As requested by Welmaris:
@Packmule, I’m asking please, pretty please for the creation of two separate threads:
…
2) Developmental and Psychological Disorders. A place to gather comments on autism, etc.
Disclaimer: The discussion and information contained in this thread are meant for the analysis and enjoyment of this kdrama. As far as I know, none of us here is a credentialed and/or licensed clinical psychologist. And even if there is a poster here claiming to be a clinical psychologist, her claim does not imply or establish a therapist-client privilege. So, if you’re experiencing, or you know of an individual experiencing the symptoms discussed here, you should consider a thorough mental health evaluation from an appropriate health care provider. The posts, comments and links on this thread are NOT to be used as a substitute for a professional diagnosis and recommendation.
Please consider this thread only as a “sharing” session or an open thread.
Phew. That’s a long disclaimer. 🙂
Heheheheh! No doctors in the house that I’m aware of!!! Thanks for the disclaimer @pkml3.
Well, that’s good advice. While reading ‘bitches’ can be somewhat therapeutic, as in when we just want to unwind, we are not in any way ‘formerly’ able to offer therapy for any disorders.
I like that our life experiences, anecdotes and armchair reading of disorders and what we think of them gets us into interesting discussion. what I’d really like, of course, is for a professional (or 2 or more of them) to come here and look at our discussions (in my case, I call it nonsense) and to give a us a few words on how near or far or possible (sensible) what we are saying is. 😆 😉
@packmule3-very glad that you putin the disclaimer. For anyone interested in reading about ASD,here are some recommendations for you-read anything by theblate Dr. Oliver Sachs like The Man Who Mistook His Wife For A Hat. He writes beautifulky about how human people with brain injuries, tourette’s syndrome, autism, e.g. are. There’s a story about the British Savant Artist, Stephen Birmingham that is wondrrful and fascinating. Also read Temple Grandin’s biography. Sheis a PhD, I think in Animal Huapbandry who is on the spectrum. Her story was done on Showtime and Claire Danes won an Emmy portraying her.Aninteresting note about Temple Grandin is that she is also a Star Trek afficianado. This is true about lots of people in thevspectrum. A great fiction, which also became a hig play, The Curious Incident of The Dog in the Night-Time by Mark Haddon is a fictional account of a person with autism. It takes you into his mindset. it has also bern made into a play. And for a comprehensive discussion about autism, Aspergers Syndrome and the spectrum in general, Neurotribes by Steve Silberman provides a comprehensive look at ASD. It’s very informative and there isvan interesting discussion about all of the “cures” promoted by some very disreputable people.Netflix is also going to have a documentary called Love on the Soectrum. Also for two wonderful novels by Helen Huoang, The Kiss Quotient and The Bride Test. The novels are romances and the author is on the spectrum. Her novels have great sex scenes but also give us insight andv delight into the Vjetnamese Amerucan community. They’re a pleasure to read and one can easily read them in one orvtwo sittings.There’sbkots written and performed. What I like about Sachs, Grandin, Haddon and Silberman is that you get a pretty rounded idea of how diverse the spectrum is. They also reinforce how fantastic Oh Jung Se’s performance is. I hope this helps you when viewing It’s Okay To Be Not Okay., And just remember that it’s a soectrum, a continuum with people ranging from the profoundly disabled to geniuses and people in between just like allmof humankind. It’s eady to stereotype and Ih Jung Se represents a subset of people in the spectrum who need caregivers. I won’t start on all the services they need and don’t get. And that is depicted very well in this drama(see the awful vocational school). Hope this helps the discussion. It’s a topic I’m passionate about.
Hmmmm….I think I went overboard with my disclaimer. lol. See what a killjoy I am at work?
Thanks @Old American Lady! That’s something similar to what we were saying (I did, I think weeks ago) that we’re all on a spectrum or more than one spectrum or other. Maybe we are on the ‘normalish’ part of the range, but we can veer off to more or less from time to time.
That could be the reason why we are debating and doubting if our characters are really diagnosed correctly. They have bits and pieces of the disorders and seem to display other aspects of other disorders as well, or suddenly are able to behave like they do not have those disorders.
What you say is right…. we need to get the idea or remember how “diverse the spectrum is”.
