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46 Comments On “Red Sleeve: Eps 7 & 8 Open Thread”
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Thanks @pkml3. Heh! I can probably try to watch the unsubbed episode at this time, but it’ll probably be better to wait until tomorrow.
I just saw episode 7 on Viki where it is now fully subbed. This was quite an emotionally charged episode, especially the last scene. I do think Deok Im is denying her true feelings because she wants to say no to being the future king’s concubine, and becoming a puppet of the likes of the head court lady in the process.
Political intrigue and unexpected assassins aside, it’s push and pull time in the relationship of 2 kids in love. I believe they are still like 18 and 19 years old, with racing hormones and stuff, so the moments of distraction are understandable. I think it happens for ahjusshis and ahjummas too LOL.
While I’m glad to see that DI has found her brother, I do wonder what he was doing in the market, watching DI and Wol Hye. Is he really not preparing to enter into government/military career but is perhaps a spy or working in something shady? He may have been following the assassin maid, Wol Hye, who was suspicious of him.
What struck me was that he did not identify himself to DI at once. It was only after she recognised him, that he acknowledged their past and family ties. A bit of subterfuge there?
According to Wikipedia, granddad King died at age 81. This Show has a couple of episodes ago, had Hd CL Jo saying that he would be 80 years old soon. I guess we’ll get to see the ascent of Yi San and how DI did her part supporting and protecting him.
Gosh, the assassin Wol Hye is an interesting character. So she is the Chief Court Lady’s niece. I wonder why she revealed that to DI now. I wonder when and why she was trained to be an assassin. If she killed the guardsman, could she be working for Yi San and his group?
I feel like Secretary Hong is playing both sides. He is Yi San’s closest confident, so will have the most important role in government if Yi San becomes King. However, he also meets with people who are conspiring against Yi San – people who may have helped him into the court initially. He is setting DI’s and her friends up for treason by permitting the maid to keep the books. I wondered why DI didn’t ask him to take responsibility. I like that she gave him the token to give to his sister, but will he also use that against DI? Finally, is he preparing his sister to become queen eventually?
There have been many comments on the last scene and the balance of power. Reminding myself that this is a Joseon Court and that toxic masculinity and violence/whatever is probably not only accepted, but at some level approved by those in the highest positions, I am not surprised. The queen herself said that she had been too lax in dealing with the Princess and the king approved the punishment. But it’s disheartening.
One thing that bothers me in Ep 7 is how DeokIm’s big brother just pops out of nowhere. There’s no narrative that shows or tells us anything about him. Only that they got separated when they were little, and then BOOM, he’s back. 🧐
So glad to have found this discussion. I really appreciated the detailed commentary on script, history etc etc re eps 5 and 6. This is a really satisfying series. I keep re-watching. Any theories about the symbol on Deokim’s back? Are we supposed to know already or is this a link back to her mysterious past?
p.s. I was annoyed by the ‘I adore the Crown Prince’ sequence where the CP misses half the conversation. It didn’t feel real to Deokim’s character to even tease her friends in this way… uncharacteristically indiscreet. It was a clumsy plot device. Even if his response was charming! The story telling is usually pitch perfect so things like this stand out more.
I adore the restrained intensity of the Crown Prince in Episode 7. Just want to keep watching some scenes over and over again.
@goldenashes97 – about the brother’s reappearance: DI inquired about her brother during her visitation day and the Crown Prince’s mom (Princess Hyebin) inferred that she wouldn’t tell her where her brother was unless she spied on the CP for her. So I wonder if the subterfuge has something to do with that? (Is he hiding from PH?)
Does anyone know the significance (or not) of the blue sleeves DI’s brother gave her? Merely for warmth, or to temporarily mask her identity as a red sleeves lady?
I thought the murders by the court lady were way out of left field. The representation of a court lady trained to be an assassin is pretty far-fetched–but if anyone knows of any previous dramas (or historical times!) where this happened, let me know.
Also–I’m wondering if the head court lady chose DI from the beginning to be a royal concubine because of her connection to PH? (But if you’re also planning for the downfall of the CP, as the head court lady has been doing, aren’t you also setting up your chosen court lady for equal doom–as in exile or even execution?)
@GB I’m not sure how much would have progressed since DeokIm’s coming of age ceremony which is supposed to be when they are about 15, and Yisan would have been 16yo then. Still at that age, them not being fully adults yet are really mature for their age.
