We’re watching Episode 10 on Saturday, May 29th.
13:00pm UTC
09:00am EST
06:00am PST
09:00pm Singapore, Philippines
08:00pm Indonesia
03:00pm Greece
12:00am Sydney (Sunday)
08:30pm India
I’ll open the password-protected thread later.
Please be patient.
Here’s the rest of the schedule:
May 8: Ep 1Β
May 15: Ep 2
May 22: Ep 5
May 29: Ep 10
Jun 5: Ep 11
Jun 12: Ep 12
If you need the password, please email @nrllee and @miracle23 at bodflowergarden@gmail.com.
You’re certainly on the ball @pkml3. Thanks for the reminder!
I had plenty of time to fiddle around with schedule today, @GB. π
Hello Ladies,
I am in for the HP rewatch party!
Hello, I will be there too. I will be looking for details that I’ve missed this time around.
This should be Ok for me!
Since then… I’ve just been working. For my normal job, and for the screenplay. π
I thought I had reached something like the 3rd or 4th draft before. But after all the corrections, I don’t know what to call what was before. Or even if I can call the current version of Ws2 episodes 1 and 2 a final draft. I finally feel like it looks like a real screenplay! More punchy dialogues, care for the logic of the scenes, visuals and more concise descriptions. If the background and the purpose of the scenes don’t change and offer a good basis, the final result gives the full dimension. I improved the translation of W’s script that SJJ published, which is still very useful for me to acquire the standard of the Korean script format. (She had published it to help scriptwriters, actually).
THANKS to hospital playlist and its absurd dialogues that talk about other things and its deplorable exposition: I detected in my script some dubious moments. In particular a scene at the end of episode 2. I used SJJ’s script to see how she handled the montages. Since W episode 3 contains the most lavish montage I’ve ever seen in a drama. Almost an hour of content summarized in 10 minutes. A scene with 25 flashback inserts, numbered C#1 to C#25. So I did a montage too!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pFrMLRQIT_k
A conversation accompanied by a 15 step montage! Some of which add comedy to the already comedy oriented dialogue. And of course, an immediate assimilation for the audience.
I’m probably a pain to tell all this, but I’m up to my ears in it! It occupies my full attention, the usual obsession of writers I suppose. So, what else could I talk about? π
@WEnchanteur are you a scriptwriter? Wahhh do you know about enneagram? Do you use it to create a character? I read somewhere that LWJ and many scriptwriters / fiction writers use that. (sorry OOT)
Hi BulmaGoku! And… KAMEHAMEHA!!! You know I watched the whole DBZ x3 ?! π
I became one in spite of myself, because my writing style was very similar to a screenplay. So, I made the transition to be totally screenplay, it would be a pity not to do it. But I still thought long and hard about whether I wanted to keep a hybrid novel-screenplay style, or whether I wanted to go full screenplay. Thanks to SJJ’s script, I have all the tools I need to do that. So I go all-in.
I don’t use the tool that you’re talking about with the characters.
For the next drama I write, I’ll use this, or something very similar:
Character sheet.
GENERAL. (sex, age, occupation, marital status, origin, role)
BIOGRAPHY. (story lived before the drama).
APPEARANCE. (body, clothing)
ABILITIES. (special ability, strengths, weaknesses)
OBJECTIVES. (need, desire, mission)
PERSONALITY. (dominant traits, qualities, defects, values)
PSYCHOLOGY. (motivations, contradictions, internal conflicts)
LANGUAGE. (way of speaking, quotations)
REPUTATION. (what other people say)
ACTIVITIES. (habits, hobbies, possessions, social environment)
EVOLUTION. (reveal arc, transformation, maturity, alteration, decline, unmask)
Plus, a list of questions to ask myself, as if I were in the character’s shoes:
What do I love?
What do I hate?
What do I fear?
What do I believe in?
What do I like?
What do I want?
What am I sure of?
Who are the people who have made a difference in my life?
What discoveries have made a difference in my journey?
What decisions have influenced my life?
For the story I’m currently fixing, I used something similar, but it was very patchy and not always filled in as much from character to another. I was so into the characters that I barely needed it. However, in the future I will do something more specific.
