In light of the drunk sex in Episode 6 in “Business Proposal” of secondary leads and the bizarre jubilation of the fangirls for their romance, I have to wonder where their brains are at.
So I’m reposting (with revisions) my old commentary entitled, “Pet Peeve #2.”
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What’s my Pet Peeve #2 in kdramas.
The drinking culture. One of my biggest pet peeves about kdramas is how the characters, especially the female leads, always end up stupid drunk.
If I were an idiot, I would think that:
a. drinking till incapacitation is normal because it’s part of their work culture 🤦♀️
NO. A lot of bad things are part of culture, (e.g., slavery, child brides, smoking) but education and enlightenment got rid of them.
b. nothing forms a bond between acquaintances or supervisor/subordinate like drunk-talk because it’s “constructive.” 😑
NO. Using drunkenness as an excuse to express a negative opinion is a cop-out. Being professional requires excellent communication skills.
c. there’s soju, makgeolli, maekju (beer), and somaek (the soju + maekju bomb) because it’s “cool.” 🤡
NO. “Cool” is the last word to describe an individual who can’t hold her/his liquor. Nuisance, clown, pest are better words.
d. the piggyback ride comes after the girl’s black-out because it’s “oh-so-romantic.” 🙄
NO. There’s a reason it’s called PIGGYback. You can put lipstick on a pig, but it still won’t be romantic.
e. drunk sex is sexy because it’s every girl’s dream to have wild, uninhibited sex. 🙅♀️
NO. Drunk sex is every girl’s nightmare. She’ll feel terrible and confused when she wakes up.
Being smart bitches, we know better and we should demand better from the screenwriters and directors.
These are NOT acceptable:
From “She Was Pretty” (2015). She’s ugly when she’s drunk.
source: sophiestops’ tumblr
From “Mr Queen” (2021). I despise this writer for using drunk sex to subvert the relationship of two male lead characters when he knows that both characters would NOT be fine with the sex when sober.
And now this.
From “Business Proposal” (2022).
In my book, this puppy-eyed guy assaulted her. He KNEW very well that she was intoxicated and didn’t know what the hell she was doing.
He had one bottle, She finished…what four? five? bottles? Her cheeks were flushed.
She wasn’t steady on her feet.
She was babbling about things she wouldn’t have said when sober.
She was slurring her words.
He knew she couldn’t stand on her own without falling down.
Her personal inhibitions were nonexistent.
Yet he had sex, NON-consensual sex, with her.
This isn’t funny at all. It’s horrifying.
What he should have done — what any gentleman would have done — was call up a female friend, like Hari, to come pick her up as quickly as possible, either at his place or at the convenience store. Meanwhile, he stays with her until she sobers up or the female friend arrives for her.
If he must bring her back to his home, she sleeps on the bed, in his room, by herself.
This drunk sex scenario didn’t have to happen.
It infuriates me that the screenwriter and director used it to move the couple’s relationship forward. The viewers are left with the impression that:
a. it’s okay that she had drunken sex that she couldn’t remember afterwards. It’s okay because “love conquers all.” 🤯
b. if a similar situation happens to them in real life, then it’s okay, too. As long as the guy is handsome, she got “lucky” or something. 🤬
An intoxicated person cannot give consent. Non-consensual sex is sexual assault.
I wish kdrama writers would stop normalizing this drunk sex.
This keeps happening because silly fangirls think there’s nothing wrong.
But I say that this binge-drinking trope in kdramas should be toned down. (Preferably eliminated, if I’m the media entertainment czar. Lol.) In the same way that producers avoid scenes depicting cigarette smoking as deterrence, or they pixelate guns, tattoos and nipples in order not to offend fragile sensibilities, they should also limit the use of binge-drinking as a plot device.
Drinking immoderately is never the correct message they want to send to their viewers, especially the young ones.
Here’s my PSA to help counteract what we just watch in Episode 6. These are my “Mommy” rules on how to drink responsibly. I gave my sons this advice when they were growing up.
Before going to the party:
1. Eat up.
Order pizza. Eat pasta. Fill up your tummy before going to the party, so alcohol isn’t the only thing sloshing in there.
2. Charge your cellphone.
Or bring a charger and extra battery. You don’t want to have a dead phone when you need to call UBER.
3. Know your limits and STICK with them.
If one glass is your limit, then stick with it. There’s no harm in asking for water and chugging on it. If you want, remember the names “Shirley Temple” (grenadine/pomegranate syrup and Sprite) or “Arnold Palmer” (iced tea and lemonade), and order them.
4. Don’t drink medicine before drinking.
Sometimes you forget that alcohol and medicine don’t mix. Don’t take medicine for your cough, cold, or headache, if you’re planning on drinking afterwards.
5. Don’t drink while depressed…
Or emotional. Obviously, you tend to drink more. But when you drown your sorrows in alcohol, you tend to end up with even more miseries afterward.
At the party:
1. Graze on snacks.
Same principle as filling up your tummy with solid. While at the party, snack up. Try to avoid the salty ones, though, because these will make you thirsty.
2. Have a designated driver.
A designated driver can’t touch alcohol. No drinking and driving. But if everybody in your party is going to drink, then arrange to take UBER home.
3. No to binge-drinking.
Just like you shouldn’t binge-watch kdramas, you shouldn’t binge-drink either. I say one glass an hour is good enough. Make it last.