I have so many questions like @BethB on the blue sleeves…probably got to do with the title? and with @GB and @goldenashes97 on the sudden appearance of DeokIm’s brother. What is happening here? I’m hoping we get some explanation further in the episodes. Like both of you and @Fern, I’m finding the assassin way too swift in her killing. She’s a court maid, where does she find time to train? Then again….she may have been trained in secret for a day like this.
@BethB, @grace,
Although actual history may record it differently (I did not check), according to this Show’s version of DI’s age … she entered service at age 7 (she said this when she told the King her sad story, because he threatened to kill her) and it’s been 10 years. So in this Show she’s supposed to be around 18. There was sometime still before the actual Coming-of-Age Ceremony, by which time she might have been nearer 19 years of age. In any case, kids of the past had to grow up very fast compared to our coddled kids of today.
I’m not sure about the colour of her sleeve cuffs. I thought her current colour is deep pink. It would only turn red when the Court Lady had been chosen for concubinage, or was chosen to be the King’s woman. I thought that Brother merely wanted to gift DI with something and that it had no significance. She would only be able to wear those blue sleeves outside the palace, when they were out of uniform.
I’m thinking Show has taken dramatic license over some details. Wol Hye does conveniently explain to DI that she can take her off day whenever she wants because of her connections ie Hd Ct Lady is her aunt. Soooo…. we are to assume that she had time off to learn how to become an assassin. She was installed in the palace to spy and ‘work’ for her aunt who has her own plans. Since this intrigue has been going on for over a decade (I’m guessing from the time she mentions Prince Sado) it is possible that a person in some authority in the palace could prepare an assassin or two. Whether it is probable, is another question.
However we do know that loads of intrigue really does take place, and people were killed in the palace (I think often poison or hanging), to silence them, but it might have been made to look like suicide. So having an unexpected card up one’s sleeve, like a woman assassin, might not be totally far-fetched, especially if poison was the weapon.
Yes, Hd CL Jo installed DI near the Crown Prince so that it would be possible that they might form an attachment. However, if they had not gotten on, and if DI did not find favour with Yi San, it would have been a failed plan.
I’m not sure Hd CL Jo has all that real regard for people like DI who are meant to be ‘used’. She might like her, admire or approve her up to a point, and has tested DI since she was a child, but it’s likely that if Jo’s plans are going to be upset by DI, DI will be expendable. She wants someone she has influence over to be in a position close to the Crown Prince. (The same goes for Princess Hyebin, who already started using DI in the same way, only her aim is to keep the Crown Prince safe, rather than to bring him down.)
The Queen is also interesting. She knows that enemies are all around the Prince. Her palace is safe but not his. She may have more of a true regard for DI, by offering her a place in her palace, where she can live a longer life. Hanging out with the Prince was almost a guarantee of facing danger to life and limb.
@DethB @grace @GB the red sleeves represent that the court ladies belong to the King. The King ‘owns’ all court ladies, and he can make any of them his concubine anytime he wants. So I guess San was feeling possessive when DeokIm’s red sleeves were covered with blue ones, which is kinda funny considering he is yet to become King. But then again, he saw that the blue sleeves were given tk DeokIm by an unknown man, so he was definitely seething in jealousy.
@GB, @Grace, @BethB and others,
Do you mind helping @Kate out? She’s a newcomer and has a question about a tattoo on DeokIm’s body?
I’m at the beach house and I don’t have my laptop with me to repost her comments. Her posts might be buried under your comments today. Thanks!
Hey just I caught up on this! It’s quite swoony to see every time the Crown Prince came to rescue DI!
@Kate, the tattoo is the Chinese character 明 (Ming). Note that I didn’t read up the historical setting/history on it to avoid spoilers. Ming, depending on the combination of the Chinese characters can have many meanings so it is too early to tell. It can be used to form many words, it can be be “Moon” 明月 , or tomorrow “明天”, or “clear understand” 明白 or even Ming dynasty. Could it be a family name? Or a hidden message? It is hard to know without more context with one single character Ming.
I like the how the shots of red cuff represent and link to the Crown Prince’s Mood/feelings for DI.
Ep 1: the red cuff is used to wipe off San’s tear. That’s the start of their love story. Also tell us the back story of San’s grandmother
Ep 6: the red cuff touching the bath water reminded Crown Prince that DI is his person, stirred up his jealousy and then a confession of his care.