@pkml3, no, I don’t find it killjoy-ish, just good practical advice!!!
Thank you @Old American Lady for a comprehensive and accurate post. I saw a documentary on Temple Grandin and was fascinated by her understanding of her own condition and how she fit with other people in society.
I’m not sure that ST has that level of awareness in the “It’s Okay” series, but he certainly has a very strong sense of self, which appears clearly in the episode of him becoming contracted to MY, and his anger gives his brother a real shock in the scene where KT first rejects the contract.
We have an autistic person in my family, and we talk to each other a lot about our own reactions to her – not just about her behavior, but about our responses to it. It’s always a very enlightening thing to do.
One question: is KT legally his brother’s carer, and although ST is formally an adult, wouldn’t KT have some say in any contract negotiated with his brother?
@Judith Rock I am not a lawyer and I’m no expert on American or Korean law. It fact I know nothing about Korean law, except what I see in kdramas.However, I’m pretty sure that in the United States, having a disability, including autism, would not prevent ST from signing a legal contract. GT would have had to have the courts declare ST incompetent and be made his legal guardian. The American Disability Act protects employment rights, and the there are things in that contract that might appear exploitative to an outsider. However, ST seemed to willingly agree to the form of compensation and the required living conditions. U.S. states also have laws to protect the elderly or disabled from exploitation. S.Korea might have similar laws. If this was a real situation, GT would have been required to fulfill his mandatory military duties. (I’m assuming that ST would Have easily been given a medical exemption.) I wonder if Korea would give GT an exemption to care for his brother. If so, would that have required ST to be declared incompetent and GT to be assigned his guardian?
@Dlia, There’s a whole subset of laws in the United Statescovering disabled people and guardianship. For example, one of the ways these laws are used is for placement in group homes for disabled people who can no longer be cared for by elderly parents, There are also prvisions for special needs trusts which provide supplemental income for these people who rely onsocial security disability and medicare/medicaid assistance. i believe that inthe United States, each state has its own requirements. But what I do know is that there are attorneys who specialize in special needs cases.
While watching K Dramas, especially the medical shows, it appears to me that the medical pros are always asking for the guardians. I think there are provisions for legal guardianship. In all probability our younger broyher is oldrr brother’s guardian. (I generally don’t watch American police/legal series because of my former profession, but I’m fascinated by the Korean dramas because of the interesting differences-superficially, prosecutors wearing robes, and a kind ofvrestoratuve justice being done at the police orecinct at the arrest of a perpetrator when the complainantbis present where the ofgicer in charge seeksvto close the case with a settlement agreement.)
I’m going to do a little more research into Korean special needs law when I have some time. I am fascinated by the differences in our systems.
@Dlia and @Old American Lady, it also occurred to me that GT was probably exempted from military service in order to care for his brother. I know that some countries allow alternatives to military service such as community service, but don’t know if that’s true about S. Korea.
Also when GT and ST fled Seongjin City after the death of their mother, they were around 10-11 and 17-18 years old respectively. We know they met Jae Su when he was 16 (he mentioned that GT was a year younger than himself) and he has been with them since. But how did the brothers live before that? Besides shelter, food, and basic necessities, there is also schooling and healthcare to consider. Are there laws against child labor in SK? My best guess is that GT and ST were probably hiding in the countryside, and some kind elderly ahjumma or ahjussi let them live with her/him in exchange for farm work or something like that until GT was old enough to find a better paying job as a caregiver.
The United States and Australia (where I live) appear to have very similar systems regarding the care and well-being of disabled persons, under a federal policy. Australia also has a national disability pension which gives some slight financial security for people. It is similar to the general age pension.
I too am interested in the way low-level disagreements are put through a rather public reconciliation process in South Korea. I don’t think this happens in Australia. I’ll find out. Certainly, its a non-costly way of dealing with simple incidents, but surely it means a quite high level of professional training for the police officers.
@Dlia Conscription/national service was a messy business in Australia, but opposition to the Vietnam War caused its demise in 1972. However, I vaguely remember the disturbance it caused in my brother’s life who was unfortunate enough to be caught up in the last draft. I’m sure you’re right in thinking both ST and GT would probably be exempt from military duties, but what about Jae-soo?