4. Be careful with those fruity alcoholic drinks (coolers?)
Sometimes you consume more because they taste like juice. No. Many of them have higher content ABV.
5. Avoid the punch bowl.
Because who knows if somebody spiked it.
6. Keep an eye on your drink.
Same principle. If you leave it unattended, you don’t know if somebody has touched it and/or slipped something in it.
7. If you must play those drinking games…
then you won’t keep track of the number of drinks. Designate a buddy you can trust who’ll tackle you to the ground should you remove your clothes and dance naked on the table.
8. Squad rules.
Look after each other. If one of your friends is inebriated, it’s time for you to head home. Don’t leave your drunk friend behind.
*Note to a guy: if one of your female friends/acquaintances is drunk, escort her home but make sure you’re accompanied by another one of her FEMALE friends. This is to protect yourself from possible rape accusation. You never know….
Alcohol is really nothing to be afraid of, if you know how to respect it and yourself.
Thanks @pkml3 for laying it out here. It’s something that needed to be said loud and clear, especially for the impressionable who take their cue from entertainment, social media and the opinions of others. Pity it got included and marred our viewing pleasure.
You are a good mother, @packmule3. Those rules are very sensible.
There’s a lot of female drinking in ‘Soundtrack’ drama episode 1 as well, enough to make me wonder if the FL is an alcoholic.
Hi @Fern, yes I saw what you wrote about the FL in Soundtrack #1 and she did seem to be drunk about half of the episode (around 20 minutes out of a 40++ minutes episode LOL). Not a good example to follow.
Thank you @pm3 for laying it out here, and with good advice too. Not many people talk about it much on social media about this drunk talk troupe. I never want myself or my child to be in such a situation.
I know it is to make the character speak their deepest truths but almost EVERY drama has to have one. Really…can they do without? Is there other ways for the character to say their true feelings without being drunk? Some parts are cute but when it crosses over to the drunk sex then….honestly no. She obviously was not sober enough to consent. And in that light, SungHoon took advantage of it. I know it is a story plot…but even realistically how could he have not known she is drunk?????
Which is why as much as many are going gaga over 2nd leads, there is much about the r/s that I feel uncomfortable about.
There was a strange inconsistency too as a result of this plot device…
YS couldn’t remember what happened and was embarrassed to admit this… SH seemed entirely unperturbed that their first sexual encounter was one she had forgotten.
Thiswas inconsistent with the way he is being portrayed as a character a) that he would engage in drunk sex in the first place and b) what man would be indifferent to a woman not remembering her first night with him?
I feel like the writing has ignored the characters here and how they might behave if they behaved according to the rest of their character… if that makes sense.
OR is the writer trying to depict two people who are comfortable with ‘hoook up’ culture?? They both seem to have been smitten from the get go and not merely wanting to engage physically. So this is all a bit mixed up.
I join you on this pet peeve @PM3! Thanks for calling it out loud and clear and reposting your mommy rules on responsible drinking. I actually used your guide as discussion points with my daughter before. Will need a refresh since she will transfer to university soon.
SH knew she was drunk that’s why he followed her. Supposedly to keep her safe but apparently not from him. When he responded to the drunk confession kiss, I had a feeling it was going downhill from then. True enough, she did not remember any of it so how could she gave her consent? Not romantic at all!
I expected for him to explain that the reason she didn’t remember was because it didn’t happen. He stopped it like a gentleman before it got out of hand because he knew she was too inebriated. I couldn’t even enjoy him ripping off his glasses before the kiss because all I could think was huh??? When he responded “I’ll make you remember”.
@packmule3, Sage advice to your sons. Like you, I don’t get the drinking “culture” and agree that this trope needs to be toned down or eliminated. I first learned about the date rape drug when I was a young woman doing presentence investigations, mainly on prostitutes who used them to rob business m en at hotel bars. But later I got frat boys who actually raped women. What an eye opener!
The drunk trope is overused. 8n American culture we see it mainly in coming of age movies-for girls mainly to lose their virginity. Actually the same can be true for boys. But we a l so see the drinking culture at play in series like Sex In The City that popu.zrized the Cosmopolitan, mainly a drink at brunch(ugh!). There’s nothing like starting the day off with vodka.
Oh well, unfortunately, writers love the trope and just think of the literary who popularized The c Rou n d Table at the Algonquin Hotel.and thev”macho” guys like Hemingway. But we all know what happened to the Fitzgeralds. Sophistication=alcohol (and tobacco) NOT.
Sorry to say it’s an uphill battle. Please keep reminding us of this problem.
Same here, @birdie007!!
When he entered the apartment after buying hang-over soup, I thought he was going to clear it up with her that nothing happened to them and she didn’t have to run away like a frightened deer.
It didn’t occur to him that she was having “buyer’s remorse” after the drunk sex.
Then, when he took off his Clark Kent glasses?! Snort.
Ordinarily, I would have that “swag” sexy but the whole intro to that scene was wrong.
It’s not that YeonSeo doesn’t “remember” exactly what happened that night when they had sex. She did remember them kissing, removing clothes and kissing in bed.
To me, she can’t remember anything after that because
a. She was drunk.
b. She was mortified with herself for hooking up with this virtual stranger. She could be blocking it out.
c. Or she passed out in the middle of it.
But for this guy to not know she was drunk is simply preposterous.