Also, the characters are not set in stone at the beginning of writing. Between the time the drama is conceived (and prepared: outline) and the time it is written, the characters change. Already, they change according to future events! Plot twists! It’s retroactive and iterative. So the character sheet I’m presenting here is not written in a definitive way at the beginning. It can change a lot before you have the detailed structure of the story.
That’s why I think people who say that character-driven stories make better stories or better characters are wrong! These are stories that trap the story in a preconceived character, with little plot change. And little plot often means a lot of boredom for the viewer, although I will admit that the simple reactions of a good character can be a lot of fun. By being plot-driven, I also build the characters! According to their future actions, which will refine their original personality. This all happens before I write the story, of course. I have the double advantage! A thrilling story because of the plot-twists. And more suitable characters, whose redefined personalities will make it easier to write the side scenes. Writing a character-driven story is impossible for me anyway. I don’t even have that ability, or rather, I’m not interested at all. I could do it, for example, by writing a story based on a part of my life: whose everyday events were simply more incredible than fiction, with characters that ring true. But I prefer thrills, adventures, jaw-dropping plot twists, out-of-bounds comedy. I have no affinity for stories drawn from real life. I’ve never written one in the tons of stories I’ve written. But I do like to watch them in the movies when they’re well done. For example, a movie like Strass or Whiplash.
I found this website :
https://enneagram.bz/fr
Very interesting. A whole list of questions. Definitively usefull.
Can help to fill a character sheet. I put it in bookmark.
I’ll rewrite questions in one of my files.
It make a high number of questions to ask. Not easy. And a lot are subject to change, depending of the story. But better too much than not enough. I will think about that when I’ll write (maybe) Alien Surgeon. I don’t know when. I have to much work now about W s2. It will take months.
@WE @BulmaGoku I went for an Enneagram workshop ages ago and was amazed to discover myself, and others like me. I suppose it could help to put your characters into some ‘type’ to determine their likely reactions/responses.
Good to know you’ve got your next few months mapped out @WE … writing, writing, writing!!
βββ β ββΛβΛ΄β Λ)ΰ©β§βββ ββ
@WEnchanteur kamehamehaaaa… DG and DGZ are my all time fav. Manga and anime. I have full section in my library just for DG plus several tshirts ππ€
@WEnchanteur @GB i found out about Enneagram recently. I am still trying to decode what’s in there. It makes sense but I don’t know how to apply that into fiction writing. That’s why I was back to Kdrama and watched Reply1988 in the first place and now HP. I forgot where I read it that LWJ use enneagram to build up each characters, that’s why they are consistently in line with their arc and development. Basically it looks the same tools as @WEnchanteur explained upthere. Same steps same process. And yes, character-driven story is very difficult to write. The challenge is how to make it not boring π. I love Whiplash. The drumming is crazy.
@GB Have you ever use enneagram to write? In theory looks easy but it’s quite complicated when applied to real situations specially when confronted with other characters from different enn style. And it looks easy in Kdrama (Reply1988 and HP), I wonder how the writer deal with that. Unfortunately, no BTS about LWJ s writing process.
@BulmaGoku Since I do not write fiction or screenplays or anything like that, I guess the question does not apply to me. I liked the Enneagram just to know more about myself. I was amazed when towards the end of the workshop, we were seated in groups according to some answers that we’d given about our preferences and I found myself in a group of 3 with people how looked similar to me in some ways. It was uncanny! It seemed that people of the same type in the enneagram may have physical attributes in common as well.
As for creating characters, I have not tried, but drawing from what @WE says, it’s a lot of work regardless of what method we choose to draw out fictional characters, from our minds and our experiences.
@GB, true. I was surprised myself after taken the test. I found it is more on point than Myers Briggs.
I finally come realize Im missing out a LOT just lurking. Most of the goodies I want to read and enjoy are protected now so I am finally breaking my silence. Hi everyone!
Iβve been a long time visitor way back when BoD was new, just silently coming and going. I donβt know if I have anything to share as I am not detailed as most of you here but I too am hoping for flowergarden to bloom in the next season! Everyoneβs thoughts and insights here makes more sense to me than the winter garden or SW-IJ so I keep coming back to browse, read and enjoy.