@JudithRook @Dlia Not sure if the writer considered conscription for the boys. But I do believe if you’re officially diagnosed with a mental illness (depression and anxiety counts), you are exempt. Nobody wants someone who isn’t mentally sound to be holding a loaded weapon. A friend of mine whose son has a mental disability was exempted (but there are a fair number of hoops you have jump through to get out of it). Otherwise as you suggested, they will put you in community service for your enlistment years. I am not sure if the exemption applies to carers though? It probably will be a case by case.
Also not sure if the writer considered the legality of the contract signed between ST and MY. She’s really only ever written one other drama ie Jugglers and I didn’t watch that so I am unsure as to how meticulous she is.
Ref Korean draft, didn’t Eun-sub in TKEM get community service because he helped take care of his twin siblings and had to go home each night? Or maybe that was our speculation. 😉 I’m definitely no expert, but it seems like some K-idols do community service rather than active duty, but I don’t know if they have to prove some sort of need.
I mentioned this in the 7-8 thread, but I’m getting worried that ST will be left by himself if everyone gets paired up as speculation predicts. When he asked GT what he would have left if he gave away all his things to people who needed them, I felt so sad. I didn’t believe GT when he said ST would always have him and even less when GT seemed to leave the hospital to escape on a trip ‘right now’ with MY, but without ST. I feel like, intentionally or not, GT is letting ST down.
I wish ST could get his own forever ‘safety pin’ – not GT, but a love of his own. Or is that just unrealistic in terms of this drama?
@Fern I’m with you over poor Sang Tae. MY’s habit of thinking only of herself is unfortunately the main thing that has rubbed off on GT.
I wrote in my notes that if they had a waltz around the castle hall ala Disney’s Beauty and the Beast, besides GT with MY, the dance partners might be JR with CEO Lee Sang In, Jae Su with Seung Jae, even a truce between Dir Oh (who’s married to someone else) and Nurse Park. But Sang Tae had no partner. Now even the patients Jung Tae and Ah Reum can join the dance as partners, but I can’t find anyone other than a mother figure in Ju Ri’s mum for poor Sang Tae.
Yes, I felt sad for him when he said if he offered to others what they needed, then what about him. There was pathos when he muttered to himself that he too would like a friend, as JS went on and on about his one-sided friendship with GT.
I also felt bad that GT promised that ST would always have him but before the episode ended, GT is off without him. I’d like to think that he’d at least let ST know he’s taking a short break, rather than just disappear without a word.
We saw that ST was not too pleased that MY invited herself for lunch with the brothers, as it intruded upon their sibling time together, but he accepted her with good grace. It’s not likely that she will do the same for ST. For eg. she complained that ST was slow-witted when she wanted GT to put food on her spoon. ST would take it literally as MY not wanting to feed herself when she could, while MY wanted it to be a message to ST that GT was going to take care of her.
She believes she will always get what ever she wants and expects everyone to accept that without protest. However, as in the case of Mang Tae, ST will, I hope, stand up for his rights, and GT will find a good balance between the 2 characters most likely to tear him apart.
@Fern, It isnot unrealistic for ST to get his own safety pin. My money is on a platonic/business relationship for him with ace art director Yoo Seung-jae. Anyway, that’s what I’m hoping. I like her character and the actress and I hope they use her more. And given ST’s business sense(think about the dialogue), and his art talent,he might not be as impaired as we think. And finally, we’ve had dark fairy tales, but our dog story was both happy and sad-think day and night. So perhaps, we’re starting to be coming out of the dark. We’ve made it to episode 8-the mid-point of the drama. Just call me wishful thinking…
@Growing Beautifully, I was also thinking that ST, with his autism, has the most durable and unbreakable of leashes.
The hope I had of MY dealing well with him was dashed this week with her part in the fights and competition. From hero-worship, he now seems to have gone right off her. It’s interesting but healthy as MY won’t find him easy to manipulate from this point onward. He’s monitoring her pretty closely now. I wondered about her offer to play poker with him? Sneaky. She needs to mature.