For one, alcohol breath is stinky. For another, alcohol would have short-circuited her bodily sensations and impaired her response time. Plus, lubrication would have difficult. With her mind was in a hazy fog, her brain wouldn’t be able to communicate with her genitals to prepare for an orgasm.
The three most egregious aspects of this scene are:
that she could have enjoyed sex while drunk,
that he believed having sex with an intoxicated woman was appropriate.
And that the lack of contraception was a responsible and mature thing to do. It grosses me out that they had unprotected sex and exchanged body fluids with somebody they barely knew because of “love at first sight.”
Hook-up culture alright.
I’m hoping against hope that at some point the SML is going to tell her that they both started to have sex and then he stopped it because he realized it wouldn’t be consensual because she was so drunk, no matter how much they were both into each other. Please, writer, just insert this one sentence to clear things up.
Of course, he should have said it when she said she didn’t remember what happened–which makes me think that they really did proceed despite her being black-out drunk. It’s a mar on an otherwise delightful rom-com.
Thanks for writing this @Packmule3! Completely agree with you on this. Drunk sex is not cool at all and SH took advantage of the situation. When you are drunk you cannot give proper consent, period. Crazy how the scene with his ripping off his glasses saying “I’ll make sure you will never forget” is making its rounds across social media with millions of views with fangirls obsessing over how “romantic” it is. Ugh. Was hoping they would stop at the kiss but they ended up sleeping together. Lust triumphed over “love” there. If their relationship is built on shaky physical intimacy instead of real emotional intimacy it’s not going to last.
Someone pointed it out in another post (I think it was Kate) who said his line when they went hiking about “I won’t make you angry again” is immature. It really is childish. They need to learn to communicate their thoughts and feelings, not just sexual desires.
I also tired of drunk scenes in nearly every Kdrama I have watched. Is drinking and getting drunk really such a big part of Korean culture?
Having “confessions” when drunk shows lack of communication and maturity. Adults can, and do drink responsibly.
Thanks for your tips on safe drinking again. I remember you posted them before. This time I’m saving your tips for my kids when they get older.
I’m glad I wasn’t the only one completely jarred by that. I feel like they missed an opportunity for her to:
wake up, be foggy on the details of what happened, confront him and ask if he took advantage of her, listen to his explanation of how nothing happened because he stopped it, and her to be embarrassed, apologetic, and thankful for his good morals.
She should properly learn the lesson of drinking to excess alone and with strangers is stupid and dangerous. Besides, the sex couldn’t have been that great since she had to have become nauseous with all that jostling.
I’m hoping this writer is setting this storyline up alongside the main couple’s story to shine a light on how to properly start a relationship. Right now everyone seems to be enamored by the shiny and shallow and I’m counting on the writer to please (although much too late) show how this relationship is as shaky as building a house of cards, on sand.
Aaaah!! Why? why? Just by looking at the blog titles, I have a spoiler!!! And I hate spoilers! Too late now…
However, it really makes me want to watch this drama now (I downloaded the first episode), only, I haven’t finished “Fate and furries” yet.
I like this kind of situation, and even, I love it!!! And if the guy did something he shouldn’t have… it makes it even more provocative, messy, morally ambiguous. It’s really what I want to see. Never boring, surprising. Very much in line with Korea’s cultural past, very much attached to alcohol… something strange here, but which has a strong meaning there. And therefore unexpected, fresh, which does not care about the common sense of us westerners and which fits perfectly with the spirit of this country.
I still very agree with your arguments and your advices (common sens)… except the one to want to…………… eliminate that??? huh? That is so… hurtful. When you say that, I feel like walls are coming up… all around my head, in my mind. No no no, never!!! The first thing an author should do is to take a big hammer to break that kind of wall that imprisons the mind. Never that! I hope that Korean dramas will always give us plenty of scenes like that, with drunk girls, doing piggy backs, talking nonsense, even doing things they shouldn’t (and by the way, it’s just as embarrassing for a man to wake up in a woman’s bed and say… shit, I drank too much and did something stupid, why my dick is my master?!!).
I’m not a fangirl, I know something is wrong, so…. probably, I’m silly… ahahahaha… yeah, that’s probably it!!! I can be told that, I accept it easily, I have a sense of fun! Thanks for this article. I would like to catch up on this drama as soon as possible to participate in the comments… unfortunately, I have no time for anything! Even finishing episode 5 of Grid took me longer than I wanted.
Come to think of it… you once posted an article about all the negative points you find in a kdrama, which according to you, made you not want to drop the drama. I know I answered but I don’t remember what exactly. I think… my list of points. I remember that I had very few points in common and was more accepting of tons of stuff. Like, for example, you had put in your list “forced kissing is a no.” But from my side, it’s totally Ok for that. It’s the kind of thing you don’t expect, and if it’s done well (of course, it’s very important, it has to be done well) and it fits the story, I like that too. So a lot of things you can’t stand that I really like. So my reaction to your article here shouldn’t surprise you.
And @kate, one more thing to add to your point. Not only did it seem out of character for the SML, it actually confirmed his LACK OF character. He wasn’t even surprised she didn’t remember nor was he all that bothered…because he was aware she was wasted. Which makes him an asshole. The only thing that MIGHT have redeemed his character would’ve been a response like “you don’t remember? Wow, we both must’ve been more drunk than I thought because I never would’ve done that had I realized you were so drunk. I’m really really sorry that happened. We both made terrible choices, yikes. Let’s go to dinner sober and attempt to get to know each other”
@Birdie007…yes very good point. The whole conversation that should have taken place and didn’t… just a gap and a new make out session.
