Thanks for the thread @pkml3. It’s only 10 episodes but has started to feel like a long haul… probably because there’s not as much dialogue and action, and the information continues unforthcoming or too sparse, while the mysteries remain. Except for the hectic sounding music, I’m not sure I can categorise this show under ‘exciting’.
With the Ghost captured, I wonder if the concept of the teleportation-time travel will be more intriguing and explained or a greater mystery because we will not be able to crack the codes of that ‘other’ technology.
The once-a-week programming doesn’t work for me. By Wednesday, I’ve forgotten where the story left off last week.
If I was writing a weekly review then it might have worked out because I’d have a cheat sheet.
I don’t like it when the writer keeps piling intrigue after intrigue after intrigue. It gives the impression that the show is dragging.
I prefer the one episode/one developed theme kind of composition.
Will wait till Ep 8 to catch up.
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
@pkml3,
This is definitely not the one theme per episode type of series. The initial mysteries remain:
1)Where the Ghost comes from/who she is/why she does what she does
2)The role(s) of SH and SB.
Now we add on:
3)The question of why the death took place… is that further impetus to changing the past?
4)Since there is prior knowledge of the future, is everything we are watching planned. How much is manipulated?
I bet there’s going to be a final plot-twist of the “incredible revelation” kind related to the Grid. I don’t know what exactly, but something like:
“Time no longer exists in the universe, where the Ghost comes from (year 2090 or so). In truth the Grid is not there to protect the earth from solar storms but to preserve the planet from the stop of time.”
So…
The drama translate very well this idea of time very slowed down, we can say almost standstill… and if we are not totally still or asleep, maybe we’ll reach the end!!
🙂
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
LOL @WE, if show parallels what the plot is supposed to do ie come to a standstill in time, most viewers would also have dropped the Show before the end, and been none the wiser! Come to think of it, a very apt analogy for if life should just stop without warning.
I like the concept of the Grid being set up for a reason other than what was believed all these years. Maybe it was a way to hold the world in a kind of stasis to slow down the process of destruction, but the subjects on this world have to remain unaware of this so that they do not destroy themselves. Something like the concept of ‘W’ where we are the manhwa characters, and not the real, players, and that we are unaware of another group who are manipulating everything.
@GB, I like your plot-twist idea. The planet is about to be destroy. Very quickly. So the Grid slow down the time, people can live years and years in the Grid while outside is the final disaster progressing seconds by seconds (the sun explodes, BROOM, collision with a small black hole). A kind of thing possible with relativity. As if the planet was at light speed/gravity, so every one get older faster than someone outside.
It’s an idea more probable than mine… I feel strongly you found it!!
Go on the internet, give the SPOILER to everyone! Spread the gospel of truth.
Make everyone angry, mad, crying!!! “Booouhhhoo, a bitch from bitchs blog gave me the SPOILER, I hate her, I hate her, I hate that blog, always the same people making everyone angry since years, cancel that!!” 🙂 🙂 🙂
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
@WE you are nothing if not entertaining!!! 😂 😝 🤣
I like your diplomacy, you roll your eyes while generating chuckles LOL. All the ideas generated by Bitches have a hint of plausibility because some of what was fiction before, has become science and fact today. And the ‘spoilers’ are the communal effort of several Bitches, since one idea triggered another and another to bring us with each new guess. 😳 🤔 😬 🤭 🙄 😁
@GB, Now we deserve to sleep until the final episode. 🥱 😴
Viva
Thanks pm3 for this thread 🙂 Now I have invested 6 episodes, I want to find out the ending. I am still waiting for the Ahh moment.
The thing is, the story hasn’t moved that much from episode 1, other than:
1.Ms Choi died.
2.The Ghost’s device links to a chip that was inside her body, without that, you can’t teleport.
3.SH wantd to go back to the past to save his parents and Ms Choi
4.SB and EJ are ex husbands and wives
5.The security guy appears in every episode
I think I will finish this for completeness. I get all writers have the best intentions. The chemical process just doesn’t come out right for this one.
Kim Man Ok is still alive and moved to AB custody.
SH kept the guns that may have shot Boss Choi to run a bullet identification check. Jong Yi went with Choi’s body to the hospital to retrieve the bullet.
Last scene has SH rushing home to check on his mother who had something injected into her by the Ghost just before she turned up at the AB.
SB decides to follow him since she’s also at AB having insisted on accompanying Kim Man Ok from the Songje Police Station.
Ghost was forced to reveal to Eo Jin that she was born in 2091 and that time does not flow.
Ghost is tied up in AB with the lab people there trying to do DNA check on her and to ‘break’ the device to see how it works. They are after the teleportation/time-travel more than anything else.
SB has put 2-and-2 together and figured out that SH is the boy but she thought he wanted revenge when he wants to go back in time to prevent his parents and Choi from dying or being sick.
Security guy still seems to be innocuous and he overheard that SH is the little boy he’d once let into the building.
The story is moving slower than the audience’s ability to piece together the missing puzzles. We already knew that SH wants revenge and/or correction of the past. We knew from the get-go that the security guy is the suspicious one.
We also knew that the Ghost gained access to SH’s mother. It wasn’t that much of a stretch to predict her scheme to kill off the mother.
But wait, has she escaped the AB’s prison cell then if she’s at SH’s house?
My guess is SH is the one who stops the time-travel in the future. The security guy must be from the future, too. His primary job is to wait and watch for the reappearance of the janitor’s boy as an adult.
Cleopatra
Kalispera,
I am glad that at least with that phrase “the time doesn’t flow”, we talked with @GB Unnie on the previous thread about what does that mean in Physics and my interpretation of the story.
The more I think about it, in this dramaverse Empedocles of Akragas was right. The Cosmos is coming into an ending in order to start over again.(I won’t post the links again. You can find it on the previous thread!)
@Packmule3, No. The Ghost went BEFORE her capture to SH’s house.
Kim Manok or BETA, I believe he is from the future as well and he is lying about his connection with the Ghost.
I want answers how the Ghost was created. I think she is an engineered Human or Hybrid but her fate is doomed. She is sick from radiation and the timetravelling the quantum field.
I think that Sae Ha and Sae Byeok are very important to our story. We need to see in what extent…
@Cleo, This makes me think that if inside the grid time flows infinitely and outside it is zero (previous title of the drama)… in this case, the question of time travel is settled. It’s not even really time travel, but pointing to a location in four-dimensional coordinates in the grid.
Cleopatra
@We,
If we make this hypothesis that means the Grid “protects” the Earth from what is happening outside? It is an interesting thought.
The problem is how are you going to explain that the Ghost really comes from the year 2091. It is time travel for her, because she is “returning” back to a previous time aka 2021. What location is exactly and how are you going to pinpoint the correct one?
@Cleo, I don’t know exactly. Maybe it’s the 2091 but inside the grid. So, it don’t change much. Grid is any amount of time but reduced to zero from outside. The time travel device is like something jumping to outside, then instantly pointing to a coordinate in the grid. It’s why when she do that, there is some weird interferences on the grid (as we saw already), and also episode 6 (or 5), guy of the Bureau say the grid have problems.
Maybe the device can’t go in the future, but only in a past before it was first activated. Or… as all the grid time is zero objectively, it’s possible to go in the future, but there is a problem, the grid don’t work in a future (so earth is destroyed), so it’s why she go in the past and try to fix it.
Then, I’m not sure about the plot that say someone from the future created the grid. It looks like not logical with my hypothesis. It would need someone first to create the grid, then as soon as it is done, time travel is possible, but only in a point in time where Grid exist.
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
We were just complaining that Grid had nothing much happening. Well Ep 7 has a lot more happening and is difficult to watch. I’m thinking I only want to FFD it and skip the disturbing part.
I also believe that Ghost is manipulating SH expertly.
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
Worst case scenarios have come to pass. Twisty, twisty.
So all the action that did not take place has been put into Ep 7?
What would we do if we had people to save and the means to go back in time? Muahahaha!
@GB, hey hey… I get the episode fast before to be spoiled.
I told it before, in ep6 topic… The ghost has a plan for SH.
Of course, she probably know the future, so she know she can do something with him.
Else… as I was saying it so complicated, just simple words:
*** The Grid is a temporal stasis field! ***
Cleopatra
Do you think it is easy to travel through Time without messing something each time? SaeHa got a lesson here.
Cleopatra
@WE,
I just had a conversation with a friend of my mine who is a Mathematician and knows pretty well Physics.
Regarding your hypothesis, I’ve got the following information when I asked him Time:
The Grid is a magnetic and protective shield from microparticles that comes from Space and the Sun and cannot by any means “stop time” within Earth vs the Universe. If our galaxy is coming into an end, then it will affect Earth as well, because it belongs to the system. The Universal Laws of Psychics are applied to the whole system aka the galaxy overall the Cosmos. Hence your hypothesis cannot be valid.
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
LOL @Cleo @WE, you know that we weren’t serious, right? We are deliberately throwing up for debate all kinds of ideas, the more implausible/impossible the better. The plot was in a standstill for 6 episodes and we wanted to come up with anything to push it along in our minds.
However thank you for asking your friend. It is good to get confirmation.
Questions, questions:
The paradox of Sae Ha. Is he both the Janitor’s son and the son of a Researcher Kim? We found out a couple of episodes ago that a boy was adopted and the surname (or the whole name?) changed.
Has Show been trolling us with flashbacks of SH remembering the death of Janitor Lee as if these are Kim Sae Ha’s memories? Actually they are not? They should be Lee Si Won’s memories?
Why does Kim Sae Ha look exactly like Kwon Su Keun?
In the original timeline, it did not mention that 2 people had been killed by the Ghost 1) the janitor and 2) Kwon Su Keun. I thought that only the janitor had died in front of Sae Ha…but now it turns out the janitor died maybe in front of another boy, named Lee Si Won. The Ghost is the same Ghost who did all the killing.
What I sort of gathered:
-When SH returned to the past, the Ghost had not yet killed anyone.
-By returning to the past he changed what happened enough that caused the Ghost to disappear in the past.
-By interrupting the Ghost in the past, he had caused the Grid to not have been created.
-He became a ghost too, and accidentally caused deaths.
-It was meeting Sae Byeok in the new timeline that made him want to go back to change history and the future again.
-Although the Ghost could incapacitate people, she killed some instead.
-SH has caused a bigger mess for the world because of what he wanted to gain from himself. I did think (don’t know if I mentioned) that he would cause the destruction of what Ghost had saved in the original timeline.
-Kim Manok was working as a cleaner or something like that, in the organisation that new future Sae Ha worked in. However in one of the news reports, it mentioned Kim Manok donating a big sum of money.
-In the new future 2021, Sae Ha was the SH of our time 2021, and replaced the original Sae Ha of the new future. I kept wondering of the actual Sae Ha would turn up and there’d be two of them!!
Seems I have to rewatch it SLOWLY!!!!
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
I was thinking that SB thinks SH is the boy who saw the janitor being killed. But she’s probably wrong.
However the Security guy felt guilty for letting in the child only for the dad to be killed, when he heard this and he too thinks SH was that boy (Lee Si Won). Out of guilt, he lets adult SH up to the 13th floor. But this causes worse consequences.
When SH went back to the past, he had an adoptive family… well to do and he was an engineer. In the present, that adoptive mother is the one who became a vegetable, and whom the Ghost killed.
Also when SH went back to the past, he met his real father, Kwon Su Keun. They look alike and are mistaken for each other. He accidentally causes his real father’s death.
What is that horrible object with long spikes in the room that people get impaled upon??? What a thing to have in a place where anyone can get hurt by it. Just falling back upon it pierces and kills a person. It should be in a place where no one ever goes!!!
@Cleo, this is an SF series, and therefore it can be made possible!!! The time of the universe is not stopped from the objective point of view. It is the time in the Grid that is accelerated to infinity compared to the universe. This requires of course that the Grid has a simulation system producing the seasons and the sun. Or a theory explaining that on earth, things seem normal. But as long as the grid creates a closed system, we can do whatever we want in it. This is Schrödinger’s cat box!
However, it seems that my hypothesis is not the one used in the drama (well, not sure)… so I’ll keep the idea for personal use if one day I need, ahah.
*** Episode 7. ***
Hard to remember at first watch. Indeed it’s a very busy episode, fast and dense. A good episode, exciting!
I rewatched, and timecoded this.
09:00 – at the moment of teleporting, SH arrives first in a kind of non-space. He can see a forest around him, but this is fragmented by transparent rectangular slabs floating in the air. I interpret this as the “outside grid”.
As this is his first trip, he has a poor grasp of the coordinate system and gets the place/time wrong. We don’t know how he decides, but the device seems to be a nerve/machine connection, causing a mental decision to be transmitted to the device, for quick use.
09:10 – He arrives in an avenue. Same type of fragmented image, with the rectangular fragments… The scriptwriter wanted to show us first an error of coordinates, then the right place with the same CGI to help us memorize it (it goes fast) and make us understand the teleportation system. After that, it will not be shown anymore to save time (and probably budget on CGI).
09:45 – A bit of confusion on the setting (a bit after, the action will not take place at the exact place where the father was killed by the Ghost), when SH comes back before the moment when his father is killed. But that’s because I forgot details from previous episodes probably.
Some shots that help to understand, SH looks at his watch 19:25, the security man arrives, etc. A flashback of his testimony. Very helpful for people who didn’t notice this erratic character. Thanks to the screenwriter!
However… The time on the watch can’t be right unless he sets it at each time jump. Was he setting it or is he just looking at it (impression I have)…
10:47 – View of the clock. 20:40. Even though the pace is very fast (a lot of events to fit in the length of the episode), you can see that the screenwriter does a great job. She even put in a SH voice-over to improve comprehension!
10:50 – An ultra short flashback focused on the schedule. 21:05. +voice-over from SH saying it. Yo!!!
11:00 – Flashback to the murder in the past. But I’m having trouble connecting where SH is (a hallway) and the murder scene. (a hall with a logo on the floor).
11:50 – Adult SH meets a child. This is not very clear. I thought it was SH as a child. But the dialogue with the janitor (I assume he’s a janitor) makes it seem like it’s the janitor’s son.
12:15 – The Ghost arrives and knocks out SH father. This is not at the scene of the previous murder. I didn’t see a specific time, but I’m guessing it’s before 9:05, at least 5-10 minutes before.
Note: I don’t know if the father is just knocked out or was killed.
12:45 – Confirmation that it is SH child. Flashback to confirm + child says “daddy”.
13:05 – The Ghost is looking for something on a computer in the guard room. An event that had been hidden from us until now, which she did before killing SH’s father. (or rather after if it was to take his badge)
14:00 – The janitor disturbs the Ghost, who acts rather strangely. Both like she knows he’s there, but keeps tapping away. Very confusing. This starts a fight as well. And the device stupidly slips out of her hands! The Ghost is really messing up… like she hasn’t seen this since the future, while acting a little like. I didn’t understand anything about the substance of this scene.
14:30 – She pushes the janitor to the floor and keeps on typing… Like he’s not there anymore when he’s about to get up. It is stupid.
On the computer screen, a very very important piece of information:
“Build a grid system”… 65% progression.
So, my theory about time travel limited to the Grid becomes shaky… It seems that the Grid doesn’t exist here yet. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding some details, like for example:
The title of the screen is “Grid Control System”. So that means that the Grid program does exist. But where does it come from? From the magnetic card that the Ghost inserted into the machine? I’m going to assume so. So maybe:
She uploads the grid program to this computer system THEN compiles it and activates it.
STOP! Actually no… She just inserts an access card (SH’s father’s), I missed the detail (I don’t know if we can see it by the way)… But later it will be confirmed. This means that the program of the grid already exists. She just changed something in it. Maybe it doesn’t work (or doesn’t work well) and she’s going to make it work by changing some lines of code.
15:00 – The janitor gets up and assaults the Ghost…. bah… necessarily! How stupid it is…
15:20 – The room contains a stake intended to kill people. It is very practical. If one day I need someone to be killed by accident in a restaurant, I’ll put a stake like that at the entrance too…
It seems to be an antenna or something like that. Maybe a device capable of emitting waves into space to build the grid (downright powerful in this case…)
16:30 – CUT!!! We don’t see the end of the scene, but we understand that SH is not happy that the janitor is dead (+ maybe his father). So he goes back in time and changes the way the events are going to take place. Takes his father’s badge to enter the place earlier at the next occurrence, and also to prevent his father from going there (probably the most important point).
17:00 – Materialization of the Ghost where SH’s father was before… and who is not there anymore. The Ghost doesn’t have time to enter… welcomed by SH!!! The Ghost is very surprised.
17:25 – Very strange atmosphere… The meeting between the two… not a word, shows the badge… He lets her in to do her job without bothering her, she is Ok but suspicious. Very good scene but hard to understand at this point, we don’t know what the Ghost knows, how she interprets the badge and the resemblance to SH, or why there is no hostility.
17:40 – The janitor goes to make his rounds. The difference with the previous occurrence, there will not be SH’s father lying on the floor. The janitor should not raise the alarm, enter the lab, and die impaled on an antenna stake.
17:55 – The Ghost continues to act as if there are no people in the room (damn, it’s so annoying!). She doesn’t care that SH is there and that he can interrupt her, she does her thing on the computer…
18:00 – Well, she finally reacts and surprise… She doesn’t know who SH is. And seems not to suspect that he also travels in the time.
18:30 – A complicated thing, very hard to understand… SH says to the Ghost, “why did you come back to kill the janitor?”. Indeed, there was the death of SH’s father in the original storyline, but I don’t remember that the murder of the janitor was mentioned as well (if I’m wrong, please tell me). So SH thinks that the Ghost came back a second time. Other details suggest it… the assault of SH’s father did not take place in the same place. In a corridor rather than in the hall.
On the other hand, this Ghost doesn’t know anything… Because certainly SH came back before. So a big temporal mess, in fact he has also reset the actions of the Ghost in the time frame, and this Ghost has never killed anyone yet.