Ep 7-8: the red cuff gave Crown Prince a sense of security when DI rejected him. At the same time, when the red cuff is covered, it stirred up his dark side and realised he may lose DI. He is quite scary when he was threatening SI.
I do hope that he won’t turn bad under his emotional abuses from the grandfather. Nature and Nurture. The Sado back story is tragic. I read that plot of Yoo Ah In’s The Throne before. (didn’t watch it to avoid crying) He had problems regulating emotions (Was he born mad? Was he born cruel? Or driven to it?) From the Joseon stories/dramas I watched there isn’t much room/right sort of nurturing for people who behaved outside the set royal standard.
A little off topic, a nice The Throne OST sang by Cho Seung Woo
Thanks @Viva! Hi @Kate, and welcome to BOD! I had to go out, and I see that @Viva beat me to replying on the character on DI’s back.
Yes, @Viva gave you the answer … I asked people who should know and they said that it was a mirror image of the word ‘ming’ which means bright. That’s because San was looking at a mirror’s reflection of DI’s back. It can mean bright as in shiny or bright as in smart, etc, etc depending on what other characters go with it.
Your comment made me think about whether DI’s past was mysterious. I believe she told the King the truth. As children their mother died, she and her brother were separated, and she hoped to see him again to give him the 100 nyang that she had saved. In addition, from episode 7, we hear her brother give more info about their dad.
Brother Sung Sik to DI : “Father was killed because he was a royal guardsman. He was branded a traitor on the day the Crown Prince died. That could be the consequence of working for the government. Would you still like me to become a military official?”
It sounded like their father sided with Prince Sado and so was executed/killed as a ‘traitor’, when Sado was put into the rice chest. His wife, and children, Sung Sik and Deok Im would probably have been labeled as traitors as well, and killed too. I’m just guessing that their mother was probably killed, and the children threw themselves upon the mercy of Princess Hyebin, wife of Prince Sado. She became their patron, by ensuring that they could live and get an education. She assigned DI to the palace to become a court lady, since that gave her employment and fed her, plus it put a person of her own in the palace to spy for her.
The main mysterious thing is what Sung Sik is doing. Was he following Wol Hye, and if so, why? Wol Hye had noticed that he’d been staring at them for some time. Did he recognise Deok Im from at first? If so, why didn’t he identify himself at once after saving her? Is there another reason why he does not seem to want to take the exams for the military official position? Is he already working for someone now? He looked well fed and could afford to get blue sleeve cuffs for DI, so he’s probably employed somewhere.
The scene of the girls on picnic and confessing what kind of man they admired was only unusual in that the girls would have had to sneak out all those things to roast their nuts and cook food, without getting caught.
The girls’ conversation was typical. DI wanted to offset questions then and for the future too, maybe, by teasing them with the truth. She probably did want to tell them that she liked the Crown Prince, but at the same time, it was not something that anyone should admit seriously, (it would be too dangerous), and so she turned it into a joke. I thought it was well played, and of course, poor bodyguard, believed it hook, line and sinker, as did DI’s friends.
The thing is that all other court ladies fought shy of going near the Crown Prince, therefore the idea that DI might actually like him would be ludicrous to them. It made more sense over all that she didn’t.
What a shock to them it will be, to find out that it’s the Gyeomsaseo whom they all admire, who will be the real snake.
Junho does intense and restraint acting very well. 😉
Thank you all _ Packmule3, Viva and GrowingBeautifully – for the kind welcome and for the info and reflections re the mark on Di’s back.
GB I am glad you saw some virtue in what I thought was a poor plot device. Your positive interpretation makes sense to me.
Good to be on board with this discussion!
@Kate @pm3 In trying to answer the question about DI’s tattoo, I’ve really gone down the rabbit hole (Internet) this morning.
Historically in Korea, tattoos were used as punishment (marking thieves) or to brand slaves. Nowhere have I found any text that states that court ladies were considered slaves and were marked by the court so I’m assuming this isn’t the case. [If anyone knows otherwise, let me know!]
One interesting note: King Jeongjo (CP’s grandfather) abolished tattooing as punishment by royal decree in 1740. I had been wondering if DI might have been tattooed because her father was considered a traitor—-traitors were often tattooed as such and then executed in previous times during the Joseon era. But if punishment tattoos had been outlawed by then, this can’t be the case because Red Sleeve is currently taking place around 1775 (one year before KJ dies) and DI is only 18-19 years old.