I would like to get permission to join HP rewatch and other discussion related to HP, if I may? I have AK time zone so it will be very early for me but later during the day I can try share a little in the conversation.
I am also from Soompi and have been following nrlleeβs HP related posts.
Hello @Articmom! Send an email to BODFlowerGarden (itβs a gmail account) with your request and we will go from there. π
Glad you delurked, @Arcticmom.
I’ll be posting again on HP Season 2 and I’m contemplating on protecting most if not all write-ups with a password. I don’t mind posting out in the open, but my #1 priority is providing a safe space for the Flower Gardeners.
If ordinary readers of this blog are inconvenienced by the set-up, then they should blame the Winter Gardeners who lurk in this thread, harass our members and dox them online for having an opinion different from theirs. Some of them are certifiable.
I’ve open some of the old posts as “Throwback Thursday” posts.
As a reminder, the Throwback Thursday posts serve three functions:
First, it allows viewers who just discovered HP Season 1 know that there’s an alternative choice to WG and SW+IJ, and that our reasons are sound, reasonable, and deductive. Unlike fangirls, I like a character based NOT on looks, “feels” or “relatability” (I’m sorry, I don’t relate to immaturity). I like a character based on his/her meritorious and moral qualities…as I interpret them, of course.
Second, it provides the HP newcomers and lurkers in this blog with a forum to express their opinions. Based on my experience, if they cannot find anything – not even a single one? – to comment on in the last SIXTEEN Throwback Thursday posts, then I highly doubt that they’ll suddenly alter their passive mode, and find something to contribute in the Rewatch.
Third, it gives me the opportunity to assess whether newcomers are legit FG. WG have pretended to be FG or “neutral posters” to try to get in the protected threads.
This is how I view the situation:
The Throwback Thursday post is like a dinner buffet served in the dining room for new guests.
The Rewatch and Protected posts have the SAME dinner buffet meal but served in the private room for frequent guests who wish to remain anonymous, and don’t want paparazzi in their midst because they’ve been burned before. Frequent guests are comfortable with each others and don’t have to be guarded with their thoughts.
Now, is it wise to let the new guests mingle among my shy veteran guests?
No.
So, I say this to all newcomers and lurkers here —
Join the discussions in the Throwback Thursday posts or any open HP threads. Participation will determine access to Hospital Playlist Season 2 password-protected threads. π
Thank you Nrllee both for accepting my request here and over in the other forum also. I never got the chance to thank you yet for that one.
All the rules here are very reasonable for me, Packmule. In all my years of lurking I had seen/read the dramas that came up in this thread. You are doing the best thing in protecting everyone in this group. I am very shy myself. I actually had to pick up some courage to request for access but I am glad I finally did! I know I will struggle participating but I will try my best. Thank you so much for the welcome.
Welcome Arcticmom! I know you!π
Have no worries. Write whatever comes to your mind. We read everything π€£π€£π€£
@ArcticMom you donβt have to say much. Even a simple, βI agreeβ will suffice. I know you from Soompi. When you put yourself out there by daring to like all my posts in the Shipper Thread, youβve already been very brave π.
Long post : HP scene + Screenplay thinking, exposure, cliffhanger, script correction or rearangement.
In episode 10 of the Hospital Playlist rewatch, there was a long conversation scene in a car. It starts at 18:36. Rosa and Mr Ju.
A quite boring scene in this better episode, I had trouble to watch the first time, as is the case in the rewatch.
I’m interested in this because I also have a car scene at the beginning of my episode 4! Which is the beginning of episode 2, for a drama whose episodes are an hour long. (My episodes are 20 minutes duration).
So, I’m trying to figure out everything I need to avoid in there.
In HP, the scene lasts 4 minutes 30.
I took the subtitle file only. And strangely enough, although there is no acting, it makes much more sense with just the text.
In total, 93 subtitles. Translated into French: 4629 characters.
My car scene has 3938 characters. I’ll explain later why and how this scene exists.
There is an obvious risk. The scene already contains elements that make it more vivid, but it is not detailed as it should be. So, it’s why I correct it and write it with all the details as it should be on a real screenplay.