20:15 – The Ghost understands that SH is certainly from the future (he gives him a long speech crying about his parents, etc)… And strangely, from this moment, she has a discomfort… A particularly… serious discomfort! The kind of discomfort that makes that… She will disintegrate!!! (in the continuation of the scene)
20:55 – Making the Grid work is very important! She can’t type on the keyboard anymore but transmits “0.8 point Y” to SH. Then she needs a Theta value. “-5”. Then Density…?
21:12 – Short shot on the Hall! Ah!!! No assassination here, the janitor leaves with SH child.
21:20 – The huge “what the f!uck!”… The Ghost disintegrates. WHY?!! Because she didn’t have time to transmit the Density??? But if that was it, why doesn’t SH disintegrate too?
21:50 – SH panics… Shit… density… he needs to get the value out of his asshole now! Suspense… He types, it doesn’t work… The progress bar retropedals. Error messages, STRESS! And…. CUT!!!
22:35 – Surimpose: 2021. Great… We don’t know if he managed to enter the density. It’s going to be hot to figure out now. He could also have teleported before to do it all over again. But now he’s arriving home. Weird. It sounds as if he arrives there by chance, whereas it is normally him who chose the time jump. I don’t know where he is exactly (I didn’t look at all the details to know). But a woman arrives and shouts “Aaaah”. He leaves, he’s not where he wanted to be or something has changed so he shouldn’t be there. Probably it is the old home of his parents. But in the meantime, because of the time reset, his father became rich (TV flash), so he changed his apartment.
23:10 – To be sure to mess up our brains (and assuming we can notice the details), the scriptwriter places us the GHOST walking in the street and quickly observing SH without him knowing it. (it looked like the Ghost at least)…… This drama is starting to be great!! ahaha.
23:40 – SH has some kind of vaguely electric thing on his face and his hand is reddened… Effect of the time travel radiation I guess. By the way… They are all completely stupid from the start to hold the device just in hand… (the proof when it escapes from the ghost’s hands when she fights)… They should have some sort of pouch with a rope tied around their neck AT LEAST!!!
24:00 – SH got some info I didn’t have time to understand about a company change, in short, he changes coordinates. The view on a calendar gives us June 6, 2005.
SH is looking for his mother in a factory of… I don’t know… Air conditioners?
25:20 – Just as he is about to jump out of time… Alarm siren. If we are shown this, there is an importance necessarily … BROOM stuff that blows, magnetic overload, probably the beginning of a solar storm. He comes back just a little earlier so that people have time to evacuate.
26:30 – SH looks out the window. Sort of aurora borealis, but warmer, in short, a solar storm hitting the earth. It will be VERY hot soon! No rectangular details are seen in the sky. I guess the Grid is not working! The density has not been entered.
27:20 – They are spraying themselves with water, logical, whatever it takes to survive a brief heat wave. Flash RADIO alerting the population. It says that it is difficult to know which area will be affected by the solar wind……… This smells like a scripted patch-up. Normally something like this would affect the whole earth, not just one particular area.
28:20 – Surimpose 2021. SH is still wet. We didn’t see him teleport, but since he was wet just before, we get the trick…
28:30 – Someone passes behind him… The plan insists one second too long… This looks like the ghost… ahaha.
If the Grid doesn’t work… I wonder how the world can still be whole in 2021 by the way…
29:30 – He arrives at his parents’ super villa. But mostly here, a shot on his watch. Damn! It’s upside down too. It says 19:51. But normally, if his watch has not been modified… That’s the time that was in the lab?
So refer to the scene at (09:45), where the watch said 19:25.
Everything he has done since then has been 26 minutes in his personal time. This seems consistent to me. He made quick jumps and never stayed in one place for long.
30:00 – He meets his parents… Here, there’s something I don’t understand… Like… moldy time stuff like TKEM. Normally the child SH has grown up, so there are 2 adult SH. The scene makes it look like the adult SH traveling in time replaces the adult SH who grew up normally. Where is the second adult SH? On a trip somewhere else? Or it doesn’t exist and it’s a replacement? (in which case, I’m sending rotten eggs to the writer’s head).
Then, it’s the calm moment of the episode, the rhythm slows down severely. We are bored a little inevitably … but some useful actions, he makes himself a bandage. His mother makes him drink a bowl (I’d be thirsty if I were him, so that’s cool).
35:50 – He goes to bed. WTF?! Where is the real adult SH in this timeline?! The one who should come home, walk into his room and say “Fuc!k man, who are you, what are you doing in my bed?”, followed by “OMG… but you are… how… argh… -FART”.
And the grid that doesn’t work then, what happens to it? How can all these people live on this heavenly earth in a heavenly villa?!
37:00 – It’s moldy… I really feel like SH traveler has replaced SH adult. The big car leaves with the family in it, the next morning. The housekeeper greets them. A suspicious character… I don’t like her weird dark glasses… If she is shown like this, it is necessarily suspicious…
37:25 – The car passes people with heat masks or something. Who are fighting. So the grid doesn’t work, but it doesn’t seem to have a crazy impact on the planet.
38:30 – Yeah, still… it’s doing damage. People are irradiated and burned (irradiated like that, they wouldn’t normally survive, but, see the rest…). So a big part of the population is suffering from the heat waves. Except those who have a heavenly villa. But the world has not stopped turning. And it doesn’t seem to have much impact on the buildings. The high-tech lab they visit is clean and perfect. We don’t know what they’re making here, but we’ll soon find out, anti-radiation tablets.
39:30 – Yeah!!! It’s confirmed. SH’s father found a treatment with “radioiodine” that saved the world! Well, the irradiated people.
It’s written in small letters under the family portraits. Fortunately, we are given the subtitle in big letters! Otherwise for the Korean viewers… haha, guys, you have to work your asses off to watch every little detail.
41:10 – Obviously, SH has time to live. We see him again at home. Then at the pool… The hypothesis of SH the adult traveler replacing SH the real one is confirmed… Shame! Shame! Shame! Tell me I forgot a detail that he is traveling somewhere else?!!!! Yes, but in that case, he would call to give news. And his parents would know. Shit!
42:40 – He meets the assassin… That we still don’t know what he is really for in the story and his relationship with the Ghost… He may not have killed anyone here. But we know he’s certainly a bad guy who could. He seems like a nice guy except…
43:18 – …Yeah, he’s a threatening motherf*ckers!!!
SH first pees his pants, then…he uses authority!!! Yeah man, you’re allowed, you’re the protagonist, you’ve already taken a science complex hostage with a gun, and on top of that you travel in time! The assassin checks him quickly… His predatory instincts tell him that he’s dealing with a more dangerous guy than he looks.
45:35 – SH goes to see what happened to the FL. Librarian. Her face is burned… a little less sexy than before, of course. Plus, deaf and blind. SH is going to have to fix that if he wants a little romance with her considering the face he’s making. Now I think it’s still possible, but when you travel in time, you might as well do it for the best… ^^
49:05 – A clock that says “20:30”. Back to the situation of the beginning but BEFORE (it was 20:40), SH takes the badge of his father… In his own way, SH decided to offer a bit of reconstructive surgery to everyone, especially FL. 🙂
The problem is that SH has been seen by a colleague of his father. He is a little too much in his outburst… When the guy recognizes him, he just walks away looking badass, like any hero. He doesn’t anticipate that he might meet his father next… Dude, this was not the time to play it cool in front of the camera!
Ok, the events follow logically…
50:55 – SH is typing on the computer. Just as stupid as the Ghost, he does not react when his father enters. Aggressive father, fight immediately. And ahahahahaha…. THE STAKE!!!! (how stupid is that!)
52:00 – Cliffhanger strong visually and because he kills his father but… weak in suspense, since we know that SH will simply go back in time. During the confrontation, we saw him put his hand in his pocket to try to use the time device.
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
Hi @WE, I see that you got some points I missed and I think I’ve got some points you missed.
Kwon Se Keun who looks exactly like Sae Ha (of course they are both played by Seo Kang Joon) is the REAL father of Sae Ha.
Sae Ha was adopted by a Kim family who were the rich people later.
18:30 – A complicated thing, very hard to understand… SH says to the Ghost, “why did you come back to kill the janitor?”. Indeed, there was the death of SH’s father in the original storyline, but I don’t remember that the murder of the janitor was mentioned as well (if I’m wrong, please tell me). So SH thinks that the Ghost came back a second time. Other details suggest it… the assault of SH’s father did not take place in the same place. In a corridor rather than in the hall.
I’ve a funny feeling that the happenings of the original 2021 got messed up earlier when SH went back to 1997. We were only shown that the Janitor died in the lobby. But in the second 1997 we see Kwon was knocked out in the corridor and the Janitor was impaled in the Lab.
The Ghost as far as she knows is coming fresh, for the first time to 1997 to set up the Grid program. She only knows as per her instructions (I guess it comes to her phone) that she has to take the access card of Kwon Su Keun and get the program done. Strangely she is not briefed on hiding Kwon’s unconscious body (he was still alive). If she had done that simple thing before going into the Lab, she’d have had more than enough time to complete her program and leave. The Janitor would not have stopped to enter the Lab to call for an ambulance and seen her.
Yes, it was STUPID. Show is making the Ghost seem too dumb. Yes, she should have stopped what she was doing and incapacitated the Janitor instead of ignoring him. All that impalement problem was because she didn’t stop to knock the next person out instead of struggle with them.
The child Lee Si Won sees his Janitor father impaled. It was mainly because SH kept thinking of the boy’s distress, (he had more than once, the flashback of the boy witnessing the death of his father in the lobby) that he decided to change this history.
If SH had only stopped at this stage, his father (Kwon) would have been alive and the Grid would have been completed to keep the Earth safe. Only the Janitor would have died.
@GB, I think now I made a mistake about the Boy’s father. It was the janitor one.
Because that, I wrote an error when saying that the Ghost traveled an additional time.
The thing here, it’s we get a REVELATION (crazy complicated to spot) that since the beginning… the boy in the video wasn’t SH. And the guy killed was the Janitor. But when watching these video again and again, SH was just thinking “this poor janitor was killed in the hall as my father was killed too in the corridor”.
It’s serious and great good shit from the screenwriter, but damn… high level of confusion. I don’t know if I like it or dislike it, both at the same time.
@GB… Oh! Shit again… Now you just give something that contradict something I was thinking… Ok let’s resume… In what we see, the ghost act as the first time. But, in this case, why the Janitor is killed by the Antenna and not in the lobby?!! What changed so it’s not like that? SH changed something so it happens differently? But what? His encounter with the security guard at first? So the guard wasn’t in the hall? Or his encounter with the boy? But how? There is something weird here.
@GB, no, I get it now. SH’s father wasn’t killed in the corridor (here, he was just unconscious). SH’s father was killed by SH!!! And all this time, we was thinking the ghost killed his father. Aahahahah. So good irony. Quite great. And… I was expecting that since the first episode. But didn’t see it coming in the chronological continuity. So, I’m not sure now if SH can undo that or not.
Cleopatra
Kalimera @GB Unnie,
I wanted to share the following because I don’t want any misconceptions about what I have said in the previous thread.
I don’t post anything on B.O.D. on challenging subjects, like this one, without reading an external source I need in order to be sure and to back up my hypotheses or theories. This is a habit that I have cultivated since my academia days. I need to read to understand first, in order to be sure what I thought seems valid and then write my hypothesis. In short, I use Sources to strengthen my points.
With that said, when I wrote my comment in the previous thread, I meant that the Grid is a protective shield that protects the Earth from the deterioration of our central Sun and the ramifications it could entail. IF only the phrase we heard from the Ghost is valid, aka “Time doesn’t flow.”
I love SciFi and Fantasy as genres very much, and SciFi is Science Fiction so in my case I want theories covered up from Science that I can read and give me additional information.
My favorite scifi show is Fridge and it shows a lot of things happening with a lot of science backing it up!
The reason that I said to @WEnchanteur that his hypothesis is not valid last night, not only from the theoritical approach, is that :
In Episode 7 we get to see that Newton’s Third Law of Action and Reaction is activated / happening in real time. So, Laws of Physics cannot be discarded in our hypotheses because that means that the logical part of the show won’t be easy to get. We would have questions and we do have questions, but the show after episode 7 goes to another road from what we have been seeing from the beginning.
SaeHa had his own motives and by saving his father, he altered reality.
He altered the space-time continuum. His action had a reaction. Hence Newton’s Third Law is working in this dramaverse.
SaeHa saved his father, but in the new timelime, a lot of people suffered and amongth them Sae-Byeok, who became deaf and got scarred, because the Grid was not activated. Hence his decision to go back again.
Because you are wondering about SaeHa. The Writernim trolled us.
Sae Ha was the son of the scientist Kwon Su Keun who died with from radiation, because the Ghost touched him with her device in ordre to enter the laboratory.
He was mentioned as a name and we got to see only photographs of his neck radiation marks. Nothing else.
The janitor’s arc was to fool us. All the time they were showing us about the janitor and his son. Sae Ha was not the sanitor’s son. SaeHa was not adopted. He lived with this mother who got sick after his father’s death because she had a hard life.
The Ghost killed the janitor because he was interfering when she was making the Grid. I believe just like SaeHa came back in 1997 at least 5 times, she did so twice. She came back and the janitor tried to stop her or something like that.
She had to sacrifice two people in order to save humanity. Was she right or wrong?
I guess that Sae Ha got an idea about it when he accidentally killed his own father. What is going to happen next? He has to build the Grid and to go back in his present time or before they kill Director Choi.
The thing is why do you think The Ghost “disappeared” the third time he met her? Because he altered the timeline and her birth. Action – Reaction.
@Cleo, so you think it’s like what I was considering first? The differences came because the ghost traveled twice? I was thinking that because there was a dialog from SH, saying something like “why did you came back to kill the janitor”. Now, I don’t know more about that… But get the main point.
I get it about your explanation why the Ghost desintegrate. And probably it’s that. I feel like I didn’t want it’s that. It’s the kind of circular logic I don’t like much in time travel story (back to the future like). Maybe the Ghost won’t be born in the next time line occurence. But she’s here now. These kind of thing create insolvable paradox.
I prefer logic like in Primer movie. If someone travel back and kill his father before to be born for example… Ok, there will be no father or a next self, but the traveler is here, coming from the previous timeline, and it can’t be undone. Or check the logic of Nine Time Travel, also more solid.
I feel like we enter in a mess with that. And additionnaly SH replacing SH. Damn. Sisyphus + TKEM in a more messy thing. For now the writer also avoid the situation “someone meet his previous self” (or self coming from another time travel). In one episode, Grid blow up everything!! I get the feeling to move from Scifi to fantasy at high speed.
So SH father died from radiation in first timeline?!
Ok now he die impaled. More stylish. Cartoonish even. 🙂
Cleopatra
@Wenchanteur,
This is a guess of mine, mostly because the janitor’s death was cruel. It was out of the blue on the sequence of events that happened in that night in 1997.
We can say she went back twice or it could be more. So far the show doesn’t answer to “our” questions. Instead, Episodes 6+7 are directing our attention to a philosophical aspect.
Should a person choose to do a lesser evil in order to save many more?
Is it ethical acceptable?
Can we understand why he or she did so, even though some are affected by such a decision?
To answer your question it is not a mess, but it is not clear either.
Between Sisyphus and TKEM, I have to say that Kim Eun Sook had a team of scientists in order to explain her logical assumptions of time travel.
KES backed up her ideas with Science. I didn’t have a problem with her logical explanation. I have also read on the Internet from a Physics Student, that Lee Gon’s study was full with mathematician equations that explained time travel based on Quantum Physics.
Sisyphus used the the greek myth to build up its theory of eternal reccurence as Nietzsche discussed first.
I will say more on the logic of the show when I see how they will proceed next.
This is a Work of Progress for me!
That means that those who died in the first place, must die or someone else instead in order Balance to be restored!
All this is weird… the Ghost can teleport anywhere. For example in a pharmacy to get a product that puts you to sleep. Or find a hypodermic needle gun. Why would she need to kill people, when she can do it quietly? She saves the criminal too instead of preventing his crime…
For SH, it is understandable, it is an… unfortunate accident.
For the philosophical question… everyone will answer it in their own way. We see in the drama how the characters answer it for the antagonist game. A principle seen in many stories, the protagonist and the antagonist want the same thing but not in the same way. The Ghost doesn’t hesitate to put the goal before the means. And HS wants to use a fair means. Except that no luck for him…..
TKEM, I wasn’t talking in general, but about the fact that the hero replaces himself when he comes back to the present time, while his younger self grows up normally… in an episode that sweeps this under the carpet, it must have been the second last one in memory. No explanation… we pretend nothing happened.
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
Here’s a partial recap of Episode 7 to get my head straight, however not in chronological order of the show but according to the trips SH made …
@WE I too am not happy that Writer contradicts self. In (1997 Round 1) Kwon Su Keun spoke to his young son, boy Sae Ha on the phone while adult SH was somewhere in the Institute building.
That means that SH did not replace his younger self. Two different Sae Ha’s co-existed in 1997. But in (2021 Round 3) he seems to have replaced the adult Sae Ha.
The 1997 trips
(1997 Round 0) Only the Ghost time traveled and teleported. Janitor was electrocuted-burnt to death in the lobby in front of his son. Grid was set up and fine. SH seems to have lost his father. His mother becomes comatose. He’s out to catch the Ghost to change this.
(1997 Round 1) Sae Ha went to 1997. Child SH calls his father, Kwon Su Keun. Kwon gets knocked out by Ghost. Janitor gets impaled and his son sees him dead. Grid program was at 100%.