According to a paper I found online, The Korean Tattoo Culture, tattoos were also used during this period to mark partnerships or family alliance. But who would have tattooed DI? Surely not her brother, from whom she parted when she was still a child-—how would he have had the means to tattoo her? It’s a mystery the show will have to solve for us. (Since the Chinese character can also mean “Moon,” I’m hoping it’s not a symbol tying her to the Moon Fairies, the Head Court Lady’s secret society—that is, she was tattooed by the HCL when she arrived in the palace and DI didn’t question its meaning since she was young).
One interesting side note (way down the rabbit hole): currently some young men in SK have been using tattoos to get out of military service! This article discusses that, as well as some of the history of tattoos in SK—including how SK people with tattoos in the 1980s were sent to military-run camps: https://www.cbsnews.com/news/draft-dodging-south-korean-style/
@BethB, I have watched two Kdramas that depicted networks of female assassins: The Tale of Nokdu and Six Flying Dragons. Those networks were funded and operated through ginsaeng houses. I’ve seen two Kdramas that included individual female assassins: Sungkyungkwan Scandal and Mr. Sunshine. I don’t know if female assassins are historically accurate, but they are a Kdrama trope.
As for tattoos, I’ve seen a scene in Six Flying Dragons when someone’s “crime” (he was being framed) was tattooed across his forehead in Chinese characters. The shame of carrying that permanent mark in his skin, even though he knew he was innocent, led him to commit suicide. My guess is that DI’s shoulder tattoo, not visible while she is clothed, was meant to mark her as a criminal or slave; I’d think those kind of markings would be visible to the public.
According to historical accounts,Prince Sado was revealed to be dead eight days after he was forced to climb into the rice chest; up to seven days after he was sealed in, people outside heard a response from him within. We’re told DI’s father was branded a traitor on the day Prince Sado died, which was eight days after he entered the rice chest. I wonder if it had anything to do with the opening of the rice chest.
As for the blue cuff covers given to DI by her brother, I thought they were sleeve protectors. I’ve seen sleeve protectors worn in modern-setting Kdramas, most recently in Hometown Cha-Cha-Cha by one of the city hall workers as a standard part of his office attire.
I hope that DI’s brother won’t be killed by order of the jealous Crown Prince before he is revealed to be DI’s sibling. That would be an impediment to DI’s love for Yi San, I’d imagine.
The first thought about the tattoo was that she belongs to someone, and like @BethB said tattoos could be used to mark partnerships or family alliance. Remember she and her brother begged Queen Hyebin to save them and it could be then that they became part of Queen Hyebin’s people, possibly the reason how she could be recommended into being a court lady. Maybe they will give us a reason for that tattoo down the road but for now I’m spectualting that.
One more thing, anyone notice anything about the flowers?
– DeokIm said something about nipping it in the bud,
– there were flowers in Yisan’s room (the end the scene with the flowers in the foreground),
– there were flowers in the bath water
– Queen Juugsoon was always sewing a flower
– Yisan excitedly showed DeokIm the flower that bloomed
It is really subtle and I would love to look deeper in the meanings for it but for now I don’t have the time to.
Oops, I spelled it wrong. The Korean word for courtesan is kisaeng or gisaeng.
Another oops above due to a typo. What I wanted to say was that I think the tattoo on DI’s shoulder does NOT mark her as a criminal or slave.
This is what comes from trying to type with fat thumbs on a mobile phone.
Kalimera,
Those two episodes were pretty good.
Yes, we got to see the Yi San’s darkness that was expressed because he got jealous about the blue cuffs. We also, got to see his love and protection when he tried to be non chalant in front the Queen and the King to save Deok Im.
I am pretty sure that the Queen has realized that those two have feelings for each other.
I agree with @GB Unnie, that these two are just two kids in love, but their background won’t let them enjoy that love in a way.
I was extremely surprised with the story of the Moon Fairies and how Court Lady Park revealed to us that the Current Head Court Lady was the one who made Crown Prince Sado to become crazy as revenge to his Father the King who didn’t take her as a Concubine.
Even though it was a plot twist different from the Historical events, still it was a nice touch.
@Grace, Regarding your comment about the flowers.
We have seen the flower in Yi San’s royal apartment before. If I remember correctly the other time was that night when Deok Im sworn her allegiance to the Crown Prince. The flower is white in edges with red in its core.