But – and am I wrong here though? The writer doesn’t present him as an a@@hole… Quite the opposite – he is being presented and written as a considerate, kind and loyal person for the most part in this drama.
So it is the dramatist worldview which allows for his actions – which we agree to be unacceptable outside of this particular kdrama world – to be viewed as romantic and not as not discontinuous with being a good guy. The drunk sex trope here is simply used as part of an extended comedy of clutzy cuteness to bring together two individuals who might otherwise have continued to misunderstand the interest of the other.
I would be interested to know how this all plays out in the webtoon and whether there is any remorse or whether it is just presented as a series of ‘meet cutes’ that heats up unexpectedly.
The inconsistency for me is the way he is being written as a thoroughly decent guy and allowed to behave as he does – unreflectively – without that being discordant within the world of this drama.
That must mean – getting back to hook up culture – that we are looking at a different lens being applied to what is ok – at least by the writer or the webtoon.
I would be very surprised if there are any critical lessons drawn from their drunken hook up.
And that for me is bad writing not didactically – @Packmule3 has underlined the issues there – but also in terms of character consistency. IF he is a good guy in his type of role and context + friends with the upstanding TM…it is very unlikely that he would not have any sense of the ethics of what has just happened. That is what jars most for me and suggests a big blind spot in the writing. It doesn’t ring true to life for me.
@birdie @Kate
Good points. I too want to know if they messed up the adaptation from the manhwa. On the one hand I liked the way they dramatised parts for TM and HR’s relationship, but the second leads’ interactions have spoilt the show.
@Cleo, please let us know.
I feel I have garbled my own argument!
There is the didactic issue of making drunk non-consensual sex seem romantic – no commentary, no reflection, no self-questioning by the male character involved. He just moves forward with the physical relationship and is considered steamy not sleazy.
Then, for me there is the related but separate matter of the way his character is written. This is character inconsistency. Nowhere else are we getting signals that 2ML is anything other than a decent upstanding citizen. Not having sex with a woman who is the worse for wear is Code 1 for Gentlemanly behaviour – especially if the woman is the dream girl. And yet with no explanation, our 2ML, has no qualms and seems to have had a character and ethics lobotomy here. Even hook up culture has its boundaries around non-consensual sex. Non?
That’s why I love BOD here. I too found it hard to like the second lead drunk sex. Have you watched Fight for My Way? (spoiler alert of you haven’t) Park Seo Joon character didn’t go further with Kim Ji Won’s character because she was drunk. Respect! I think that writer got it right there.
I too was hoping they didn’t do it as a plot twist but no.
I think for the second lead couple, their way of resolving conflicts is sex. When they had a fight, they just follow their physical attraction. I found it hard to like when they dressed this up as funny, or used it as plot device to give viewers something they won’t get from the main couple.
I don’t like their way to resolve conflicts. It’s very short term! With only 4 episodes left, I don’t know we will get a different direction from them. I’m in for Tae Moo and Hari really.
Yes agree @Kate, and no matter how they spin it, drunk sex not a not right and not the right plot development for 2ML. It’s not right in my view. I can only think they write it in for gimmick, a commercial reason.
Hi @Kate, good that you’ve set it out clearly. Yes. I agree on both points. That’s the problem with much entertainment that people are exposed to … the ‘decent’ guy is shown to be ‘hot’ and somehow that gives him carte blanche to do anything in the relationship line and it’s considered okay. The audience is to turn off their sense of what’s moral and decent just because the ‘hero’ is supposed to be the good, nice, handsome guy. They are supposed to find it romantic and acceptable when it isn’t. Hence the normalisation of what is wrong into being something accepted or expected. As noted here, too many are easily led to fan-girl/fan-boy about despicable behaviour.
If, on the other hand, the guy was not so ‘nice’ or not handsome… there would have been a different reception to the drunk sex.
@WEenchanteur – I hope you get to see the series and come back on this point. I agree in general with your arguments about the role of drama – to surprise and move us and take us into other spaces and places and worlds. Drama doesn’t always have to be didactic or informative.
Don’t want to sound preachy here – just thinking out loud… But I THINK the concern in this discussion is with the the K-drama world compact (is that the word?) with its audience. It is very interactive, based on the values of its community. In some ways as an outsider it seems to reflect more of a Reithian model (our British BBC in the 1950s) where educational responsibility is taken for impact on society and attitudes. If that is the case, it is hugely influential of attitudes and behaviours. The use of the same tropes over and over again could be leading impressionable younger viewers in the direction of stuff that won’t fulfill them – especially the ‘getting drunk and confessing your feelings leads to wonderful sexual and long term romantic outcomes’ trope.
The film Parasite – to take a counter example – no-one is likely to be modeling themselves on the behaviour of our characters. It is dark satire and a different relationship with the audience is set up from the outset.
My two pennies worth!
@GB – thank you- and I think you’ve developed my point further. So that’s good too!
@Kate, you’ve put the same point beautifully in words! Thank you.
Yes @kate, that’s what I was getting at…
Until this point, they’ve presented him as a kind, considerate, logical, person with a high EQ. He’s good at his job, managing TM, and seeing HaRi’s side during her deception.
But none of that matters because anyone that has non consensual sex with zero remorse is just an asshole no matter how many redeeming qualities are presented.