(1997 Round 2) Sae Ha gives Kwon’s access card to Ghost. Tells Ghost his sob story. Grid program was at 70%. Ghost disintegrates. SH tries to input the right figures. Janitor and son walked out of the building and no one was killed. With this change Ghost is the one affected. Grid program reverts to 0% and the Grid is not created. In 2005 the Solar Wind caused radiation burns that affected many, including Sae Byeok.
The 2021 trips
(2021 Round 1) SH enters the wrong house. Hears of a 2021 Charity Campaign on TV. Donation made to The Lee Unnam Foundation. “Mr Kim Man Seok, the chairman of Guryu Corp. 70 million won. … (I thought it was Kim Man Ok the killer who had donated the money!!!)
(2021 Round 2) The outdoor light has a strange reddish tinge and people are covered from head to toe plus with masks to keep out the radiation from the sun. SH finds that the building is now no longer the AB, but Woonhaeng Federation. Since his face and skin are unprotected, he gets burnt just standing in the open.
(2021 Round 3) SH finds out where he lives under the name of Kwon Sae Ha. His parents are alive and they manufacture pills that removes radioactive contamination using radioiodine. He remains for several weeks since his cut where the chip was implanted has healed.
He’s relatively happy to remain there indefinitely until he sees what has happened to Sae Byeok. Only then does he check the horrific repercussions of not having the Grid. He decides to return to 1997.
The 1997 last trip in Episode 7
(1997 Round 3) Sae Ha takes the lab coat of Kwon Su Keun. It is 8:32pm. One of his father’s colleagues mistakes him for his father. His father looks for his lab coat. He raises the alarm to call security.
Kwon tries to stop SH from entering the Grid program. Janitor hears them fighting in the Lab and comes in. SH ends up killing his father on the spike that’s just waiting to impale anyone. Janitor witnesses it.
There was a 2005 trip (2005 Round 1) SH went back to check if his mother, Kim Min Seon was working at the factory. He’s happy that she isn’t. I’m guessing that something she was exposed to at that factory caused her to become bedridden and unconscious.
In the process of being in 2005, he tries to help the factory workers keep safe from the Solar Wind.
@Cleo, The reason I think she’s his adoptive mother is because his surname changed from Kwon to Kim.
(2021 Round 0) – Sae Byeok and the Security Guy made a mistake, thinking that SH was the janitor’s son. They felt bad for him and took his side in getting him to the 13th floor. He totally changed the trajectory of (2021 Round 0) because he wanted to save specific individuals. What he thought was a little change had untold repercussions and horrific consequences for the whole country/world. I guess we can apply chaos theory and the butterfly effect here.
Now the series gets interesting since SH has to be intelligent enough to reverse what he can, while taking the losses/making the sacrifices that he must.
@GB, Wonderful chrono-recap where you broke your brain. 🤯
With corrections on some details. (like SH is not yet irradied, just heat)
I feel like the situation is all clear with the clues we have.
Dispite a few annoying choices of the writer and weird way to act for characters (I’m not hard on this, sometimes it need for them to be plot-tracted)… it makes the drama more exciting with a lot to comment. A strange way to have fun.
About the Spike, I seriously think it’s comedy on purpose. 🙂 🙂 🙂
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
LOL @WE, I’ll never look at antennae or spikes in the same way again!!! My companions will wonder why I chortle when I visit gardening/hardware stores, and pass by spike fences.
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
My Agapimeni @Cleo,
I was displeased by the Show’s way of ‘lying’ or tricking us (and SB) into thinking that SH was the Janitor’s son. I recall @packmule3 twice saying that it was something that got her fed up with other shows. The PD misrepresented the drama reality by editing or by slotting in flashbacks etc to create a false narrative.
That aside, I felt that it’s interesting that decisions were made based on the fact that the child Lee Si Won was present, and more… that Si Won actually saw how his father died each time. It was such a gruesome death, that all knew it would traumatise the child. This seems to have played a role in getting the adults to do what they did.
The Security Guy regretted his past mistake of letting Janitor bring his son to work in 1997. He continues to feel bad for the son in 2021. He let his emotions dictate his decision with Sae Ha, mistakenly thinking that SH was the Janitor’s son.
SB also supported SH in going after the Ghost because she believed he was Lee Si Won. If not for her help, SH might not have been able to get in to access the Ghost and her time travel devices. (I note that in an earlier episode, SH had denied that he was the boy in the video ie he had told the truth, but SB had not believed him.)
Sae Ha himself is affected by Lee Si Won. In his first return to 1997, (1997 Round 1), he decides to re-do history to prevent Si Won’s father from dying… and doing so in front of his son.
@Cleo I agree that the philosophical question(s) will arise about the deciding for the good of the few versus for the good of the many. Can it be considered a lesser evil?
Now that SH has effectively caused the Ghost to no longer make her appearance in 1997, he’s going to have to find a way to get the Grid up.
Options:
1) SH travels to 2110 or some time when the technology is ready (Ghost said she was born in 2091?), to bring back the Ghost or another Ghost or find out how to program the Grid.
2) SH figures it out on his own, ie he becomes the new Ghost.
3) SH returns to a past before the Ghost ever appeared and stays there ie he never returns to 2021, but grows old, doing nothing to fix anything. He has to let history take its course. The only problem is that history may have been so badly changed already, there may never be a way to fix things.
I’ve a feeling that Ghost deliberately killed SH’s mother in 2021, to get him to put the chip back into her. But she miscalculated because he decided to do the time traveling himself and spoilt the Grid’s development timeline.
Cleopatra
@WE,
A possible answer to this is the 1997 mission to set up the Grid worldwide was her first mission. Hence her rigid persona. The more she has interacted with people the more she found out how to handle these things by not killing them, but by capturing them like the killer or by living them unconscious like the guard in the roof from AB.
Regarding your answer to TKEM you should find an answer I gave at the latest episode threads on TKEM about how the Hero in the ancient greek sense, aka Lee Gon was favorited by the God. Hence his memories were not affected.
For the same reason and because they sacrificed themselves both Tae Eul and Jo Young got the same treatment…. *winks*
Cleopatra
Anneyong my agapimeni @GB!
It made your head to explode to capture all those timelines right?
I didn’t have a problem with it, but thank you for writing them for all those who are going to read our conversations.
Answering your comfusion how Kwon SaeHa became Kim SaeHa. I think that SaeHa wanted revenge on the Ghost so in order to become untraceable for the Bureau, he decided to take his mother’s maternal surname.
The most weird thing is that, the Security Guy didn’t remember him at all!
I mean seriously?
You see someone in 2021 who looks exactly as a dead researcher that you knew from the past (1997) and you are not curious at all, while you are working on security, to find out who he really is? For me this, if not explained is a plothole!
SaeHa was empathetic towards the janitor’s child because at that night, both children lost their fathers. I could say it was a connection they shared, even though they’ve never met!
I think that up until now, SB was brilliant. Both SB and the Security Guy were tricked to believe, the first one because he had regrets, the second one because she truly cared for SB that he was that traumatized boy.
I agree with you that when SaeHa already told to SB that he is not that child. We should have listened better when in the same episode Director Choi went to look for that boy and couldn’t find him. It was a red herring and we were tricked!
Regarding your options, my crazy mind has got this idea:
I think that The Ghost is like a trickster Goddess.
She knew all along about Kwon / Kim SaeHa and his quest and she made him take this journey / path instead of her, in order to understand that is not easy to be in a quest to save the world, if you cannot sacrifice something instead.
How did The Ghost go to SaeHa’s home in the first place?
If she was not aware that SaeHa was looking for her – then it doesn’t make sense.
She knew that SH was looking for her and she made that video on purpose to provoke him.
The unanswered question is why the Ghost monitored both Sae Ha and Sae Byeok to start looking for her. Sae Ha couldn’t manage to do what he did if SB was not there…
I am glad we can talk about this. At last, we have got something to talk about… LOL
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
My Agapimeni Cleo, yes, so nice to have something to talk about, to ‘sink our teeth into’ so to speak and to chew on it together LOL.
The most weird thing is that, the Security Guy didn’t remember him at all!
Yes, this is curious. The only ‘excuse’ he might have is that it was 24 years earlier and the big tragedy of the Janitor’s death may have distracted him from the smaller issue of Dr Kwon being knocked out/Dr Kwon and SH looking so identical.
Actually in the (2021 Round 0) timeline, I’m only assuming that what we saw in (1997 Round 1) took place. For all we know, Dr Kwon may not have been knocked out and the Ghost got hold of his access card some other way. Anyway either it’s a plot hole or Kwon was not such a big deal to Security Guy so he does not remember him.
Same thing with Manager Choi… she never recognised SH. She also only thought of the son of the Janitor very late in the series.
Another reason why SH changed his surname is that he wanted to get into the AB to be on hand to catch the Ghost. Perhaps with the surname, Kwon, he felt he’d trigger too many memories and increase the background checks on him. Being a great hacker, he probably hid his real identity well, before applying to the AB.
I realise that we’re assuming that SH’s father died from the burns to his neck. Was it reported as there being another death, and from the same time as the Janitor’s death?
Yes, I like SB a lot. She used so much common sense, good old fashioned police work and brilliant thinking to catch Kim Man Ok. But even she fooled herself into thinking SH was Si Won. Mgr Choi not being able to find Si Won is interesting… which adult might he be? Will he turn up again?
Agree that Ghost knew in advance and all her moves with regard to SH and SB were planned. With no one else did she do the things that she did with them.
The reason you raise for getting SH to do the time travel is novel for this Show.
She knew all along about Kwon / Kim SaeHa and his quest and she made him take this journey / path instead of her, in order to understand that is not easy to be in a quest to save the world, if you cannot sacrifice something instead.
This brings in the concept of wanting to teach just 1 person something, which although not impossible, I find hard to accept.
This kind of reason involved a very big decision to allow many monumental mistakes. We have seen no clue that Ghost has any attitude of being like a mentor/sunbae who’s out to help a mentee/hoobae find his path.
At the moment, I agree that the most likely reason she got
both Sae Ha and Sae Byeok to start looking for her. Sae Ha couldn’t manage to do what he did if SB was not there…
IE. she wanted them to meet each other over searching for her and Kim Man Ok. They are meant to do something that they can only manage as a team.
Side note: Will you be able to do the ‘W’ rewatch on Saturday or the ‘Business Proposal’ rewatch tomorrow?
Cleopatra
@GB Unnie,
If you remember two episodes ago, in the 14th floor, all the items regarding The Ghost were there. Video tapes with CCTV and interviews from the incident, the autopsy reports and other things.
The Security guy couldn’t remember because it was that long, but they had taken pictures from the incident in the 1997 timelime. They should have that id card somewhere…
Yes, the 1997 incident had two victims. One of them was the scientist Kwon and the other one the janitor.
We only got to see the radiation marks in SaeHa father’s neck. It was also the only thing that Sae Byeok got to see as well in the incident files when she was searching the Police database. So, the pictures from the scene were there, but *deliberately* we didn’t see the scientist aka Kwon’s face from the 1997 incident.
Was Director Choi involved with SaeHa’s dad?
Do you remember when Dir. Choi said to Jong Yi – if I remember correctly – in the past the scientists looked down on them because they were doing secretariat work!
True about SaeHa’s changing his surname. They will propably missed the connection on the Bureau. Even though it was there somewhere, Sae Ha could erase the file!
I really like SB as well. I do hope we will get to see again in a restored 2021 timeline being a bad ass police officer again. I mean the SB we know from Episodes 1-7.
Dunno, it was just a thought, we are 3 episodes before the ending. They have to give us a logical explanation before they wrap this! IMO, SH and SB’s synergy is not random.
Sidenote: Tomorrow I won’t be able to do the rewatch. I am trying to attend on Saturday though!
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
@Cleo, OK. I look forward to reading you more and especially on Saturday!! 🙂
@Cleo… But… we’ve suspected the security guard all along and think he has his own agenda… and even that he might be an agent working for people from the future. Let’s take it another way before we get to the plot hole:
He recognizes SH from the beginning (that’s why he seems so suspicious). And this is part of the plan. He has to help SH when the time comes (when he goes back to the past). And even the Ghost encourages SH to go back to the past. The Ghost or someone else. Who sends the video to SH with the Ghost injecting his mother? At this point the Ghost is captured, so it’s not her. Security man?
However, even so, there is another problem… SH also has the information. That means… He knows that the security man is on the video, that he knew his real father. So SH also knows from the beginning that the security man should recognize him…. ahahaaa, even if we want to avoid the plot-hole, I feel like we’ll fall into it. Damn!
Why are these two guys acting like they don’t know each other?
Or maybe we need some amazing dialogue later.
– I knew it was you.
– So did I, and I knew you knew.
– I also knew you knew I knew.
– I knew it too.
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
@WE Bravo! Bravo!!! The dialogue to beat all dialogues and remove the plot hole!!! Or make it so big we all fall into it! LOLOL.
Cleopatra
@WE & @GB,
I was not suspecting the Security Guy, although he was also on my radar.
After watching Episode 7, I think that he knew that SH knew that he knew! LMAO!
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
Hi there my dear @Cleo, yes, we know what we know, and we believe the characters know who knows what they know. LOL I wonder if they know that they have acted on mistaken knowledge!!! 😅 😂 🤣 🤪
Cleopatra
@GB Unnie
L M A O !!! 😆😆😆😆😂😂😂
Yesterday a friend of mine was so that shocked that she wanted to drop it! They destroyed it she told me! I tried to calm her down by pinpointing our reaction to it: First we discussed the Law of Physics, then we discussed the Plot and in the end we decided to take it lightly. Should I even add silly? 😂😂😂
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
Sheesh… @Cleo… your friend was upset because of the twist with SH’s character?
Cleopatra
@GB
She thinks that up until Episode 6 the whole show had a meaning and with Episode 7, it was lost.
I don’t feel the same about it, but I can sympathize with her.
Mostly because in the first half there was not action. The Writernim decided that in the first part we would be acquainted with the characters more. We have no action happening at all and the viewers are guessing about them. In reality we didn’t know anything about their (true) motives.
In the second half they chose to go with that unexpected plot twist and action taking place in an accelarating pace, so let’s say we have nausea at the moment…
If the time travel use circular logic (paradox, time buble, etc). What does SH in the past change the future, so the Ghost won’t be born (could be the criminal her father, it’s why we see him in the episode, otherwise, it’s an useless scene).
As the Ghost won’t be born in the future… The ghost desintegrate… ONLY… if she desintegrate now, what is her first time travel (or one of the first)… She won’t exist, she won’t do any time travel, so she won’t be captured by the Bureau, so SH won’t get the device. SO… SH should desintegrate too, or at least, disapear because he can’t be here. This kind of time travel never work well…
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
@WE, Yes, the logic of going back into the past to change something seldom can work. We would have negated the circumstances which brought about our present. I find travel into the future much more plausible.
@Cleo, Ah, your poor disillusioned friend. I hope she can enjoy the twisty action now from Ep 7 til the end.
Viva
Hey everyone, I caught up on this. I like ep 7 better.
@GB thanks for summarising the versions. I think I got this message and thinking about @Cleo’s points. Who should die? In between versions, people are bound to die as collateral damage, not matter how many times we try. If we save someone like the janitor and SH’s father, most people are going to suffered. Even SH can’t accept that.
Really @WE, is there some romance between SB and SH? You pointed out SH’s face. I guess there is a case there. He didn’t look for Ms Choi. The first person he looked for after his parents are SB. Hmm…
I would guess the same reason for Killer Kim to stay alive. He mustn’t die in order for the bigger picture. If he dies, something must go wrong.
@WE your recap is very funny! lollol. This is indeed a plot hole. Why do they not tie the the device on the neck or strapped it more securely! haha!
Is the security guy’s existence just for allowing SH and SB enter the forbidden floors?
@Viva, I don’t know if there will be romance, but as I remember the episode: SH live quietly for a while, but it’s when he sees SB face he decide to return in the past.
Cleopatra
What an episode! I will write more tomorrow!
@WE and @GB Unnie, we got our anticipated moment “I knew (!) that I knew you from somewhere before” ! LMAO!
Cleopatra
Kalimera Everyone,
So Episode 8 brought everything back to “normal”. Before I write more let’s differentiate the timelines:
The first timeline we were shown from Episodes 1-6, let’s call it Timeline #1.1. (T.#1.1 for short.)
Τhe new one that was created after Episode 8 with some slight differences, let’s call it Timeline #1.2. (T.#1.2 for short)
Before I write my thoughts, in Timeline #1.1, AB’s major doesn’t care if he kills people as long the device is secured! *facepalm*
The first casualty was Director Choi and then Song EuJin. SaeHa gives backs to the ghost the chip to control the device and in result, the Ghost saves both SaeHa and Sae-Byeok and takes them to reality #1.2. with them both having intact the memories from the erased T.#1.1.
In Timeline #1.2:
1. The Grid is up.
2. SaeHa’s mom was not in life support, but alive and kicking.
3. SaeHa’s surname was Kwon and not Kim as in the previous timeline.
His father was awarded pusthumously for making the Grid.
Administrative Bureau still knows that the Ghost made it though and they still looking for her.
Director Choi, who Saeha mom’s calls “viper”, came and gave employment to Kwon SaeHa. Both her and EuJin are alive in T.#1.2.
4. Sae Byeok experienced the same regrests as SaeHa did when he was trying to save someone and had to kill another. She also was extremely shocked and shaken by the death of EuJin in T.#1.1.
5. Still Kim Manok killed that man and they were looking for him. In T.#1.2 he also killed that cleaning lady when he escaped his prison made by the Ghost.
Between T.#1.1 and T.#1.2, we were also given the answer to WHY the Ghost help Kim Manok. *drums roll*
Kim Manok is… the janitor’s son. None of us made the connection before!
SaeHa realized that as well, when he saw him in that alley with the burnt eye, while he was timetravelling to chit chat with the Ghost.
The mystery that we haven’t answers yet is: WHY the Ghost involved Kwon SaeHa and Jung Sae-Byeok in her quest?