White in color means purety. We know that red represents the sudden, pathos, blood and maybe death. We have also to notice if the following scenes depicted any of those.
In the bath, it was rose petals that were thrown in. If I remember correctly, the petals were pink and red. It kinda depicts romance and love.
As for the Queen sewing the flower. Was it there a peacock as well? I think it was.
Yi San showed Deok Im the flowers in his father’s private garden that bloomed after all these years. I took this as a display of his blooming feelings. That flower was also red.
There are many things as symbols and we need to pay attention as it seems…
The flowers that Deok Im waters in the garden are white daisies. In western culture, their white flower is a symbol of purity, spring, innocence. In Chinese tradition, they can represent death and ghosts. I don’t know if they symbolise that or not in Korean historical tradition – or possibly both innocence and death which may be apt for the dead prince.
Off topic: Chrysanthemums are one of my favourite autumn flowers, but I was told while in France, that cut chrysanthemums of any colour are for funerals and graves. I’m so glad I never offered them as a gift!
@Welmaris, when the four court ladies were sewing, they were all embroidering a red flower. This was when one of them told the story about the moon fairies and later they were conversing about the bundle that the old lame court lady tried to bring to the prince. I had the impression that she had been his or his father’s nurse/nanny.
Gosh, the Head Court Lady is a piece of work. She has gone overboard in trying to protect herself and her 300 fellow court ladies – I wonder if she will team up with the Gyeomsaseo and the nasty princess. They are the three people I find the most troubling here. Her palace is a very frightening place and if she has had her neice train to be an assassin, has she trained others as well? I also wonder if the killing and maiming of court ladies by Prince Sado had something to do with her and her minions? -The old court lady accused the Head Court Lady of causing the Prince’s madness. What was the cause of the old court lady’s lameness?
I also wondered if Yi San’s mother is telling the truth or bluffing about the change of titles.
I’m feeling low-key sorry for the adopted son of the princess. His mother is impulsive and unpredictable and she will end up getting him in trouble along with her.
Finally, wasn’t Yi San chilling with his words that he would poison the second official personally? I guess it’s dog eat dog there and survival of the fittest.
@Grace, @Welmaris, @Cleo, @Fern, @Janey and Everyone
Glad to know that you’re more or less fine and recovered/recovering from your booster jabs.
Thanks for mentioning the flowers. I kept noticing that in San’s room, the camera would sort of shift to a different angle with the flowers to be included, then do a fade out/blur out of Yi San and change focus to be on the flowers in the foreground. This happened in more than 1 episode.
The flowers were white with red sepals. Passion in the midst of innocence? Danger lurking behind while on the surface things are light and bright?
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-dbMmkqTCWj-u_T1pjn21fPPZmIu1pqN/view?usp=sharing
I’m guessing (but not sure) that the flowers in San’s room were artificial Peach Blossoms. Here are the actual flowers that seem to have coloured sepals.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1zkxO0xB4fRl3FWnMe0_W9UayeNIxkBUQ/view?usp=sharing
@Fern, the lame Court Lady Park was the Ct Lady of Sado’s mother, which makes the grandmother’s Ct Lady. She may have helped in taking care of Yi San when he was younger.
My subs mentioned that scary Hd Ct Lady Jo has 700 court ladies under her, although her ‘cult’ of court ladies will be a subset of that.
I really wonder where it is that she can have such a big ‘hall’ for herself and her ladies. That many court ladies can’t all have left the palace to attend the meeting … which means that she’s managed to set up her own huge domain somewhere in the palace grounds? And the royalty all none the wiser? I guess they have their meetings in the dead of night when they won’t be missed, but still, there’d be a huge coming and going of women at night, which should spark suspicion among the guards.
@Fern what change of titles were you referring to that Yi San’s mother spoke of?
I’m not sure now blood-thirsty Yi San was in real life, however in order to garner respect, I guess he’d have to talk tough.
@Cleopetra, yes thanks for taking note of that!0 the flowers seem to have mostly white and red theme to it, whether real and sewn on.
@Fern, yes even in Asia, at least for the Chinese, Chrysanthemums whether yellow or white are used for funerals usually, and for ancestor worship. My grandma used to buy them plus another kind of daisy like lavender, yellow, white flowers to put on the altar. Pretty common to find in the markets. But I also love the white Chrysanthemums, they are beautiful.