It seems ST has a new champion with Nurse Park who offered take him to look at flowers. (I was wondering about the flower song they both liked, but couldn’t find anything.)
I noticed that the hospital staff and patients ignored MY again when she got punched by the visitor. I was mentally yelling for someone to get her a bag of frozen peas and possibly an X-ray. Only GT asked her if she was okay.
@Old American Lady, is it too unrealistic to hope for ST to have a non-platonic relationship? Yes, I agree that he might not be as impaired as we think. Remember, he described himself as ‘high-functioning’ and I think he has room to develop without GT beside him constantly. It might not be normal from many people’s points of view, but with the right person he and she could do all right I believe. It may be too much to ask of this particular drama, though.
@Fern, It is not unrealistic to ask for a non-platonic relationship for ST. Thevgood news is that there are lots of groups ou there that havecdating/social sitescfor oeople on the spectrum. In fact, Netflix is coming out with a documentary series, based in England, called Love on the Spectrum.Helen Hoang, thebVietnamese American romance author whonis herself, on the spectrum wrote two charming novels, ThemKiss Quotient and The Bride Price about romance on the spectrum. And I’m very close to someone who has had two long term relationships and a few short time ones. Ifvthecwriter so choosesit would be interesting to see how ST would deal with sensory issues(remember, hecdoesn’t like people touching his hair but the pillow fight with MY was fullmof what could be conscrued as sensory overload. And ST seemed to be doing fine. I would love to see ST become more independent (he rode the bus alone,and knows money and can read) and have a girlfriend/boyfriend who loves dinousaurs. ST is so loveable. There are lots of interesting combinations, including one with best friend chicken/pizza restaurant owner. And
Hmm. I see ST/GT as a package deal. I dislike the suggestion that ST is a “burden” to GT that needs to be removed in order for him to attain “happiness” (which is what I am reading in other forums). Whilst I understand the need for GT to develop his own sense of self outside of being a caretaker to ST, I don’t desire the complete severance of the bond so that he is “free” to do as he pleases (like what MY suggested). That somehow being fettered to ST is a hindrance to his “happiness” (whatever that means). He might not know it but ST is as essential to GT as GT is to ST? I hope GT keeps his promise to ST that even if he gives everything that he has away, he (ST) still has him (GT). MY’s “love” is obsessive. In reality it’s even more demanding (and high needs) than ST. It’s selfish and self centred, all about the individual. Me, myself, I. Also, whilst I love the fairy tale in the cursed castle, there’s a growing unease about the manipulative side of MY which makes me wary of her. Manipulating the man (Daniel) who was a fan so she could steal his pen? 🤔 Her moral compass is “what MY wants, MY gets”. I am not sure I will end up completely satisfied with how the writer will pen the ending.
@Fern, @nrllee, @Old American Lady
@nrllee Like you, I sense a danger too, with MY. She used Sang Tae in order to get Gang Tae into her clutches (so to speak). Now that she has GT, she can easily ignore ST, except that there is the contract she signed and she did promise GT that she’d be respectful (that fight though…) towards ST as far as possible.
I didn’t like the lack of calling MY out for all her bad behaviour and self-centredness, not to mention her repeated attempted manslaughter!! She has pushed 2 men off from the top of stairs, and tried to stab one. Aside from possibly causing death and serious injury, she has pulled 2 persons’ hair and with ST, she was pulling his shirt and trying to hit him. I was pleased that she had a bloody nose, which meant that ST hadn’t felt the need to be soft with his once idol.
Of course the reverse does have her also being hit by Ah Reum’s ex-husband and strangled by her father… during which time, no one came to her help.
I hope the whole relationship thing shakes down to her acceptance of family life, of the 3 of them together. If ST could meet a significant other, then only, there’d be a chance for just her and GT to be a two-some. I feel, though, that despite the stress that GT may feel in having to be there for his brother, he’d really miss ST no longer needing him.
The only way that the relationship with MY will be healthy, is when she starts to give what is good, without expecting anything in return. She has yet to know how to put others first or to have any other motive aside from self satisfaction.
We see that GT is taking steps to actualise some of his own needs, so he may be okay in himself, but when paired with MY, he will still be in a far from ideal situation, unless MY does her part to contribute to the relationship.