As Saeha monitored his younger self and his mother after his father’s demise, it seems the Ghost did the same for Kim Manok and Kwon SaeHa. She feels regrets for altering the lives of those two kiddos. I can emphathize with her.
As for Jung Sae Byeok? Why? This is the answer we are looking for now.
P.S. How that helps @GB Unnie!
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
My Agapimeni @Cleo, thanks! How nice to see such a succinct summary of Ep 8. I find that T#1.2 has a lot to recommend it. Someone always has to die, and this time it was the Cleaner.
Yes, it seems that Kim Man Ok (named Lee Si Won as a child) was the boy who witnessed his father’s death. It was a trauma that possibly has contributed to him killing quite easily, at the slightest provocation. This, then, begs the question (again) about why the Ghost had to kill the Janitor. In what way was him being alive a threat to the Grid? The Ghost said something about the way she did it was the only way she knew how, … as if the Janitor had to die in every timeline.
If he could have lived or not been killed in front of Kim Man Ok/Lee Si Won, then the present timeline would have been different. If Kim did not go around killing, the Ghost would not have been found. Killing the Janitor in front of the son is one of the past wrongs that should be set right.
In the in between timeline, SH asks the Ghost : “What must I do? What must I do to change the outcome? You know the answer.”…”If I save someone’s life, the Grid disappears. And if I try to change that …You must know another way.”
G : “I don’t….I did it because it’s the only way I know.”
SH : “So this is it?”
Ghost disappears. SH follows her down to the road where she texts Kim Man Ok directions to hide.
G : “Don’t try to change anything.”
SH : “I teleported many times, but I’m fine. I’m talking about your damaged DNA. You’re not sick. You’re perishing.” (SH seems to have made a leap from thinking that teleporting had upset Ghost’s DNA to believing that she was dying but for another reason.)
G : “Thanks to you I got much better.” (We have to wait and see what she means by this.)
SH : “Does the janitor have to die for you to live? Then what about my father?…No, right? You just needed an ID for the lab, didn’t you?”
Ghost sighs : “That’s what I thought.” (So this may mean that she did try more than once to just get his dad’s Access Card without hurting him, but found that he had no choice but to electrocute him.)
SH : “You even burned a man to death before his child’s eyes. Do people in the future have no conscience? Don’t you feel sorry for the victims?” (We imagine that she felt sorry for Lee Si Won/Kim Man Ok and that’s why she’s saving him now.)
Ghost scoffs : “A lot of people died during the Joseon Dynasty. Is that heart-breaking too? What are you waiting for? go save those people. Only then you can call yourself conscientious.”
SH : “You wouldn’t have gone this far if it were not for the Grid. This must be to save your own skin. You’re going around ruining everything just to save yourself.” (I feel that here, SH is grasping at straws to make her reveal more. She was committed to setting up the Grid, but we do not see her taking any special care of herself. So SH’s blind accusation is probably wrong.)
G : “You’re the one ruining everything. Stay out of this.
SH witnesses how the police missed Kim Man Ok but how SH went back and got him but Ghost stopped her. The Kim Man Ok who ran up and saw SH had only one good eye. The right eye socket had the imprint of the shape of the device that SH was holding when he had accidentally hit Lee Si Won in the right eye.
He returns to May 18, 1997 once again and lets the timeline T#1.2 take place.
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
My Ad Hoc Thoughts
In the opening credits, SH is shown momentarily in a hood, looking like the Ghost, and we find now that he was the pseudo Ghost for a short time.
While the real Ghost was able to do a reset, and at the same time let SH and SB retain their memories, SH was only able to manipulate his teleporting in single sequences of time, during which he upset the order and created more of a mess than ever each time. He was not able to both save his father while also ensuring that the Grid was built.
The big difference in T#1.2 is that it seems to be generally believed that Kwon Su Keun built the Grid. So if the AB are hunting for the Ghost, do they only want her teleportation technology? Do they not realise that she has the key to the Grid?
In the ‘new’ 1997, SH tries to take over the role of the Ghost by stopping the Janitor from leaving. Ghost gets hit by the Janitor and she seems to be dissipating a bit (ashes or bits of her seemed to be floating about her). SH stopped the Janitor again, to kill him, but the Ghost manages to get up to do the killing anyway, saving SH from having to do it. She gives him a side-eyed look, knowing that he would not be able to do it.
Young Kim Man Ok/Lee Si Won looks at both SH and Ghost but it’s not clear if he saw who actually killed his father.
Out in the lobby, Lee Si Won cries and in the lab SH holds on to his dead father and cries as well. He manages to resist the urge to go back in time yet again to prevent his death. And so we have T#1.2 that continues to the new present day.
It’s touching that SH tries to reduce the bad impact of the deaths in 1997 by telling the Security Guy that none of the deaths or the boy’s trauma was his fault. He then goes to comfort his own young self to get his 9-year old self to change his attitude towards his mother. He even leaves her a brochure on seeking help for depression to encourage her to stop drinking to excess.
When he returns to his present, it is still T#1.1, but instead of seeing him implanting the chip, Eo Jin and SB seem him removing it from his arm. SB immediately understands that he had teleported and returned.
(I’m still not happy about how he always replaces his adult self but never himself as a child. That bit of logic will never be explained.)
I’m wondering when and how SH had something explosive in hand that set off the alarm in the AB. He hands something over to the Security guy. Interestingly, the T#1.2 line has changed so that Security Guy suddenly has a different past and he remembers seeing SH some over 20 years previously. SH happens to be in the same suit.
In T#1.2 SH’s mother tells him not to trust Choi unreservedly. However even in T#1.1, SH was spying on Choi, as if he already knew that she was not to be trusted. However, we do not know why SH never trusted her.
Funny scene – This episode/show is so serious and gripping that a funny scene almost seems out of character for it! Jong Yi and Eo Jin, in the car with Mgr Choi in the backseat, argue about SH doing whatever he wanted because he had Connections that got him the job. And all this time while they spoke, the Connection, Mgr Choi was listening to them with that ‘look’ on her face. LOL. She remarks that they too seemed to fear nothing.
Knowing that in T#1.1 both Choi and Eo Jin had died, SB treats them differently. While previously she’d resisted helping the AB, she now cooperates; however she retains a sample of the evidence for herself.
SB is also nicer to Eo Jin, which encourages him to be more chatty with her. While she sees to the bereaved husband of the Cleaner, Eo Jin gets food delivered to him. However it’s noteworthy that Eo Jin does not trust SB entirely, since he watched to see which way she drove after she let him off.
Kim Man Ok has nightmares after committing murder. He feels as if the Cleaner and the Ghost are looking at him accusingly. He seems to remember in his dream, that he had seen SH at the time when he was the child, Lee Si Won. He screams when he imagines Ghost attacking him, the way she attacked his father. However, as a child, he had been looking at SH while his father was being killed by Ghost.
Strange – We hear twice that SH has an uncle. We hear that this uncle told 9-year old SH’s mother that his father had been electrocuted. However mum says that SH’s uncle found it strange that it was claimed Kwon had died of over-work. So is the uncle the same person or 2 different men? Why does his mother not mention the electrocution?
I don’t know what SB is referring to when she says : “Why does someone else die every time I save someone?” – I don’t recall anyone dying because of her. The restaurant lady was knocked out but not killed. When did she save someone and another person die?
Why did SH tell young SH that the light was blue so he could cross… it is internationally a green walking man sign. Did something happen to him so that the green light appeared blue?
In the new timeline, Kim Manok have lost an eye. So why we see him with his eye ok at the end of the episode?
Else, funny: The writer anticipated our “the ghost is stupid, she could hide the body”, and then she does it in the new timeline at the start of episode. ^^
Else, it’s a mess about how the people replace themselves or not. I’m not sure what time is it when SB comes back on the worksite. Also, when SH give a letter to his mother, so she will heal from depression.
The concept of time is a bit weird. One small event (butterfly effect) is enough to change all. So, events shouldn’t happens like the first time, when the ghost and SH meet regularly in space time (scene when one eye Manok hides under the car). Or we have to accept this is a time concept where… Time always try to reproduce in the same way when possible.
Also, it’s not logical that when they come back at the same point (or almost), they don’t meet themselves when they create the grid. It should be something like that: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CII_Q2aXa-k
🙂
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
Hi @WE Thanks for that link to the clip… yes… that’s what I expected too. There should have been 2 SH’s going about in his own past timelines. What a mess it would have been. He should have seen himself when he came back.
I too wondered about the version of Kim with 1-eye. It was immediately after seeing 1-eyed Kim that SH returned one more time to 1997. This time he allowed his father to die and almost killed the Janitor (but the Ghost did it again), while young Kim Man Ok stood there and did not get hit in the eye. So this is the T#1.2 timeline with THIS Kim growing up with both his eyes in tact.
@GB, thanks, I made a memory inversion.. After watching, I put the last time return before the one-eye when it was after.
We have confirmation the SH time travel was a scam from the Ghost who made things to motivate SH to do that (fake assassination of his mother). But later, the Ghost say to him… “don’t do anything, you make things worse”.. Weird. But I have an hypothesis about that now:
Maybe the ghost just look for the best person to replace herself in the Time travel missions. So, it’s like a initiation for SH. She looks for someone enough wise to not mess with time, but still able to makes hard decisions. It’s what hapenned to SH here. Before he wanted to save some people, and in the end, he understand he can’t save everyone.
2 episodes left. Probably we’ll get some answers about all that, and the situation from the ghost come. But I don’t expect too much. And probably the writer will never give any explanation about all the time travel concept holes.
For now it’s not good Sci-Fi. Too much holes about SF concept. Still good screenwriting and investigation logic, and some nice adrenalin moments in the episodes 6, 7, 8.
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
@WE, @Cleo, my Guess … I’m tending to think that it might be a simple case of the Ghost is dying, and is looking for a successor. She may have hedged her bets by trying out both Sae Byeok and Sae Ha to see who would be the better candidate.
Where the Grid is concerned, though … no one in 2021 knows how to fix it, should it fail. Therefore it might be better that the Ghost brings in a person with the knowledge or trains SH.
The Writer has so far tackled real life topics (business or investigation) and this is her first foray into sci-fi/fantasy.
I’d like to see where the Grid is actually important to the plot, other than that it was something the Ghost built to save the Earth. As far as the rest of the story goes, the Grid could be happily ignored without it mattering at all.
Cleopatra
Kalimera @WE and @GB,
@WE, I agree with @GB Unnie, that The Ghost went back another time to erase SH’s involvement with Lee SiWon / Kim Manok. Hence, we got to see only SaeHa talking to his younger self and leaving his mother that depression leaflet.
Regarding why we are watching one version of SaeHa going back in time. It is like this version with the time travelling device overcomes all the others in the past or future. I link this with what “Sisyphus” taught us about one version / matter / energy that absorbs the other making one of everything.
I agree with you saying that The Ghost did that to test how SaeHa will react / respond to all this. I am not that sure if she wants a successor or someone to feel her regrets in what she thinks is right to do / did, in order to save humanity.
Since is a possible scenario and a viable one, we should keep it fow now.
We need to see why is Sae Byeok involved though? Why did the Ghost pick her?
Is she vital to SaeHa somehow? If they are both her successors, that would be a possible answer.
Now that I have read you, I think what we see is a gigantic time loop with the Ghost visiting and revisiting the past before she perishes.
@GB Unnie, I agree. About the Grid, noone has mustered how to make it in the first place or how to fix it.
So, should we focus on the philosophical aspects at hand?
Still, we have some questions, we want the Writernim to answer to us:
Why the Ghost’s DNA is failing? What is wrong with her?
WEnchanteur
@Cleo,
I thought of that too… I’m not sure if it works for everything, but at least in the scene at the beginning in 1997.
When SH gets here…it’s like it’s pristine from any changes made before. So it just goes back to the original scene. Except that this principle doesn’t work afterwards, he arrives in a modified future before.
Or the time device is able to choose the timeline of arrival, not just the place and time.
I don’t see how this concept possible for a single person manages to combine with someone else afterwards, which can change (or not) according to the temporal circumstances. In this episode 8, we have the impression that the Ghost and SH have become a bit friends… They meet at different times, then come back almost “together” on the situation of 1997 (even if they don’t arrive together strictly speaking).
Cleopatra
@WE,
We should call them friends. They have come to share a mere understanding.
SaeHa has realized that his father’s death is a sacrifice needed in order for humanity to be saved while installing the Grid.
I like more your thought the time device to be able to choose the timeline of arrive and not just the place and time because it strengthes what I have written in my last comment about a gigantic time loop that someone THE Ghost or/and SAEHA or/and someone else returns to the year 1997.
If that is the case, what I have written all along makes sense.
Humanity ends because our central sun becomes more unstable hence our galaxy is in problem, so the Ghost returns back in time in a time loop to live more?
Is the Ghost deteriorating because the planet ends at one point?
It is a possible scenario…
@Cleo,
I will be a bit pessimistic, and just say the % of things we get the answer at the end.
10%.
Make your bet. 🙂
Viva
Hey @Cleo @GB and @WE
Thanks for the clip @WE , that clip was funny!
What makes it complicated is that the Ghost must have went through many trials and errors to work out she must pretend to kill Seha’s mum to trigger Seha to go back. What a tiring life!!! There means there are many timelines in between erased. We saw Seha teleported at different exit points to chit chat with the Ghost. I guess we can say they were in the erased timelines, between T#1.1 and T#1.2.
I noted the Ghost can’t teleport anymore. She was dying, but she isn’t anymore. Something must have changed in T#1.2 for her to stay longer than then previous erased/replaced versions. She said thanks to Seha. We may not get all the answers, but I hope we will get this one in the remaining episodes. Someone sent the ghost messages, who would that be? Seha? SB? from the future?
The writer has successfully gave me two plot twists that I didn’t anticipate. Seha and Kim Ma-nok’s fathers. What probably confused me is Seha and Manok age difference. The actor playing Seha is 28 and the actor playing Manok is 41. In the flashback those boys looked like they are similar in age to me. Of course rough life can age Manok but may be the writer uses this to cleverly tricked me.
Put the SF concept/logic aside (too hard for the mental gymnastics to make it work, isn’t it?), if I tried to work out the message of this story, it’s probably telling us that no matter how hard we try to change history, someone has to pay the price. How to determine who should pay? Now Seha’s mum is not in the comatose state (is the writer trying to say she is as good as dead?), the cleaner died. Whose life is worth more? The poor husband has no chance to change that fate, unlike Seha. Is that the message? That the old, the one lesser knowledge, have a lesser chance to change their fates? Changing the world may sound noble, but in reality, are only the well-educated, resourceful people who can do it. Is Equality better achieved, compared to Joseon?
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
@Viva
Taking the logic of there being many timelines erased,
We saw Seha teleported at different exit points to chit chat with the Ghost. I guess we can say they were in the erased timelines, between T#1.1 and T#1.2.
I noted the Ghost can’t teleport anymore. She was dying, but she isn’t anymore. Something must have changed in T#1.2 for her to stay longer than then previous erased/replaced versions. She said thanks to Seha.
– My guess is that at a certain time, when SH took away the teleporter device from the Ghost, it affected the 1997 time and resulted in her dissipating or threatening to dissipate when SH was there. However when SH’s intention changed to deciding to return the device to her, that event of her dissipation receded in the timeline and she regained her old strength.
As long as she didn’t dissipate and had her device with her (plus the chip in her arm), she was still able to teleport.
I think that’s an interesting suggestion … the one sending messages to the Ghost might be a future SH or SB. What a loop and twist!
Viva
@GB, Ahh right. So this may be the final version, like in Sisyphus we saw the final version of their loops (if we interpret their endings that way, by the way my interpretation of Sisyphus ending has changed after watching the Red Sleeve – No more loop. TaeSul is dead to stop the loop and that was his state of mind forever).
Around timestamp 42:30 the Ghost seemingly pressed the shell looking equipment, with a red line appeared and disappeared. I interpreted as she tried to teleport but couldn’t but I am not sure. She may want to correct the cleaner’s death but unable to?
With 2 episodes left, they still have to explain:
1.Time travel
2.How to build the grid
3.Who is ghost
4.Who are the ones sending the messages
5.Why Seha said the crossing signal is blue? Which country has crossing signal blue? Is he from a different world?
6.Don’t tell me guilt is the reason why she lets him kill people?
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
@Viva
Around timestamp 42:30 the Ghost seemingly pressed the shell looking equipment, with a red line appeared and disappeared. I interpreted as she tried to teleport but couldn’t but I am not sure. She may want to correct the cleaner’s death but unable to?
Ah, I see… you interpreted the device showing red lights that disappeared with the Ghost not teleporting as she could not teleport. I interpreted it as she CHANGED HER MIND about teleporting.
She looks thoughtful, took out the device and looked at it in her hand, lets the device go dark and continues to look thoughtful. IE she did not get upset that she could not teleport, but it looked more like she decided not to change the new trajectory to get Man Ok back in her lock up. She looked at the shoe of the Cleaner that had been left behind. (Possibly it occurs to her, that this time the Cleaner dies, but if she resets events again, it will not be clear who dies).
With 2 episodes left, they still have to explain:
1.Time travel
2.How to build the grid
3.Who is ghost
4.Who are the ones sending the messages
5.Why Seha said the crossing signal is blue? Which country has crossing signal blue? Is he from a different world?
6.Don’t tell me guilt is the reason why she lets him kill people?
Wow thanks for bringing all the questions together! I believe we may only get answers for 3. and 4. So much we’d like to know but we may have to end up making our own best guesses. 😉
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
Hi @pkml3,
Pl open up a thread for the final two episodes 9 and 10.
🍪 🥛 🍪 🥛 🥐 ☕ 🍌 🍉
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
@pkml3, I trust you’re just busy and all’s well with you, since you normally respond within half a day. I kind of expected the auto-opening of a thread for Grid around 12 midnight, your time.