@GB, on YiSan historically I read that he can be very severe but when it is reasonable, he would let it pass, like the incident with the Gyeongaseo. This also sounds like the King, one moment he is so angry and then he will suddenly change his stance. So it does seem like an unpredictable character but I think it is also to create a kind of fear so that people do not take him too lightly.
I have to also say I loved the ending of episode 8. I know the meet at childhood troupe is common in kdramas. It does not follow what is known as recorded in history but I loved how the story is woven like that. I was also moved when King recalled that incident. It was such a heartfelt moment, DeokIm is quite a good storyteller.
Hello, @GB. The change of titles I referred to was towards the end of episode 8. The princess had thrown tea on Yi San’s mother. Yi San’s mother looked at her in a pitying way and said that the Crown Prince had agreed to a change in titles: She would become Her Highness (or something like that) and the princess would just be a Mrs.
Thanks @Fern. I went back to watch that scene.
What Princess Hyebin said in the Show according to my subs : “As the Princess says, I cannot become the Queen Dowager, forever. I’ll forever be simply a consort. But my son will surely look after the mother who bore him. And someday he will give me a palace name. He’s already decided my palace name and titles: ‘Her Highness of Hyegyeong Palace’. And so, that’s what people will soon call me.”
Hyebin smiles to herself and says to Hwawan: “And you Princess, do you know what others will call you? When the Crown Prince becomes king, you will lose your title. No longer a princess, you’ll be demoted to a simple commoner. Your dead husband was a member of the Jeong clan. So you’ll be the wife of Jeong, or Mrs Jeong, I suppose.”
I feel this part of the script is not so much a prediction, but taken from history ie from hindsight. The scriptwriter put in this part based on what did happen. Wikipedia tells us that Hwawan did indeed incur the wrath of officials who urged King Jeongjo to get rid of her. He did not execute her as was demanded, but she was exiled and became a commoner.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Hwawan
From Wikipedia : “Eventually, Jeongjo ascended the throne in 1776, following the death of his grandfather. For a long time, Jeongjo was willing to forgive Princess Hwawan, for she being the favorite daughter of the late king and his aunt. Yet, since the beginning of the reign, numerous officials asked the new king to execute the princess of her acts. Eventually, Princess Hwawan lost her title, becoming a commoner in 1778.”
About Princess Hyebin:
“Lady Hyegyeong of the Pungsan Hong clan, 6 August 1735 – 13 January 1816), also known as Queen Heongyeong, was a Korean writer and Crown Princess during the Joseon Dynasty. She was the wife of Crown Prince Sado and mother of King Jeongjo. In 1903, Emperor Gojong gave her the posthumous name of Heongyeong, the Virtuous Empress.”
That’s from https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lady_Hyegyeong
I do not have lots of time to read this though I itch so much to so I will just savour it slowly. You can read the translated Lady Hyehyeong Memoirs here in the link. Seems like quote a well translated one with a good genealogy, references and sources. I am sure the writer Kang Mi Kang, have read the memoirs in detail.
https://www.sas.upenn.edu/~cavitch/pdf-library/Hyegyong_Memoirs.pdf
Btw anyone knows if there is an english translated version of this drama’s novel?
Thank you for the history behind the scene, @GB. It is a fascinating point in the Joseon dynasty, isn’t it? While the princess may have deserved (from prevailing thought) a worse punishment, exile and demotion really would hit her where it hurts.
When they say exile, where would these people go? China or Japan, or? There must have been a Korean diaspora somewhere at that period. I also read that they were often shipped off to Jeju Island or other islands. Many struggled, but some flourished.
http://theislandreview.com/content/bogil-island-korea-michael-gibb
Thank you @Beth B for further research into the tattoo. I also hope very much it has nothing to do with the Fairies and prefer the idea of family alliances like the one @Grace suggested. One thing is clear – San doesn’t know what it represents and I am satisfied with it being a mystery for now.
This episode 8 reminded me of episode 1 and their encounter. At that point I was unable to understand it but on rewatching episode 1, I got a sense that the childhood chance encounter was a foreshadowing. Even in those times DeokIm was a welcome presence and support for him:
~ She accompanied him in the dark even though it was he who had the light to guide them
~ She gave him comfort in his sorrow by her support and comfort (“crying too much is bad for your body”)
~ She helped him escape when there was danger
I might unearth more hindsight as I rewatch the rest of the episodes.