The question arises, should lines be removed or shortened? I did this before, before I arrived at a result where the natural flow flows easily. There is a very high amount of information in the scene. So it’s hard to know how to arrange that.
I analyze the car scene in HP a bit, and I realize several points.
First subtitle: nΒ°320.
The first 10 lines can be removed. It doesn’t add anything. And if one of the lines could be important, it could even be postponed.
Ideally, the conversation should have started with this:
nΒ°330.
Mr. Ju – “Jung-Won really wants to stop being a doctor?”
Why? Because the previous scene shows Jung-Won, and it was the perfect transition to avoid drowning the fish, and know who we are talking about.
Then, the scene talks about the fact that he wants to become a priest. Moments can be shortened. It is a situation that we already know. However, it is not useless to remind it a little, because we can easily get lost in the drama. A little redundancy is Ok.
I wondered what the point of the scene was. Mainly Rosa’s reaction to #352.
The rest can be severely shortened, including Mr. Ju’s reaction, but the main point should be kept:
Mr Ju – “You have raised wonderful and responsible children.”, as well as the word “selfish” used a little before.
I come to the best line of the scene, 5 seconds:
Rosa (352 to 354) – “They left their aging mother alone and became children of God. If that’s not selfish, what is?”
Then, until 413, it’s again very long, and easy to shorten. Again, a conversation that explains the motivations of a character who is not there, instead of showing us or making us feel them directly.
There are however in 394 :
Mr. Ju – “Time is the solution to some problems.”
This line is interesting. It gives a carefree side to Mr Ju. I don’t really see how time can fix things. A passive attitude. It gives us a glimpse of his personality, and also makes us wonder: what if it was true this time, or sometimes?
So much for this terribly long scene. Fortunately, the episode contained other more attractive scenes. Like the one with the fake boyfriend and Jang’s flower bouquet.
But on the whole, there is little substance left once the essentials are kept.
So now I’m left with my car scene, thinking of HP as a guide on what to avoid.
Unlike HP’s scene, most of the information in my scene is new, or for that which is not new, useful to recall because it was skimmed over very quickly before. It is therefore about exposure. But putting exposition in a static scene, I realize, is bad. Certainly, a lot of dramas do that too. And HP spends all its time doing this to excess. I had another scene (restaurant) like that at the end of episode 2, except that here I was able to do something decent with it. The scene was already comedy oriented, I was able to reinforce that and include a 16 step montage. I can remember Episode 1 of “I hear your voice”. Exposition scene start as a static one : FL tell her story to the judge, but… fabulous thing, it jump to Flashback ! So, we see it ! No boring dialogue of the FL telling her story.
How do you end up with this kind of scene? First of all, a statement of helplessness. The story decides on its own where it wants to go and how it unfolds. A lot of information is needed, and it becomes hyper-linked, so intricate that you can’t see how it could be removed or changed.
My car scene came like this: the way the heroine Ren-Bo reacts is surprising, even incomprehensible. Most of the information about her past has been hidden until now. Unlike W who shows Kang Chul at the beginning of episode 1, I didn’t use this for my story, for a deliberate purpose. So this car scene has the function of exposing that, while showing the reaction of the characters, to the idea that a new manhwa could become alive.
The only thing that brightens this up a bit, besides some of the lines, is a rough cut with images from the manhwa. First track to improve this. I also need to emphasize the most important line of the scene, which I forgot to do, even though it’s obvious. Finally, I can rack my brains to see if I can remove or shorten more.
For the manhwa montage, I still don’t know what and how. Should I put only manhwa images, or make them also real for a split second? Some of these images will also be experienced later. That’s why I want to incorporate them before in this car scene. And when these flashbacks will take place, I think I will use the manhwa image seen in the car to become real in the introduction of the sequence. Some sequences in episode 7 for example, I haven’t reworked yet, but I would like to use that.
It’s hard to make a decision. What motivates me to make the images real for at least a fraction of a second is the meaning of the story. That’s the exact moment when the manhwa becomes alive. This split second will then be developed later, when the whole scene is seen in a flashback of the heroine Ren-Bo.