Catch you later!
GrowingBeautifully (GB)
Episode 9 was great. Connections fall in place and some of our questions are answered.
@Cleo, ahahaha! Me too! Not for being to much presomptuous but… I guessed some things before. Proof on the threads! lololol! I’ll comment the episode later.
As I predicted, more about family stuff than say why there is “two version of the people merging” but whatever, it was still a nice episode, just because for once, the writer chose to stop to be confusing. Just make it clear and build good mind-blowing scenes and plot-twist, that’s all!!!
Thanks for the thread @pkml3. It’s only 10 episodes but has started to feel like a long haul… probably because there’s not as much dialogue and action, and the information continues unforthcoming or too sparse, while the mysteries remain. Except for the hectic sounding music, I’m not sure I can categorise this show under ‘exciting’.
With the Ghost captured, I wonder if the concept of the teleportation-time travel will be more intriguing and explained or a greater mystery because we will not be able to crack the codes of that ‘other’ technology.
The ghost has been captured?
The once-a-week programming doesn’t work for me. By Wednesday, I’ve forgotten where the story left off last week.
If I was writing a weekly review then it might have worked out because I’d have a cheat sheet.
I don’t like it when the writer keeps piling intrigue after intrigue after intrigue. It gives the impression that the show is dragging.
I prefer the one episode/one developed theme kind of composition.
Will wait till Ep 8 to catch up.
@pkml3,
This is definitely not the one theme per episode type of series. The initial mysteries remain:
1)Where the Ghost comes from/who she is/why she does what she does
2)The role(s) of SH and SB.
Now we add on:
3)The question of why the death took place… is that further impetus to changing the past?
4)Since there is prior knowledge of the future, is everything we are watching planned. How much is manipulated?
And the biggie: What is this Show saying to us?
I bet there’s going to be a final plot-twist of the “incredible revelation” kind related to the Grid. I don’t know what exactly, but something like:
“Time no longer exists in the universe, where the Ghost comes from (year 2090 or so). In truth the Grid is not there to protect the earth from solar storms but to preserve the planet from the stop of time.”
So…
The drama translate very well this idea of time very slowed down, we can say almost standstill… and if we are not totally still or asleep, maybe we’ll reach the end!!
🙂
LOL @WE, if show parallels what the plot is supposed to do ie come to a standstill in time, most viewers would also have dropped the Show before the end, and been none the wiser! Come to think of it, a very apt analogy for if life should just stop without warning.
I like the concept of the Grid being set up for a reason other than what was believed all these years. Maybe it was a way to hold the world in a kind of stasis to slow down the process of destruction, but the subjects on this world have to remain unaware of this so that they do not destroy themselves. Something like the concept of ‘W’ where we are the manhwa characters, and not the real, players, and that we are unaware of another group who are manipulating everything.
@GB, I like your plot-twist idea. The planet is about to be destroy. Very quickly. So the Grid slow down the time, people can live years and years in the Grid while outside is the final disaster progressing seconds by seconds (the sun explodes, BROOM, collision with a small black hole). A kind of thing possible with relativity. As if the planet was at light speed/gravity, so every one get older faster than someone outside.
It’s an idea more probable than mine… I feel strongly you found it!!
Go on the internet, give the SPOILER to everyone! Spread the gospel of truth.
Make everyone angry, mad, crying!!! “Booouhhhoo, a bitch from bitchs blog gave me the SPOILER, I hate her, I hate her, I hate that blog, always the same people making everyone angry since years, cancel that!!” 🙂 🙂 🙂
@WE you are nothing if not entertaining!!! 😂 😝 🤣
I like your diplomacy, you roll your eyes while generating chuckles LOL. All the ideas generated by Bitches have a hint of plausibility because some of what was fiction before, has become science and fact today. And the ‘spoilers’ are the communal effort of several Bitches, since one idea triggered another and another to bring us with each new guess. 😳 🤔 😬 🤭 🙄 😁
@GB, Now we deserve to sleep until the final episode. 🥱 😴
Thanks pm3 for this thread 🙂 Now I have invested 6 episodes, I want to find out the ending. I am still waiting for the Ahh moment.
The thing is, the story hasn’t moved that much from episode 1, other than:
1.Ms Choi died.
2.The Ghost’s device links to a chip that was inside her body, without that, you can’t teleport.
3.SH wantd to go back to the past to save his parents and Ms Choi
4.SB and EJ are ex husbands and wives
5.The security guy appears in every episode
I think I will finish this for completeness. I get all writers have the best intentions. The chemical process just doesn’t come out right for this one.
What about Kim Manok? Is he still alive?
@pkml3
*SPOILERS for Episode 6 if you want to read them*
Kim Man Ok is still alive and moved to AB custody.
SH kept the guns that may have shot Boss Choi to run a bullet identification check. Jong Yi went with Choi’s body to the hospital to retrieve the bullet.
Last scene has SH rushing home to check on his mother who had something injected into her by the Ghost just before she turned up at the AB.
SB decides to follow him since she’s also at AB having insisted on accompanying Kim Man Ok from the Songje Police Station.
Ghost was forced to reveal to Eo Jin that she was born in 2091 and that time does not flow.
Ghost is tied up in AB with the lab people there trying to do DNA check on her and to ‘break’ the device to see how it works. They are after the teleportation/time-travel more than anything else.
SB has put 2-and-2 together and figured out that SH is the boy but she thought he wanted revenge when he wants to go back in time to prevent his parents and Choi from dying or being sick.
Security guy still seems to be innocuous and he overheard that SH is the little boy he’d once let into the building.
Ahhh. Thanks, @GB.
The story is moving slower than the audience’s ability to piece together the missing puzzles. We already knew that SH wants revenge and/or correction of the past. We knew from the get-go that the security guy is the suspicious one.
We also knew that the Ghost gained access to SH’s mother. It wasn’t that much of a stretch to predict her scheme to kill off the mother.
But wait, has she escaped the AB’s prison cell then if she’s at SH’s house?
My guess is SH is the one who stops the time-travel in the future. The security guy must be from the future, too. His primary job is to wait and watch for the reappearance of the janitor’s boy as an adult.
Kalispera,
I am glad that at least with that phrase “the time doesn’t flow”, we talked with @GB Unnie on the previous thread about what does that mean in Physics and my interpretation of the story.
The more I think about it, in this dramaverse Empedocles of Akragas was right. The Cosmos is coming into an ending in order to start over again.(I won’t post the links again. You can find it on the previous thread!)
@Packmule3, No. The Ghost went BEFORE her capture to SH’s house.
Kim Manok or BETA, I believe he is from the future as well and he is lying about his connection with the Ghost.
I want answers how the Ghost was created. I think she is an engineered Human or Hybrid but her fate is doomed. She is sick from radiation and the timetravelling the quantum field.
I think that Sae Ha and Sae Byeok are very important to our story. We need to see in what extent…
@Cleo, This makes me think that if inside the grid time flows infinitely and outside it is zero (previous title of the drama)… in this case, the question of time travel is settled. It’s not even really time travel, but pointing to a location in four-dimensional coordinates in the grid.
@We,
If we make this hypothesis that means the Grid “protects” the Earth from what is happening outside? It is an interesting thought.
The problem is how are you going to explain that the Ghost really comes from the year 2091. It is time travel for her, because she is “returning” back to a previous time aka 2021. What location is exactly and how are you going to pinpoint the correct one?
@Cleo, I don’t know exactly. Maybe it’s the 2091 but inside the grid. So, it don’t change much. Grid is any amount of time but reduced to zero from outside. The time travel device is like something jumping to outside, then instantly pointing to a coordinate in the grid. It’s why when she do that, there is some weird interferences on the grid (as we saw already), and also episode 6 (or 5), guy of the Bureau say the grid have problems.
Maybe the device can’t go in the future, but only in a past before it was first activated. Or… as all the grid time is zero objectively, it’s possible to go in the future, but there is a problem, the grid don’t work in a future (so earth is destroyed), so it’s why she go in the past and try to fix it.
Then, I’m not sure about the plot that say someone from the future created the grid. It looks like not logical with my hypothesis. It would need someone first to create the grid, then as soon as it is done, time travel is possible, but only in a point in time where Grid exist.
We were just complaining that Grid had nothing much happening. Well Ep 7 has a lot more happening and is difficult to watch. I’m thinking I only want to FFD it and skip the disturbing part.
I also believe that Ghost is manipulating SH expertly.
Worst case scenarios have come to pass. Twisty, twisty.
So all the action that did not take place has been put into Ep 7?
What would we do if we had people to save and the means to go back in time? Muahahaha!
@GB, hey hey… I get the episode fast before to be spoiled.
I told it before, in ep6 topic… The ghost has a plan for SH.
Of course, she probably know the future, so she know she can do something with him.
Else… as I was saying it so complicated, just simple words:
*** The Grid is a temporal stasis field! ***
Do you think it is easy to travel through Time without messing something each time? SaeHa got a lesson here.
@WE,
I just had a conversation with a friend of my mine who is a Mathematician and knows pretty well Physics.
Regarding your hypothesis, I’ve got the following information when I asked him Time:
The Grid is a magnetic and protective shield from microparticles that comes from Space and the Sun and cannot by any means “stop time” within Earth vs the Universe. If our galaxy is coming into an end, then it will affect Earth as well, because it belongs to the system. The Universal Laws of Psychics are applied to the whole system aka the galaxy overall the Cosmos. Hence your hypothesis cannot be valid.
LOL @Cleo @WE, you know that we weren’t serious, right? We are deliberately throwing up for debate all kinds of ideas, the more implausible/impossible the better. The plot was in a standstill for 6 episodes and we wanted to come up with anything to push it along in our minds.
However thank you for asking your friend. It is good to get confirmation.
Questions, questions:
The paradox of Sae Ha. Is he both the Janitor’s son and the son of a Researcher Kim? We found out a couple of episodes ago that a boy was adopted and the surname (or the whole name?) changed.
Here’s the Asianwiki character chart that seems to show 2 separate boys:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X98I1swv_dG6jGbg0w_ensJkpIP_6bjV/view?usp=sharing
Has Show been trolling us with flashbacks of SH remembering the death of Janitor Lee as if these are Kim Sae Ha’s memories? Actually they are not? They should be Lee Si Won’s memories?
Why does Kim Sae Ha look exactly like Kwon Su Keun?
In the original timeline, it did not mention that 2 people had been killed by the Ghost 1) the janitor and 2) Kwon Su Keun. I thought that only the janitor had died in front of Sae Ha…but now it turns out the janitor died maybe in front of another boy, named Lee Si Won. The Ghost is the same Ghost who did all the killing.
What I sort of gathered:
-When SH returned to the past, the Ghost had not yet killed anyone.
-By returning to the past he changed what happened enough that caused the Ghost to disappear in the past.
-By interrupting the Ghost in the past, he had caused the Grid to not have been created.
-He became a ghost too, and accidentally caused deaths.
-It was meeting Sae Byeok in the new timeline that made him want to go back to change history and the future again.
-Although the Ghost could incapacitate people, she killed some instead.
-SH has caused a bigger mess for the world because of what he wanted to gain from himself. I did think (don’t know if I mentioned) that he would cause the destruction of what Ghost had saved in the original timeline.
-Kim Manok was working as a cleaner or something like that, in the organisation that new future Sae Ha worked in. However in one of the news reports, it mentioned Kim Manok donating a big sum of money.
-In the new future 2021, Sae Ha was the SH of our time 2021, and replaced the original Sae Ha of the new future. I kept wondering of the actual Sae Ha would turn up and there’d be two of them!!
Seems I have to rewatch it SLOWLY!!!!
I was thinking that SB thinks SH is the boy who saw the janitor being killed. But she’s probably wrong.
However the Security guy felt guilty for letting in the child only for the dad to be killed, when he heard this and he too thinks SH was that boy (Lee Si Won). Out of guilt, he lets adult SH up to the 13th floor. But this causes worse consequences.
When SH went back to the past, he had an adoptive family… well to do and he was an engineer. In the present, that adoptive mother is the one who became a vegetable, and whom the Ghost killed.
Also when SH went back to the past, he met his real father, Kwon Su Keun. They look alike and are mistaken for each other. He accidentally causes his real father’s death.
What is that horrible object with long spikes in the room that people get impaled upon??? What a thing to have in a place where anyone can get hurt by it. Just falling back upon it pierces and kills a person. It should be in a place where no one ever goes!!!
@Cleo, this is an SF series, and therefore it can be made possible!!! The time of the universe is not stopped from the objective point of view. It is the time in the Grid that is accelerated to infinity compared to the universe. This requires of course that the Grid has a simulation system producing the seasons and the sun. Or a theory explaining that on earth, things seem normal. But as long as the grid creates a closed system, we can do whatever we want in it. This is Schrödinger’s cat box!
However, it seems that my hypothesis is not the one used in the drama (well, not sure)… so I’ll keep the idea for personal use if one day I need, ahah.
*** Episode 7. ***
Hard to remember at first watch. Indeed it’s a very busy episode, fast and dense. A good episode, exciting!
I rewatched, and timecoded this.
09:00 – at the moment of teleporting, SH arrives first in a kind of non-space. He can see a forest around him, but this is fragmented by transparent rectangular slabs floating in the air. I interpret this as the “outside grid”.
As this is his first trip, he has a poor grasp of the coordinate system and gets the place/time wrong. We don’t know how he decides, but the device seems to be a nerve/machine connection, causing a mental decision to be transmitted to the device, for quick use.
09:10 – He arrives in an avenue. Same type of fragmented image, with the rectangular fragments… The scriptwriter wanted to show us first an error of coordinates, then the right place with the same CGI to help us memorize it (it goes fast) and make us understand the teleportation system. After that, it will not be shown anymore to save time (and probably budget on CGI).
09:45 – A bit of confusion on the setting (a bit after, the action will not take place at the exact place where the father was killed by the Ghost), when SH comes back before the moment when his father is killed. But that’s because I forgot details from previous episodes probably.
Some shots that help to understand, SH looks at his watch 19:25, the security man arrives, etc. A flashback of his testimony. Very helpful for people who didn’t notice this erratic character. Thanks to the screenwriter!
However… The time on the watch can’t be right unless he sets it at each time jump. Was he setting it or is he just looking at it (impression I have)…
10:47 – View of the clock. 20:40. Even though the pace is very fast (a lot of events to fit in the length of the episode), you can see that the screenwriter does a great job. She even put in a SH voice-over to improve comprehension!
10:50 – An ultra short flashback focused on the schedule. 21:05. +voice-over from SH saying it. Yo!!!
11:00 – Flashback to the murder in the past. But I’m having trouble connecting where SH is (a hallway) and the murder scene. (a hall with a logo on the floor).
11:50 – Adult SH meets a child. This is not very clear. I thought it was SH as a child. But the dialogue with the janitor (I assume he’s a janitor) makes it seem like it’s the janitor’s son.
12:15 – The Ghost arrives and knocks out SH father. This is not at the scene of the previous murder. I didn’t see a specific time, but I’m guessing it’s before 9:05, at least 5-10 minutes before.
Note: I don’t know if the father is just knocked out or was killed.
12:45 – Confirmation that it is SH child. Flashback to confirm + child says “daddy”.
13:05 – The Ghost is looking for something on a computer in the guard room. An event that had been hidden from us until now, which she did before killing SH’s father. (or rather after if it was to take his badge)
14:00 – The janitor disturbs the Ghost, who acts rather strangely. Both like she knows he’s there, but keeps tapping away. Very confusing. This starts a fight as well. And the device stupidly slips out of her hands! The Ghost is really messing up… like she hasn’t seen this since the future, while acting a little like. I didn’t understand anything about the substance of this scene.
14:30 – She pushes the janitor to the floor and keeps on typing… Like he’s not there anymore when he’s about to get up. It is stupid.
On the computer screen, a very very important piece of information:
“Build a grid system”… 65% progression.
So, my theory about time travel limited to the Grid becomes shaky… It seems that the Grid doesn’t exist here yet. Or maybe I’m misunderstanding some details, like for example:
The title of the screen is “Grid Control System”. So that means that the Grid program does exist. But where does it come from? From the magnetic card that the Ghost inserted into the machine? I’m going to assume so. So maybe:
She uploads the grid program to this computer system THEN compiles it and activates it.
STOP! Actually no… She just inserts an access card (SH’s father’s), I missed the detail (I don’t know if we can see it by the way)… But later it will be confirmed. This means that the program of the grid already exists. She just changed something in it. Maybe it doesn’t work (or doesn’t work well) and she’s going to make it work by changing some lines of code.
15:00 – The janitor gets up and assaults the Ghost…. bah… necessarily! How stupid it is…
15:20 – The room contains a stake intended to kill people. It is very practical. If one day I need someone to be killed by accident in a restaurant, I’ll put a stake like that at the entrance too…
It seems to be an antenna or something like that. Maybe a device capable of emitting waves into space to build the grid (downright powerful in this case…)
16:30 – CUT!!! We don’t see the end of the scene, but we understand that SH is not happy that the janitor is dead (+ maybe his father). So he goes back in time and changes the way the events are going to take place. Takes his father’s badge to enter the place earlier at the next occurrence, and also to prevent his father from going there (probably the most important point).
17:00 – Materialization of the Ghost where SH’s father was before… and who is not there anymore. The Ghost doesn’t have time to enter… welcomed by SH!!! The Ghost is very surprised.
17:25 – Very strange atmosphere… The meeting between the two… not a word, shows the badge… He lets her in to do her job without bothering her, she is Ok but suspicious. Very good scene but hard to understand at this point, we don’t know what the Ghost knows, how she interprets the badge and the resemblance to SH, or why there is no hostility.
17:40 – The janitor goes to make his rounds. The difference with the previous occurrence, there will not be SH’s father lying on the floor. The janitor should not raise the alarm, enter the lab, and die impaled on an antenna stake.