@Cleopetra, after some digging, those flowers in his room are Plum blossoms. They blossom from mid-winter to late winter and one of the rare flowers that blossom during that period. It is a symbol of winter and has a subtle fragrance. It symbolises perseverance and hope, beauty, purity and the transitoriness of life.
There are more flowers and maybe I might slowly read up more as I catch up with the rest of my rewatch.
I like the plots between DI and YS in the 7th episode.
They were arguing about whether DI should take the mandarin from YS.YS said it was the only one left, and he wanted her to have it. But DI refused to take it because it was improper, unfitting her status in the palaces.”Are we talking about a mandarin or what?”
Surely not. At least, For DI the mandarin represented the affection of the Crown Prince. She simply can not just take it because YS wanted her to have it.
Soon enough, YS turned another way around it. Where can a court lady go instead of the palace? he felt security because he knew that DI has to be on his side and had nowhere to go.
But then, he found that DI was receiving a present from a young and good-looking man with a cozy smile which YI has never seen before.
Now the Prince is hurt. He hid in the library, expecting DI came to find him. Because he needs to confront her privately. Lately in the night finally, DI came to find him with the excuse of running an errand.
Are you looking for me? He asked twice.
“No” (good job, DI!)
YI burst out” Are you not mine?””Not all of me….”Said DI. Then he pushed her to the shelf and choked her neck which made him looks like an DV man made my heart pound and love the intensity between the 2 actors.
@Kuroshio, when San pinned DI against the bookshelf with his hand around her neck, I yelled at the screen, “You’ve become your father!” I’m disappointed he was thinking in such a manner, but glad that he backed down and didn’t harm DI physically. So, no, he’s not yet his father. However, it must be terrifying for someone in her position–a palace servant–to be told that her life and death is in someone else’s hands. I imagine that would do a fair amount of psychological damage.
I’m curious if there’s any historical proof of secret organizations of court ladies or other servants within the palace, or if it is purely fictional. I don’t doubt that palace workers were used as spies, or to poison a member of the court, but was it at the instruction of those holding high power in the court or was it under the direction of one of their own?
@Welmaris Yes!!His father, too!! Oh, I forget about his father, but I did think about his grandfather who abused and insulted him in the public all the time. How can he be okay in that circumstance? (Hopefully, he did not become a tyrant). That make DI’s sincere comfort precious when she wiped his tears for him when they were little.
I do believe there are organizations between court ladies because there is the rank between the court ladies and servants which means they have their system of command, and it will be very easy to make a copy of their own. And their masters have a rank too. Like DI’s father, he was branded a traitor the day Prince Sado died, which means that they are not secure in the Palace. So having their network to get information from others would be fatally important for them. But the performance of that secret organization in this drama is a little bit too much for me. They look like a cult than an organization.
@grace,
Nice catch! In #TKEM the royal emblem was a Plum blossom!
If you find more about the flowers and its meanings do post!
@Kate @Welmaris @Kuroshio That last scene of ep 7 was indeed restraint intensity (brilliant delivery of the actor!). It oddly charged with tension and reminded me that San is someone who can command life and death of a court lady. So far DI can freely say No and that’s because San lets her to do so.
After all he was subject to an abusive Grandfather with strong mood swings for all these years. It will bound to influence him. It is a dark side I don’t like to see but I think it adds a bit more reality to his character.
He redeemed his bad behaviour a bit when he came to rescue DI later. For her to live, he is willing have her exiled (not that great a choice for DI), even it means no longer be by his side which we know how important it is to him.
So I hope he will stick his thoughts:
“What is the King affection? Is it to kill the child of his love so that woman lives as a ghost of her former self? I’m different from you, Grandfather.
I am going to protect those I love no matter what. I am never going to love the way you loved.”
@Viva, I agree with you that San’s dark side adds more reality to his character. When you think of his grandfather’s bizarre way of showing his love… Gosh, when his grandfather struck him then embraced him tearfully saying you know I love you, I felt ill. That sort of behaviour over a young person’s lifetime is bound to have an effect. I feel that he is struggling to understand how to set himself apart from that, but how? The court is toxic on so many levels.
I felt that Mrs Seo is one of the more balanced characters, but she has been forced to join the Court Lady version of a diabolical union. His body guard is another good influence, but doesn’t seem to be a match for Hong Deok-ro’s machinations. There don’t seem to be many good characters in this court. I look forward to seeing how San and DI can navigate the traps set for them.