@nrllee and @Growing Beautifully, yes, MY is still as worrying as ever. And ST is a brother who will always need links with GT, even if he finds another relationship. He’s not an object that can be ‘offered’ when no longer useful. I hope that the drama will find a resolution for the three of them to support each other.
Ref MY’s repeated manslaughter/violence, what about the rock she had concealed behind her back after the latest attack? She let it drop only when GT came over to comfort her. Was it for the abusive ex? Or was if for anyone who might have ignored or blamed her in that circumstance.
Did any of you get the feeling that GT *might* not wish to come back to OK hospital? There was something about the way he said, ‘Bye’ to the other careworker and the patients that made me wonder.
@Old American Lady, I just saw a link about ‘Love on the Spectrum’. I’ll post it on the Autism thread.
Hahaha. I’m already there. More (or less?) coffee please.
@Fern yes to the rock ☹️. I agree with @GB, MY is unhinged. No one has called her out for all her unacceptable behaviors? I know some have even called her “badass”? As if her behavior was somehow laudable? 🤔. It is the complete antithesis to what we try to teach our children? To be kind? To be caring? To share? All these virtues are somehow tossed aside and even deemed laughable? Instead we have sweet JuRi who is ridiculed and called 2 faced and portrayed as the “antagonist”? And we have a heroine who is cold, calculating, murderous, manipulative? She’s a danger to society? It just doesn’t quite sit well with me.
I agree @nrlee, and the acceptable behaviour is deemed weak? I disagree with these comments. I don’t see the show itself is promoting that behaviour because there are other examples of kindness, caring and sharing. At least I hope the show isn’t doing that. One of my worries it that it will turn fluffy in the last episodes and lose its integrity.
@nrllee, sorry if I was unclear. I’m not disagreeing with your comments, but those of people who find MY’s behaviour ‘ inspiring or positive.
Yup @nrllee, that’s my feeling too. I’m not entirely comfortable with the way MY is given free reign and not being held accountable for her actions. I feel that GT is too mild and nice to her. And poor Ju Ri has the short end of the stick. There is nothing she’s done so far that justifies the negative reaction to her. I feel that the attitudes towards these 2 characters are topsy turvy. While I may like some things about MY and wish her well, I cannot condone her behaviour or consider her uniformly praiseworthy.
@Fern, thanks for the link. I went in and got sucked into another similar video and was in tears for the young people on the spectrum. After watching them, I must applaud Oh Jung Se for a wonderful convincing performance as a person with ASD.
I too would like to see if show can deliver faithfully the difficult truth, without diluting it with shallow fluffiness.
I believe I mentioned earlier, that of all shows to have the separation trope, this is the most appropriate one. GT and MY should ideally be more whole and able to contribute towards their long term relationship in a more balanced way, before they get together seriously. If a separation of a few years will help, then separating is a good idea. Being in a relationship where one party is in danger of being sucked dry by the other, is far from ideal.
To everyone with concerns about MY’s bad behavior, count me in. when she contracted with ST, the hairs went up on the back of my neck.I know that GT and MY look stunning together, but right now, she’s downright toxic. And GT’s memories of his childhood crush on her, only make the attraction scarier. And my superficial self would love to see a hot scene between these two gorgeous actors,but I also don’t want this to devolve to,Fatal Attraction (where a bunny,,not butterflies, was dismembered). So here’s hoping we can get some kindbof serious resolution, onevway ir another to this relationship-where there is no collateral damage, especially to ST.
Although I appreciate the actor doing a good job capturing many nuances of behavior exhibited by people on the autism spectrum, I am still uncomfortable with how the character of ST is written. I don’t buy that he can be high functioning and still so childlike. The visual hallucinations also throw me for a loop, as they’re atypical of the autism spectrum. The actor who portrays ST as a teen plays him as if he’s intellectually incapacitated. Adults I know who are on the high functioning end of the autism spectrum are often of very high intelligence when it comes to some areas of concrete knowledge, but struggle with social cues and some forms of abstract knowledge.