17:55 – The Ghost continues to act as if there are no people in the room (damn, it’s so annoying!). She doesn’t care that SH is there and that he can interrupt her, she does her thing on the computer…
18:00 – Well, she finally reacts and surprise… She doesn’t know who SH is. And seems not to suspect that he also travels in the time.
18:30 – A complicated thing, very hard to understand… SH says to the Ghost, “why did you come back to kill the janitor?”. Indeed, there was the death of SH’s father in the original storyline, but I don’t remember that the murder of the janitor was mentioned as well (if I’m wrong, please tell me). So SH thinks that the Ghost came back a second time. Other details suggest it… the assault of SH’s father did not take place in the same place. In a corridor rather than in the hall.
On the other hand, this Ghost doesn’t know anything… Because certainly SH came back before. So a big temporal mess, in fact he has also reset the actions of the Ghost in the time frame, and this Ghost has never killed anyone yet.
20:15 – The Ghost understands that SH is certainly from the future (he gives him a long speech crying about his parents, etc)… And strangely, from this moment, she has a discomfort… A particularly… serious discomfort! The kind of discomfort that makes that… She will disintegrate!!! (in the continuation of the scene)
20:55 – Making the Grid work is very important! She can’t type on the keyboard anymore but transmits “0.8 point Y” to SH. Then she needs a Theta value. “-5”. Then Density…?
21:12 – Short shot on the Hall! Ah!!! No assassination here, the janitor leaves with SH child.
21:20 – The huge “what the f!uck!”… The Ghost disintegrates. WHY?!! Because she didn’t have time to transmit the Density??? But if that was it, why doesn’t SH disintegrate too?
21:50 – SH panics… Shit… density… he needs to get the value out of his asshole now! Suspense… He types, it doesn’t work… The progress bar retropedals. Error messages, STRESS! And…. CUT!!!
22:35 – Surimpose: 2021. Great… We don’t know if he managed to enter the density. It’s going to be hot to figure out now. He could also have teleported before to do it all over again. But now he’s arriving home. Weird. It sounds as if he arrives there by chance, whereas it is normally him who chose the time jump. I don’t know where he is exactly (I didn’t look at all the details to know). But a woman arrives and shouts “Aaaah”. He leaves, he’s not where he wanted to be or something has changed so he shouldn’t be there. Probably it is the old home of his parents. But in the meantime, because of the time reset, his father became rich (TV flash), so he changed his apartment.
23:10 – To be sure to mess up our brains (and assuming we can notice the details), the scriptwriter places us the GHOST walking in the street and quickly observing SH without him knowing it. (it looked like the Ghost at least)…… This drama is starting to be great!! ahaha.
23:40 – SH has some kind of vaguely electric thing on his face and his hand is reddened… Effect of the time travel radiation I guess. By the way… They are all completely stupid from the start to hold the device just in hand… (the proof when it escapes from the ghost’s hands when she fights)… They should have some sort of pouch with a rope tied around their neck AT LEAST!!!
24:00 – SH got some info I didn’t have time to understand about a company change, in short, he changes coordinates. The view on a calendar gives us June 6, 2005.
SH is looking for his mother in a factory of… I don’t know… Air conditioners?
25:20 – Just as he is about to jump out of time… Alarm siren. If we are shown this, there is an importance necessarily … BROOM stuff that blows, magnetic overload, probably the beginning of a solar storm. He comes back just a little earlier so that people have time to evacuate.
26:30 – SH looks out the window. Sort of aurora borealis, but warmer, in short, a solar storm hitting the earth. It will be VERY hot soon! No rectangular details are seen in the sky. I guess the Grid is not working! The density has not been entered.
27:20 – They are spraying themselves with water, logical, whatever it takes to survive a brief heat wave. Flash RADIO alerting the population. It says that it is difficult to know which area will be affected by the solar wind……… This smells like a scripted patch-up. Normally something like this would affect the whole earth, not just one particular area.
28:20 – Surimpose 2021. SH is still wet. We didn’t see him teleport, but since he was wet just before, we get the trick…
28:30 – Someone passes behind him… The plan insists one second too long… This looks like the ghost… ahaha.
If the Grid doesn’t work… I wonder how the world can still be whole in 2021 by the way…
29:30 – He arrives at his parents’ super villa. But mostly here, a shot on his watch. Damn! It’s upside down too. It says 19:51. But normally, if his watch has not been modified… That’s the time that was in the lab?
So refer to the scene at (09:45), where the watch said 19:25.
Everything he has done since then has been 26 minutes in his personal time. This seems consistent to me. He made quick jumps and never stayed in one place for long.
30:00 – He meets his parents… Here, there’s something I don’t understand… Like… moldy time stuff like TKEM. Normally the child SH has grown up, so there are 2 adult SH. The scene makes it look like the adult SH traveling in time replaces the adult SH who grew up normally. Where is the second adult SH? On a trip somewhere else? Or it doesn’t exist and it’s a replacement? (in which case, I’m sending rotten eggs to the writer’s head).
Then, it’s the calm moment of the episode, the rhythm slows down severely. We are bored a little inevitably … but some useful actions, he makes himself a bandage. His mother makes him drink a bowl (I’d be thirsty if I were him, so that’s cool).
35:50 – He goes to bed. WTF?! Where is the real adult SH in this timeline?! The one who should come home, walk into his room and say “Fuc!k man, who are you, what are you doing in my bed?”, followed by “OMG… but you are… how… argh… -FART”.
And the grid that doesn’t work then, what happens to it? How can all these people live on this heavenly earth in a heavenly villa?!
37:00 – It’s moldy… I really feel like SH traveler has replaced SH adult. The big car leaves with the family in it, the next morning. The housekeeper greets them. A suspicious character… I don’t like her weird dark glasses… If she is shown like this, it is necessarily suspicious…
37:25 – The car passes people with heat masks or something. Who are fighting. So the grid doesn’t work, but it doesn’t seem to have a crazy impact on the planet.
38:30 – Yeah, still… it’s doing damage. People are irradiated and burned (irradiated like that, they wouldn’t normally survive, but, see the rest…). So a big part of the population is suffering from the heat waves. Except those who have a heavenly villa. But the world has not stopped turning. And it doesn’t seem to have much impact on the buildings. The high-tech lab they visit is clean and perfect. We don’t know what they’re making here, but we’ll soon find out, anti-radiation tablets.
39:30 – Yeah!!! It’s confirmed. SH’s father found a treatment with “radioiodine” that saved the world! Well, the irradiated people.
It’s written in small letters under the family portraits. Fortunately, we are given the subtitle in big letters! Otherwise for the Korean viewers… haha, guys, you have to work your asses off to watch every little detail.
41:10 – Obviously, SH has time to live. We see him again at home. Then at the pool… The hypothesis of SH the adult traveler replacing SH the real one is confirmed… Shame! Shame! Shame! Tell me I forgot a detail that he is traveling somewhere else?!!!! Yes, but in that case, he would call to give news. And his parents would know. Shit!
42:40 – He meets the assassin… That we still don’t know what he is really for in the story and his relationship with the Ghost… He may not have killed anyone here. But we know he’s certainly a bad guy who could. He seems like a nice guy except…
43:18 – …Yeah, he’s a threatening motherf*ckers!!!
SH first pees his pants, then…he uses authority!!! Yeah man, you’re allowed, you’re the protagonist, you’ve already taken a science complex hostage with a gun, and on top of that you travel in time! The assassin checks him quickly… His predatory instincts tell him that he’s dealing with a more dangerous guy than he looks.
45:35 – SH goes to see what happened to the FL. Librarian. Her face is burned… a little less sexy than before, of course. Plus, deaf and blind. SH is going to have to fix that if he wants a little romance with her considering the face he’s making. Now I think it’s still possible, but when you travel in time, you might as well do it for the best… ^^
49:05 – A clock that says “20:30”. Back to the situation of the beginning but BEFORE (it was 20:40), SH takes the badge of his father… In his own way, SH decided to offer a bit of reconstructive surgery to everyone, especially FL. 🙂
The problem is that SH has been seen by a colleague of his father. He is a little too much in his outburst… When the guy recognizes him, he just walks away looking badass, like any hero. He doesn’t anticipate that he might meet his father next… Dude, this was not the time to play it cool in front of the camera!
Ok, the events follow logically…
50:55 – SH is typing on the computer. Just as stupid as the Ghost, he does not react when his father enters. Aggressive father, fight immediately. And ahahahahaha…. THE STAKE!!!! (how stupid is that!)
52:00 – Cliffhanger strong visually and because he kills his father but… weak in suspense, since we know that SH will simply go back in time. During the confrontation, we saw him put his hand in his pocket to try to use the time device.
Hi @WE, I see that you got some points I missed and I think I’ve got some points you missed.
Kwon Se Keun who looks exactly like Sae Ha (of course they are both played by Seo Kang Joon) is the REAL father of Sae Ha.
Sae Ha was adopted by a Kim family who were the rich people later.
Janitor also had a son who is not Sae Ha. See again the characters from Asianwiki to note the 2 different boys.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1X98I1swv_dG6jGbg0w_ensJkpIP_6bjV/view?usp=sharing
I’ve a funny feeling that the happenings of the original 2021 got messed up earlier when SH went back to 1997. We were only shown that the Janitor died in the lobby. But in the second 1997 we see Kwon was knocked out in the corridor and the Janitor was impaled in the Lab.
The Ghost as far as she knows is coming fresh, for the first time to 1997 to set up the Grid program. She only knows as per her instructions (I guess it comes to her phone) that she has to take the access card of Kwon Su Keun and get the program done. Strangely she is not briefed on hiding Kwon’s unconscious body (he was still alive). If she had done that simple thing before going into the Lab, she’d have had more than enough time to complete her program and leave. The Janitor would not have stopped to enter the Lab to call for an ambulance and seen her.
Yes, it was STUPID. Show is making the Ghost seem too dumb. Yes, she should have stopped what she was doing and incapacitated the Janitor instead of ignoring him. All that impalement problem was because she didn’t stop to knock the next person out instead of struggle with them.
The child Lee Si Won sees his Janitor father impaled. It was mainly because SH kept thinking of the boy’s distress, (he had more than once, the flashback of the boy witnessing the death of his father in the lobby) that he decided to change this history.
If SH had only stopped at this stage, his father (Kwon) would have been alive and the Grid would have been completed to keep the Earth safe. Only the Janitor would have died.
@GB, I think now I made a mistake about the Boy’s father. It was the janitor one.
Because that, I wrote an error when saying that the Ghost traveled an additional time.
The thing here, it’s we get a REVELATION (crazy complicated to spot) that since the beginning… the boy in the video wasn’t SH. And the guy killed was the Janitor. But when watching these video again and again, SH was just thinking “this poor janitor was killed in the hall as my father was killed too in the corridor”.
It’s serious and great good shit from the screenwriter, but damn… high level of confusion. I don’t know if I like it or dislike it, both at the same time.
@GB… Oh! Shit again… Now you just give something that contradict something I was thinking… Ok let’s resume… In what we see, the ghost act as the first time. But, in this case, why the Janitor is killed by the Antenna and not in the lobby?!! What changed so it’s not like that? SH changed something so it happens differently? But what? His encounter with the security guard at first? So the guard wasn’t in the hall? Or his encounter with the boy? But how? There is something weird here.
@GB, no, I get it now. SH’s father wasn’t killed in the corridor (here, he was just unconscious). SH’s father was killed by SH!!! And all this time, we was thinking the ghost killed his father. Aahahahah. So good irony. Quite great. And… I was expecting that since the first episode. But didn’t see it coming in the chronological continuity. So, I’m not sure now if SH can undo that or not.
Kalimera @GB Unnie,
I wanted to share the following because I don’t want any misconceptions about what I have said in the previous thread.
I don’t post anything on B.O.D. on challenging subjects, like this one, without reading an external source I need in order to be sure and to back up my hypotheses or theories. This is a habit that I have cultivated since my academia days. I need to read to understand first, in order to be sure what I thought seems valid and then write my hypothesis. In short, I use Sources to strengthen my points.
With that said, when I wrote my comment in the previous thread, I meant that the Grid is a protective shield that protects the Earth from the deterioration of our central Sun and the ramifications it could entail. IF only the phrase we heard from the Ghost is valid, aka “Time doesn’t flow.”
I love SciFi and Fantasy as genres very much, and SciFi is Science Fiction so in my case I want theories covered up from Science that I can read and give me additional information.
My favorite scifi show is Fridge and it shows a lot of things happening with a lot of science backing it up!
The reason that I said to @WEnchanteur that his hypothesis is not valid last night, not only from the theoritical approach, is that :
In Episode 7 we get to see that Newton’s Third Law of Action and Reaction is activated / happening in real time. So, Laws of Physics cannot be discarded in our hypotheses because that means that the logical part of the show won’t be easy to get. We would have questions and we do have questions, but the show after episode 7 goes to another road from what we have been seeing from the beginning.
(Link: https://www.britannica.com/science/Newtons-laws-of-motion/Newtons-second-law-F-ma )
SaeHa had his own motives and by saving his father, he altered reality.
He altered the space-time continuum. His action had a reaction. Hence Newton’s Third Law is working in this dramaverse.
SaeHa saved his father, but in the new timelime, a lot of people suffered and amongth them Sae-Byeok, who became deaf and got scarred, because the Grid was not activated. Hence his decision to go back again.
Because you are wondering about SaeHa. The Writernim trolled us.
Sae Ha was the son of the scientist Kwon Su Keun who died with from radiation, because the Ghost touched him with her device in ordre to enter the laboratory.
He was mentioned as a name and we got to see only photographs of his neck radiation marks. Nothing else.
The janitor’s arc was to fool us. All the time they were showing us about the janitor and his son. Sae Ha was not the sanitor’s son. SaeHa was not adopted. He lived with this mother who got sick after his father’s death because she had a hard life.
The Ghost killed the janitor because he was interfering when she was making the Grid. I believe just like SaeHa came back in 1997 at least 5 times, she did so twice. She came back and the janitor tried to stop her or something like that.
She had to sacrifice two people in order to save humanity. Was she right or wrong?
I guess that Sae Ha got an idea about it when he accidentally killed his own father. What is going to happen next? He has to build the Grid and to go back in his present time or before they kill Director Choi.
The thing is why do you think The Ghost “disappeared” the third time he met her? Because he altered the timeline and her birth. Action – Reaction.
@Cleo, so you think it’s like what I was considering first? The differences came because the ghost traveled twice? I was thinking that because there was a dialog from SH, saying something like “why did you came back to kill the janitor”. Now, I don’t know more about that… But get the main point.
I get it about your explanation why the Ghost desintegrate. And probably it’s that. I feel like I didn’t want it’s that. It’s the kind of circular logic I don’t like much in time travel story (back to the future like). Maybe the Ghost won’t be born in the next time line occurence. But she’s here now. These kind of thing create insolvable paradox.
I prefer logic like in Primer movie. If someone travel back and kill his father before to be born for example… Ok, there will be no father or a next self, but the traveler is here, coming from the previous timeline, and it can’t be undone. Or check the logic of Nine Time Travel, also more solid.
I feel like we enter in a mess with that. And additionnaly SH replacing SH. Damn. Sisyphus + TKEM in a more messy thing. For now the writer also avoid the situation “someone meet his previous self” (or self coming from another time travel). In one episode, Grid blow up everything!! I get the feeling to move from Scifi to fantasy at high speed.
So SH father died from radiation in first timeline?!
Ok now he die impaled. More stylish. Cartoonish even. 🙂
@Wenchanteur,
This is a guess of mine, mostly because the janitor’s death was cruel. It was out of the blue on the sequence of events that happened in that night in 1997.
We can say she went back twice or it could be more. So far the show doesn’t answer to “our” questions. Instead, Episodes 6+7 are directing our attention to a philosophical aspect.
Should a person choose to do a lesser evil in order to save many more?
Is it ethical acceptable?
Can we understand why he or she did so, even though some are affected by such a decision?
To answer your question it is not a mess, but it is not clear either.
Between Sisyphus and TKEM, I have to say that Kim Eun Sook had a team of scientists in order to explain her logical assumptions of time travel.
KES backed up her ideas with Science. I didn’t have a problem with her logical explanation. I have also read on the Internet from a Physics Student, that Lee Gon’s study was full with mathematician equations that explained time travel based on Quantum Physics.
Sisyphus used the the greek myth to build up its theory of eternal reccurence as Nietzsche discussed first.
I will say more on the logic of the show when I see how they will proceed next.
This is a Work of Progress for me!
That means that those who died in the first place, must die or someone else instead in order Balance to be restored!
All this is weird… the Ghost can teleport anywhere. For example in a pharmacy to get a product that puts you to sleep. Or find a hypodermic needle gun. Why would she need to kill people, when she can do it quietly? She saves the criminal too instead of preventing his crime…
For SH, it is understandable, it is an… unfortunate accident.
For the philosophical question… everyone will answer it in their own way. We see in the drama how the characters answer it for the antagonist game. A principle seen in many stories, the protagonist and the antagonist want the same thing but not in the same way. The Ghost doesn’t hesitate to put the goal before the means. And HS wants to use a fair means. Except that no luck for him…..
TKEM, I wasn’t talking in general, but about the fact that the hero replaces himself when he comes back to the present time, while his younger self grows up normally… in an episode that sweeps this under the carpet, it must have been the second last one in memory. No explanation… we pretend nothing happened.
Here’s a partial recap of Episode 7 to get my head straight, however not in chronological order of the show but according to the trips SH made …
@WE I too am not happy that Writer contradicts self. In (1997 Round 1) Kwon Su Keun spoke to his young son, boy Sae Ha on the phone while adult SH was somewhere in the Institute building.
That means that SH did not replace his younger self. Two different Sae Ha’s co-existed in 1997. But in (2021 Round 3) he seems to have replaced the adult Sae Ha.