So when I said they proved his lack of character, I just meant they didn’t leave any gray area. Now there’s really no debate on saying well he’s good and bad, they made the character do something so irredeemable (non consensual sec with zero remorse or acknowledgment) that there’s little room to argue for his goodness.
And this is why I stopped watching after episode 6. The show depicted the second female lead as falling in love at first sight with the second male lead. She’s very attracted to him even though he keeps brushing her off. But then the show went the route of having drunk sex – which as pointed by packmule3 and many others is a truly inappropriate behavior by the SML. And the show to celebrate what happened as normal instead of like maybe having the SML feel sorry for having taken advantage of the girl and the girl to learn her lesson and not drink until she passes out.
I like the acting of the two female leads though so maybe I’ll continue watching and just pretend the drunk sex did not happen.
This discussion makes me wonder about the motive of story telling. Entertainment or an example of a cautionary tale. I’m sure the 2ML scene raised the viewership of this drama to some extent, and whoever designed the drama knew the effect and impact on the viewers. I’m not sure if the moral teaching is their priority.
It can be a point of discussion like what we are doing now to raise up this issue of the acceptance of drunk sex, and the lack of gentlemanliness of SungHoon. Though over here it is protrayed as acceptable. Or it can be a reflection of the world view of writers of this drama. Growing up, I have watched Hollywood movies that we cannot imagine happen in my Asian culture. We question if it is acceptable and at times watched in bewilderment.
@grace, I’ve watched Hollywood movies that I can’t imagine happen in my culture. –And I grew up in the USA! But I’ve come to expect that element of pushing boundaries for effect in Hollywood/western dramas. I didn’t expect it here, however, even though I’ve seen similar scenes in other Kdramas. I thought that this particular story was aiming above that. As others have said, Sung-hoon’s character development is inconsistent.
@Kate, @grace… ahhaaaa. This is the kind of tough discussion, and I wont go on and on about the comments. I want to run away from this asap!! 🙂
I see this all over the internet, people often react with morality goals, dictating that they want the drama to be this or that. That it’s not appropriate, etc. This often leads them to get upset when someone disagrees. But their opinion would lead to boring stories. Or make it into something tedious of morality. Prohibition of this or that. Obligation of this or that.
The purpose of a story is not to do that. It’s entertainment and reveal something about human nature. Of course, when I see a Park Hye Ryun drama (start-up, while you where sleeping, I hear your voice, Pinocchio), I am always enchanted by all the positive things she gives about human nature, and the way she tells how people can become happy. I don’t see it as an effort to moralize, but to reveal the soul. Just as it is done in a drama like The Penthouse, where all the characters are humanly hideous.
There is a line between fiction and reality, and it’s obvious anyone should know or learn it, instead of wanting to change the writers, the stories, the world. As if they wanted to claim for less freedom and more control on themselves and others (won’t discuss about that, but many reasons for that, like inner contradictions). Applying this kind of objective to fiction is a direct path to manipulation. A more totalitarian world where all fields of expression are circumscribed. And this for nothing because people will not adhere more, they feel that something is wrong. You don’t have to look very far where this is happening, in the West.
There is also the fundamental principle of creating a story, which opposes this. The author has much less control over the story than it seems, and the story builds itself. When the author insists too much on directing it, it increases the chances of introducing an inferior quality. Therefore, a free spirit is important (blank mind), so that the imagination can naturally express itself, and reveal what is hidden. Imposing a moral dictate on all this, or worse, doing so from the beginning of the process… is a guarantee of writing something bad.
So if someone ever comes to me and says I shouldn’t do this or that in a story… I’ll just say, don’t buy it, go elsewhere, it’s your problem, not mine.
I haven’t watched the scene in this drama, but my questions would be more practical. Was the scene exciting, well done. Does it make sense in the story. Does it fit the personality of the characters. What are the inputs and outputs of the situation. Did I enjoy it, as a simple spectator, or was it a damp squib.
And if you want to act better in the reality, just follow the good advices from Pm3. Her article help people to make difference between fiction and reality, in case they have difficulties with that.
@ Birdi007 – this is a really tricky discussion because it works on so many levels – our external viewer assessment of SML’s character and behaviour on the one hand, and how he is being depicted to us by the writer, on the other, and thirdly, the significance of this and what the writer thinks about him. I apologise if I missed your point. I hate it when people argue with things I haven’t said!
@ Grace – yes to all this. It’s making me think about motive for the way the drama is framed- what we come to drama for and what hooks us in.
@WEenchanteur — I agree in general with your angle on dramatic freedom here so much. The context for this discussion is key here and getting to your practical questions — one of the things we are discussing is precisely the extent to which drunk, non-consensual sex fits the character of the 2ML – do watch when you can and see.
A number of us are arguing that didactic issues aside it doesn’t make sense for this guy to be so comfortable with having had sex with a young woman who has drunk her way through 15 cans of soju/beer when he is sober. The reason it doesn’t make sense is that he is (outside of this relationship) the model of the loyal, upstanding, intelligent, high EQ friend and professional colleague to our hero.
Had he been a jack the lad character the behaviour would have seemed less jaring. This is about how well his character is being written.
Getting back to your point about life being messy etc if it was a surprising development – life is messy etc – we would have have seen him reflecting at the very least on what had happened.
But he doesn’t seem aware of anything being amiss – although our 2FL is embarrassed and awkward about the situation.