Because autism is a spectrum disorder, not all on the spectrum will have the same symptoms, issues, behaviors. One person on the spectrum whom I know well has been in a couple of long-term romantic relationships, but I wouldn’t characterize them as healthy ones. Issues included over-dependence and gullibility. This person self-identifies as asexual, due to discomfort with being touched; still, this person would like to be in a fulfilling emotional relationship. Currently this person is sharing a house with a married couple, both of whom provide friendship.
My interpretation is that ST has shown some inklings of romantic attraction to MY and jealousy of GT. I suspect that will become a story arc. Poor ST. I hope he is shown with depth of character, not just as a crazy second-male-lead trope.
We’ve been shown and told that MY, as a child, appeared emotionless. It seems to deal with her mother, for survival, she needed to be that way. But we are told in the first animated story that after the little girl from the castle was called a monster, “She was very angry at every living soul in the world. And she needed to take it out on someone.” When as children MY saw GT come to her gate with flowers, MY was smiling broadly as she ran down the stairs to meet him. Anger. Happiness. Those are strong emotions. It must have taken MY a tremendous amount of willpower to suppress those emotions while around her mother. I won’t say it is wholely healthy or good, but MY’s immature behavior makes me think she’s now living through emotional stages she didn’t get to experience as a child.
Hi@Welmaris. I think that ST is very much like many people on the spectrum. My son was in therapeutic nursery school, special Ed classes for three grades and special needs camps, day camps and recreation programs well into his teens. I knew many young people and adults who presented almost exactly like ST. Some characteristics include repetitive behaviors, perseveration,echolalia and specific interests in one subject. ST is definitely representative of a type of person on the spectrum. Also, the label high functioning is often disparaged because the definition is unclear. Does the person have good verbal skills, self&care skills, academic skills,etc. So the expectation can run anywhere from Einstein to someone nonverbal who can hold down a supported job. And parents and caregivers love the label for some of the wrong reasons including a way to manage their feelings if guilt. I remember when Rain Man came out and so many parents I knew were trying to fit their kids into the savant model. It is so true that romantic relationships can be fraught for people on the spectrum because so many have real difficulties with social cues and are so needy. There are groups out there like GRASP that work on these issues with autistic people. I agree that ST is jealous of GT’s relationship with MY. I, like you, want so much for ST to have a happy life with people who truly care for him. Right now MY is too messed up and toxic for either brother, although, physically she’d be viewed as hot and alluring. I am hoping that the writers don’t give us facile, cliched resolutions.
@Old American Lady, thank you for sharing about your son. My daughter is on the high functioning end of the autism spectrum. She was an early reader, and has highly developed verbal comprehension and vocabulary, but she also has an auditory processing lag. It’s like all the words coming at her at a fire hose rate are blocked by a garden hose valve. And since she was small, she’s been a selective listener: if her brain is busy with something else, incoming verbal communication is blocked.
When my daughter was in elementary school, one of her teachers let her study mathematics from books at her own pace. My daughter quickly worked her way up four grades of math curriculum. Her teacher the following year made my daughter go back and keep pace with the rest of the class, which bored my daughter and she lost interest. My daughter also didn’t want to show her work. She’d zip through problems in her head, and having to write things down slowed her too much. (She also has fine-motor coordination issues, so handwriting is a challenge.) It wasn’t until my daughter got to high school and had a fabulous math teacher that her interest in mathematics was rekindled.
My daughter attended Caltech, where Einstein had been a visiting scientist, so she heard many stories about him. One tells of how he’d frequently be found wandering the campus and need help to find his lodging (also on campus).
I read on another site that ST makes a number of word-plays that are humorous, but, unless we’re Korean speakers, we wouldn’t get. I think that the character is child-like in some ways, but increasingly capable in others and I hope that the drama will show his development.
I think the actor is doing as good a job as he can with the character as written. I think he must have done some research and observing, but I haven’t seen any interviews yet. I’m happy that ST is shown in a positive light and hope it may continue.
@Old American Lady, do you think MY suggesting playing poker with ST is a nod to Rain Man? Or was she just trying to see if she could fleece him?
@Fern as Short answer-both. I think the writer might have wanted to pay homage to Rain Man. I also think MY’s motives are still selfish and scary. And it seems to me that she’s always testing everyone. Nobody seems unscathed.