To make the exposition possible here, I use the fact that one of the two characters is ignorant of the story of the manhwa. So it’s a (surprising) link to other elements of the story. I don’t see how I can backtrack on that, there’s too much impact. And I don’t want to, it would take away meaning elsewhere, and make the situation conventional. With another point of view, it could also look artificial. It’s a good trick to make someone ignorant, so you have to tell him something, when in reality, it’s something we say to the audience. Another bad point here. I have no idea how to hide this a little more.
Just delete the scene? The important line skips. And I have to at least show the two characters going home. Although really, you could also just see them going into their house, and that’s it. It was also a good scene at the beginning of the episode, which avoids showing directly the continuation of the cliffhanger from the previous episode.
The number of questions to be asked is staggering. But for all the reasons already mentioned and the focus of this scene, I have absolutely no reason to remove it, on the contrary. It is a scene that weaves a lot of threads with future scenes. But is it good to show or tell so much at this point? Endless dilemma.
My last idea is to make a split of this scene in 2 to 4 steps. Later, in the following scenes, there are several elements related to what the car scene is about. For example, if the heroine Ren-Bo reacts strangely, I could keep that as a surprise. Then comes one of the splits of the car scene, with the exposition element mentioned. This seems to me to be the right solution, but terribly difficult to do, because there is a huge risk: losing the natural flow of the dialogues of the following scene, being interspersed. I gain on an important point: better surprise. Although, in fact, the viewer already has an idea of what is going on, because of the penultimate scene of the previous episode. So the element of surprise is not so important anymore, and maybe I shouldn’t venture to make a cut of the scene in several parts. I don’t know, it’s a hell of a headache! Writing is not that difficult, things are prepared, everything flows. And if it didn’t flow, it would be impossible to write, because there is no magic involved when you have to think too much. But then, of course, comes the fateful moment. Having to do a lot of thinking and making decisions about corrections is scary.
After, I went to see the script of W. Episode 2, there is the montage that tells the story of Kang Chul. 22 sequences, of which only 17 were kept in the final version of the drama. Moreover, instead of being episode 2, it was postponed to 45:10 in episode 1. Except for one or two of these sequences a little too long (to regulate the length of the episode), it is excellent. It immediately brings explanations about the confusing situation between the first scene of the episode, and the fact that the character is then a Chaebol. So it’s also an expository scene, but it has the advantage of bouncing around more than mine. Although I also have some elements in the first hour, and the audience is guided to know that this manhwa will be important and will become alive. So, an answer to the curiosity of the viewer, who logically would like to know more. At least, I hope so.
However, this exposition scene of W is a full montage. We see the character and we acquire his motivation live. The voice-over of the scene is short on the total duration (7 minutes), only 17 lines, plus some very short lines of characters in the flashbacks.
My problem here is fairly typical: there is on the draft and outline everything you want to incorporate. It’s very dense, so you think: Okay, if it’s dense, nothing is unnecessary, it’s perfect. The scene is written with inspiration, the lines flow very well. Everything seems to flow. Maybe we could leave it that way (with a manhwa montage though). Only, once it has been resting for more than one year, and you come back to it… It sticks. The difference between the first draft (or even the second or third draft here), and the later vision is widening. No matter how many times I turn the question over in my head: could I have done better from the beginning? Yes, but when is the beginning? Actually, the beginning was before I wrote a single line. With just the structure and the outline. A number of documents so monstrous that it’s almost impossible to hold on to. With a still rather abstract dimension of what it will look like later. It can’t be as detailed an outline as a film. I always come to the same conclusion… It had to happen like this… I’m stuck. Like maybe Kim Eun-Sook was when she wrote The King Eternal Monarch, and ended up with tons of other problems, including a big bad who barely does anything more than half the drama.