There are many points to raise about this – and we are teasing them out … but one argument is that this is just bad writing and sloppy depiction of a character for the sake of a dramatic and steamy encounter.
The other point that people are getting at is that for high EQ guy to engage in drunk, non-consensual sex represents something of a sea change in the writing and a backdrop of ‘hook-up culture’ values where there is no emotional intelligence in the writing because we don’t really ‘see’ this situation just the steamy qualities of it.
@Grace,
Difference of perspectives is bound to happen because we’re watching dramas from a different culture. For instance, I can’t watch lakorns (or Thai dramas) because I don’t want to see sexual violence justified as a precursor to love.
https://www.vice.com/en/article/g5ben3/thai-tv-problematic-sexual-assault-rape
I don’t like kdramas either where intense situation (like doomsday scenario, hostage crisis, or catastrophe) causes the hero and heroine to fall in love with each other. To me, that’s a version of Stockholm syndrome.
I’ve got to admit that a lot of Hollywood movies have a low bar for romance. Romance = lust. And I’m sorry you had to watch those movies when you were growing up. We were exporting our ugly values. Sigh. And it’s too bad that there wasn’t somebody to guide you on how to “process” what you were watching or validate that feeling of icky-ness you had while watching.
That’s one reason I raised this drunken sex issue. It’s NOT rocket science. For rocket science, you need an engineering degree to understand the subject. But movies and dramas are all visual. Even an illiterate can understand what they’re trying to communicate to the viewers.
Sure, the producers, directors, and writers can rationalize that they aren’t aiming for a “moral lesson.” But that’s total bullshit. The story might not start off as being moralistic in design, but what we repeatedly see in the movies or dramas plays a pivotal role in molding and influencing how we perceive the world, ourselves, our relationships, our sexuality, our morality.
More importantly, what we watch UNCRITICALLY seeps into our mindset. If it goes unchallenged, then it becomes accepted as true.
The drunken sex was one such issue. It was applauded by fangirls as if it’s something praiseworthy and cool. Are they nuts?
If we keep seeing this drunken sex over and over again, AND it doesn’t get questioned AND it gets upvotes for being romantic, then we’ll begin to think that we’re the minority and the odd one out.
ps I keep feeling I am garbling points – too many levels to this- and other BoDers are probably not arguing the same points at all nor are we all arguing from the same starting place.
My advance apologies for other people’s arguments and points that I am misrepresenting. I find the discussion fascinating and could keep on endlessly and irritatingly…
Thank you @Packmule03 – very to the point and helpful.
🙂
@Kate, BoD is such a small club. I try to keep the number of posters down because it’s easier for us to know each other, and understand where each other is coming from if we’re a small group.
This isn’t like reddit, soompi or dramabeans forums. 🙂
That way, even when we’re disagreeing, it’s just like a group of friends sitting in my front porch, discussing a book seriously, heatedly at times.
At the end of the day, we’re still friends, and we get over the disagreements as we try to look for commonality and shared opinions.
However, those who are too contentious or want to get the last word or target a particular person, I ease out.
“Ease out” is a euphemism for block.
hahaha
Thanks @Packmule3 – that’s helpful to hear!
@WEnchanteur, Your point is well taken. I just think the drunk sex scene is overused in general. In this case I don’t think the SML is a bad guy. I like him and enjoy the couple’s love scenes. I just wish think that the trope is overused.it has become shorthand and it’s probably a lazy way out. And it’s used everywhere and in most cultures. S. Korea is well known for its drinking culture. In Ireland and correct me if I’m wrong in the UK, it’s a rite of passage to get one’s first pint. Pub culture is big. In certain religions,although consuming it is not in excess, wine is a major part of certain rites. And we have a variety of national drinks, whether it be saki or vodka or ouzo. We celebrate with champagne as we christen ships. Prohibition in the US did not work. Also in the world of addiction there are some people who are predisposed to alcoholism and those who are not. @pm3 taught her son’s to drink responsibly and to watch out for drinking traps and how to be gentlemen.
We are going to see this trope because it’s a trope. I hope it, like the ever present school bullying trope is used less and is not inevitable.
A bit off topic: @Old American Lady, yes, social drinking is a large part of the U.K. culture. I remember how shocked I was to be invited by my friend’s father to come to the pub across the road immediately after the funeral of his son-in-law. It wouldn’t have happened where I grew up and where drinking had a different aspect. I’m used to this sort of thing now after living here for 20+ years.
ah yes I love the discussion here thanks @WEnchenteur and @pm3 and fellow BODs in raising these issues and bringing different views. It does help me think deeper and reflect on the dramas and movies that I watch. I agree with @WEnchenteur that it does raise the entertainment value because who wants to watch a story without conflict…even Peppa pig cartoons have some conflict in that short 5mins. I have discussed with my kids on watching critically especially when they watch anime where some story plots really don’t quite make sense. I agree @pm3 that these values can gradually infiltrate into our culture if we do not watch critically.
@packmule3, An argument can be made that in the event of a crisis such as war, people will engage in sexual activity with partners that they believe they love because they could be dead in the next minute. There is also a sense of intimacy borne by a shared experience that follows. I know that my Dad was greatly changed by his experiences in the North African and Italian campaigns in WWII and he was blown up in his tank. I can’t help but believe that I have a sibling somewhere in Italy because my Dad came home with a photo of an unknown Italian woman. I know that he loved my mother dearly but that these conflicts that are beyond our control do make for these types of reactions of momentary pleasure. It is much easier to be morally certain in quiet times.
