 11 character info and send you that email.
@Welmaris, please note!
I’m afraid I might take too long to do the Ep 12 character info this week.)
LG’s move in leaving Jo Yeong in ROK was fortunate one. He might not yet have been far-sighted when he did it, but it put in place a situation that would be needed in the future.
LG originally wanted to arrest LL as he re-entered KOC … LG had said he was going back to KOC to guard the door. But he did not realise that he would not be able to try and convict LL in KOC, because LL was supposed to be dead and/or 70 years old. (However the thought comes to me that he could just declare LL a follower of the traitor and behead him.)
In ROK, as you, @pkml3 have pointed out, LL’s true statements will only put him in a mental health hospital, from which he would probably be able to engineer an escape. TE and SJ, being true blue police detectives, would have to find evidence of LL’s crimes or they would not be able to arrest him or have him executed according to ROK law.
The only way to ensure his evil ends is to have him killed, which TE and SJ can’t lawfully do. So JY is the knight or the Unbreakable Sword that can cut LL down. He is not a citizen of the ROK world and he only needs to obey his King. Therefore he will be doing something lawful by KOC law in killing LL. When he returns to KOC, he will be safe from ROK law.
@Arihsi Not all the Red King’s Dream posts are gone. There’s still this one: https://bitchesoverdramas.com/2020/05/13/the-red-kings-dream-part-3/
If we are speaking of how the paradoxes can be solved by making this whole thing a dream, the implications get complicated depending on what we mean by dream, and which paradox we are speaking of.
In ROK, LL’s testimony (which is the truth) will be considered delusions. LG will be considered non-existent (which is true because they already did a fingerprint and DNA search and he does not exist in ROK). So in ROK, LG is a figment of LL’s imagination, a dream. In KOC (assuming KOC is real) LG would continue to exist. However LL would probably get away without being punished as long as he stays on in ROK. So the paradox of how to punish LL without nullifying LG’s existence remains.
In the case where the paradox is rationalising how a person can go back in time to save himself and then grow up to be himself, the one who’d go back in time … that requires a dream to solve it. Then depending on who is dreaming, LG may exist or not exist. If he is the dreamer then he exists. It’s hard to say if he exists or not if it is other characters who are dreaming.
If LL could be held in KOC, LG’s best solution is to just kill LL the way he killed all those traitors, ie without trial. If he identified him as LL, then Prince Buyeong’s cover up, LL’s age and how he lived undetected would be investigated and the portal might be revealed. This might end up as a similar paradox,… if it went to trial, LG testifying that LL is the original traitor would cast doubt on LG’s sanity. He would not be able to give any evidence without revealing the existence of the portal.
@GB That’s why my stance has always been for LR to meet his demise in Korea.
If it is within Corean interest, then either LG or JY can finish him off there. More dramatic of course if LG kills him. Am certain this is the way the show will go.
But LR can also be killed by SJ or TE. Similar to what SJ did with the LR’s main minion/driver when they met in that alley, they can always come up with self-defense.
For a time I was toying with the idea that if LR is tried in Korea, then definitely he will be found to be insane. If the flute is no longer with him & the portal is closed, then he will no longer have support from his minions & will rot in the mental hospital for good (cue LR shouting from his cel about his “delusions”). That’s not such a bad ending for his arc.
@GB OH MY GOD. oh my god.
@GB thank you for taking the time out to write the explanation.
The idea of the dream is fantastic but I’d like to reference Harry Potter time travel once again.
Here, Harry saves himself and Sirius Black by time traveling (just a couple of hours though. Not 25 years. But concept is the same)
Like LG, at first when Harry sees his savior, he thinks it is his father because of the similarity of their appearance. However, it is Harry himself.
Regarding the paradox, Harry and Hermione are absent from the “present” when they are time traveling. (LG: it’s okay if I disappear because I’m traveling through the frozen moments in time) Thus, he’s not present at two places. He’s present only at that particular moment in time. He doesn’t so growing up again.
Do I make sense?
He doesn’t need to*
Let’s imagine a liner time. A the grown up LG loops back from A to B (child LG) saves him and returns back to A. He may have done this only once. We’re right now with the LG of time point B who hasn’t crossed point A yet. And doesn’t know he saved himself (like Harry).