The 1997 trips
(1997 Round 0) Only the Ghost time traveled and teleported. Janitor was electrocuted-burnt to death in the lobby in front of his son. Grid was set up and fine. SH seems to have lost his father. His mother becomes comatose. He’s out to catch the Ghost to change this.
(1997 Round 1) Sae Ha went to 1997. Child SH calls his father, Kwon Su Keun. Kwon gets knocked out by Ghost. Janitor gets impaled and his son sees him dead. Grid program was at 100%.
(1997 Round 2) Sae Ha gives Kwon’s access card to Ghost. Tells Ghost his sob story. Grid program was at 70%. Ghost disintegrates. SH tries to input the right figures. Janitor and son walked out of the building and no one was killed. With this change Ghost is the one affected. Grid program reverts to 0% and the Grid is not created. In 2005 the Solar Wind caused radiation burns that affected many, including Sae Byeok.
The 2021 trips
(2021 Round 1) SH enters the wrong house. Hears of a 2021 Charity Campaign on TV. Donation made to The Lee Unnam Foundation. “Mr Kim Man Seok, the chairman of Guryu Corp. 70 million won. … (I thought it was Kim Man Ok the killer who had donated the money!!!)
(2021 Round 2) The outdoor light has a strange reddish tinge and people are covered from head to toe plus with masks to keep out the radiation from the sun. SH finds that the building is now no longer the AB, but Woonhaeng Federation. Since his face and skin are unprotected, he gets burnt just standing in the open.
(2021 Round 3) SH finds out where he lives under the name of Kwon Sae Ha. His parents are alive and they manufacture pills that removes radioactive contamination using radioiodine. He remains for several weeks since his cut where the chip was implanted has healed.
He’s relatively happy to remain there indefinitely until he sees what has happened to Sae Byeok. Only then does he check the horrific repercussions of not having the Grid. He decides to return to 1997.
The 1997 last trip in Episode 7
(1997 Round 3) Sae Ha takes the lab coat of Kwon Su Keun. It is 8:32pm. One of his father’s colleagues mistakes him for his father. His father looks for his lab coat. He raises the alarm to call security.
Kwon tries to stop SH from entering the Grid program. Janitor hears them fighting in the Lab and comes in. SH ends up killing his father on the spike that’s just waiting to impale anyone. Janitor witnesses it.
There was a 2005 trip (2005 Round 1) SH went back to check if his mother, Kim Min Seon was working at the factory. He’s happy that she isn’t. I’m guessing that something she was exposed to at that factory caused her to become bedridden and unconscious.
In the process of being in 2005, he tries to help the factory workers keep safe from the Solar Wind.
@Cleo, The reason I think she’s his adoptive mother is because his surname changed from Kwon to Kim.
(2021 Round 0) – Sae Byeok and the Security Guy made a mistake, thinking that SH was the janitor’s son. They felt bad for him and took his side in getting him to the 13th floor. He totally changed the trajectory of (2021 Round 0) because he wanted to save specific individuals. What he thought was a little change had untold repercussions and horrific consequences for the whole country/world. I guess we can apply chaos theory and the butterfly effect here.
Now the series gets interesting since SH has to be intelligent enough to reverse what he can, while taking the losses/making the sacrifices that he must.
@GB, Wonderful chrono-recap where you broke your brain. 🤯
With corrections on some details. (like SH is not yet irradied, just heat)
I feel like the situation is all clear with the clues we have.
Dispite a few annoying choices of the writer and weird way to act for characters (I’m not hard on this, sometimes it need for them to be plot-tracted)… it makes the drama more exciting with a lot to comment. A strange way to have fun.
About the Spike, I seriously think it’s comedy on purpose. 🙂 🙂 🙂
LOL @WE, I’ll never look at antennae or spikes in the same way again!!! My companions will wonder why I chortle when I visit gardening/hardware stores, and pass by spike fences.
My Agapimeni @Cleo,
I was displeased by the Show’s way of ‘lying’ or tricking us (and SB) into thinking that SH was the Janitor’s son. I recall @packmule3 twice saying that it was something that got her fed up with other shows. The PD misrepresented the drama reality by editing or by slotting in flashbacks etc to create a false narrative.
That aside, I felt that it’s interesting that decisions were made based on the fact that the child Lee Si Won was present, and more… that Si Won actually saw how his father died each time. It was such a gruesome death, that all knew it would traumatise the child. This seems to have played a role in getting the adults to do what they did.
The Security Guy regretted his past mistake of letting Janitor bring his son to work in 1997. He continues to feel bad for the son in 2021. He let his emotions dictate his decision with Sae Ha, mistakenly thinking that SH was the Janitor’s son.
SB also supported SH in going after the Ghost because she believed he was Lee Si Won. If not for her help, SH might not have been able to get in to access the Ghost and her time travel devices. (I note that in an earlier episode, SH had denied that he was the boy in the video ie he had told the truth, but SB had not believed him.)
Sae Ha himself is affected by Lee Si Won. In his first return to 1997, (1997 Round 1), he decides to re-do history to prevent Si Won’s father from dying… and doing so in front of his son.
@Cleo I agree that the philosophical question(s) will arise about the deciding for the good of the few versus for the good of the many. Can it be considered a lesser evil?
Now that SH has effectively caused the Ghost to no longer make her appearance in 1997, he’s going to have to find a way to get the Grid up.
Options:
1) SH travels to 2110 or some time when the technology is ready (Ghost said she was born in 2091?), to bring back the Ghost or another Ghost or find out how to program the Grid.
2) SH figures it out on his own, ie he becomes the new Ghost.
3) SH returns to a past before the Ghost ever appeared and stays there ie he never returns to 2021, but grows old, doing nothing to fix anything. He has to let history take its course. The only problem is that history may have been so badly changed already, there may never be a way to fix things.
I’ve a feeling that Ghost deliberately killed SH’s mother in 2021, to get him to put the chip back into her. But she miscalculated because he decided to do the time traveling himself and spoilt the Grid’s development timeline.
@WE,
A possible answer to this is the 1997 mission to set up the Grid worldwide was her first mission. Hence her rigid persona. The more she has interacted with people the more she found out how to handle these things by not killing them, but by capturing them like the killer or by living them unconscious like the guard in the roof from AB.
Regarding your answer to TKEM you should find an answer I gave at the latest episode threads on TKEM about how the Hero in the ancient greek sense, aka Lee Gon was favorited by the God. Hence his memories were not affected.
For the same reason and because they sacrificed themselves both Tae Eul and Jo Young got the same treatment…. *winks*
Anneyong my agapimeni @GB!
It made your head to explode to capture all those timelines right?
I didn’t have a problem with it, but thank you for writing them for all those who are going to read our conversations.
Answering your comfusion how Kwon SaeHa became Kim SaeHa. I think that SaeHa wanted revenge on the Ghost so in order to become untraceable for the Bureau, he decided to take his mother’s maternal surname.
The most weird thing is that, the Security Guy didn’t remember him at all!
I mean seriously?
You see someone in 2021 who looks exactly as a dead researcher that you knew from the past (1997) and you are not curious at all, while you are working on security, to find out who he really is? For me this, if not explained is a plothole!
SaeHa was empathetic towards the janitor’s child because at that night, both children lost their fathers. I could say it was a connection they shared, even though they’ve never met!
I think that up until now, SB was brilliant. Both SB and the Security Guy were tricked to believe, the first one because he had regrets, the second one because she truly cared for SB that he was that traumatized boy.
I agree with you that when SaeHa already told to SB that he is not that child. We should have listened better when in the same episode Director Choi went to look for that boy and couldn’t find him. It was a red herring and we were tricked!
Regarding your options, my crazy mind has got this idea:
I think that The Ghost is like a trickster Goddess.
She knew all along about Kwon / Kim SaeHa and his quest and she made him take this journey / path instead of her, in order to understand that is not easy to be in a quest to save the world, if you cannot sacrifice something instead.
How did The Ghost go to SaeHa’s home in the first place?
If she was not aware that SaeHa was looking for her – then it doesn’t make sense.
She knew that SH was looking for her and she made that video on purpose to provoke him.
The unanswered question is why the Ghost monitored both Sae Ha and Sae Byeok to start looking for her. Sae Ha couldn’t manage to do what he did if SB was not there…
I am glad we can talk about this. At last, we have got something to talk about… LOL
My Agapimeni Cleo, yes, so nice to have something to talk about, to ‘sink our teeth into’ so to speak and to chew on it together LOL.
Yes, this is curious. The only ‘excuse’ he might have is that it was 24 years earlier and the big tragedy of the Janitor’s death may have distracted him from the smaller issue of Dr Kwon being knocked out/Dr Kwon and SH looking so identical.
Actually in the (2021 Round 0) timeline, I’m only assuming that what we saw in (1997 Round 1) took place. For all we know, Dr Kwon may not have been knocked out and the Ghost got hold of his access card some other way. Anyway either it’s a plot hole or Kwon was not such a big deal to Security Guy so he does not remember him.
Same thing with Manager Choi… she never recognised SH. She also only thought of the son of the Janitor very late in the series.
Another reason why SH changed his surname is that he wanted to get into the AB to be on hand to catch the Ghost. Perhaps with the surname, Kwon, he felt he’d trigger too many memories and increase the background checks on him. Being a great hacker, he probably hid his real identity well, before applying to the AB.
I realise that we’re assuming that SH’s father died from the burns to his neck. Was it reported as there being another death, and from the same time as the Janitor’s death?
Yes, I like SB a lot. She used so much common sense, good old fashioned police work and brilliant thinking to catch Kim Man Ok. But even she fooled herself into thinking SH was Si Won. Mgr Choi not being able to find Si Won is interesting… which adult might he be? Will he turn up again?
Agree that Ghost knew in advance and all her moves with regard to SH and SB were planned. With no one else did she do the things that she did with them.
The reason you raise for getting SH to do the time travel is novel for this Show.
This brings in the concept of wanting to teach just 1 person something, which although not impossible, I find hard to accept.
This kind of reason involved a very big decision to allow many monumental mistakes. We have seen no clue that Ghost has any attitude of being like a mentor/sunbae who’s out to help a mentee/hoobae find his path.
At the moment, I agree that the most likely reason she got
IE. she wanted them to meet each other over searching for her and Kim Man Ok. They are meant to do something that they can only manage as a team.
Side note: Will you be able to do the ‘W’ rewatch on Saturday or the ‘Business Proposal’ rewatch tomorrow?
@GB Unnie,
If you remember two episodes ago, in the 14th floor, all the items regarding The Ghost were there. Video tapes with CCTV and interviews from the incident, the autopsy reports and other things.
The Security guy couldn’t remember because it was that long, but they had taken pictures from the incident in the 1997 timelime. They should have that id card somewhere…
Yes, the 1997 incident had two victims. One of them was the scientist Kwon and the other one the janitor.
We only got to see the radiation marks in SaeHa father’s neck. It was also the only thing that Sae Byeok got to see as well in the incident files when she was searching the Police database. So, the pictures from the scene were there, but *deliberately* we didn’t see the scientist aka Kwon’s face from the 1997 incident.
Was Director Choi involved with SaeHa’s dad?
Do you remember when Dir. Choi said to Jong Yi – if I remember correctly – in the past the scientists looked down on them because they were doing secretariat work!
True about SaeHa’s changing his surname. They will propably missed the connection on the Bureau. Even though it was there somewhere, Sae Ha could erase the file!
I really like SB as well. I do hope we will get to see again in a restored 2021 timeline being a bad ass police officer again. I mean the SB we know from Episodes 1-7.
Dunno, it was just a thought, we are 3 episodes before the ending. They have to give us a logical explanation before they wrap this! IMO, SH and SB’s synergy is not random.
Sidenote: Tomorrow I won’t be able to do the rewatch. I am trying to attend on Saturday though!
@Cleo, OK. I look forward to reading you more and especially on Saturday!! 🙂
@Cleo… But… we’ve suspected the security guard all along and think he has his own agenda… and even that he might be an agent working for people from the future. Let’s take it another way before we get to the plot hole:
He recognizes SH from the beginning (that’s why he seems so suspicious). And this is part of the plan. He has to help SH when the time comes (when he goes back to the past). And even the Ghost encourages SH to go back to the past. The Ghost or someone else. Who sends the video to SH with the Ghost injecting his mother? At this point the Ghost is captured, so it’s not her. Security man?
However, even so, there is another problem… SH also has the information. That means… He knows that the security man is on the video, that he knew his real father. So SH also knows from the beginning that the security man should recognize him…. ahahaaa, even if we want to avoid the plot-hole, I feel like we’ll fall into it. Damn!
Why are these two guys acting like they don’t know each other?
Or maybe we need some amazing dialogue later.
– I knew it was you.
– So did I, and I knew you knew.
– I also knew you knew I knew.
– I knew it too.
@WE Bravo! Bravo!!! The dialogue to beat all dialogues and remove the plot hole!!! Or make it so big we all fall into it! LOLOL.
@WE & @GB,
I was not suspecting the Security Guy, although he was also on my radar.
After watching Episode 7, I think that he knew that SH knew that he knew! LMAO!
Hi there my dear @Cleo, yes, we know what we know, and we believe the characters know who knows what they know. LOL I wonder if they know that they have acted on mistaken knowledge!!! 😅 😂 🤣 🤪
@GB Unnie
L M A O !!! 😆😆😆😆😂😂😂
Yesterday a friend of mine was so that shocked that she wanted to drop it! They destroyed it she told me! I tried to calm her down by pinpointing our reaction to it: First we discussed the Law of Physics, then we discussed the Plot and in the end we decided to take it lightly. Should I even add silly? 😂😂😂
Sheesh… @Cleo… your friend was upset because of the twist with SH’s character?
@GB
She thinks that up until Episode 6 the whole show had a meaning and with Episode 7, it was lost.
I don’t feel the same about it, but I can sympathize with her.
Mostly because in the first half there was not action. The Writernim decided that in the first part we would be acquainted with the characters more. We have no action happening at all and the viewers are guessing about them. In reality we didn’t know anything about their (true) motives.
In the second half they chose to go with that unexpected plot twist and action taking place in an accelarating pace, so let’s say we have nausea at the moment…
I found a 3th potential plot-hole on episode 7.
If the time travel use circular logic (paradox, time buble, etc). What does SH in the past change the future, so the Ghost won’t be born (could be the criminal her father, it’s why we see him in the episode, otherwise, it’s an useless scene).
As the Ghost won’t be born in the future… The ghost desintegrate… ONLY… if she desintegrate now, what is her first time travel (or one of the first)… She won’t exist, she won’t do any time travel, so she won’t be captured by the Bureau, so SH won’t get the device. SO… SH should desintegrate too, or at least, disapear because he can’t be here. This kind of time travel never work well…
@WE, Yes, the logic of going back into the past to change something seldom can work. We would have negated the circumstances which brought about our present. I find travel into the future much more plausible.
@Cleo, Ah, your poor disillusioned friend. I hope she can enjoy the twisty action now from Ep 7 til the end.
Hey everyone, I caught up on this. I like ep 7 better.
@GB thanks for summarising the versions. I think I got this message and thinking about @Cleo’s points. Who should die? In between versions, people are bound to die as collateral damage, not matter how many times we try. If we save someone like the janitor and SH’s father, most people are going to suffered. Even SH can’t accept that.
Really @WE, is there some romance between SB and SH? You pointed out SH’s face. I guess there is a case there. He didn’t look for Ms Choi. The first person he looked for after his parents are SB. Hmm…
I would guess the same reason for Killer Kim to stay alive. He mustn’t die in order for the bigger picture. If he dies, something must go wrong.
@WE your recap is very funny! lollol. This is indeed a plot hole. Why do they not tie the the device on the neck or strapped it more securely! haha!
Is the security guy’s existence just for allowing SH and SB enter the forbidden floors?
@Viva, I don’t know if there will be romance, but as I remember the episode: SH live quietly for a while, but it’s when he sees SB face he decide to return in the past.
What an episode! I will write more tomorrow!
@WE and @GB Unnie, we got our anticipated moment “I knew (!) that I knew you from somewhere before” ! LMAO!
Kalimera Everyone,
So Episode 8 brought everything back to “normal”. Before I write more let’s differentiate the timelines:
The first timeline we were shown from Episodes 1-6, let’s call it Timeline #1.1. (T.#1.1 for short.)
Τhe new one that was created after Episode 8 with some slight differences, let’s call it Timeline #1.2. (T.#1.2 for short)
Before I write my thoughts, in Timeline #1.1, AB’s major doesn’t care if he kills people as long the device is secured! *facepalm*
The first casualty was Director Choi and then Song EuJin. SaeHa gives backs to the ghost the chip to control the device and in result, the Ghost saves both SaeHa and Sae-Byeok and takes them to reality #1.2. with them both having intact the memories from the erased T.#1.1.
In Timeline #1.2:
1. The Grid is up.
2. SaeHa’s mom was not in life support, but alive and kicking.
3. SaeHa’s surname was Kwon and not Kim as in the previous timeline.
His father was awarded pusthumously for making the Grid.
Administrative Bureau still knows that the Ghost made it though and they still looking for her.
Director Choi, who Saeha mom’s calls “viper”, came and gave employment to Kwon SaeHa. Both her and EuJin are alive in T.#1.2.
4. Sae Byeok experienced the same regrests as SaeHa did when he was trying to save someone and had to kill another. She also was extremely shocked and shaken by the death of EuJin in T.#1.1.
5. Still Kim Manok killed that man and they were looking for him. In T.#1.2 he also killed that cleaning lady when he escaped his prison made by the Ghost.
Between T.#1.1 and T.#1.2, we were also given the answer to WHY the Ghost help Kim Manok. *drums roll*
Kim Manok is… the janitor’s son. None of us made the connection before!