@packmule3, The discussions here are so good and our starting points do differ. I sometimes feel like a contrarian here and struggle to keep from seeming preachy and obnoxious. My various feeds bring me to places where the fawning opportunities crowd exists. And in so many of these more public places there are bots that just scream gotcha. I thank you for this wonderful, always interesting and informative blog.
I can’t offer too much to the conversation other than I was really befuddled at trying to rationalize this relationship and how they got from point A to point B. It was like I was trying to make x=y, and no matter what value I put in for x, it never equaled y. Whereas x=plot and y=solid good logic. In other words, if the writer had x happen, then y will happen and it makes sense story-wise, writing-wise, logic-wise and moral-wise. But regardless of what the value of x was, y was the outcome, and it was never good news. (I’m not a math person, so perhaps this isn’t correct? haha) I started a list of if, then statements, but they’re listed out throughout the post and comments already.
I have to assume that because this was based on a manwha/webtoon, they decided to continue with that lighter spirit and do stuff that perhaps they put in things and didn’t worry if it made deeper sense or logic. (I also understand that this couple was pretty randy in the manga, so they may have lifted it straight from there directly.) In both cases, it doesn’t justify it, but it could explain it. But again, that’s making x=y, and if you go with that belief, that’s not saying anything good either. (In other words, let’s just go this route and not bother with deeper stuff, but what does that say about the quality of the drama content? X doesn’t equal Y.) I’ve been in discussion w/people who feel the drama is too light for them, and I’m sure these elements contribute to that feeling.
I agree with a comment on the other 2nd couple post that perhaps they’re a foil for the main couple.
Kalimera Ladies & Gent,
Although I didn’t have time to read all your comments.
I have to tell you that this plot device was used in the webtoon.
So, the Writernim and the Director followed that plotline and they have altered what happened afterwards for the better.
If this accepted or not? In my book, it isn’t.
I have to read what you have writte above.
Thanks for the info @Cleo. Please let us know what differences the Show has put in compared to the manhwa. 🙂 I’d like to think that the show makers were more thoughtful and responsible.
@GB Unnie,
I don’t remember that part really well but I think they have both been drinking and Sung Hoo asked her beforehand if Young Seo was sure about it (them sleeping together). At that time, she said yes, then in the following morning she didn’t remember and he was really hurt about it.
It took them some time in order to sort this. Cousin Jin make an appearance in between.
Their relationship started first and it was physical, but they were genuinely in love with each other. Now, I haven’t read the whole webtoon but this is what the jakkanim wrote.
@Cleopatra,
A useful rule of thumb for young people to remember is that the possibility of consensual sex is inversely proportional to the number of drinks.
The more shots/bottles/Dixie cups consumed, the less the sex is going to be with consent. A drunk person can’t consent.
I raised sons and I taught them NOT to do what SH did. The writers of the comic and script probably didn’t raise teens. 🤷♀️ They didn’t know better.
Alcohol is a date-rape drug, like quaalude, rohypnol. But cases of rape due to alcohol aren’t sensationalized like the quualude and roofies, and are most likely under-reported because the victims feel ashamed and/or guilty afterwards. Unlike the medications, which they wouldn’t knowingly ingest, they consumed the alcohol themselves. So there’s this perception that they had *asked* for assault to happen to them.
@Packmule3,
I totally agree with you.
That’s why all that drinking portrayed on kdramas for me is totally weird.
It is another to drink a glass of wine now and then. And another to end up not knowing where are you and with whom…
I still cannot forget, when I traveled abroad, the image of young ladies drinking like there was no tomorrow…
@Cleo,
It’s also clear that the screenwriters have made nothing of the problem that the webtoon at least touches on.
There are results, in other words, for this drunk sex in the webtoon – there is hurt etc and it sounds like the impact on our protagonist of this drunken encounter is more profound.
The screenwriters in our TV drama make a joke of it.
ps @Cleo – thank you for filling in the background here. Illuminating.
I have tried to find a place to read the webtoon – would you mind my asking where you access it? Perhaps you have been reading it for a while.
@packmule3, On that cautionary note, it is also possible to get alcohol poisoning. There have been lots of stories recently about frat boy hazing incidents where deaths occurred. Autopsy reports in the toxicology report section showed alcohol poisoning as contributory factors to homicide. (NOTE: over the course of my c arteries I read numerous autopsy reports as part of my research doing pre-sentence investigations. Not all homicides involve what we think of as deadly weapons)
I’m not sure if this contributes to the conversation, but in my US state of residence, there is a law about the degree someone can be held accountable for a sexual assault if the person was willingly intoxicated beforehand. Like, the victim can’t be considered “mentally incapacitated,” which would bring a higher charge, but the perp would be charged with a lesser one. In order to get that higher charge, the alcohol would need to be given without consent.
@Kate,
You are welcome! I have alread posted the link in another thread but let me find it again! I will post it in the morning, okay?
@Cleo, thank you and no rush!
@Kate,
Here : https://vinload.com/manga/bmadcc-a-business-proposal/
Thank you @Cleo!