All I can do now is make the best of it, whenever I detect a problem. No matter if it’s exposition, there’s certainly a way to make it more vivid, more impactful, more suited to the script, without having to rethink everything. At this point, the worst choice is to endlessly correct the first episodes. But I’m going pretty fast, since I finalized the first 3 in a week, or maybe two. That’s an hour of drama. After a certain level of complexity and cause and effect, a story becomes almost unalterable. Major changes in chronology are impossible. Or you have to rewrite the drama…
I see the adjustments that were made on W, when the 17 episodes of the script had to be condensed into 16 episodes of drama. Some scenes cancelled, or shortened. The cliffhanger of episode 1 was too good to be replaced by another one. So, the montage at the beginning of episode 2 was advanced in episode 1! And it works very well. Nothing has basically changed. Just a scene moved. Then, at the end of episode 2, a cliffhanger is placed, replacing the one that was planned in the script (a scene that comes earlier in the episode in the final version). I don’t know who made the change, the director or the writer. I think it was probably the writer, who posted her script, but the first version, not the final version. The cliffhanger chosen for the drama was better than the original script. There are so many possible cliffhangers in each episode that it is easy to replace one cliffhanger by another. At the end of episode 3, the cliffhanger of the script was excellent, Kang Chul shoots the heroine… suspense! Replaced by a more romantic cliffhanger, with the heroine becoming the main character of the manhwa. This works very well too. However, the script does not give the impression that it is a cliffhanger. So, by what miracle can this be done? In fact a lot of scenes can become cliffhangers, depending on how they are presented. Here, the change from the script is slight.
The hero is in the elevator. The heroine begins her voice-over. The elevator doors close, she finishes her voice-over.
Final version: The heroine starts her voice-over AFTER the elevator doors have closed, not before. This way, the director can emphasize the heroine’s expression, do a forward tracking, and culminate in her last line. Music, end image flash, credits.
Otherwise, there is the hardest solution: we take a scene in excess, we postpone it to the next episode (in flashback if necessary), so we fall in time for the cliffhanger. Or the opposite solution, if possible, we take a scene from the next episode and we put it in the previous episode, to fill the hole that leads to the desired cliffhanger. It takes a lot of luck to get that. I wonder if drama writers have a less linear writing style than I do, giving themselves more opportunities to do this kind of postponement. At this point, everything seems so chronologically intertwined that I don’t see how to do that.
At this point, I’m aiming for those kinds of changes, rather than a complete overhaul. Improve what’s already there. Cutting, maybe moving a little bit. But not turn everything upside down.
If someone said to me: the first hour of the drama is too short, we have to change that. What to do? The cliffhanger episode 3 is too good to change. However, I don’t have any scene from the next episode to move forward. Should we add a new scene instead? To say what? Everything is condensed and already said. Maybe even, something should be removed instead. Or would this famous car scene come in episode 3? Just before the cliffhanger scene? Except that it’s lame. And the penultimate scene already ends with a tension point, which would be cancelled.
Sorry for the long post. Just the questions I have about screenplay. But that’s what we do here, analyze in depth. Finding the meaning of each scene, and the connections it has with the rest of the drama. And of course, in my personal approach: always make sure that a scene is not confusing, never boring, that it can be watched, and then watched again, with the same pleasure. In addition to that, I have to ask myself questions: what should I tell the viewer at a certain point in the story? How to create more mystery? Should we hide something or not? When to reveal? How to reduce the exposure or make it more natural?
@WEnchanteur I visited your website. I wanted to ask you about your DBZ 3x rewatch. I didn’t ask you here because It is not a kdrama. Are you still active there ?
It’s a little crazy, but writing the previous post helped in incredible ways.
A little nap in between also helped. I had a silly dream that I was on vacation in some sort of giant hotel. Except I couldn’t find my way around it because it was too big. ^^
I found a way to cut this car scene into 5 stages!
All the stage ends have a meaning relative to the scene in between.
There is even one of these in-between scenes where the meaning changes drastically and fits much more into the logic of the story.
I found a way to shorten some of the lines in the car scene.
And also change the staging of the beginning of some of the in-between scenes, with a few lines that could also be removed.
All that’s left to do is work on it. π
@GB, Hey, I’m here.
Yes, I watched this 3 times. One when I was very young. Another time 10 years later, and last time, some years ago. π
Some part are a bit boring when they talk too much instead of fighting. But there is many good comedy. I know they published a condensate version of the anime. I don’t remember the name. I took a look at it, should be fine and better than the old serie. It fit more what wanted to make the manga author, who made a manga more fast paced than the original anime.
Oups, it’s not GB, sorry, but BulmaGoku. The icon was same color so I mismatched.
I answer on the blog. π