They are giving us 1 more ep. 17 in total.
https://www.soompi.com/article/1502862wpp/the-red-sleeve-confirms-plans-for-1-episode-extension
Thanks for the welcome news @nrllee. I, too, was a bit worried about there being enough time for us to see San ascend the throne. I hope we get to see a hopeful, happy ‘ending’. We know of course the real events in history, but Show could end on an open and sweet note, I feel!
Kalimera Ladies!
Good to know we have one more episode! Thank you @nrllee for the link!
@Fern I hope suffering it first-hand will give him some motivation to be different. He may not know how to be different, but he seems to have the ability to listen. I recalled in the earlier episodes he was taken when DI told him he must learn to apologise. He trusts her and hopefully with her tactful talking she can help to steer him right.
I went back and saw Wol Hye was around San’s resident when Hong was telling him the name of the traitor.
I am now thinking the tattoo may give San some a headsup on DI’s background. He already knew DI’s best friends and “parents” without DI telling her. With 9 more episodes I wonder if they will eventually dig up on DI’s background, daughter of a traitor and I wonder that will harm her in some way.
The adopted son and the Princess – do you think they have much age difference? She seems to care for him a fair bit. It is exceptional given her nature and look down on non royal background. Isn’t he just a son of a fisherman?
Thanks for the update @nrllee. Is the filming still going or finished? That will take us to the new year finishing 8 Jan. Can’t believe 2022 is so soon!
@Viva, while the adopted son is the son of a fisherman, that fisherman may have been exiled from court? Was’t there a recent sageuk, about a king who – as history tells it – was an exiled fisherman’s son? There was no other male descendent available. I can’t remember names now. It’s fun to conjecture.
Excited for the extra episode!
I thought about the way Yisan’s grandfather disciplined him too and think if it is the similar way Prince Sado was disciplined, although in this drama it implies that Prince Sado’s madness was due to him being unable to see his son?
I read that the ending in the novel is a sad one and I wonder which direction the scriptwriters will take. I only hope it ends at the time they got together, without elaborating on the end of their r/s.
Discovered a korean page which has a english translation of King Jeongko’s epitaph for UiBin aka DeokIm:
“Ah! You became the Crown Princess with a strong foundation, how could you just end your life like this? This situation is so sad, tragic and pitiful. We were so close and yet you died and left me alone, it is so sad and tragic. I yearn for you to come back to life. If my desire reaches you and you are determined, you will return to earth and return to the palace. It breaks my heart.
You are the mother of Prince Munhyo. The child you gave birth to is Munhyo and my successor. Your foundation was strong so you became pregnant, but you died without giving birth.
I thought Munhyo, after passing away, was going to return to us as the third son but heaven and earth have separated us even further. There is a deep sadness and remorse in my heart, burning as if a sword has left a wound. I love you.
My heart is burning. You left me upon your death. I have finally come to terms with your death. I had wished upon heaven for my hard-earned son, Munhyo, to return to me but you left me.
I realised this after time had passed. There is no way to bring you back, no one to send away. Realising this makes me sad and remorseful. Nothing that has happened in the past compares to this sadness. I cannot go to the underworld. Thinking about you makes me remorseful and sad. You are really leaving this earth.
My love, you are kind, knowledgable, wise and smart. You are bright, just, right and know the good. You did not seek power, was polite to all and knew how to share.
When you lost Munhyo, you mourned appropriately, could not even rest, nor stop your tears. I sent you back because I worried that the sadness would affect your health and the baby you were carrying. But how fragile your life was!
I will now put all important things aside and bury you. Rest in peace by Munhyo. You will not be far away from your son’s grave, and mother and son will be side to side.”
It is so heartbreaking and also shows how deep the prince’s love is for her.
I’d like to record much thanks to Mimi (muchadoaboutlove) of TheTalkingCupboard for her notes on the Episodes 1-8 with their connection to history and the culture of the court. It makes a quick and interesting read as we follow the tale of real persons who made major contributions to their society. She gives us an idea of what was possibly going on or expected that informs the actions of the protagonists.
https://thetalkingcupboard.com/2021/11/17/the-red-sleeve-notes-and-historical-stuff/
Of the 7 books featured up to Episode 8 here are notes on 3 of them. My comments are in brackets.
@GB Unnie,
I just read what Mimi wrote on her blog! I have to check them again though!
Thank you for this! <3