Okay – viewpoint from a man here. When I saw the SML take advantage of the SFL while she was drunk, it showed his true colors. There is an unwritten code of conduct that men generally adhere to and not taking advantage of someone in distress is part of that. Not only does it mean you don’t have sex with drunk females, you also don’t exploit people when they are weaker than you just ’cause you can. I was really disappointed in the 2FL when after the disaster of the mountain climbing date, where their bonding went backwards, she suggests they head home for a ‘steamy evening’. Hook up culture at its trashiest.
One of the things I have appreciated about KDrama rom-coms is the proper pacing of the relationship. Kiss by episode 9, fine with me. I am concerned as Netflix, Disney and other Western media companies begin co-sponsoring Korean television series, they will begin to erode some of the values I’ve come to love and will pollute what is a fun genre with their crassness. ‘Nuff said. I do like the 1ML and 1FL’s progress, really looking forward to how this all ends in just a couple of more episodes.
@OldTimer welcome to the blog! I agree with you. I’ve had my fears as well when I saw that Western Media wants to put a finger in the kdrama pie and to keep increasing their influence. I very much fear that we are seeing the slipping away of decent, moral values as a result.
@OldTimer, you are right. That’s what I was calling using guidance for manipulation. That’s why I’m suspicious of all guidance. These companies are not just in it for the money but the propagation of ideas (More unhealthy and invasive than a random sex drinking scene). They use the Trojan horse technique. At first in an innocent way by respecting the partners. Then through the choice of contents, they finance people in Korea who are already deteriorated humanly. Then finally, they will dictate the contents. This happened in my country. And not only were the series already unwatchable mainly because of the lack of emotion and other problematic factors, but now they are polluted by objectives that have nothing to do with storytelling. The same goes for American series.
@OldTimer, WENchanteur, @Growing Beautufully, 8 respectfully disagree with your premise that it’s western media that’–s at fault. S. Korean Media is a mixed bag. The movie industry which is full of noise, violence and sex of the heterosexual and homeoerotic has some very racy examples like The Handmaiden(Kim Tae Ri), A Man and A Woman (Gong Yoo and Jeon Dojeon), The Taste of Money(Youn Yuh Jung) and Method (Park Sung woong, for wpexample.
In K Drama the drunk trope has been around for a long time-like thec2914 you Are My Destiny with Jang Nara was premised by a drunken sexual encounter that produced an unwanted pregnancy. This is a well used trope and short hand in K Dramas predating the advent of streaming, when Netflix was still mailing out CDs.
And to my old mind(after all I have been collecting social security for years) the gentleman’s code is an ideal but has never been the norm, especially in royalty(@÷÷ less Majeste where the king could sleep with any of his subject women ) or the various royal mistresses and concubines as well as gisaengs in Korean culture. Royal blood lines are loaded with illegitimate offspring. The K Drama sages are loaded with what would be deemed immoral.
I think that countries with drinking cultures are ripe for what is deemed misbehavior. An older Korean example is corporate team dinner(obligatory drinking) followed by karaoke(more obligatory drinking) and for some a trip to the hourly rate motel if no cabs are available. The culture will blame the woman, shut shame her, disparage her if she gets pregnant and is a single mother. And the extramarital affair always seems to have the other woman as the cause of the divorce when it’s 9kay for the man to think with his genitals.
8 have been watching K Dramas for about five years now and discovered them when my husbandcwas having m education issues. The web has familiarized me with netizen culture(as brutal as western fandoms and just as bonkers), the various media outlets, the award shows, the gossip rags like Dispatch and the glosses that are used to publicize talent. So much in K Drama revolves around product placement(Subway anyont). So please blame all of this stuff on the Agencies and indigenous media companies that have been selling this stuff since at least the early Hallyu wave of the nineties.
Globalism has a whole other effect like how new “American” content is being tailored to the Chinese market or where Korean content is being taken down for using Chinese costumes or for praising Japan, although the v Asian market is huge and the Dramas of one country are remade in other countries to be tailored for their own markets. Please even see what we do in the stafes: The Good Doctor is a remake of a Korean show as Allin the Family was a remake of a British one. And even internally, how many K Dramas are remakes of Webtoons and Manhasset.
I hope you consider some of these points before you rush to judgment. There are just too many variables at work here. Thank for reading my dissent.
@AOL, indeed, about Korean movies. That’s why I prefer dramas. There is less violence, but still, it is transformed into psychological reality. And it is very powerful in dramatic effect. Many makjang with harsh situations. But people like that. When Temptation of wife was hearing, the governement was thinking about to stop that, but the audience was too high.
Don’t worry, I won’t rush to your judgment. I like a quiet life and intelligent people who say what they have to say without having to argue. 😉
@WEnvhanteur,I’m happy to read your comments again too.We partially agree on the overuse of the drunk kiss “love making” stuff. They are better when they are conscious.
But on another topic with Business Proposal, the last episode was so funny with all kinds of mix ups and grandfather’s bathro issues that always involve HaRi in some way
It also had our lead couple trying to hide their relationship in the workplace and Sung Hoon getting entangled as a substitute for Tae-moo in a blind date.Of course, hijinks followed. I laughed a lot
Hope you enjoy it
@AOL, I should put this one on top of my list so. A fun rom-com would be better for me these days. Once I’ve finished my current kdrama.
Glad you enjoy the sequel of the story. It would be a stretch to drop the drama for just one situation or scene. When I think that I endured the whole season 1 of Hospital Playlist! 🙂
A real effort of will totally superhuman, 90% unwatchable. What have I done so hard in my life? I can count on the fingers of one hand. ^^
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