SaeHa realized that as well, when he saw him in that alley with the burnt eye, while he was timetravelling to chit chat with the Ghost.
The mystery that we haven’t answers yet is:
WHY the Ghost involved Kwon SaeHa and Jung Sae-Byeok in her quest?
As Saeha monitored his younger self and his mother after his father’s demise, it seems the Ghost did the same for Kim Manok and Kwon SaeHa. She feels regrets for altering the lives of those two kiddos. I can emphathize with her.
As for Jung Sae Byeok? Why? This is the answer we are looking for now.
P.S. How that helps @GB Unnie!
My Agapimeni @Cleo, thanks! How nice to see such a succinct summary of Ep 8. I find that T#1.2 has a lot to recommend it. Someone always has to die, and this time it was the Cleaner.
Yes, it seems that Kim Man Ok (named Lee Si Won as a child) was the boy who witnessed his father’s death. It was a trauma that possibly has contributed to him killing quite easily, at the slightest provocation. This, then, begs the question (again) about why the Ghost had to kill the Janitor. In what way was him being alive a threat to the Grid? The Ghost said something about the way she did it was the only way she knew how, … as if the Janitor had to die in every timeline.
If he could have lived or not been killed in front of Kim Man Ok/Lee Si Won, then the present timeline would have been different. If Kim did not go around killing, the Ghost would not have been found. Killing the Janitor in front of the son is one of the past wrongs that should be set right.
In the in between timeline, SH asks the Ghost : “What must I do? What must I do to change the outcome? You know the answer.”…”If I save someone’s life, the Grid disappears. And if I try to change that …You must know another way.”
G : “I don’t….I did it because it’s the only way I know.”
SH : “So this is it?”
Ghost disappears. SH follows her down to the road where she texts Kim Man Ok directions to hide.
G : “Don’t try to change anything.”
SH : “I teleported many times, but I’m fine. I’m talking about your damaged DNA. You’re not sick. You’re perishing.” (SH seems to have made a leap from thinking that teleporting had upset Ghost’s DNA to believing that she was dying but for another reason.)
G : “Thanks to you I got much better.” (We have to wait and see what she means by this.)
SH : “Does the janitor have to die for you to live? Then what about my father?…No, right? You just needed an ID for the lab, didn’t you?”
Ghost sighs : “That’s what I thought.” (So this may mean that she did try more than once to just get his dad’s Access Card without hurting him, but found that he had no choice but to electrocute him.)
SH : “You even burned a man to death before his child’s eyes. Do people in the future have no conscience? Don’t you feel sorry for the victims?” (We imagine that she felt sorry for Lee Si Won/Kim Man Ok and that’s why she’s saving him now.)
Ghost scoffs : “A lot of people died during the Joseon Dynasty. Is that heart-breaking too? What are you waiting for? go save those people. Only then you can call yourself conscientious.”
SH : “You wouldn’t have gone this far if it were not for the Grid. This must be to save your own skin. You’re going around ruining everything just to save yourself.” (I feel that here, SH is grasping at straws to make her reveal more. She was committed to setting up the Grid, but we do not see her taking any special care of herself. So SH’s blind accusation is probably wrong.)
G : “You’re the one ruining everything. Stay out of this.
SH witnesses how the police missed Kim Man Ok but how SH went back and got him but Ghost stopped her. The Kim Man Ok who ran up and saw SH had only one good eye. The right eye socket had the imprint of the shape of the device that SH was holding when he had accidentally hit Lee Si Won in the right eye.
He returns to May 18, 1997 once again and lets the timeline T#1.2 take place.
My Ad Hoc Thoughts
In the opening credits, SH is shown momentarily in a hood, looking like the Ghost, and we find now that he was the pseudo Ghost for a short time.
While the real Ghost was able to do a reset, and at the same time let SH and SB retain their memories, SH was only able to manipulate his teleporting in single sequences of time, during which he upset the order and created more of a mess than ever each time. He was not able to both save his father while also ensuring that the Grid was built.
The big difference in T#1.2 is that it seems to be generally believed that Kwon Su Keun built the Grid. So if the AB are hunting for the Ghost, do they only want her teleportation technology? Do they not realise that she has the key to the Grid?
In the ‘new’ 1997, SH tries to take over the role of the Ghost by stopping the Janitor from leaving. Ghost gets hit by the Janitor and she seems to be dissipating a bit (ashes or bits of her seemed to be floating about her). SH stopped the Janitor again, to kill him, but the Ghost manages to get up to do the killing anyway, saving SH from having to do it. She gives him a side-eyed look, knowing that he would not be able to do it.
Young Kim Man Ok/Lee Si Won looks at both SH and Ghost but it’s not clear if he saw who actually killed his father.
Out in the lobby, Lee Si Won cries and in the lab SH holds on to his dead father and cries as well. He manages to resist the urge to go back in time yet again to prevent his death. And so we have T#1.2 that continues to the new present day.
It’s touching that SH tries to reduce the bad impact of the deaths in 1997 by telling the Security Guy that none of the deaths or the boy’s trauma was his fault. He then goes to comfort his own young self to get his 9-year old self to change his attitude towards his mother. He even leaves her a brochure on seeking help for depression to encourage her to stop drinking to excess.
When he returns to his present, it is still T#1.1, but instead of seeing him implanting the chip, Eo Jin and SB seem him removing it from his arm. SB immediately understands that he had teleported and returned.
(I’m still not happy about how he always replaces his adult self but never himself as a child. That bit of logic will never be explained.)
I’m wondering when and how SH had something explosive in hand that set off the alarm in the AB. He hands something over to the Security guy. Interestingly, the T#1.2 line has changed so that Security Guy suddenly has a different past and he remembers seeing SH some over 20 years previously. SH happens to be in the same suit.
In T#1.2 SH’s mother tells him not to trust Choi unreservedly. However even in T#1.1, SH was spying on Choi, as if he already knew that she was not to be trusted. However, we do not know why SH never trusted her.
Funny scene – This episode/show is so serious and gripping that a funny scene almost seems out of character for it! Jong Yi and Eo Jin, in the car with Mgr Choi in the backseat, argue about SH doing whatever he wanted because he had Connections that got him the job. And all this time while they spoke, the Connection, Mgr Choi was listening to them with that ‘look’ on her face. LOL. She remarks that they too seemed to fear nothing.
Knowing that in T#1.1 both Choi and Eo Jin had died, SB treats them differently. While previously she’d resisted helping the AB, she now cooperates; however she retains a sample of the evidence for herself.
SB is also nicer to Eo Jin, which encourages him to be more chatty with her. While she sees to the bereaved husband of the Cleaner, Eo Jin gets food delivered to him. However it’s noteworthy that Eo Jin does not trust SB entirely, since he watched to see which way she drove after she let him off.
Kim Man Ok has nightmares after committing murder. He feels as if the Cleaner and the Ghost are looking at him accusingly. He seems to remember in his dream, that he had seen SH at the time when he was the child, Lee Si Won. He screams when he imagines Ghost attacking him, the way she attacked his father. However, as a child, he had been looking at SH while his father was being killed by Ghost.
Strange – We hear twice that SH has an uncle. We hear that this uncle told 9-year old SH’s mother that his father had been electrocuted. However mum says that SH’s uncle found it strange that it was claimed Kwon had died of over-work. So is the uncle the same person or 2 different men? Why does his mother not mention the electrocution?
I don’t know what SB is referring to when she says : “Why does someone else die every time I save someone?” – I don’t recall anyone dying because of her. The restaurant lady was knocked out but not killed. When did she save someone and another person die?
Why did SH tell young SH that the light was blue so he could cross… it is internationally a green walking man sign. Did something happen to him so that the green light appeared blue?
I’ll read later, but just something quick:
In the new timeline, Kim Manok have lost an eye. So why we see him with his eye ok at the end of the episode?
Else, funny: The writer anticipated our “the ghost is stupid, she could hide the body”, and then she does it in the new timeline at the start of episode. ^^
Else, it’s a mess about how the people replace themselves or not. I’m not sure what time is it when SB comes back on the worksite. Also, when SH give a letter to his mother, so she will heal from depression.
The concept of time is a bit weird. One small event (butterfly effect) is enough to change all. So, events shouldn’t happens like the first time, when the ghost and SH meet regularly in space time (scene when one eye Manok hides under the car). Or we have to accept this is a time concept where… Time always try to reproduce in the same way when possible.
Also, it’s not logical that when they come back at the same point (or almost), they don’t meet themselves when they create the grid. It should be something like that:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CII_Q2aXa-k
🙂
Hi @WE Thanks for that link to the clip… yes… that’s what I expected too. There should have been 2 SH’s going about in his own past timelines. What a mess it would have been. He should have seen himself when he came back.
I too wondered about the version of Kim with 1-eye. It was immediately after seeing 1-eyed Kim that SH returned one more time to 1997. This time he allowed his father to die and almost killed the Janitor (but the Ghost did it again), while young Kim Man Ok stood there and did not get hit in the eye. So this is the T#1.2 timeline with THIS Kim growing up with both his eyes in tact.
@GB, thanks, I made a memory inversion.. After watching, I put the last time return before the one-eye when it was after.
We have confirmation the SH time travel was a scam from the Ghost who made things to motivate SH to do that (fake assassination of his mother). But later, the Ghost say to him… “don’t do anything, you make things worse”.. Weird. But I have an hypothesis about that now:
Maybe the ghost just look for the best person to replace herself in the Time travel missions. So, it’s like a initiation for SH. She looks for someone enough wise to not mess with time, but still able to makes hard decisions. It’s what hapenned to SH here. Before he wanted to save some people, and in the end, he understand he can’t save everyone.
2 episodes left. Probably we’ll get some answers about all that, and the situation from the ghost come. But I don’t expect too much. And probably the writer will never give any explanation about all the time travel concept holes.
For now it’s not good Sci-Fi. Too much holes about SF concept. Still good screenwriting and investigation logic, and some nice adrenalin moments in the episodes 6, 7, 8.
@WE, @Cleo, my Guess … I’m tending to think that it might be a simple case of the Ghost is dying, and is looking for a successor. She may have hedged her bets by trying out both Sae Byeok and Sae Ha to see who would be the better candidate.
Where the Grid is concerned, though … no one in 2021 knows how to fix it, should it fail. Therefore it might be better that the Ghost brings in a person with the knowledge or trains SH.
The Writer has so far tackled real life topics (business or investigation) and this is her first foray into sci-fi/fantasy.
I’d like to see where the Grid is actually important to the plot, other than that it was something the Ghost built to save the Earth. As far as the rest of the story goes, the Grid could be happily ignored without it mattering at all.
Kalimera @WE and @GB,
@WE, I agree with @GB Unnie, that The Ghost went back another time to erase SH’s involvement with Lee SiWon / Kim Manok. Hence, we got to see only SaeHa talking to his younger self and leaving his mother that depression leaflet.
Regarding why we are watching one version of SaeHa going back in time. It is like this version with the time travelling device overcomes all the others in the past or future. I link this with what “Sisyphus” taught us about one version / matter / energy that absorbs the other making one of everything.
I agree with you saying that The Ghost did that to test how SaeHa will react / respond to all this. I am not that sure if she wants a successor or someone to feel her regrets in what she thinks is right to do / did, in order to save humanity.
Since is a possible scenario and a viable one, we should keep it fow now.
We need to see why is Sae Byeok involved though? Why did the Ghost pick her?
Is she vital to SaeHa somehow? If they are both her successors, that would be a possible answer.
Now that I have read you, I think what we see is a gigantic time loop with the Ghost visiting and revisiting the past before she perishes.
@GB Unnie, I agree. About the Grid, noone has mustered how to make it in the first place or how to fix it.
So, should we focus on the philosophical aspects at hand?
Still, we have some questions, we want the Writernim to answer to us:
Why the Ghost’s DNA is failing? What is wrong with her?
@Cleo,
I thought of that too… I’m not sure if it works for everything, but at least in the scene at the beginning in 1997.
When SH gets here…it’s like it’s pristine from any changes made before. So it just goes back to the original scene. Except that this principle doesn’t work afterwards, he arrives in a modified future before.
Or the time device is able to choose the timeline of arrival, not just the place and time.
I don’t see how this concept possible for a single person manages to combine with someone else afterwards, which can change (or not) according to the temporal circumstances. In this episode 8, we have the impression that the Ghost and SH have become a bit friends… They meet at different times, then come back almost “together” on the situation of 1997 (even if they don’t arrive together strictly speaking).
@WE,
We should call them friends. They have come to share a mere understanding.
SaeHa has realized that his father’s death is a sacrifice needed in order for humanity to be saved while installing the Grid.
I like more your thought the time device to be able to choose the timeline of arrive and not just the place and time because it strengthes what I have written in my last comment about a gigantic time loop that someone THE Ghost or/and SAEHA or/and someone else returns to the year 1997.
If that is the case, what I have written all along makes sense.
Humanity ends because our central sun becomes more unstable hence our galaxy is in problem, so the Ghost returns back in time in a time loop to live more?
Is the Ghost deteriorating because the planet ends at one point?
It is a possible scenario…
@Cleo,
I will be a bit pessimistic, and just say the % of things we get the answer at the end.
10%.
Make your bet. 🙂
Hey @Cleo @GB and @WE
Thanks for the clip @WE , that clip was funny!
What makes it complicated is that the Ghost must have went through many trials and errors to work out she must pretend to kill Seha’s mum to trigger Seha to go back. What a tiring life!!! There means there are many timelines in between erased. We saw Seha teleported at different exit points to chit chat with the Ghost. I guess we can say they were in the erased timelines, between T#1.1 and T#1.2.
I noted the Ghost can’t teleport anymore. She was dying, but she isn’t anymore. Something must have changed in T#1.2 for her to stay longer than then previous erased/replaced versions. She said thanks to Seha. We may not get all the answers, but I hope we will get this one in the remaining episodes. Someone sent the ghost messages, who would that be? Seha? SB? from the future?
The writer has successfully gave me two plot twists that I didn’t anticipate. Seha and Kim Ma-nok’s fathers. What probably confused me is Seha and Manok age difference. The actor playing Seha is 28 and the actor playing Manok is 41. In the flashback those boys looked like they are similar in age to me. Of course rough life can age Manok but may be the writer uses this to cleverly tricked me.
Put the SF concept/logic aside (too hard for the mental gymnastics to make it work, isn’t it?), if I tried to work out the message of this story, it’s probably telling us that no matter how hard we try to change history, someone has to pay the price. How to determine who should pay? Now Seha’s mum is not in the comatose state (is the writer trying to say she is as good as dead?), the cleaner died. Whose life is worth more? The poor husband has no chance to change that fate, unlike Seha. Is that the message? That the old, the one lesser knowledge, have a lesser chance to change their fates? Changing the world may sound noble, but in reality, are only the well-educated, resourceful people who can do it. Is Equality better achieved, compared to Joseon?
@Viva
Taking the logic of there being many timelines erased,
– My guess is that at a certain time, when SH took away the teleporter device from the Ghost, it affected the 1997 time and resulted in her dissipating or threatening to dissipate when SH was there. However when SH’s intention changed to deciding to return the device to her, that event of her dissipation receded in the timeline and she regained her old strength.
As long as she didn’t dissipate and had her device with her (plus the chip in her arm), she was still able to teleport.
I think that’s an interesting suggestion … the one sending messages to the Ghost might be a future SH or SB. What a loop and twist!
@GB, Ahh right. So this may be the final version, like in Sisyphus we saw the final version of their loops (if we interpret their endings that way, by the way my interpretation of Sisyphus ending has changed after watching the Red Sleeve – No more loop. TaeSul is dead to stop the loop and that was his state of mind forever).
Around timestamp 42:30 the Ghost seemingly pressed the shell looking equipment, with a red line appeared and disappeared. I interpreted as she tried to teleport but couldn’t but I am not sure. She may want to correct the cleaner’s death but unable to?
With 2 episodes left, they still have to explain:
1.Time travel
2.How to build the grid
3.Who is ghost
4.Who are the ones sending the messages
5.Why Seha said the crossing signal is blue? Which country has crossing signal blue? Is he from a different world?
6.Don’t tell me guilt is the reason why she lets him kill people?
@Viva
Ah, I see… you interpreted the device showing red lights that disappeared with the Ghost not teleporting as she could not teleport. I interpreted it as she CHANGED HER MIND about teleporting.
She looks thoughtful, took out the device and looked at it in her hand, lets the device go dark and continues to look thoughtful. IE she did not get upset that she could not teleport, but it looked more like she decided not to change the new trajectory to get Man Ok back in her lock up. She looked at the shoe of the Cleaner that had been left behind. (Possibly it occurs to her, that this time the Cleaner dies, but if she resets events again, it will not be clear who dies).
Wow thanks for bringing all the questions together! I believe we may only get answers for 3. and 4. So much we’d like to know but we may have to end up making our own best guesses. 😉
Hi @pkml3,
Pl open up a thread for the final two episodes 9 and 10.
🍪 🥛 🍪 🥛 🥐 ☕ 🍌 🍉
@pkml3, I trust you’re just busy and all’s well with you, since you normally respond within half a day. I kind of expected the auto-opening of a thread for Grid around 12 midnight, your time.
Catch you later!
Episode 9 was great. Connections fall in place and some of our questions are answered.
I’m currently in ep 09… 10′ minutes. 😉
Anneyong!
I have finished watching Episode 9. I am glad that some of my hypotheses were right!
Even better some of our questions were answered as well!
I have to say I am anxious about Saeha… 😳
@Cleo, ahahaha! Me too! Not for being to much presomptuous but… I guessed some things before. Proof on the threads! lololol! I’ll comment the episode later.
As I predicted, more about family stuff than say why there is “two version of the people merging” but whatever, it was still a nice episode, just because for once, the writer chose to stop to be confusing. Just make it clear and build good mind-blowing scenes and plot-twist, that’s all!!!