Once the LG reaches time point A and goes to B, he’ll be missing from the “present” until his return to that time. He doesn’t need to keep looping.
@packmule: Mind-blown as always, by your post! But I am very confused on one point, am wondering if you could clarify: the scenes where LL is being interrogated by TE & SJ at the start of Episode 1. From how this discussion is going, it is assumed that LL is in ROK & being held by the police. However, I thought that this interrogation is actually taking place in KOC, as the KOC logo is shown clearly in the case notes? How did TE & SJ end up being KOC police? Argh.
I should have mentioned the logo on the case files, sorry. I was in a hurry.
I think TE and SJ are working for the Republic of Korea. They don’t have authority to question suspects in the Kingdom of Corea. However, they may have borrowed the case files from the police at Corea. Just like TE had shared (or smuggled) her case notes on Lee Sang Do and given them to Lee Gon.
That’s why on the “Top Secret” biodata of Lee Lim, there was an entry for Date of Death on …?? May 1995. Only records from Corea would reflect this info and other bio data on Lee Lim, as a matter of fact.
He didn’t exist in any public records in the Republic of Korea. 🙂
If the ones who suffer during the thunder are the ones whose dopplegangers were killed, should Shin Jae have a scar too? Or his doppleganger died from a natural death and it’s ok for him?
Yes! You got it Sayaris. 🙂
So there might be another “rule” or a more stringent rule that’s not so obvious for the lightning scars.
Perhaps natural death vs homicide for the doppelgangers?
In that case, if Luna just dies from cancer in 3 months (or whenever, should be shorter time period now) then TaeEul doesn’t get a scar.
I don’t know. Let’s wait and see.
Okay. I read the red king’s dream part 3. And I would like to say that it’s much more of a “beautiful solution” than the HP way. The HP way is just very linear and easy to understand. Not necessarily mesmerizing 🙂 Thank you for the link once again @GB. I was under the impression that the whole thing was password protected.
@Packmule3 and @GB, Shin-Jae seems to be a mistake since Lee Lim has always used the worst parts of his accolytes to draw them into his nefarious actions. Shin-Jae’s mom could have acepted her role as a mole in court for one of two reasons:
1.- She was a nobody and her son would have no opportunities in Corea, so she trusted Lee Lim her son for him to put him into a wealthy home.
2.- He kidnapped Shin-Jae to use him as a hostage, her ransom being her cooperation.
Anyway he exploited the love of a mother, very different to the usual mysantrophy, resentment or greed that runs rampant in his horde. That makes her hard to control in some circumstances, since love is a feeling he does not understand nor respect: for him it would be a liability, in his enemies it is a weakness to be exploited.
As PM Koo, she is playing to the “winner horse”. Those are two snakes recognizing and trying to use each other. She wants to be a queen at all cost, and for that she will fabricate a new king even if that means the ruin of her country.
I don’t think LR back at KOC on 6th day. Look at the differences of kid SJ when her mother left her in front of a store (kind of electronic store). He wore green coat. But, the color was different when LR stood in front of SJ.
@packmule ah yes, thank you, your explanation for the case file makes sense! Having the KOC logo right at the start really made me confused, I wonder if it was included as a smokescreen or unintentional!
@pkml3 and @Imels_ I went back to check and yes, Ep 9, timestamp 8:05 SJ was in a green jacket with a white stripe down the sleeves when his mother left him outside the shop with TVs airing the royal funeral. At timestamp 12:50 he’s in a plain grey jacket and sitting on steps that do not look like the steps of the shop.
This makes it seem that it was not the same day. Was poor SJ abandoned for more than 1 day and left sitting in the streets!!??
@packmule3, I am with you on Alice, the Chess Game, the Red King Dream,and the King Arthur parallel and I would like to throw down another TKEM literary juxtaposition: The great french film classic and mother of all contemporary time travel, chaos plot lines: “La Jette” directed by Chris Marker…Watch it; it is a gem…I would like to say none of theories actually contradict each other. They are,as mathematical theories are, an attempt toward a unified field theory, from a liberal arts perspective. I love this stuff. Also, just to get wild, I am throwing in “Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur’s Court”(time travel adventure, social commentary). Mark Twain traveled to Korea on his World Tour circa 1895, where he was very well received. I don’t remember where I learned this and I have tried to find the reference. Maybe it was all a dream.